BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 12:29 AM

Hi robomatic, I'd probably have to re-read my 5:2 fast diet book to see if it mentions the influence - or not - on metabolic rate but I just did a quick search and found this short article.

Fast 5:2 Diet Evidence

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 05:46 AM

The studies I've seen appear to show that most people don't lash out on the unhealthy stuff on non-fast days

Not true for everyone! I have tried every diet going, including 5:2. I start off being very good and lose weight as expected. Then slowly, slowly, my "eat what you want on the non-fast days" increases until I am undoing all the good work of the fast day. My mind then becomes fixated on how to stop this - even to the point of changing 5:2 to 4:3 (which I have done at sometime). Fixation is a big problem. What happens if your fast day coincides with a special occasion where you know you will be eating. Do you skip it? Bring it forward? Shift the whole cycle back one day? Add an extra fast day to compensate? It's not long before your diet is occupying all your thoughts.

..... it's not a long dreary slog with no end in sight.

The amount of weight I need to lose means that it is, inevitably, a long dreary slog with moments of despair when I plateau out for a week or more, before restarting the weight loss. There is no end in sight. I have lost 3 stone many times, only to put 3 stone 2 pounds back on again. My weight has followed a saw-tooth upward trend. I am now on the way down again but, this time, even losing 3 stone will leave me overweight. I know I can win the battle but, inevitably, I will lose the war.

I eat very little processed food, rarely have take-aways, drink only moderately and my taste for sweet things has decreased over the years. I eat a well balanced diet - I just eat too much. In my effort to get my five-a-day, I can demolish the fruit bowl. Eating too much meat means that I have to eat too much dessert to maintain the balance. My biggest problem is comfort eating through boredom

Steve has it right, upthread. Exercise, portion control and avoiding snacking are better than fad diets.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 08:55 AM

Portion control is by far the worst cocept for weight loss. Guaranteed to leave you wanting more. Far, far better to eat as much as you want, but select what you eat as much as you want to *of* [sorry, English, for mangling you].

Out of ketosis from a week of bday feasting including a bite of dessert most days, a coupla slices of bread or a mouthful of rice, here and there. Not gone nuts, though! So maybe my equanimity has gotten stronger. Might test it by having actual pasta. Might not.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 10:02 AM

eat as much as you want to *of*

But very often I don't actually want it. I eat it because it's there. I don't need anything with a cup of tea or coffee but if the biscuit barrel is on the table then ...

Or, I'll raid the fridge each time I pass through the kitchen. I don't need to be hungry to take a nibble of cheese; a couple of prawns; a spoonful of coleslaw; - not much on their own but they all add up. The best cure for that is keeping busy so that I don't have time to graze.

Another thing is being a human dustbin. If something is getting near its use-by date, I will eat it up rather than throw it away. If I have made a meal with two reasonable portions but my wife only takes a small portion, then I will finish off what is left in the bowl.

The problem with fad diets is that when they come to an end, I go back to eating as before and pile the pounds back on. Educating my stomach to expect less seems a better way of making a change in lifestyle.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 11:12 AM

There is no single diet that suits everyone. I tried alsorts, including Atkins and fasting, with little or no sucess. The only thing that does it for me is watching what I put in and doing more. WW has worked well for me. I accept it is a lifestyle thing and not a temporary fix. The interesting thing I find with WW is that I count points rather than calories. Their phrase 'not all calories are equal' rings very true with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 11:59 AM

I'm 3 1/2 weeks into my my frozen ready meals, meat and cheese pasties,
steak pies, ready salted crisps, and Quavers diet..

What a modern marvel of technology is the microwave oven...


.. yeah ok, I do have an apple, a banana and a multivitamin tablet everyday...

And a once or twice weekly late night snack treat
is eating corned beef straight out the tin with a spoon..

Proper job British survival grub...!!!

I depend on a weekly food parcel drop off to keep me going...

