BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 04:58 PM

To be fair to both of us, Steve Shaw, I have often felt that you "go after me" and you have upset me, sometimes badly and not infrequently, in so doing.

However, now that I am fairly carb-free (the pee stick says I am in ketosis! Yay!) I have more equanimity. And I don't hold grudges. But it is because of that, that I try to point out when we agree on things, to preemptively prevent you from coming after me again.

I don't think Helen's complaints were entirely baseless, either.

And I really don't think it is the mod's job to fact-check this forum! Really not! You have a question about who is telling a truth, look it up yourself, you the reader! Post your findings if they do contradict, and back down from your accusations if you're wrong. You know, like a grownup.

And, like grownups, remember that if someone disagrees with your *opinion* they are not *wrong* - your opinion is not a truth. It is your opinion. Steve Shaw, this is an issue I have had with you individually.

But back to the keto thing: I don't think I have had any of the weird symptoms of ketosis... I don't smell acetone on my breath (but I live alone), I have not felt ill or fluish (yeah, I know, I don't *look* fluish), so, fine. My regular doc keeps pushing back my regular appt, which is annoying because I was being rigorous for the checkup, then it got postponed a week, ok, grumble, but then it got delayed another month and yikes, not planning on being careful for *that* long.

And I like having equanimity.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 04:38 PM

if he was 195 pounds when he entered the hospital following his fall, would that be considered overweight? I don't know his height, musculature etc. He died at around 258 pounds, which seems it would definitely fall into the overweight category but it seems to be explained by fluid retention in the hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 01:19 PM

This article is the one quoted by Jeri on 24 Feb 21, 09:23 PM

The Death of Dr. Atkins By Tyler Hass July 3, 2020

A Google search of

Crossfit Dr Atkins

returns a lot of interesting articles.

I'm reading this one - It’s the insulin resistance, stupid: Part 3
By Prof. Timothy Noakes - it's a bit long - but an interesting account of how Dr Atkins researched possible solutions to obesity

Just to get back to the original topic of this thread, a Google search of

Crossfit keto

returns a lot of results too.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 09:55 AM

Reading the article you posted would've been rational. You're the one doing the cherry-picking.
You're trying too hard to find some excuse to go after Mrrzy, and desperation never comes off well.

After reading the CrossFit article, I've learned things. I knew the Atkins diet worked, but I didn't know what it's long-term effect, or what its effects on other body chemistry issues would be. So thanks to Steve for making me aware of something that probably accidentally said the opposite of what he thought it did, and filled out those points.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 04:33 AM

Well, we can all cherrypick. If you think Atkins is good for you, great, go for it. But don't come here singing its praises and advocating it for overweight people. If you would rather skirt round the murky and occasionally suspicious details of his later-life physical health and death, grand, but just remember that the truth was deliberately hidden by his family.   Overweight people are overweight because they don't work off as many calories as they take in. That's a kind way of saying that they eat too much and are relatively physically inactive. So you advocate a high-fat diet for such people. I call that just a tad irresponsible, frankly, when what you should be advocating FIRST is an overall reduction in food intake whilst maintaining a balanced diet (NOT a dirty term and NOT a last resort!). Atkins made many millions by promoting his diet. What's left of his company isn't interested in it these days and we have a massive obesity epidemic. Whatever else contributes to that, it certainly isn't because we are not eating enough fat.       Be rational and dig deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 11:35 PM

Mg, the crossfit article quoted his wife who said that he was given fluids while he was in a coma so his weight on his death was significantly higher than his weight on admission to hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 11:29 PM

they say he died weighing around 258 pounds. However, on his hospital admission after falling on the ice, he weighed 195 pounds. So they say. Massive weight gain in about nine days due to fluids.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 09:23 PM

From the CrossFit article:

"Low-carb and keto diets are currently surging in popularity. Many of Atkins’ claims about the superiority of his diet for weight loss are now being validated, and new research is showing ketogenic diets to be an effective treatment for Type 2 diabetes and a variety of other metabolic disorders. Low-carb diets are proving beneficial in ways unimaginable to Atkins’ critics. We’re advancing toward a new landscape in nutrition, and Atkins deserves his fair share of the credit, for he remained steadfast despite tremendous pressure to give in to the mob mentality driving fat hysteria."

