BS: Belief in Technology

Subject: BS: Belief in Technology
From: JHW
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 06:39 AM

In the UK we've just had many Postmasters/mistresses convictions quashed. The PO prosecuted and ruined hundreds in the belief thar the Horizon computer system couldn't be wrong.
Someone was done for a parking fine because robots spotted them entering a car park but didn't twig they had only been there twice for a moment and not continuously.
Again the computer was believed rather than the individual. Why? Justice came to both eventually but why should a computer be presumed infallible?

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 07:34 AM

Computers are not fallible,
that is obvious to anybody with any sense or honesty.

The fallible element in the post office case
appears to be unscrupulous high up post office managers who knew there was something wrong with the software but didn't care,
and would rather blame loyal honest post office workers to maintain a cover up...???

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 11:50 AM

The postmasters/mistresses thing was shocking: many lives ruined by it, and it has taken so long to get the sentences quashed.

My husband got a ticket through the post after parking on 2 consecutive days in the same car park in Livingston, Scotland (sent from some parking agency in the S of England!!) - based on number-plate recognition on entering and leaving the car park. It alleged he had been there for 23 hours! We just wrote back and said, "check again: he was there for an hour on each of 2 days" - AND "no-one in their right mind would leave their car unattended in that car park for 23 hours". We never heard any more. In any case it was one of those private company tickets which are not legally enforceable.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 11:59 AM

Someone please provide a link to the post office story this seems to be discussing.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 01:17 PM

BBC post Office Scandal

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Apr 21 - 02:40 PM

BBC Radio 4 are repeating their series on the Post Office scandal at the moment

The Great Post Office Trial

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Apr 21 - 03:03 AM

appears to be unscrupulous high up post office managers who knew there was something wrong

Someone saving their skin, and maybe a backhander over original installation. In one case a man went to jail and has since died. Imagine the penury, suffering, and implied shame when you know you are innocent.

In the early days of businesses discovering PCs quite a few firms used them to dispense with one employee, one reason they were employed being as a check on the other's integrity. Managers saw the job as computation, not security. Basically not reading the whole job specs long after they were devised.

My belief is in human nature. All of it, the kind, the young cyclists who say thankyou when you stand aside, and the greedy, and the stoopid. I believe in them because it arms me when I encounter the less rewarding aspects. And I entuse in responsible yoof - it gives me hope for mankind. Ooer, philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: JHW
Date: 25 Apr 21 - 05:52 AM

Actually this is more reassuring than I had hoped. Seems I'm not the only one who treats Technology with a pinch of salt.
My kitchen CD player reckoned every one of my CDs was faulty. Was lying. The laser was at fault. I guessed that!

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Apr 21 - 09:24 AM

They fitted up the postmistress in our village that way. Then closed the PO and have never reopened it.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 21 - 09:30 AM

Coming from a technology background I know full well how flawed software can be. It is, after all, written by humans! Like anything else though there is good and bad. We should never rely entirely on technology but then again we should not rely on human nature either.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Jos
Date: 25 Apr 21 - 09:40 AM

A few years ago I had been to a local supermarket and had quite a few bags of shopping. I was about a mile from home but the bags were heavy and I decided to get a bus. I went to the electronic machine to check when the next bus was due, and put in my destination.
The machine told me to get a bus to Bracknell, and then get a bus to west London. From there I was to get another bus back to the supermarket where I was, in order to get a bus to my home - a round trip of over 60 miles.
At that point, my bus arrived and I was home in about 15 minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 01:38 AM

absolutely disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 01:59 AM

you would have thought post office investigators would have realised that it was extraordinary that so many post office sub post managers were all dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 03:21 AM

and as for the NSFP leader,and their leader and his lack of support.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: JHW
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 06:04 AM

I'm relistening to the replay of the BBC R4 programme each morning and still aghast at the ruination of lives. We still have a PO in the next village but I've never dared ask if they were affected.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 08:03 AM

It's a mess isn't it.

I don't believe a system should be considered infallible but did once get someone in serious trouble (possible sacking or final warning) over fiddling in my short time in a factory.

