BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?

Subject: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 03:27 PM

I am pretty low-carb these days but not that high-fat. Just wondering if any of y'all had experiences to relate, and didn't want to bury the inquiry in the recipes thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 04:20 PM

Could you include a brief description of a/the Keto diet?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 04:58 PM

It works well for some serious conditions, like some seizure disorders. Hard to follow and awful side effects. Not something to try because a friend saw a magazine article about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 05:35 PM

Isn’t it very much like the Atkins Diet?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 06:09 PM

Atkins is a form of keto.

Keto = very high fat, medium protein, very low carb diet. The idea is to make the body turn fat into ketones to burn instead of sugar.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:00 PM

Hi Mrrzy,

I have only ever heard that the keto diet could have serious medical risks if it is being used to lose weight.

Harvard Health Letter
Should you try the keto diet?

I would not compare it with the Atkins diet which focuses on lower carb intake and higher protein. The keto diet focuses on lower carbs but high fat intake. To me it is counter-intuitive and makes no nutritional sense compared with healthy eating plans which focus on increasing vegetables,fruit, healthy grains and legumes and low fat protein.

My fave is the CSIRO healthy eating plan

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:09 PM

You should always aim for a balanced diet. If you eat too much meat, you have to eat too much dessert to maintain the balance.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:25 PM

Survey article on use in psychiatry

Bottom line: fuck all use, except for seizures.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 07:43 PM

Mostly just buy ingredients, the best quality you can afford, organic or at least high-welfare, and mostly cook your food from scratch (and buy some bags of pasta). Eat a lot of veg and mostly avoid ultra-processed foods and mostly don't grab takeaways or ready meals. Mostly. And stop fannying around with fad diets that do nothing for you but which make fortunes for the twats who come up with them.

I said mostly. Which means I love the occasional pizza takeaway or fish supper. Why not. We are lucky westerners, so let's enjoy life. You're only doing it wrong if you notice that you're getting a bit fat, or if you look in the mirror and notice that the whites of your eyes have gone yellow. Do try to notice...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 13 Feb 21 - 11:50 PM

I follow it loosely and not closely enough or I would be dropping weight...I pretty much maintain. If it is what your body needs, it is very healthy. If it is not, it would not be healthy. I personally thrive on fats and do very poorly on starchy carbs. Have your insulin levels..as well as your blood sugar..measured. You can have all the green vegetables you want. It is not at all hard to follow if that is what your body needs and I personally have no side effects. If you eat the wrong foods for your body type, of course you will have a hard time. If you have high insulin levels and/or are diabetic, nature is telling you to reduce empty carbs..not vegetables. Fruits..not in excess and it depends. If there are good doctors recommending it for SOME people in your area, pay them a visit. There are many people thriving, losing weight, lowering their blood sugar, etc. It is not for everyone. Neither is a high rice diet right for everyone. Depends on your metabolism. But you can at least get rid of starchy carbs and see how that does.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: BobL
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 02:50 AM

An interesting article in New Scientist last year suggested that, essentially, hunger is tied mainly to the consumption of protein: if your diet is protein-rich you tend to eat less overall, if it's protein-poor you eat more and hence overdo the carbs and fats. This is somewhat theoretical - it hasn't been rigidly tested, but it seems to make sense. Trouble is that protein's pricey, carbs & fats are cheap.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 04:18 AM

I have an ex-colleague friend in the US who follows the Keto regime, and also a very strict exercise/activity regime. She is as fit as a flea, a magnificent physical specimen, and she swears that the Keto diet is the key to her very obvious well-being.

But I find the idea of huge amounts of fat and protein simply dreadful. I’m always aware when I’ve eaten fat- and protein-heavy meals because I feel heavy, sluggish, and devoid of energy, and for several hours afterwards I feel on the point of chucking-up.

I guess Keto would suit some people, others not so much. I believe I’m in the latter group, and I try to stick with Steve’s recommended ‘balanced’ diet (which is also the diet recommended for diabetics by Diabetes UK, the official association for diabetics in the UK).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: JHW
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 05:42 AM

Balanced diet means a pie in each hand?

N.B. NHS ad in this thread says 'Check your risk with our 30 second quiz'.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 05:50 AM

”Balanced diet means a pie in each hand?”

What planet do you come from? On Planet Backwoods it’s a pie in one hand and a pint in the other! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 09:06 AM

My psychiatrist brought it up as I have noticed that complex carbs disrupt my mental health. Apparently not just epileptics but bipolar folks can benefit.