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 08:08 PM

Opinion and misinformation not based on fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 07:56 PM

Mods, please check out that Dr Atkins died several days after having a heart attack! You seem to be rather intent on leaving unbalanced information here. Don't you think that this at least should be known about a cardiologist guru who promoted, and got very rich from, a high-fat diet??

---

No No heart attack. He had cardiomyopathy, probably caused by a virus. According to Wikipedia: "Nine days prior to his death, Atkins fell and hit his head on an icy New York sidewalk. At New York's Weill Cornell Medical Center, where he was admitted on April 8, he underwent surgery to remove a blood clot from his brain but went into a coma and died from complications. He spent nine days in intensive care before dying on April 17, 2003" -Mod/factchecker

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 03:08 PM

Thanks mg.

There has been a lot of misinformation about Dr Atkins and his controversial diet since the book was first published. My biggest source of annoyance about that is the majority of the people spreading the misinformation have never read the whole book or the complete diet information before forming an opinion and telling the world what they think. It's even easier to spread misinformation now because of the internet and social media.

As an ex-librarian, the spreading of false information is, in my opinion, almost a "crime against humanity". Sorry, I'm exaggerating a bit, but it is irresponsible and can have negative and in some cases serious consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 02:56 PM

Dr Atkins died after falling on ice. He had a heart history of cardiomyopathy. I think caused by a virus. It is I'm not positive he did or did not have a heart attack. But everyone please research this and make sure you have accurate information.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Feb 21 - 08:42 AM

Yeah, I did think the Crisco thing was a high-fat suggestion...

But it might be nice to eat cheeses again.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 22 Feb 21 - 05:20 AM

The company website which had the review of the CSIRO diet has no connection with the CSIRO. Someone from the company was reviewing the diet. And in my post I advised that the company reviewing the diet was a food company.

CSIRO, in case you are wondering, which you aren't because you don't ask questions and you don't appear to do proper research and review of information, is the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation, an Australian Government agency responsible for scientific research.

Perhaps you would like to research that - in a fair and balanced manner instead of jumping to incorrect conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Feb 21 - 03:22 AM

Eat insect protein or die? Really??

Cherry picking the reportage again. Binary brain?

The guy was a medical student, resourceful and knew his fate, or the one he was diagnosed with. You have to watch the video to see a man giving a balanced appraisal and compare it with an evangelistic vegan (for instance) to test the veracity of the guy's words. And you would side with "the guy is genuine" until proven otherwise.

And years ago I saw a series of adverts in a science/technology magazine aimed at reducing heart attacks etc. The strap line was "Listen to your body"

And that is just what that guy was doing. It informed the progress with his diet.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 10:49 PM

Anyway, you wanted a high fat keto diet, so maybe Crisco is just what you were looking for.

I know the CSIRO diet is a weight loss diet but I just think it's a good healthy eating plan and it could be adapted as a good basis to the keto concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 09:45 PM

Well, laughter is good medicine so I'm pleased I could help. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 08:50 PM

I read that as the CRISCO diet and burst out laughing. Then I reread it.

Then I saw Scientifically Proven Weight Loss Solution and burst out laughing all over again!

But I am not trying to lose weight, just to stay sane, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 03:46 PM

I just found this:

CSIRO Diet Review 2021 "Scientifically Proven Weight Loss Solution"

Caution: this review is on a website owned by a food company but I just read the review and it appears to be well written and presenting a balanced view.