Just the count of an assembly going wrong there and I said the only way I could see what was happening was false figures. We set a trap where the count of one component (there were only two, a pin pressed into a housing to make a hinge) was verified before being issued and she was caught out. Silly woman, she couldn't have known who/what I was (and was only a junior in rank but with responsibilities for the day to day running of the MRP system and with a posh job title of "Systems coordinator" but should have seen someone strange counting objects indicated someone knew something was amiss was around.

The count of the cabinets (welded assemblies into which the innards of front loaders and tumble driers went, the cabs having been sent round overheads to the lines) also had a problem which for a few weeks meant me coming in on Sundays when there was no production to set count and set things straight. I'm not sure what happened there except to say the works manager visited me and asked if I thought a "policeman" could help to which I answered ~"yes". I've no idea what he did but the problem went away.

Where do I go from there... I guess things can go wrong either way, system or people. From what I've read on the Horizon affair, I think the action of the higher brass should be considered criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 10:48 AM

The NFSP are funded by the Post Office, so not too much of a surprise about the way they behaved.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 11:26 AM

I heard something on the radio about this last night, possibly the same, perhaps related? The woman who used to run the postal service was there when a computer scandal happened, and has now finished training to become a minister in the Anglican church? I had the impression the woman had supervised a colonial postal service though.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 11:30 AM

Here - though this is from the Daily Mail and that seems to post less reliable news. I heard it on a world news radio program on NPR.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 01:54 PM

I've just been listening to the BBC Post Office stories which I happened upon a couple of days ago. Aghast at the ability to forestall questions with the excuse that the computer can't be wrong, and the outright lie: "You're the only one with this problem!"!

Also they've hinted that a helicopter crash was influenced by software and that relates to the Post Office story.

And it need not involve computers. There are many cases of incompetence or bad decisions being backed up by the authorities to the detriment of the very institutions they are supposed to be upholding. To quote Donald Trump: "SAD!"

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 04:08 PM

My wife was talking to the guy who operated our village post office today. He said they were lucky not to end up in prison - accused of stealing £14,000.

He's Indian. A large proportion of post offices in the UK have come under South Asian ownership in the last generation - probably low financial barriers to entry. Makes you wonder if some PO auditor just decided to go after any manager called Pillai, Khan or Singh.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 06:12 PM

There has been no suggestion that people were prosecuted due to their racial origins. Seems an odd thing to bring up.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 07:12 PM

In the BBC show which I finished listening to this morning, one of the first people that was in touch with Nick Wallace, the reporter, sounded to be of Indian extraction. I think her background played a part in her naivete that the system would initially be beneficent, then that the system would discover the truth, when in reality the system put her in stir. She was pregnant and innocent.

I was very disappointed in the denoument, in that the Post Office was not really severely fined, the hundreds of cases where people were found guilty were not delineated and dismissed, though this was on the horizon, and as far as I could tell the miscreants and liars behind the depositions of the Post Office didn't get hauled over the coals.

It made me think about the great differences between America and Gt. Britain. I can't speak for the actual lay of things, but the English seem to think they live in a land of whales and mice, Americans think they live in a land of bears and wolverines. In the former, the little guy barely has a chance and is lucky to get out alive, in the latter the wolverine is a lot smaller, but figures with teeth and gristle he can brazen it out. It may have ramifications with our respective attitudes about firearms as well.

I also believe that Americans of the U.S. persuasion don't understand that the English Post Office is not like the United States version. The PO in England and other Commonwealth countries was historically kind of an amalgam of IBM, the Bank of America, with government connections. It is not only huge, everpresent, but is in the imagination omnipotent and incorruptible. It was almost a manifestation of the Almighty. I don't think that is as true today as it used to be forty years ago, but it's still a major institution.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Apr 21 - 07:33 PM

The reason there has been no suggestion racism was involved may well be because BBC journos are gutless toadies who wouldn't dare say it.

It would be very easy to check if anyone wanted to.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 28 Apr 21 - 02:25 AM

So now the BBC are involved with the Post Office cover up?