I pretty much eat no carbs now that aren't an element of a vegetable. If I do, the next day I am emotionally labile. Even given up my usual daily 7 m&ms or other small amount of chocolate.

However I am *not* getting most of my calories from fat, though I cook with olive oil and butter (grass-fed and lots of it). I eat meat, veg that aren't starchy, and almonds. I do put splashes of fruit juice in my seltzer. Fried is ok, but not breaded.

I feel fine, healthy and even-tempered.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 09:27 AM

That survey article said there wasn't enough evidence to show it helped bipolar disorder.

It's got much harder to get good information on this sort of thing than it used to be - the shills have too much of an interest in SEOing their hype and the people with the real scoop want to be paid big money for it. But there are so many obvious negatives to this one it has to be a last resort.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 11:22 AM

A balanced diet is surely a treacle pudding in each hand!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 11:35 AM

Not great for a diabetic, Bonz! Mind you, neither is a pork pie! And I haven’t used alcohol since 20th December, 2005, so....

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 11:46 AM

It's worth remembering (sayeth the cynic) that all published diets are designed to fail. The first universally successful diet would spell the end of the lucrative diet book industry. We can't have that now, can we! I feel fine when I eat my own cookery. And I mean cookery, starting from scratch with quality fresh ingredients, not sticking a pizza on an oven shelf for ten minutes (which I do occasionally). A couple of days of takeaways or ready meals and I don't feel so good. For me, that's the clue. Investing in my own efforts in the kitchen helps me to control both the quality and quantity of what I eat. Nothing's perfect. I love cheese in all its manifestations, for example. And eggs. In the last 36 hours I've consumed six eggs. I need to shed a stone (I can tell, because all my shorts are a bit tight...), but my guts are good and I feel fine. I can't ever see me living in the permanent misery of daily weighing or calorie-counting.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 12:22 PM

There are other kinds of diet than weight reduction ones. A PKU diet or one for G6PD is *not* designed to fail.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 12:52 PM

OK, Jack, those are diets based on clearly-defined medical needs. I meant fad diets in books that are intended to sell in the millions to a gullible public.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 01:52 PM

Sorry Mrrzy, when you said "diet" I thought you meant weight loss diet.

It sounds like it is working for you. It's good when you get immediate feedback if you eat something that doesn't suit your body's needs.

I don't eat many processed carbs except for a slice of wholewheat bread now and then. I get most of the carbs from vegetables and I try to add legumes to the meals I cook, e.g. making vege or salmon patties using crushed chickpeas or butter beans etc instead of mashed potato, or using red lentils to thicken stews, or making black bean burger patties instead of meat patties. I eat meat but not every day. I don't stick to any specific diet but when I lose weight I tend to keep it off so I seem to have found a good healthy eating plan which works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 01:58 PM

And you might be able to work out a chocolate-type fix by using carob. I have made chocolate brownies using processed almonds instead of wheat flour. It would work with carob instead of chocolate although it would need something to hold the mix together to replace the gooeyness of the melted chocolate. I've also seen recipes using crushed kidney beans or black beans instead of crushed almonds or wheat flour.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 04:19 PM

Carob is inedible to me, and I tried! The weird thing is, I am not craving anything.

And yeah, we need a word for diet that doesn't imply weight-loss. Oops.

I wonder how much of my mental illness getting better wasn't so much the 3 weeks in the loony bin as the 3 weeks eating nothing but salads, because the food was so bad.

And it doesn't seem to be a wheat thing, with me. Taters, rice, rye bread... it all inhibits my next day's equanimity. I experimented.

Sugar, as in dessert, makes my right hand shake the next day, but my temper is ok. It is the *complex* carbs that come back and bite me in my mental ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 04:41 PM

Well, Mrrzy, it seems to me that you have had a life-changing nutritional revelation. Congrats!

After my Hubby had radiation therapy following an operation he found that he can't eat raw onion any more, which is easy when we eat at home, but just about every salad at food outlets has this trendy raw red onion tossed through it so he has to remember to ask for no onion in his salads. When he worked out that that was the problem, it made life a lot easier.

No, diet is the correct word. I just leapt to the assumption that you were talking about weight loss or weight maintenance.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 07:16 PM

What follows is experience not recommendation:

I knew someone who tried the Adkins diet seriously and long term. He appeared to lose a lot of weight and keep it off and be healthy. I know no other details.