I bought the book about 10 years ago. It's not necessary to pay for the diet which is fairly expensive. Just buy the book. And there are also plans for specific health issues e.g. diabetes, gut health, heart health etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 02:42 PM

If I am considering starting a specific diet, I read the book or the information which is authorised by the originator of the diet (i.e. not just garbled information on social media) or there may be information available on TV, like Michael Mosley's programmes. (That is how I heard about the 5:2 Fast diet.)

I make my decision to start the diet based on whether the diet has been scientifically studied, the proposed health benefits and possible pitfalls, the specific health condition(s) which may be addressed and most importantly, whether the recommended foods are healthy and balanced, with a focus on vegetables, healthy proteins including legumes, and good fibre intake.

That is my personal list of criteria. I don't have any specific health conditions to worry about but I do need to make sure that the diet is heart healthy and not likely to adversely affect cholesterol levels.

I also evaluate the reasoning behind the proposed diet. Back in the '80's when I read the Dr Atkins diet book I thought there was some scientific reasoning behind it and Atkins had studied diet participants and their health outcomes over a significant period of time. To me, there seemed to be a good scientific basis for the diet.
It was also controversial at the time, and Atkins has revised the diet based on further outcomes from studies.

One especially controversial proposal in the Atkins diet at the time was that sugar has crept into almost everything we eat and that products marketed as low-fat and healthy often have a higher sugar content to make it taste better, so when buying low-fat yoghurt, for example, it helps to compare the sugar content with other products.

Most of the diets out there which are proposed on good scientific principles also recommend exercise and a lot of them recommend portion control.

Personally I tend to avoid diets which push only one food type, or which appear to have little or no scientific study to back it up. As an example, I read the book about the blood type diet when it was first published because people I met had been talking about it. I wasn't impressed with the reasoning behind it, it seemed to have no scientific basis, and the division of which foods were appropriate for each blood type seemed to be randomly allocated. I don't know anyone who seriously tried it, and my final deduction - i.e. this is just my opinion - was that the author just wanted to make money from the book, scanned the diet types on the market, came up with something completely new and started flogging it on the market, on TV, in the media. That's just my opinion but it's based on what I read in the book.

As a weight loss diet, I would not try the keto diet, but as Mrrzy said early in this thread it has been studied as a diet to help with seizures so on that basis, I think it may have benefits.

I looked at the keto diet in more detail after reading this thread and I personally would not use it for weight loss. I have had success, back in the '80's with the Atkins diet, but more recently I have used the principles of the 5:2 Fast diet, the CSIRO diet based on a healthy balance of food, and diets which help with balancing the gut microbiome. All of these diets have similar principles, but each one has a specific approach and the principles of each are not in conflict so they all work together fairly well, in my own experience.

I am just a study of one person, but if each person who tries a diet looks at it critically, keeps monitoring health effects in consultation with medical or nutritional people, and has good outcomes, then a diet can be beneficial.

So, mg, your information on your experience with the keto diet is valid. If it works for you, then more power to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 08:47 PM

Thanks Donuel.

When I was grading undergraduate papers/essays, I would be awarding marks on papers which showed effective research or information gathering processes, effective evaluation and analysis of the facts, evidence and the review of other research, a good proposition of the theory or proposal in the paper, good evaluation and explanation of that proposal, good proposal and explanation of the process chosen for the study, good deductive logic and clear evaluation of whether the initial proposal of the paper was proved correct or whether further questions were raised and further study may be required.

Opinions and beliefs for the proposed study could be explained within the introductory part of the paper, but if opinions and beliefs were not sustained by the outcomes of the proper rigorous study, then they had no place in the final conclusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 09:49 AM

Most doctors know essentially nothing about nutrition. They get about two hours' lectures on it during an entire medical degree course. And only specialists will know anything about food intolerance and special dieta. Try finding one.

Dietitians are not much better. The standard text, by Bryony Thomas, used to cover diets for specific medical conditions but eliminated all that in the current edition. It seems to be intended to teach people how not starve patients in hospitals and nursing homes, and no more than that.

