Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 10:38 AM

Jeri, I have a website www.dickmiles.com that is there for the purpose of selling cds etc.
what, i am saying amongst other things is that the criteria for having an entry is out dated.
2. i have enough to do without doing other professional performers entries,
3 wiki tries to give the impression thtat it is comprehensive and at this stage it is not.
4. however this night change if perfomers who are missing are sufficiently computer savvy to do this orhave the journalistic skills which i do not , of course some of the older perfomers are not, and why should they be?
their skills lie in playing music not being journalists.
I have every right to criticise something that appears to be or gives the impression of being comprehensive when it is not
5. for all these reasons i think[personally] it is more important to have a website than a wiki entry, of course if someone who has journalistic skills, wishes to do this for me i would be happy about it.
6Jeri as usual you make assumptions that i have not tried or that other performers have not tried, we are musicians not journalists , when i want a website i go to a website designer. something i cannot do myself.
7. we have to do what we are skilled at.why should a musician be expected to be a journalist or a website designer

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 10:01 AM

In short, you can't complain about what "somebody" hasn't included when "somebody" is you, and you haven't bothered to try.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 09:57 AM

Sandman:

So , since you do the wiki reviews on folk musicians and singers , you make the decision on who you include on wiki.,sois it your decision as to who you include on wiki?
I find it unfathomable that you have not included....

Well it is a post that is factually accurate, there are glaring obvious omissions...

Not even. Wiki does not engage in prior restraint. It's not even possible. ie: A subject, any subject, cannot be excluded until it after it has been (improperly) included.

What you don't know about the work flow is the only problem you have at present.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 09:24 AM

Jumping to the bottom here to point out that Wikipedia is a place where YOU can add content if you think it needs to be there.

-30-

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 08:56 AM

Tirade?,
Well it is a post that is factually accurate, there are glaring obvious omissions, but in fairness it is composed by volunteer enthusiastic amateurs, so one must expect some degree of amateurishness, Tony, by your own admission you are partly responsible for some entries.
Therefore, it is what it is, at present limited, in its information,and not a comprehensive up to date professional picture of the uk folk revival in 2021
plus one must query one of the criteria for an entry, why? well ..in 2021 most top peformers produce their own recordings, this was an idea that was started by MacColl/Seeger, to avoid getting ripped off by recording businessmen, sadly not everyone did this and some got ripped off by Bulmer and others
So the necessity in 2021 for perfomers to be refused an entry because they have produced their own recordings is outdated

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 07:16 AM

Doc Rowe would be a high priority because he has so many links across the folk scene.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 06:43 AM

Dick, I find your tirade somewhat strange. I do not write or control Wikipedia (which has its own policies, not set by me), although I have contributed some articles to it. Blaming me for something that is not my creation is simply odd. As for omissions, it is for the world of interested parties to fill them, which is something that I and the original poster attempt to encourage. Just sayin'... Perhaps you can get your facts right before sounding off here any further.

Cordially - Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 05:42 AM

I find it remarkable how many noted concertina singers players are not mentioned on wiki.Steve Turner Lea Nicholson Roy Clinging Robert Harbron Dick Miles Dave Townsend, does someone have it in for players of accidental collisions, watch out for your bellows.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 04:53 AM

In your example, "doing gigs for 45 years plus and having run folk clubs and a festival" does not automatically qualify a person for inclusion as a Wikipedia article subject, but if they have done something notable enough to have an article written about them by a third party elsewhere, and/or satisfied one of the other criteria as mentioned above, that should do the trick... quote
   
So , since you do the wiki reviews on folk musicians and singers , you make the decision on who you include on wiki.,sois it your decision as to who you include on wiki?
I find it unfathomable that you have not included Tony Rose ,Doc Rowe, Bob Copper Pete Coe Tony Hall Nick Dow Richard Grainger
So, you decide who you consider important enough to be included in wiki. it sounds like you are saying that my contribution to the uk folk scene is not notable enough to warrant inclusion.
WIKI is written by amatuers [volunteeres without pay] about professionals,
we are back to the same scenario, as the amateurs who wrote reviews about professional musicians gigs and cds, and in effect have a say in their musical careers, the scenario of one persons subjective opinion,    ...fortunately with the advent of internet listening you tube etc the power of journalistic reviewers has diminished.