About fifteen years ago I tried a specific version of an administered keto diet. Mine was medium protein, low carb, and low fat. I went to a doctor's office once a week for a weigh-in, health check, and to purchase specialized diet supplements and low carb foods. It was not high expense. It worked to the extent of rapid loss of a lot of weight. It did not work for me in that I did not keep the weight off.

A "keto diet" is easy to say and write, but the point of the diet is to put your body into ketosis. This is a significant thing to do to your body so you must have a plan and a witness. You have to keep your total consumption of carbs not just low, but VERY LOW. Your pancreas goes inactive. You feel a difference. There are chemical tabs you purchase that detect the presence of ketones so you know you are in ketosis. Just eating a "keto diet" is not necessarily doing that for you. Any departure from the ultra-low carbathon kicks you out of ketosis in a hurry.

As to the medical benefits of it for weight loss, you can lose a lot of weight that way. But it is not a permanent state of affairs and unless you have a stable landing place as to lifestyle, there is no guarantee the weight will stay off. I think the other person I started with transitioned to Weight Watchers once they got where they wanted to go.

In ketosis, your brain is metabolizing differently than when you are ingesting more carbs. You do feel different, and it is neither bad nor good. The diet has been utilized for people with seizures. But that wasn't what I was doing it for.

One of my current friends with a lot of common sense and medical awareness thinks that going into ketosis for weight loss is generally drastic ill-advised and usually unhealthy. They developed a life-long habit of never finishing anything. They are slim and active.

When I was on the diet, I felt somewhat sharper mentally, but I also upped my caffeine consumption, via black coffee, significantly. Maybe there was a relationship there.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 11:22 PM

What worries me about the keto diet is that you would probably get into the habit of eating high fat amounts and then when you try to go back to a normal healthy eating plan you would have to kick the high fat habit.

The Atkins diet made sense to me and I did try it and I lost weight and kept it off for many years. I read the whole book, not just the intro and the stage 1 information, unlike many critics of the Atkins diet who seem to just read the kickstart/stage 1 part and say - very long and loudly - that it is unhealthy in the long term. Well, stage 1 was never intended as a long-term eating plan. It just leads into stage 2 which is the more gradual weight loss part. And then stage 3 is for maintaining the weight loss after you have reached your goal.

I liked the concepts in the Atkins diet and the type of food recommended were all healthy foods. The higher protein idea is to help prevent hunger, unlike when you go on rabbit food diet i.e. a lettuce leaf and a piece of carrot. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 01:28 AM

When I was 36, trying to keep a beer gut at bay with unfocused exercise
I joined a local private 'body builders' gym
which focused on diet as well as weights.
I had to discipline myself to eating small amounts frequently.
Specific food groups, at set times of day.

All 'normal' healthy food.
No expensive dubious supplements or protein shakes.
No alcohol.

I had no inclination to be a body builder, just fitter and stronger for my age.
The strict diet was a pain in the arse to adhere to.
But I was allowed one cheat meal on saturday nights.

Between 37 to 41 I got my weight hovering around 13 stone,
with muscularity somewhere between a swimmer and middle weight boxer starting to go to seed.
ie, no well defined six pack, but no flab either.
Sort of like a Roman Gladiator with a healthy protective layer of fat.

Back then I never had my BMI measured.

Then boredom set in, and I lapsed for a few years back to drinking and takeaways..

I got nearly as fit again by my 50th birthday.
Perhaps even more muscular,
with a low BMI measure which I've forgotten,
but I think was in the lower 20s.

Again dietary discipline was a constant battle against temptation,
and hard weight training worked up a thirst for weekend cider binges..

After my 50th birthday, illnesses and the increasing stress of family commitments
put a complete stop to my healthy lifestyle regime...

I am now a fat very unfit weaker bloke in my early 60s.
But I know what it felt like to have a superior than average physical strength and fitness,
and will need some serious reassessment if I survive the covid era into my mid 60s..

Very recently, lifting heavy storage boxes to clear space in the house,
and failing to fit under the sink to fix a leaky pipe
like I used to be able to,
has left my back and knees aching and stiff..