"See your doctor" isn't a lot of help.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 09:33 AM

Jos, I think that pretty much sums up the standard American diet, but you left out a few things:

Boxed mac&cheese
Pasteurized processed American cheese food
Cheeze Whiz [worse than cream from a can]
Heavily sugared breakfast cereal
Processed meats
Processed meal kits like Hamburger Helper, ShakeNbake
Cake mixes
Recipes that say Only 3 Ingedients but one is canned condensed soup
Instant Rice
...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 06:18 AM

pfr, the child I referred to earlier had an egg allergy, eczema and asthma. Cutting out the acid foods was to help with the eczema and cutting out dairy foods was to help with the asthma. That was based on advice given to me by his father. It appeared to be working because he had very little eczema and no asthma attacks in the two years that I knew him.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jos
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 06:06 AM

mg, what is a "standard american diet"?

My imagined version of it involves ham and eggs and pancakes and maple syrup (all on the same plate) for breakfast; burger or hot dog and fries with ketchup, washed down with coca-cola and/or milkshake, for lunch; and in the evening, T-bone steak with fries, or a barbecue, followed by apple pie and cream squirted from a can.
So plenty of protein and fats, but plenty of carbs as well.
I know the recipe thread comes up with many other suggestions of what Americans eat, but I rather think most mudcatters are not really "standard americans".
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 05:55 AM

Just under a year ago I cut out eating raw tomato with evening meals.
Trial and error to see if it had any relation to my IBS.

There does seem to have been an improvement.
But I can't quantify or prove it..

Throughout my life I've had to test cutting out various foods,
without any clear indication that it made a significant difference to eczema and gut problems...???

I stopped taking milk in tea nearly 40 years ago.
I just prefer it that way now.

I gave up cheddar cheese for a few years,
to test if it was an eczema trigger;
and, it was also on the banned list while taking gym training seriously..

That proved a sacrifice too far..
I'm a West country boy I needs my daily cheddar...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 05:45 AM

What makes you think that people who post in this thread are not consulting their doctor? Have you asked the question, or are you just leaping to conclusions again?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 05:41 AM

D'Adamo's "blood type diet" is pseudoscientific hokum.

Something not mentioned yet: substituting fruit and fruit sugars for sucrose is a very bad idea for some people. There are several different kinds of fructose intolerance, some of which can lead to life-threatening psychiatric or medical emergencies. None is very common but there are a lot of them and they're often misdiagnosed.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 05:31 AM

I'm currently staying on my own at a family home,
while I clear it out and close it down.

Right now my primary diet is frozen microwave ready meals,
plain salted crisps, and Quavers;
as I finish off whatever food was left in the house..

Healthily balanced by one apple and banana per day.

There's some tins of corned beef and various other canned items in the larder,
with expired best by dates going back 3 or 4 years..

.. and a bar of cadbury's chocolate which expired in 2019..

.. hhhhhhmmm.. if it was a post zombie apocalypse I'd have to risk eating anything I can find...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Feb 21 - 05:14 AM

The evidence for the long-term benefits of "keto" is thin and there are risks. It's very important that anyone who thinks they have a medical need to drastically alter their diet should consult a doctor. That would include anyone who thinks they "can't handle carbs." That strongly suggests a medical condition that needs professional attention. Otherwise, keto is just another fad diet, and not a very safe one. I'm posting this to counterbalance your enthusiastic advocacy, which I feel is somewhat misplaced.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: mg
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 09:43 PM

I am someone for whom the keto diet or similar is perfect. I do just great on high(er) fat..i could eat a pound of butter a day and not gain weight. One muffin a day and I probably would skyrocket. I am overweight by between twenty and thirty pounds. Could knock that back and will. Just had a perfect physical..except for toenails..TMI.