Can't say if it's the best or worst diet I've ever lived on,
But it's keeping me alive while I'm still stuck away from home doing an elderly relative pathological hoarder's house clearance.

I probably should have had a tetanus booster before starting this verging on squalor job.
But at least had enough sense to take my own sleeping bag...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 12:41 PM

For years now I've paid attention to the amount of foods and logged them on My Fitness Pal with the various free parameters set so I can track (in particular) calcium. I also have it set on Carbs, Sugar, Cholesterol, and Fiber since I have five categories I can let it calculate. This is because in 2017 I was diagnosed with Polymyalgia Rheumatica. PMR. My rheumatologist tracked that and with steroids over the next 18 months it went away, but when you're taking steroids you have to be very careful with calcium because your bones can't add more, you need to get everything you need via diet so you don't end up robbing your bones and osteoporosis, etc., can develop.

I have an electronic scale in the kitchen and especially with foods that have calcium content I weighed so I could enter it and keep track. If I didn't get enough through food then I supplemented by taking calcium tablets, broken to the point to give me the 100% requirement. Taking too much calcium causes other problems. I haven't weighed food for diet reasons much for a while, but when I'm doing the alternate day fasting I will. Most of the time I can eyeball it; 1 cup of baked squash or steamed broccoli, instead of weighing, for example.

I see this doctor once a year for follow-up (PMR often stays away, but not always; it's idiopathic so we don't know the trigger, though it's my guess that stress was a major factor.) Now she watches for osteoporosis, as does my ob/gyn. Getting the calcium right is a life-long pursuit now.

There are some foods I don't bother to log on My Fitness Pal because I know they don't have calcium content to consider, but if I'm watching calories then they do get entered. It also has a category for amount of water drunk each day, and that's a good reminder in cooler weather to stay hydrated. I haven't bothered to join the paid version of the program because the free one does what I need. It's very helpful during the alternate day fasting, but don't use the "Complete this Entry" button when you're fasting or you'll get a scold that you haven't eaten enough food to keep body and soul alive. I rarely bother to complete any of the entry days, just keep that running log.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 01:27 PM

Doug, I'm a little confused about your term "fad diet" because a diet developed and studied scientifically and approved by medical doctors is not a fad diet as I understand it.

Fad diets tend to be promoted by celebrities in the media or on social media and tend to have been invented by someone with little or no expertise in nutritional science who is motivated to become famous and rich. The TV show called The Diet Testers which appears to be aka How to Lose Weight Well, tried out a range of diets on some willing participants and any of the diets which rely on an extremely limited range of foods e.g. cabbage soup, or the potato diet and not healthy balanced eating, counts as a fad diet in my definition.

If a diet has been scientifically proven to work for a significant number of people after rigorous, evidence-based studies, then it's not a fad diet in my definition. It might be popular because it works so people are talking about it but, in my opinion, it doesn't make it a fad diet.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 01:42 PM

I just did a quick search and found this article:

25 Trendy Fad Diets That Are Total BS

Each diet is given a quick review on why it is not a good idea for long term health benefits.

The review of the keto diet for *weight loss* - so this is not about the use of the diet to alleviate seizures - is:


"23 Only Try the Ketogenic Diet If You're A Serious Athlete

"Your body runs on that bagel you ate this morning. But if you starve it of carbs, your body goes into a state of ketosis where it burns fat for fuel. In fact, it's a strategy some serious athletes are using to boost their performance, but for weight loss, it's not worth it. "It may help you lose weight more dramatically and it may be safe for a short period. However, since your kidneys filter out protein, a ketogenic diet can weaken them over time," says Mark Mincolla, Ph.D., author of The Whole Health Diet. Weight loss for your health? The trade off doesn't seem worth it."

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 01:49 PM

Thanks! I had read about it leaching calcium, but not about kidneys. I am definitely thinking long-term keto can't be healthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 02:15 PM

On the other hand, the same website has this to say about using keto "for keeping your mental health in check" on their list of top diet plans.