So, I will take an interest in threads like this...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 05:00 AM

Many years ago a friend of mine embarked on the Atkins diet. A few months later he ended up in intensive care as an emergency admission. I can't remember what the precise medical condition was that put him there but the crisis was put down to the diet. He's a happy fellow now, with "good cover" (something to fall back on, as my mum used to put it), but not obese, who enjoys normal food and drink (and life). Scientific evidence for the diet's efficacy in aiding weight loss, when looked at alongside more conventional methods (such as exercising portion control and avoiding snacking, etc.) is weak, though if you want to indulge in good old confirmation bias-style "evidence" there's plenty of that out there. Whilst I've never subscribed to the fat-is-bad point of view, it seems to me that the Atkins diet is faddy and risky. And I've never quite understood the complex-carbs-are-evil notion either. There's little evidence for that, and it strikes me that it's probably best to get proper medical advice (from a real doctor) if a specific medical condition appears to demand the avoidance of particular foods or food groups.

It's also worth remembering that anecdotal stuff (including what I said about my mate) put up in threads like this one is not evidence and is not necessarily to be trusted. I'm glad to see that no-one is "pushing" or recommending anything other than suggesting that it's probably ok for most people to go for a conventional, mixed, "balanced" diet, with two pints, not three, and three roasties, not four, etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 06:27 AM

So basically, what you are saying is that you know nothing about the diet, you have no factual evidence, but you have your opinions and you are quite happy to push those opinions with no substantial scientific basis in reality apart from hearsay and anecdote.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 06:47 AM

You are trolling. Before I posted that I spent an hour researching evidence for the efficacy of the Atkins diet apropos of weight loss, and there is hardly any, as you would find if you pursued the same line of enquiry, when set alongside most other more conventional weight-loss plans. I have pursued weight loss in my adult life and, thank you very much, I know all about the Atkins diet. Perhaps you should try to find neutral and objective sources of information instead of ignorantly lashing out at someone who has demurred at your point of view. Ironically, supporters of the Atkins diet can dredge up plenty of hearsay and anecdotal stuff (they would, wouldn't they?) but practically nothing by way of evidence. Unless you can prove me wrong, of course. With factual evidence...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 08:54 AM

I am kinda with Helen on this, Steve Shaw.

I have said I am not trying to lose weight. So why go off on your admittedly-not fact-based opinion of keto as weight-loss?

I have detailed my evidence the effect of carbs on my health, especially my mental health. So why call it, insultingly, confirmation bias? Especially since I didn't believe it before the evidence?

And Helen, I do think we need a word for diet as in what you eat as distinct from diet as in trying to lose weight. Or take the word diet back from the weightloss industry. Maybe they could have the word Regimen, akin to French régime meaning diet-for-weight-loss.

Aha! Régime change for health!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 09:01 AM

In my first line there I meant to say sustained weight loss. For the Atkins diet, that has not been demonstrated on any sound basis over the long term for reasonable sample sizes of people. It does seem on the other hand that you're just as likely to put the weight back on once you've lost some as you are with most other fad diets. All this is checkable if you search for independent medical opinion. Please note the two key words in the last three in that sentence.

I lost three stones a few years ago. I started by looking at the 5:2 diet. I sort of went along that path but not absolutely strictly. I couldn't stick to it for long, but what it did for was to alter my mindset apropos of food. The diet says, basically, starve yourself (500 calories max) for two days out of seven and do what you like on the other five. I found that the two starvation-days were so effortful that on the other days I didn't want to spoil it by pigging out. On those days I found it easier to be more disciplined about portion sizes and snacking. I've put about a third of that weight back on over the years but I'm nowhere near as bad as I was before. I wouldn't exactly say that I've got this year's beach body sorted as yet...

I also think that embarking on a good programme of exercise also contributes to that improved mindset. We were always told in our yoof things like it takes a three-mile run to work off one slice of toast, and that a vigorous bout of sex uses up only 27 calories more than sitting still (I don't believe it). That info about just how efficient the human body is at conserving energy could be a bit disheartening, but knowing that you're getting yourself in trim definitely helps you to "not spoil it" by then stuffing your face, I reckon...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 09:16 AM

Have another look at my post, Mrrzy. I haven't mentioned "keto" at all in any of my posts up to now, and I most decidedly did not point a finger at you personally when I made the remark about confirmation bias. OK?