People keep saying if you go off keto you will gain weight. Of course you will. That means the keto type of diet is what you need. It is not for everyone. There was a book out years ago about body type..not blood type. Four types of diets worked for people..and I expect most were of North American heritage. one type did great with vegetarian, high carb. One did well with the "standard american diet." The kind that everyone is supposed to favor. The third group needed more protein and fat but lighter proteins like chicken and fish. The fourth group are the ones that they said became diabetic. They needed darker, heavier fats and proteins..red meat, sausage, butter, etc. If they do not eat like this, they tend to be diabetic. They..I..can not process carbohydrates. It sort of depends on what your ancestors thrived on..if you have ancestors from one place. I am Irish and Scots and other British and Dutch. Way back when there was lots of protein..Irish often were herdswomen. In the olden days they did not live on potatoes.

So they say to try a low carb diet for two weeks. If you feel ghastly, have digestive problems, stop it. Try a high carb diet in a bit. If you feel great, lose weight, that diet is for you.

If you feel great, as I do on low carb, higher fat, you will know pretty soon. Probably don't cold turkey but cut back continuously for a while. You should lose weight, and all test results should improve. This means this type of eating is for you. It is not for the others. If you feel great, you lose excess weight, you have more energy, your medical indexes are improving...you are OK'd for this...but you have to eat this way, more or less, always. You don't get to lose twenty pounds and go back to what made you gain twenty pounds in the first place. Trial and error...if you are eating the right foods, you will know it by how you feel and look. Guess what else..you might marry someone with different metabolism and ethnic heritage. you might eat differently. your children might have different needs. One might inherit your Nigerian metabolism and another your Korean and another your English. So you might all better learn how to cook.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 03:35 PM

That’s what I’ve always understood ‘seltzer’ to mean, Steve - carbonated water.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 01:55 PM

Is that fizzy water?

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 12:49 PM

By fruit juice, I mean a splash in a glass of seltzer. Not a glass of fruit juice.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 12:44 PM

We gave up fruit juice years ago. Instead, we eat an orange or a couple of tangerines each every day (there is so much tomato, green veg and potato in what we eat that we can definitely easily do without the citrus vitamin C, though fresh fruit contains fibre whereas juice contains next to none, and we like 'em). Fresh orange juice ("not from concentrate") contains about the same amount of sugar as, or even a bit more than, coca-cola. I'm a bit suspicious of grapefruit and grapefruit juice. I've heard things...and, let's face it, I can do without.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 12:39 PM

When I was in high school my Mum was diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes so we all cut back on sugar, gradually at first and then more completely over time. After I adjusted to the very low sugar lifestyle a sugary drink or cake would be a sudden shock to my system whereas, before cutting back, I would not have even noticed the sugar. I still don't eat much sugar and I don't miss it.

If you are interested, I have a couple of recipes for a fairly quick and easy orange and almond cake or chocolate brownies - both using processed almonds instead of flour. The cake has a few eggs so it is higher protein than the usual cake recipes. I never put much sugar in them. You could make them and freeze slices for sugar-hits. In case of sugar-hit emergencies, just open the freezer.

Different fruit can be used for the cake. The original recipe I saw was an apple cake.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 12:19 PM

Probably so, Helen.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 11:37 AM

Mrrzy, the three foods you mention are sugary, so maybe it's sugar which is the culprit for your mood swings, more than just plain carbs. Orange juice, even if it has no added sugar, still has fruit sugars which are quickly absorbed.

Although, I remember that in one of your early posts you also mentioned the keto is considered beneficial for seizures, so two different health issues.

Anyway, your sugar hit might have been exaggerated because you have cut down on sugar and then you threw three sugary hits into your body in a relatively short period of time. It might be worth considering eating a piece of fruit for a slower, more balanced release of sugar into your system.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 10:40 AM

Cornflakes came out absolute tops of one GI list I found. They have the same effect on me, Jack. I got round it slightly by chopping a banana into the bowl and putting a dollop of Yeo Valley on top. But now I just avoid 'em. I can't stand that starving-to-death feeling at 11.15 am. I'm a bit off breakfast cereals at the moment. I suppose the spray-on vitamins are at least of some use. Oatibix are low sugar and reliably filling, but it takes about four gallons of milk per three of them before you can stop them setting like concrete in the bowl.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 10:29 AM

Well, I was being really really rigorous because I had a doctor visit coming up. Then doc gets sick [how dare!] and appt put off for 10 days! Yikes! So I relax, put a tsp of maple syrup in my tea, drink some fruit juice, have a Kir... Not all at once, over about 4 days...