Tony,
in the past i have done all five of the following requirements
Key to these are (1) "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself", and/or (5) "Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable)", and/or (12 "Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or television network
1 The Observer book of Folk Music.Article in The Living Tradition, Folk Roundabout etc Mardles etc etc
5 recordings with so called independent notables, Martin Carthy Jez Lowe Sara Grey and/ or 12. Folk on 2 several times, Anglia Television
I have in fact answered all the above criteria Iawait your response with anticipation, however i feel i might might be rather like waiting for a no53 bus
yours cordially not Tunbridge Wells

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 04:11 AM

Hi Ray, at least some of these already have articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewan_MacColl
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._L._Lloyd

As well as this overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_folk_revival

(None of these anything to do with my efforts)

So I am not sure quite what you are saying.

Of course if there are online video recordings of relevance, once identified, they can easily be linked (by any wikipedia editor, or in fact anyone) to the articles in question.

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 03:39 AM

I have seen little in the way of the revivalist singers from the 1950s 60s and 70s ~ the likes of Ewan, Bert and the early folk club artists mentioned above ~ maybe the powers that be thought they would all go away shortly, of course the Communists were not flavour of the month in US with Pete Seeger, the Almanacs, the Weavers ~ Woody Guthrie and CND etc which may not have helped the recording of British singers ~more tendency to look towards the singer songwriters of the era
The song history seems to be all around the "revival" perhaps lost for ever or not recorded ~ which is a pity ~ I know that audio recordings were made in folk clubs but what about early visual recordings that could be collated and shown and committed to the folk song historical archive

Ray

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 02:18 AM

Hi Dick, I suspect that perhaps you are referring to something other than Wikipedia?? n any case, from the "about Wikipedia" page:

" - Wikipedia is an online free-content encyclopedia project helping to create a world in which everyone can freely share in the sum of all knowledge

- Wikipedia is written collaboratively by largely anonymous volunteers who write without pay

- Wikipedia is a live collaboration differing from paper-based reference sources in important ways. It is continually created and updated, with articles on new events appearing within minutes, rather than months or years. Because everybody can help improve it, Wikipedia has become more comprehensive than any other encyclopedia."

The only limitation on Wikipedia articles are that the subjects have to satisfy some criteria of "notability", in other words, reliable secondary sources (other than the subject or person concerned) have deemed that they are worth writing about; otherwise every person in the world could have an entry (which is not the purpose of Wikipedia, i.e. it is not a directory).

In my experience, Wikipedia articles are useful in that they are a single point to collate (and in some cases, make sense of) otherwise scattered, published information existing "somewhere", as well as propagate it to the world. Hence the original poster's desire, to see more articles about noteworthy folk musicians, so that information on them becomes more widely disseminated and recognised outside our "folk" silo, where appropriate of course, as well as providing an education resource for present and future interested persons.

In your example, "doing gigs for 45 years plus and having run folk clubs and a festival" does not automatically qualify a person for inclusion as a Wikipedia article subject, but if they have done something notable enough to have an article written about them by a third party elsewhere, and/or satisfied one of the other criteria as mentioned above, that should do the trick...

I was a bit sceptical about the value and quality of wikipedia content until around 2006, by which time it had been going for 5 years and was beginning to provide a useful place to look up various technical terms useful for my employmennt, and was pleasantly surprised at how far it had got, on a voluntary contribution basis. Now it is better still of course, but still many slightly lesser known (but arguably notable) persons can be missing from its coverage. It is up to suitably motivated individuals to carry on adding and improving content as they feel the urge, and have time available. Personally I enjoy the challenge, on occasion, of doing the required background sleuthing either to improve a current article, or create a new one from scratch. - keeps my brain alive. I also enjoy singing and playing - the 2 (or 3) are not mutually exclusive!

- Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 12:34 AM

No , I suppose having been involved doing gigs for 45 years plus and having run folk clubs and a festival, I should be mentioned.
I understand that people set the wiki up themselves.Frankly i would rather spend my time at the moment playing music supprting folk clubs by doing virtual zooms . what is the point of being famous in the folk world if there are no folk clubs left

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: cnd
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 08:48 PM

Yes Tony, you were the person I had in mind.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 08:30 PM

Tony,

Brian was probably the most important member of The Bushwhackers, he was the peacemaker & provided the beat with his lagerphone.

He is also important in that pic - he hadn't allowed a broken bone to keep him from the gig! Tho Cecil played his lagerphone to keep them on the beat.

sandra

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 06:44 PM

I am presuming the "mudcat person with wikipedia experience" alluded to a few posts back was myself...

You might like to see this example article for Australian traditional singer Sally Sloane as one that is somewhat more fleshed-out than the Bob Fox one, also something I have created reasonably recently (since one's writing style adapts to the nature of the medium over time, hopefully). Good luck to all who venture down the Wikipedia contributions path!

- Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 05:55 PM

Sounds good ... the hardest part is walking the fine line between what others will agree (over time) is of general / educational interest to the world outside, and what is really trivia ... I may have overstepped it myself in the Bushwhackers article, where I wrote: "Brian Loughlin (obscured) was seated behind Kempster; his left leg (with carpet slipper) is just visible in this photograph.", but hey, one man's trivia is another man's vital information perhaps :)

Cheers - Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 04:08 PM

Thanks Tony, this is really useful. I think I'm going to attempt one for Doc Rowe, then perhaps Bob Copper. If no-one else does, I might try a Tony Rose one, too!

I actually found your Bob Fox page at the weekend, when looking to see whether Benny Graham (a 2020 EFDSS Gold Badge winner) had a page of his own. I think the only Wiki-presence he has is the mention of his and Bob's collaborations on the page you wrote.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 02:47 PM

RE the above: I should add that Wikipedia articles can / should include images, but only those that have (generally) been uploaded to Wikimedia Commons (a separate operation) under an appropriate licence, so as to be freely re-usable(generally with attribution). So as a parallel activity, I have digitised a number of my folk and other music-related images (as well as those in other realms) and uploaded them to Wikimedia Commons, such that I and others can use them in Wikipedia articles and anywhere else (for current list see this link), and I would strongly encourage others to do the same, unless you plan to extract commercial revenue from them down the track (not a consideration in my case: more an effort to avoid loss to posterity in due course, when all my possessions are sent to the tip or the nearest charity shop on my demise...)

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Tony Rees
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 01:57 PM

I have created and/or extended (from bare bones) a number of Wikipedia articles in the past, for folk (and other) based artists. To avoid controversy and the possibility of deletion, it is necessary to establish that the subject is "notable" by Wikipedia standards (I have on occasion fallen foul of this). Key to these are (1) "Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself", and/or (5) "Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable)", and/or (12 "Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or television network" (these are a subset of 12 criteria set out at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(music)). Most of the persons mentioned above would have no trouble meeting these criteria, I would say.

I am pretty busy at the moment on other tasks of a public service nature (science not music) but offer the above as a hint to others who may be interested. Note that there is plenty of scope for using Wikipedia as a "holding place" for relevant info providing that it can all be adequately sourced; or even a "bare bones" start can be useful for others to carry further.

Pages I have created or added to generally start off small (ish) but can grow into something more extensive. For an example small one, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Fox_(musician); for something longer (more of an essay / mini research project!) see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bushwhackers_(band) .

Once something is created, others may well jump in over time and extend or, sometimes, delete / change portions of your work, but them's the breaks, and it is best not to get too hung up on that unless one views the changes as definitely undesirable and is prepared to argue the toss.

Regards - Tony

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: cnd
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 01:51 PM

There's a user here who's contributed to several folk-related Wiki threads who may chime in, but I can't recall their name atm

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 01:46 PM

Cheers Jack, I browse Folkopedia too, but I do feel it would be good to ensure that folk isn't hidden in a corner - there's so much to be gained in terms of interest and awareness from the warren of Wiki-rabbit holes formed by having present, well-linked content on that major platform.

Also, I'm not suggesting that people submit primary content, anecdotes, reminisces etc, which as you say would be neither accepted by, nor appropriate for, Wikipedia. But, people with the levels of knowledge found on these boards are superbly well-positioned to make accurate, well-sourced/thoroughly referenced contributions to the Wikiverse.

Subject: RE: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 01:38 PM

Wikipedia doesn't accept primary source material.

Use Folkopedia instead?

Subject: Key folk figures absent from Wikipedia?
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 01:29 PM

Hello all - I keep noticing how many important figures from the English folk music and dance community are without Wikipedia pages of their own;

I first began to register this when searching for individuals who turned out to be lacking named entries - including Bob Copper, Phoebe Smith, Tony Rose and Pete, Chris & Sue Coe, to name but 6.

In addition, I note that many recipients of EFDSS's Gold Badge Award are also lacking their own entry - including the likes of Dr Ian Russell and Malcolm Taylor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Folk_Dance_and_Song_Society#EFDSS_Gold_Badge_Awards

...This forum is a goldmine of authoritative (and often first-hand) knowledge of these and other luminaries, which might yet be lost if not captured over the next decade or two... It could be a vital contribution to the legacy of the UK folk community, to harness this expertise within a universal platform like Wikipedia.

Do any of you actively contribute to Wikipedia at the moment - on folk-related topics, or anything else?

Thanks for any/all thoughts on the matter!