Both Atkins and keto require one to make drastic changes in one's eating habits. There's evidence that a keto diet can help people with epilepsy, though the evidence isn't especially conclusive. This is not a medical forum and if we really do wish to discuss medical matters we should be able to put up both sides of the argument (many years ago, Chiff and Fipple adopted a policy strictly forbidding the propagation of anything that looked remotely like medical advice). If we get some people saying here that a particular drastic change in diet "works for me," then we should fully expect to also have it pointed out that the medical profession is by no means unanimous on whether these diets are good or even safe, and that evidence for their long-term efficacy is at best inconclusive and at worst pretty shaky. If that balance is not permitted here, then the forum is in disrepute. Anyway, good luck with your diet. Cottage pie and purple sprouting for tea tonight...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 09:30 AM

"Diet", if that means what you eat, is something everybody has, and can be adjusted for calorie content.
"Diet", if that means what you temporarily eat in order to lose weight, is by nature, abnormal.

From what I've seen, any rapid weight loss regimen is also a rapid-gain-it-back regimen when you stop it.

I think there are plenty of people who've adjusted to a keto diet (or for that matter, Adkins), but when I say "adjusted", I mean a lifestyle change, not a few months of eating unusual foods. That's like a dry-drunk when it comes to diet

The bottom line is, you need to figure out how many calories you need for your body to function. Excess calories turn into fat. Diets that fiddle with body aren't healthy.

Opinion: I think what's probably the best, healthiest diet is one diabedics follow. Personaly, I like chocolate too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 09:38 AM

The easiest way to figure out how many calories is to observe whether you gain or lose weight. I was never much good at counting actual calories. And I like fatty foods and I put too much butter in my mashed potato. Oh, and chocolate...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 10:56 AM

I'm 5'10" with naturally broad shoulders.
In my late 30s I was advised at the gym to aim for being a lean 12 stone of muscle.

[I had to visualise an appearance something like Brad Pitt in Fight Club.
An impossible ideal without Hollywood wealth and personal trainers/cooks,
but something tangible as a guiding light..]

I almost got down to 12 1/2 stone for a short while,
but it meant maintaining will power going to bed feeling hungry.
And painfully feeling the bitter cold in winter.
It was too miserable to keep up,
even though I enjoyed the physical fitness and strength benefits..

More trial and error, and I settled into a compromise
of stabilising my weight at around 14 - 15 stone
as I built more muscle,
but allowed myself a few more cheat foods and end of training week pints of cider..

That became a happier balance of muscle building, aerobic fitness, physical flexibility,
and weekend pub sessions with the mrs..

In practical terms, I could easily get in under the kitchen sink to fix leaks,
and confidently lift heavy storage boxes above my head for stacking.
Which I can't any more...

If I live to get to 65, I might even consider going mostly veggie again,
like I was as a skinny 11 stone 20 year old student/wannabe rock star...

I've already voluntarily packed in alcohol for health and finance reasons,
for getting on 2 years...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 12:09 PM

I'm happy if I can cut me toenails without gasping, wheezing and coming up for air every two toes. It's time to worry when you realise that you haven't been able to look down and see the ould todger for five years...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 01:06 PM

My wife has had practice cutting my old mum's toenails.
But even though my belly causes the same obstacle and backaching struggle
cutting my own nails,
I'm not sure I'd trust her to do it for me quite yet..
Certainly not any time soon after an argument...

Pampered luxury would be if I was well off enough to pay a chiropodist to visit on a regular basis...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 01:57 PM

I think a key issue in finding a healthy eating plan is not to go overboard, which is why I am very wary of the Paleo diet and some of the very restrictive diets which focus on eating a very narrow food or food group for a limited period of time to lose weight quickly. The tendency then, after the crash diet period is over, is often to go back to old eating habits. Also some people decide that they can go over the top and eat too much of certain foods like fatty foods if they are following a diet which says that fatty foods are not the cause of weight gain.

That's why diets like the CSIRO healthy eating plan make more sense to me because it is a way of changing eating habits into a set of healthier choices. As I said on 13 Feb, it focuses on increasing vegetables,fruit, healthy grains and legumes and low fat protein.

Recently I have been watching a TV series called The Diet Testers with Dr Xand Van Tulleken. A lot of people each try a different diet to see if they can lose weight. What I don't like about the show is that the health benefits or negative consequences are not analysed, but it is interesting to see what some of the fad diets are pushing, i.e. which ones to stay well clear of.

I prefer some other programmes I have seen which explore different health and weight loss plans where they make before-and-after analyses of the medical status of each participant using a large range of scientific measures.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 05:41 PM

I saw a documentary about a guy with a very specific cancer. He was a medico, and basically on a life sentence, so he did his research. And he is in remission, but only while he does his keto diet. It is not for the casual dieter. He has all the time available to him, and it takes a lot.