3 Ketogenic Diet

The high-fat, low-carb ketogenic diet isn't just touted as a way to help you lose weight; research has also shown that it may be an effective tool for keeping your mental health in check. Laboratory rats fed ketogenic diets — which consist of lots of fish, natural fats, plenty of vegetables, and very few starchy, high-carbohydrate foods — showed improvements in their depression, anxiety, and ADHD.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 02:40 PM

I concur that "My Fitness Pal" is pretty good.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 02:59 PM

Doug, I'm a little confused about your term "fad diet"

Yes Helen, it was lazy of me to lump intermittent fasting in with fad diets when what I was referring to was diets, of any sort, used as short term fixes.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 03:03 PM

Yay keto mental health! Boo keto physical health!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 03:22 PM

Mrrzy, I guess that means finding a healthy balance.

I wonder what exactly it is about the keto diet which positively affects mental health. That would be interesting to find out because then you could work out a healthy solution, using the part of the diet which works but opening your options for a wider variety of healthy food. I'm also wondering whether, on reaching and maintaining ketosis for a specified period of time, is there a next stage of maintaining your mental health on a modified version of the keto diet? So many questions.

Thanks for the clarification, Doug. I don't see the Fast diet as a short term fix, because for me personally it helped me to find a more balanced long term way of eating a healthy diet and I monitor my weight so that if it looks like my healthy balance is going out of whack, I do a modified version of the Fast diet. But, I tend to go for lots of veges and legumes as well as meat and dairy so my everyday nutrition is generally balanced, even allowing for some hot chips or dark chocolate or other treats every now and then.

One tip I have seen on the diet programmes is to keep a food diary for about a week, being totally honest about exactly what I eat and how much. It can be revealing when I look at it all written down, instead of thinking I can have a bit of this and a bit of that and "it shouldn't make much difference". As for leftovers, I cook large-ish amounts and I freeze portions so that we can have a quick healthy meal if I don't feel like cooking sometimes. Also, I tend to eat on a smaller plate because it makes the portion appear to be larger. It's a psychological trick but it seems to work. And another trick I used when I came home from work, instead of raiding the frig or pantry for something sweet or fatty, I'd have a bit of protein, e.g. a bit of low fat cheese or a piece of leftover roast beef to tide me over until I had cooked dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 04:49 PM

As alluded to in my post up above, I find that the details around weight loss and dieting can easily become a bit of an obsession, so no food diary for me.

I have, in the past, frozen leftovers then thrown them out 18 months later when found at the back corner of the freezer basket.

The smaller plates tip is something that I have already decided to take up and am looking out for plates of the appropriate size that fit in with our current crockery.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 05:27 PM

Doug, I only did the food diary for a week. It helps to look objectively at how much food and what type of food I eat normally. It's just a data-gathering exercise to look at my current normal situation before taking proactive steps to improve my eating habits.

One of the Van Tulleken doctors - it might have been Dr Xand - in a TV documentary carried a bucket around with him for one day. For every item of food he ate, he put another one in the bucket and then a scientist analysed it for calories, fats, sugars, etc or something like that. I'd rather a nice discreet little diary or an app on the phone. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 21 - 06:27 PM

Since PMR is idiopathic, mentioned before, I looked at other factors beyond stress. Food that are considered inflammatory might be part of it, and wheat flour is one of those, so during most of the time I shopped for gluten free as a way to eliminated wheat from my diet. Since getting off of the steroids I've added wheat back, but I don't eat as much as I used to. If you read about how non-organic wheat is harvested, you would also. Farmers now often hit it with Glyphosate (Roundup) to desiccate it before harvest; Glyphosate doesn't bread down and it harms your gut bacteria just like it harms weeds. An article about it.

Shopping for me involves reading lots of labels to avoid various things I'm allergic to or often, simply things I'd rather not eat. I do most cooking from scratch.