And look! I started losing patience with the whiners and would-be line-jumpers at the vax clinic where I volunteer, with thread drifters [not a crime!], with friends and family... Think I will go back to what I used to call Rigor but which has just mutated into Preference.

And I didn't even have spaghetti. All my relaxation was a bit of simple carbs here and there, which I had hitherto noted as making me *shake* but not get upset over trifles.

Now, it is also quite possible that my mental health is just fading because I have a mental illness, that maybe my [so far year-long] post-hospitalization remission is ending. If going back to Really No Carbs puts It back into my equanimity [a reach, that phrasing, I know], then great. I shall report back.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 09:10 AM

The high-GI food I have to avoid is cornflakes. Have them for breakfast and I get hypoglycaemic in the early afternoon unless I eat far too much in between. I know of other high-GI foods but that one is uniquely awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 07:33 AM

I've been trying to find a list of "culprit" high-GI carbs. Different sources are all over the place - but white pasta seems generally to come out "middling..."

Yeah, the full-length mirror is the enemy of the older man all right. My advice is always to look full-on, never side-view...

And why do some people insist on having a mirror over the bog so that men have to look at themselves peeing...sex discrimination I calls it...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 07:12 AM

It's getting on for 25 years since I started trying to become a dedicated fitness freak.
At my peak I felt and looked good.
Justifiably positive self-esteem
at age 40..
But I wasn't too narcissistic about it.
I never photographed myself, or trained in front of mirrors.
All I have is memories of how I felt to be fitter and stronger.

Now..
Right now, I'm away from home for a week or so taking care of urgent family business..

There is a bloody great big full length bathroom mirror right by the side of the toilet.
Yesterday I caught sight of my naked profile whilst having a pee.

What a shocker. What a huge belly.
Didn't realise it was that bad.
No wonder I can't bend and crouch anymore...!!!

I look like my dad did when I vowed never to end up looking like my dad..

That was when he was diagnosed as diabetic
due to his unhealthy factory workers lifestyle.
He snuffed it from a massive heart attack at 69.
I'm 62...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 06:26 AM

I've been trawling around the research regarding carbohydrates and mental health (some of it of questionable quality, mainly because of one-track-mindedness and the setting aside of significant confounding factors). The best research is that which seeks actual biochemical mechanisms which may influence brain function. There isn't any settled science as far as I can glean, in fact there's a bit of divergence between the pro-carb and anti-carb arguments. One conclusion that is largely agreed on is that highly-refined carbohydrates (sugars and white flour, for example) are in the "suspects" box - but, as I said, good science requires that we start to explain specific biochemical mechanisms. That's the only way to rule out confounding factors such as the pre-existing physical, physiological and mental state, lifestyle, gender, age and medical history of the people being studied. There's no question that high-GI carbs in large amounts (which are not natural components of the diet, except in small quantities) make blood sugar controlling mechanisms work hard and can cause undesirable ups and downs in that regard. A lot of the research has that as its starting point. I haven't found much convincing evidence that the more complex carbs that release their sugars into the bloodstream more steadily, via digestion and absorption, have had a finger pointed at them by rigorous research. Evidence is thin, and it ill-behoves anyone to advocate diets that rule out complex carbohydrates beyond saying "this seems to have helped me, but it may not apply to you, so seek good advice from medical professionals first..."

I'll keep looking...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 05:41 AM

From what I can remember of my gym dietitians approved,
strict but effective,
healthfully balanced muscle building and fat loss diet;
which I eventually became bored with after a few years of difficult self-discipline...

NO carbs after 6 p.m.