Things like eating insect protein, just sourcing it is difficult. Not appetising, but if the alternative is death....................

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 05:53 PM

There's a [mail order ?] insect meat farm in Wales..

.. well, there was before lockdown...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 05:57 PM

Eat insect protein or die? Really??

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 03:47 AM

Would crustaceans do instead of insects?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 04:15 AM

How about mushy bees with your fish and chips?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 07:30 AM

What is wrong with insects as food?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 08:58 AM

I emailed a spiny anteater about that but I'm still waiting for a reply as he's still on the antacids (formic).

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 09:06 AM

If I recall correctly, the Welsh insect farm sold powdered insect protein...???

It was subject of a TV documentary a couple years ago...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0911ydt


https://www.thebugfarm.co.uk/about-us/bug-farm-foods/

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 10:45 AM

You are trolling.

No, Helen is calling you out for what you are. A didact. You like lecturing people, your way is the only way, you always insist you're right, and it's impossible to persuade you otherwise, even when it's obvious to others that your way is... only one way.

Nutrition is very much a black art. Everyone is groping in the dark. The "balanced diet", previously mentioned, is mostly the result of one influential scientist getting the ear of the USDA in the 50's. The balanced diet is medieval in the same sense that the world is flat & the centre of the universe - it's true because we've been told it's true, so we believe it; it sounds plausible. It's garbage.

As with any other diet, there's no evidence that it's... anything. The problem with nutritional science is that you need to study it over a very long period of time and, on top of that, you have to trust your guinea pigs to tell you the truth about what they've been eating. Every day. These studies do not exist. They are only now in progress. If you want to know how diet impacts on... heart disease, cancer, osteoporosis, etc, you have to run the things for 50 years & more.

I can go on & on. Instead I recommend to you a book, Why We Get Fat. Gary Taubes is a science writer, not a scientist. Nor do I wholly agree with all that he says. He should, though, provoke thought, if you are capable of thinking; not umbilically attached to "This is right! Nothing else could be!!!"

I am personally a fan of LCHF diets (Low Carb High Fat), though I rarely stick to them very well (although indifferent to rice, I luuuurve spuds, bread & pasta!). But I am also a fan of Fast diets i.e. diets that involve minimal consumption for 1 or 2 days a week. Some folk struggle with these, I find no trouble at all in eating minimally or not at all.

Ultimately, it comes down to the same thing that most things do - "What works for me?". If X doesn't work, try Y; if Y doesn't work, try Z; if Z doesn't work, then try something else in the alphabet (or beyond!). Find something that works for you, and if you do... Don't imagine that it'll work for everyone, or even anyone, else! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 21 - 01:12 PM

Raedwulf said, "The 'balanced diet', previously mentioned, is mostly the result of one influential scientist getting the ear of the USDA in the 50's."

I agree. The balanced diet concept was a good start but I think it should be re-evaluated as nutritional studies bring more evidence.

As for guinea pigs in diet studies, someone I knew, by naming a specific well-known diet, used to justify eating high fat, high meat-based protein meals with very little vegetables or fruit but it appeared that he was simply eating what he liked to eat, ignoring the diet's healthy focus on vegetables, fruit and increased plant-based protein, and then was wondering why he wasn't losing weight. He wasn't following the diet as it was proposed by it's author.

I watch a lot of Dr Michael Mosley's health documentaries and one interesting item on Trust Me I'm a Doctor was that eating pasta which has been cooked, cooled and re-heated turns it into a resistant starch.

"So, according to scientist Dr Denise Robertson, from the University of Surrey, if you cook and cool pasta down then your body will treat it much more like fibre, creating a smaller glucose peak and helping feed the good bacteria that reside down in your gut. You will also absorb fewer calories, making this a win-win situation."

.........

"Chris [Dr Chris van Tulleken] was certainly blown away by this finding.

"'We've made a brand new discovery on Trust Me I'm A Doctor', he says, 'and it's something that could simply and easily improve health. We can convert a carb-loaded meal into a more healthy fibre-loaded one instead without changing a single ingredient, just the temperature. In other words our leftovers could be healthier for us than the original meal.'"

This works for potatoes too, so that's good news for me because I love potatoes. I also add potato starch, which is a resistant starch, whenever I cook with flour or in my high-fibre fruit smoothies.