I have seen no mention of racial prejudice being a part of this scandal. It would seem that you do have such evidence. If so please point us in the right direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 21 - 02:51 AM

there were cses mentioned and the people interviewed were not all asian some sounded like white people, however we do not iknow the exact racial breakdown of the postmasters affected

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Jos
Date: 28 Apr 21 - 05:13 AM

As Jack Campin pointed out, 'A large proportion of post offices in the UK have come under South Asian ownership'

I don't know what the proportion is, but it is no surprise if, as a result, a similar proportion of the people falsely accused will have been of Asian origin. I have seen and heard interviews with a number of white British victims as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 21 - 06:24 AM

any way the post office superiors, seem to have got away with ruiing many innocent peoples lives and livelihoods ,absolute disgarce

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: JHW
Date: 29 Apr 21 - 06:01 AM

I've heard most of the R4 reports when originally broadcast and again currently. I haven't heard any racial slur.
In the 1984 novel justice was seen to be done as long as someone paid, maybe not the culprit. One day a robot may knock on my door and shoot me. Might be the wrong door, duff gps or whatever but trust in technology will have become the norm and it will be nobody's fault.
I note that the car park number recognition scam is not unique, actual story in the post above is not the one that resulted in summons in news.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Apr 21 - 06:20 AM

Private Eye printed a 6 page report on the Post Office scandal in issue 1519 in April last year. It was co-written by Richard Brooks and Nick Wallis, the presenter of the BBC Radio 4 series.

Wallis has his own website on the scandal, postofficetrial.com, the following link will take you to the page on his site where you can download the Private Eye report.

Justice lost in the post

Well worth a read.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 May 21 - 02:24 AM

I went to the electronic machine to check when the next bus was due, and put in my destination.

The local website bus finder website does that. I use it to check the times, I already have a good idea of bus numbers.

It regularly routes you on several buses, and has for 4 years. One example takes you from A to B with a change of bus that uses the later roads as A2B and terminates in the same bus station. Leaving you without shelter for 20 minutes, instead of in the station with a drink and warm. A revenue extender for the spnsoring bus companies!

Aylesbury is no better, their electronic timetable shows a discrepency of 5 mins to the paper one. I got my drink and missed the bus, the drivers' cabin insisted the bus went out on time. You couldn't tell them what was wrong, they wouldn't listen. Not there job mate!

You can tell the bus companies, and the local authority, but they just shuttle the problem back and forth.

I shudder to rely on smart phone apps. Always using the penultimate bus home.

There is always the car - which is what I intend doing in rural Wales. because it is even less familiar territory. If the Gov is serious about climate change, this is one area of reducing car usage that is paid merely lip service.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 May 21 - 10:49 AM

I've heard most of the R4 reports when originally broadcast and again currently. I haven't heard any racial slur.

Most racial persecution doesn't involve slurs at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 May 21 - 04:32 AM

the impression i got was that over 500 postmasters of different racial backgrounds were unfairly victimised. jack why dont you contact the journalist and get his opinion

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: JHW
Date: 03 May 21 - 05:37 AM

I haven't dared get a bus since covid as folks always shut all the windows. The bus still comes but is empty.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 May 21 - 08:41 AM

"Between 2000 and 2014, the Post Office prosecuted 736 sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses - an average of one a week - based on information from a recently installed computer system called Horizon."

And

"The Post Office has set up a historic shortfall scheme designed to repay those who lost out, but this excludes those who were part of the High Court settlement.

More than 2,400 claims have been made to the scheme. Ministers said this was more than the Post Office expected and held the potential for the government having to step in to cover some of the cost."

Post Office Scandal - BBC 23rd April 2021

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 May 21 - 08:18 PM

DMinisters who didn't help

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 May 21 - 05:00 AM

On BBC radio 4 tomorrow, Monday 1st June at 20.00 hours

The Reckoning

The Great Post Office Trial

In a follow up to the ten-part series The Great Post Office Trial, Nick Wallis explores how campaigners for justice around the Post Office scandal have been continuing the fight, and reveals startling new details on the story which have emerged in court.