Go to bed every night suffering pangs of Hunger.

Have willpower or be fat.

Weight training lifestyle for health and fitness is positive and beneficial.
Despite being so puritanicly spartan and boring..

But competition bodybuilders have a self-destructive potentially suicidal streak
when they undertake health damaging rapid fat loss starvation and dehydration regimes in preparation for ripped muscle stage shows and photo shoots.

That is unnatural and in extreme cases lethal.

Particularly for boxers and other martial artists desperate to drastically lose weight overnight
in order to qualify for pre fight weigh-ins ...

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 05:36 AM

If that was aimed at me, cast out the plank...

I've said plenty about keto and low-carb diets to keep everyone unhappy for ages... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 04:50 AM

So you don't have any comment on the keto diet or low carb diets?

Mrrzy, the OP, has requested that we stick to the original topic. Please respect the wishes of the originator of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 21 - 04:40 AM

It's horses for courses apropos of oils for me. "Ordinary" olive oil is a no-no for me as it's way too refined. I have two grades of extra-virgin in the house, a less expensive Sicilian one (from Tesco) for cooking (it's bullshit that you shouldn't cook with extra virgin olive oil) and a classier one, either Sicilian or Tuscan, for sprinkling on finished pasta dishes or a pizza, or for salad dressing. For hot frying it's groundnut oil - neutral flavour and a high smoke point. For frying eggs, omelettes and fish, unsalted butter. We have a lovely Cornish source. For roasties, if there isn't enough fat from the meat I might use goose fat or beef dripping. It's gotta be about the end-product for me.

Just a tad naive, Mrrzy, to open up a controversial diet topic and not expect thread drift, huh?

For losing weight it's a great idea to acquaint oneself with the calorie content of different foods and take it from there. It's a start. For suspected food intolerances or for treating diabetes, where a drastic alteration in diet is indicated, proper medical advice is needed. That can't be said too often. Twice in the last two posts now.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Helen
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 11:09 PM

Thanks Mrrzy,

About 40 years ago I didn't stop eating carbs, I just changed the type of carbs by reducing the amount of white carbs like white rice, white bread, pasta and potatoes and increasing the amount and varieties of vegetables and legumes. Yes, I found that it helped me to lose weight, so I can't really help with your specific question but I found it fairly easy to make the switch to healthier carbs.

Greek salad was a magic bullet for me. I tried it on a day trip to Sydney, liked it, started making it for lunch every day at work and found, serendipitously, that I had lost weight. I was enjoying eating healthy, well-balanced meals and I had the added bonus of losing weight. When I reached my desired weight I just modified my eating plan to a longer term plan.

Since then I have only really gained weight about 20 years ago during a health-related episode which is now under control and whenever I have lost weight, I tend to keep it off. I am at a healthy weight at present, with a good BMI score.

As I said earlier, the concept of a keto diet rings an alarm bell for me because of the high fat aspect. It all depends on how you implement it and I have always consulted my doctor for expert advice before making major health-related changes.

As for fats, my go-to is olive oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Keto diet - anybody try it? Like it?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Feb 21 - 09:50 PM

Ok calm down y'all, I reiterate - carbs upset my mental health, so I am avoiding them, as I prefer sanity to spaghetti.

I am not advocating anybody else avoid them.

I am curious about people's experiences with avoiding them.

There is no weight control involved.

So complaints relating to weightloss do not apply to the original question.

Repetitions of opinions without experience do not apply either.

All I asked was have you tried this way of eating, and if so, did you like it. Unfortunately the word for This way of eating is Diet, but I clarified that I did not mean weightloss regimen early on.

So back to the original question: have you yourself ever tried to eliminate carbs from your usual food intake, and if so, did you enjoy your usual food, and the way it treated you? If not, then, never mind, no need to post here about how you are not answering the question.

Especially no need to argue with other people, whether they are answering the question or not.

And really no need to tell anybody whose opinion differs from yours that they are wrong.

I now return you to the thread already in progress.