As to plate size, I recently found more lunch plates to round out my set of stoneware I like for meals (the first five plates were picked up at a thrift store, a lovely pattern I thought I'd seen around more than turned out to be the case. It was quite some time before I could find more.) They're smaller than dinner plates but it doesn't look like you're being shortchanged, they're not small like salad plates or saucers. I've used lunch plates for years for the very reason of portion size. I have a few dinner plates in the pantry that are handy sometimes during meal preparation for some large piece of food that needs to thaw, for a volume of food that needs a plate instead of a bowl, etc. Sometimes for serving. Never for eating off of.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 02:18 AM

My wife got most of her patients to keep food and symptom diaries. Usually for about a month, sometimes a lot longer. Her filing cabinets had a couple of thousand of them.

The most useful ones were done on lined writing paper. Software solutions were useless because they introduced too much delay and omission. Do it on paper and always carry paper and something to write with.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 04:17 AM

Jack, I think that keeping the food diary was a wake-up call. If I was completely honest and didn't fudge the entries or "forget" to write something down, or underestimate the portions then I could see exactly what food I was consuming and when. I couldn't hide my head in the sand.

It was a good motivator for change.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 07:04 AM

Two questions from reading recent posts:

Why are 'salad plates' smaller than dinner plates, or even 'lunch plates'?
I always eat salad off [not off of] a large plate.

Why are the most useful food diaries the ones done on lined writing paper?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 09:50 AM

I disciplined myself to small bowl meals when I was taking gym training seriously,
and persevered with feeling hungry and mierable at every bedtime.

Now small bowls only provide any benefit
from the exercise walking to the kitchen and back for extra helpings refills...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 09:51 AM

Miserable...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 16 Mar 21 - 03:07 PM

V. funny, pfr!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Mar 21 - 10:00 PM

I like this person's look at food and cooking:

Adam Ragusea: Why raw, paleo and keto diets are stupid

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 01:19 AM

Thanks for that. Nicely put.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 01:44 AM

Thanks robomatic. That was interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Spearcarrier
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 01:55 AM

Keto worked great for me when i was doing it. It's VERY HARD for me to lose weight. The problem is following the keto diet proved to be too large of an obstacle. Sometimes there's no time, or worse, no money.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 10:56 AM

The video does say that the *reasoning* behind raw and paleo is poor, but that keto is just really hard to do, and that most people who claimed to be doing it, weren't, really. I thought that interesting.
I agree with the reasoning on paleo and raw. I agree that keto is hard to accomplish, and that I am not following it as designed (I am not hi-fat, just low-carb). However I did not find that the video said that it was poorly reasoned, or otherwise stupid. Which, as I said, I found interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 07:07 PM

To reiterate myself, I've only lost major weight by something very like keto. And my long term worry is that I might be lowering my resting metabolism or weight 'set point' (and maybe already have). So how do I maintain control over that vital linkage to weight?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 07:39 PM

I said I was leaving this thread and not coming back. I lied. I simply had to encourage all here to google this from today's Guardian:

"Thanks for all the dietary advice. Don't expect me to pay attention to any of it." (Jay Rayner)

Thank God for the truly sane!

Back to my hole...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 18 Mar 21 - 08:08 PM

robomatic, I think - but don't know the full evidence - that crash dieting e.g. The Biggest Loser TV show type of dieting, losing weight, then going back to bad eating habits and gaining weight can lead to yo-yo dieting and this can affect the metabolism. This is just a quick reflection on some of the things I have read or seen on reputable, scientific documentaries.

One thing I remember hearing about was that after the fat cells in a person's body are reduced in size they still have the capacity to get larger again - or maybe they multiply - but the problem lies in having a large fat storage capacity and then reducing that capacity and then increasing it again, especially time and again.

I'm just about to go out so I can't research it and give you more specific information but it might be worthwhile looking into that.