Since the original series aired, the government has officially launch an inquiry, chaired by Sir Wyn Williams. But many are frustrated by what they fear is the inquiry's limited scope, and worry that the inquiry will not dive deep enough or hold individuals accountable. Some Sub Postmasters are also seeking further legal redress, and attempting to pressure the government to cover the Sub Postmasters' costs from the initial trial.

As the potential cases of miscarriage of justice work their way through the Court of Appeal, Nick discovers revelatory new documents which cast fresh light on what was going on inside the Post Office as the scandal unfolded.

And we hear newly emerged stories of more Sub Postmasters affected, as the full scale of the story becomes clear.

The Great Post Office Trial: The Reckoning

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 31 May 21 - 01:01 PM

On BBC Radio 4 today, The Digital Human had approx 15 - 20 minutes on the Post Office software problem and the repercussions for one sub post mistress.

Most banks, airlines even the military use legacy software because to replace it costs millions. Instead, as companies grow or change, old software is merged with new software. Aleks hears about ‘technical debt’, when software engineers who create original software code leave or move on, taking their expertise with them. Without proper knowledge of the old code, maintaining legacy software can become problematic and leave a company or organisation vulnerable to technical bugs. The damage brought by thee bugs can leave a legacy of its own. And Aleks asks whether the software is really to blame?

The Digital Human : Legacy

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: JHW
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 06:15 AM

Thanks for last posts. I heard the Post Office programme but the paragraph 'Most banks etc. shows just my fear, way beyond my understanding of tech. We hear of international hacks, a pipeline shut down recently... so why does anyone BELIEVE technology is infallible?

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: BobL
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 02:13 AM

" why does anyone BELIEVE technology is infallible?"

I don't think anyone does actually believe it, certainly not the ones who create and maintain it (such as myself). However the technology includes measures to limit the effects of hidden faults, and as long as it continues to work without problems, users will regard the risks as acceptably contained.

"One can eliminate human errors via software... but one may not eliminate human errors embedded in software ;-) And one CAN eliminate humans due to errors in software."

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Jul 21 - 01:57 PM

Sub--postmasters wrongly convicted of offences in a Post Office IT scandal will get interim compensation of up to £100,000, the government has said.

As of this week, a total of 59 former sub-postmasters have had their convictions quashed - with more due in court over the coming months.

More people have been affected by the scandal than in any other miscarriage of justice in the UK.

The government has agreed to fund the initial payments.

Those affected can still seek extra compensation at a later date, via mediated settlements or through the civil courts. Some of those claims could add up to millions of pounds.

Post Office scandal

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jul 21 - 03:26 PM

I heard the news this morning about the 'interim' payments.

People are still using the expression "the computer made a mistake." which is right up there with "the dog ate my homework".

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: BobL
Date: 23 Jul 21 - 01:51 AM

"This typewriter can't spell!" (old Goon Show line attr. Spike Milligna)

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: JHW
Date: 23 Jul 21 - 06:13 AM

The law used to say 'follow the money'. So where did it go?

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: BobL
Date: 24 Jul 21 - 02:00 AM

"All money nowadays seems to be produced with a natural homing instinct for the Treasury" -- Prince Philip on British taxes, 1963.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Jul 21 - 04:06 AM

The law used to say 'follow the money'. So where did it go?

In some cases it went to the customers of the Royal Mail because the withdrawal didn't register in their bank account, in others it went to Royal Mail. Maybe, just maybe the error would not be spotted until a full audit of stock was made, and that would be several days later. Remembering a specific transaction amongst 100 would be impossible without the clues.

Some of the errors between two computers/terminals might be errors outside the software's domain **. ie hardware. Did they all use battery back-up? If not, the system design is at fault.

** but within the software's need to cope with it - ie fault tolerant

I well remember the Lundun Ambulance emergency phone service in the early 90s. The winning bid to provide came in at 2 million GBP, but "Tandem Computer" bid 10 (clue in the name, they know about fail-soft). The first winter was cold, and 'flu struck. The service hit its limit and chaos ensued. Why oh why does the world think the word redundancy is about shedding waste. The word means insurance/backup/contingency. Like car insurance. Perfect drivers like me don't need it, but why do I take it out? Yea unforeseen circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: JHW
Date: 24 Jul 21 - 08:35 AM

My thought was if Horizon insisted Xgrand was owing and the poor shop paid up that real money is somewhere?
Like the PP 1963 conclusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Jul 21 - 03:39 PM

in the customers hand and still in their bank account. That was one scenario. And known examples involved two separate computers that had to communicate, and one had some glitch power maybe, over heating, it happens. But the system allowed the transaction to be sent to head office, but not to the other computer. That is definitely bad programming.

In the early days of computing they had a system of keystroke logging as a back-up. Modern terminals and systems are far too complicated for that.

I saw a case yesterday in the Folk Museum at a Folk Day. The till had a 7 inch monitor thingy with a touch card logo/area. People presented their contactless card and most (me too) went all over the surface to find the C-spot. Then up comes the receipt options, I was about to go for "print" when they entered another transaction and my options disappeared. No way to get the paperwork!
The thing offered e-mail receipt - apart from the time it would take, do I give it away to every trivial vendor?

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: JHW
Date: 27 Jul 21 - 05:40 AM

I never used contactless until covid but of course now use it all the time. I 'hope for the best' on less than a fiver, eg a coffee but ask for a receipt for a basket of groceries. I've been offered the fond email receipt too. Always check bank statement, Paper A5 Diary says where I've been so likely coffee etc.

New topic but same headline I've heard of bank customers locked out of their account, presumably by robots and no explanation available from the bank itself, and no routine peyments made by the bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Nov 21 - 09:57 AM

From the BBC

Post Office scandal: 'It’s been a strange 15 years'

"A former Post Office worker who has waited 15 years for justice is celebrating today with "a nice cup of tea".

Anthony Gant, of Newtown in Powys, was wrongly convicted of false accounting back in 2007, when software showed his branch to be short of more than £14,550.

He was one of six more former Post Office workers to have their criminal convictions overturned at Southwark Crown Court on Thursday.

Mr Gant's case was heard alongside Amanda and Norman Barber, of Warrington, who ran the Thelwall Post Office in 2011, Mohammed Aslam of Newport who ran the Post Office in Albion Square, Balbir Grewal of Romford who ran the Hockwell Ring Post Office, and David Hughes of Cockermouth in Cumbria.

Mr Gant was supported by his wife Kirsty and step-daughter Megan.

"It feels absolutely fantastic," Mr Gant told the BBC. "It has been a very strange 15 years.""


I found this part more disturbing.

"Sir Wyn Williams is chairing the independent public inquiry tasked with getting to the bottom of why the Post Office brought so many of its employees to court, and why it fought against the overturning of those convictions for decades.

The Post Office had big legal teams working for them throughout the process, and Sir Wyn wants to see records of conversations between the Post Office and its lawyers to find out what was going on behind the scenes.

Those documents are protected by what's known as legal professional privilege, but Sir Wyn has asked the Post Office to give up that right.

The government and Fujitsu have said that's fine. The Post Office has been more cautious, saying it is willing "in principle" to waive that right, but not necessarily in every circumstance.

However, Sir Wyn has said if there is anything withheld by the Post Office that he considers relevant he may force them to reveal it publicly."


Hard to believe that they appear to be still trying to cover their tracks.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 05:03 PM

From the BBC


"The government has agreed to foot the bill for the compensation of former Post Office workers who were falsely convicted of theft in the long-running Horizon saga.

The Post Office has said they are unable to cover the payments for the exonerated individuals.

As the Post Office's only shareholder, the government has now agreed to pay, as first reported by Sky News.

Details are set to be announced in Parliament as early as Tuesday.

After that, discussions about final settlement figures can begin with the individuals involved.

The Department for Business said that the impact on postmasters' lives and livelihoods "cannot be overstated"."

And

"A spokesperson from the Department for Business said that the government was "committed to seeing these longstanding Horizon issues resolved" and that it would provide financial support as well as interim compensation payments for those workers with overturned convictions.

"We are also learning what went wrong through the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry, and ensuring something like this cannot happen again," they added."

Cannot happen again? We shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 08:27 AM

From The Guardian

"UK taxpayers could have to pay as much as £1bn in compensation to former Post Office workers wrongly convicted of theft due to the defective Horizon IT system.