Ultimately, in my opinion, it comes back to changing eating habits *for life* to a healthy, balanced diet with lots of good nutritious food and a healthy lifestyle and not falling into the trap of losing weight and then *rewarding* myself with junk food and then spiralling back into old bad habits.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 21 - 02:53 AM

One of the most startling pieces of raw historical data I've ever seen was the diary of the head gardener at Dalkeith Palace for the decades around 1800. As well as describing how he ran the garden, he met all the celebrity visitors and got to record their height and weight. They were astonishingly small and light by modern standards. By far the heaviest, out in a class of his own, was "Monsieur", later the Bourbon King Louis XVIII. At 13 stone. So whatever the diet and exercise regime of the Georgian aristocracy was, it was bloody effective at weight control.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 19 Mar 21 - 04:32 AM

Well it didn't include burgers & chips from Maccas or fried chicken from KFC, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Mar 21 - 12:21 PM

They also didn't spend most of their spare time sat on their arses, eyes glued to screens...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 03:30 AM

Everyone here gets enough exercise jumping to conclusions, flying off the handle, carrying things too far, dodging responsibilities and pushing their luck :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 04:49 PM

I need to reread The Phantom Tollbooth. That is where I learned about jumping to conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 09:53 AM

Aand my cholesterol, long diet-controlled, has gone outa whack.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 06:57 PM

Conferring with nutritionist Friday. Shall I report back?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Mar 21 - 07:29 PM

Yeah, mate!! I want to know what's happening with you.

I did a bit of a quick Google on using keto to alleviate seizures and one page I saw recommended a couple of other diets which are a bit easier to follow.

Dietary Therapies for Epilepsy

"Other diets

Regardless of the effectiveness of the ketogenic diet, many people discontinue it because of its unpalatable and restrictive features. There is no question that the ketogenic diet can be difficult to follow, or you may want to transition to a less structured diet.

Dietary options for epilepsy have expanded in recent years to include:

    "The Modified Atkins Diet (MAD): which is a less restrictive variation of the ketogenic diet and can be started at home without a fast. There is unlimited protein and fat intake, and does not restrict calories or fluids.
    "The Low-Glycemic Index (Low GI) treatment diet: which does not necessarily cause ketosis, and may instead reduce seizures by lowering glucose levels in the blood and possibly in brain cells.

"While still restrictive compared to a “normal” diet, these diets are easier to incorporate into normal life and easier to follow when eating out. The scientific evidence for their effectiveness is still in early stages and varies greatly between studies."

There are a lot more pages you can look at, but one also said that high cholesterol is a possible side effect of the keto diet.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Mar 21 - 07:42 AM

Oops *next* Friday.

Yeah, I can do the no carbs but not the high fat.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 21 - 08:15 AM

Low GI is a good alternative to no carbs. You get carbs but the lower the GI, the slower they release into your body and the better you can handle them.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 01:15 AM

GI? Glycemic index?

Nutritionist says watch for B vitamin deficiency, but nothing says long-term keto is bad, but since most people can't stick to it, data are sparse.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 02:55 AM

Yes, Glycemic Index. Highest is Glucose. Lowest GI foods are stoned fruits and beans.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 03:01 AM

There are odd anomalies though. Like chips (fries) are lower than baked potatoes because the fat that chips are fried in lowers the absorption rate.

Just struck me too. It may not be purely carbs that affect your mental health. Could it be the blood sugar spikes produced by high GI carbs? If so, GI may be worth investigating.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 09:56 AM

Totz. I did find that pasta, rice, couscous, taters, and bread all had the same effect, but I am gonna look into adding low gi carbs. I like lentils and hummous, for instance. And berries.

Good thought, my Gnome friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 01:25 PM

The comment (DavetG will recognise this phenomenon instantly) used to be that a thread had been "Keithed" (He of Blessed Memory; blessed because he is now a Mudcat memory...). Now you could use a different name, but the mods have been getting more strict (hurrah!) about 'personal attacks', so I will only say that I dropped out of this after Someone Else decided to get involved (it should be fairly obvious who).

I submit that until we know how to manage...

Essentially, robo, that's what I said way back up at 16/2 somewhere. Folk like to declare stuff, especially if the folk in question wants to sell you something. But nutrition/diet is about as complex as you can get & the studies we have are not sufficiently long-term or all-encompassing to prove anything. All of it, at the moment, is "best guess" territory. There are very good reasons for doubting that the supposedly perfect "balanced" diet is in any way suitable for Homo Sap.

GI Index - There seems to be a little confusion above about this. The GI Index is not a simple measure of how much carb X contains. It's supposed to be a measure of how quickly human digestion absorbs whatever carbs are in the stomach. I think it was Helen who mentioned "Trust Me, I'm A Doctor" saying that "cooled carbs" was an entirely new discovery... No it's not. Michel Montignac pre-dates "Trust Me" by some years. As far as I remember... Imagine a tsp of pure glucose. That's 100 on the GI index. When it hits your digestive system, it (more or less) goes straight into your bloodstream. A tsp of water is 0 GI; it's got no carbs at all. Pretty much anything else is somewhere in between.

Yes, "cooled starches" reduce their carbiness (retrogradation is the technical term, I believe). On Montignac's scale, IIRC, 'cold' carbs drop about 5 pts compared with 'just cooked' ones. The amount of carb doesn't change; just the rate at which you absorb them. And that is a key point of the GI Index. 1 Tsp of monosaccharide sugar (glucose) has a higher GI than 1 tsp of polysaccharide sugar - the body has to expend energy breaking it down (that's a whole other issue!). The point of the low GI diet is that you reduce / eliminate the 'straight into the bloodstream' carbs. Eat a flapjack (oats are low-GI) rather than a packet of sweets (pure sugar!) sort of thing.

I could say a lot more. I've been keenly interested in diet (in a strictly amateur but definitely in a neutral & analytic way) for many years. But if you don't care enough to ask about or challenge what I've just said, typing more now would be a waste of everyone's time! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 03:25 PM

Thanks Raedwulf for your explanation:

"The GI Index is not a simple measure of how much carb X contains. It's supposed to be a measure of how quickly human digestion absorbs whatever carbs are in the stomach."

That makes a lot of sense to me. I read about GI when it first became a talked-about topic, but that was quite a while ago so I forgot the details of how it works.

You also said:

"I think it was Helen who mentioned 'Trust Me, I'm A Doctor' saying that 'cooled carbs' was an entirely new discovery".

To clarify, I didn't say it was a new discovery. I just happened to see it on the Trust Me.. show, so a new discovery for me! LOL. It surprised me that cooking and cooling the carbs could make a difference.

Mrrzy, lentils and hummus are great! I probably said this before, but maybe not in this thread. I use red lentils to thicken stews or soup instead of flour. I also think - trying frantically to look back through my cluttered and ageing brain-database - that there are pastas made from lentils or legumes, but also flour made from chickpeas etc. Hubby has used a grinder to grind red lentils to make a flour for a dish he made and it worked well.

I'm a bit partial to red lentils because they break down easily into a dish, but other lentils keep their shape and texture and more easily become the star of the show, for example in Indian curries etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 08:22 PM

a greek restaurant in seattle gave me directions for large pot of lentil soup for a camp. Basically lentils, water, salt, I think bay leaf..maybe rosemary...main additions were vinegar and olive oil at the end. it is delicious. From Costa's restaurant.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 06:11 AM

There are good GI tables out there. If I remember right, channa dhal is much lower than lentils and the lowest-GI legume of all is one traditionally eaten by the Australian Aboriginals.

But if ketosis is the therapeutic mechanism for treatment of seizures and bipolarity, this is not all that important. The keto side effects will be unavoidable. Much like the effects of carbamazepine, another treatment used for both conditions.