The system, which was installed by the Post Office and supplied by Fujitsu, falsely suggested there were cash shortfalls, leading to 736 unsafe convictions for theft, fraud and false accounting in what is one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in British legal history.

The Post Office has said it cannot afford to foot the huge cleanup bill for the scandal and last month the government, the service’s only shareholder, confirmed the taxpayer would step in.

This weekend new details of the potential magnitude of the compensation programme emerged."

The article contains a link to The Post Office Scandal blog by the journalist Nick Wallis, which gives details as to how this news was discovered. It makes for interesting reading.

Nick Wallis added a note to his blog post, pointing out that this story had originally been noted by Karl Flinders in Computer Weekly

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 04:35 AM

Shown on BBC1 last night.

Panorama - The Post Office Scandal

"The Post Office is responsible for the most widespread miscarriage of justice in British legal history. For nearly two decades, the scandal saw hundreds of men and women who ran post offices in towns and villages across the country accused of losing or stealing money, when in reality, a computer system could have been to blame. This Panorama special tells the story of those whose lives were utterly devastated, reveals the damning evidence that was kept from them and investigates how and why the Post Office, a multinational tech company and the government covered up the truth for so long."

The BBC published the following article about the programme.

Post Office scandal victims still waiting for compensation

"The quest for accountability

A public inquiry into the scandal has spent the first two months hearing harrowing evidence from former subpostmasters in England and Wales, and will travel to Northern Ireland and Scotland in May to hear the human impact of the decisions taken by Post Office bosses.

However, all victims are hoping that someone within government, the Post Office and Fujitsu, who made the Horizon software, will be held to account. But the calling of those witnesses will not get underway until the autumn, as the inquiry has announced another delay in its progress.

Noel Thomas, who was wrongly jailed for nine months on a charge of false accounting, said he wants those in charge to feel some consequences. "People in their position, being paid a lot of money, hiding the truth; make them feel like I felt when I lost everything overnight," he told Panorama.

That celebration at the High Court last year marked a huge achievement for victims fighting a seemingly impossible battle, but it has certainly not been the end of the story."

++

I don't know how long this inquiry will take and then how long the subsequent legal cases will rumble on. No doubt the Post Office and Fujitsu will argue about which of them are the most responsible.

This has been one of the worse scandals in recent years. It 8s sad to see the effect that it has had, and continues to have, on the victims and their families.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 22 - 06:59 AM

Seeing is believing in the new James Webb technology.
https://www.universetoday.com/155686/now-we-can-finally-compare-webb-to-other-infrared-observatories/

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 01:43 PM

On BBC Radio 4 tomorrow

File on 4 - Justice on Trial

"Reporter Alys Harte investigates claims new software introduced in criminal courts is ‘unsafe’ and may be responsible for wrongful arrests and unlawful detentions."

This was not something that I was aware of. There is more information here on the BBC news site:

Court IT system 'putting justice at risk', staff claim

And more details here on the Law Society Gazette site, about the system and forthcoming strike action by the court staff.

Magistrates' court staff to strike for nine days this month

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jan 24 - 11:33 AM

On ITV1 tonight at 21.00

Mr Bates vs The Post Office

4 Episodes

The first part of a four-part drama.

Mysterious financial losses lead the Post Office to sack and prosecute village sub-postmasters who have no way to prove their innocence.

++

Meanwhile the Post Office Horizon Inquiry trundles on.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jan 24 - 02:15 PM

Anyone who read Larry Niven in their impressionable teens learned to fear...

... the programmers.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Jan 24 - 01:02 PM

An article from Computer Weekly

Post Office Horizon scandal explained: Everything you need to know

"Computer Weekly has investigated the Post Office Horizon scandal since 2008 and is, in fact, part of the story. This guide contains essential information about the scandal."

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jan 24 - 05:43 PM

I will look up the link just posted for which thank you. I remember a movie from the sixties "The President's Analyst" in which TPC* plays a behind the scenes role. Starring James Coburn with the great but under-utilized Severn Darden in a supporting role.


*The Phone Company

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 02:16 PM

The story of this massive moral failure got some play on Weekend Saturday today along with mention of the new movie out:
Mr. Bates vs The Post Office

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 03:13 PM

An article from The Guardian yesterday:

Update law on computer evidence to avoid Horizon repeat

"Critics say assumption in English and Welsh law that computers are ‘reliable’ reverses usual burden of proof in criminal cases."

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 06:08 PM

The program on NPR to which I referred earlier mentioned hundreds of convictions and more than a few suicides. It did not mention an immigrant/ or racial angle on the story. Wonder how far the movie will go. I'm a big fan of Toby Jones.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 07:32 PM

Just watch the programmes. It isn't a movie, by the way. Then we can talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 09:28 AM

Mr.Bates vs the Post Office was a 4 part series broadcast on consecutive nights. Each episode was approx 45 minutes long. I think it did a pretty good job in telling a complicated story which took place over 20 odd years. What is missing is what Fujitsu knew and what they told the Post Office over all that time. Hopefully the inquiry should bring some of that to light.

Despite a two-year inquiry and years of campaigning, it was the four-hour drama Mr Bates vs the Post Office that enabled the British public to pay proper attention to the unbelievable horrors of this story

++

"It did not mention an immigrant/ or racial angle on the story."

This has been brought up before. I have been following this story for a few years and have not seen anything to suggest that investigations were based on any racial reasons. If the system indicated a shortage it was 'investigated' and actions followed. Some of those people who were 'investigated' did feel that they experienced racist behaviour from the 'investigators'. That I can well believe.

From the BBC

Racism affected how we were treated over Horizon, says Post Office victims

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 11:15 AM

A couple of articles from The Register. The first is a decade old:

UK Post Office admits false accusations after computer system cockup

The second looks in depth at why this sort of thing happens (and why it's likely to happen again). Pay particular attention to the last paragraph.

How governments become addicted to suppliers like Fujitsu

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 02:51 AM

From the BBC yesterday,reporting after Paul Patterson appeared before MPs on the Business and Trade select committee on Tuesday:

Fujitsu admits it has a 'moral obligation' to compensate Post Office victims

"Fujitsu Europe's boss has admitted the firm has a "moral obligation" to contribute to compensation for sub-postmasters wrongly prosecuted as a result of its faulty IT software.

Paul Patterson said Fujitsu gave evidence to the Post Office that was used to prosecute innocent managers.

He added that the Post Office knew about "bugs and errors" in its Horizon accountancy software early on.

The global chief executive of Fujitsu, Takahito Tokita, also apologised.

Making his first public comments on the scandal to the BBC at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, Mr Tokita said: "This is a big issue, which Fujitsu takes very seriously."

When asked if he would apologise, he added: "Yes, of course. Fujitsu has apologised for the impact on the postmasters' lives and their families."

Mr Tokita has previously turned down six interview requests by the BBC, most recently last week."

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 03:01 AM

Thanks for those links MaJoC the Filk.

The following story does not appear to have had a lot of coverage.

From the BBC 24th July 2014

Government 'loses £700m NHS IT legal battle with Fujitsu'

"Taxpayers could be hit with a bill for up to £700m after the government reportedly lost a legal battle with Fujitsu over a failed NHS IT system.

The case was heard in secret but the arbitrator is thought to have found in favour of the Japanese IT giant.

Legal arguments are now thought to be continuing over the size of the damages the company will receive.

Fujitsu and the Cabinet Office both refused to comment, after the story appeared in The Daily Telegraph.

The Fujitsu Connecting for Health contract was part of the £12bn NHS national programme for IT, large parts of which have had to be abandoned at a cost estimated by the National Audit Office to be £2.7bn.

Fujitsu won the contract - to digitise patient records in the South of England - in 2002 but it was terminated in 2008, after disputes over changes, including a new system for electronically displaying and storing X-rays."

And

"Companies agree to go to arbitration, where hearings are held behind closed doors, to prevent "reputational damage" and save on legal bills, a legal source said.

Such is the secrecy surrounding these cases that the parties are even prevented from revealing where the hearings were held."

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 03:02 AM

this should never happen again, but it probably will

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 03:09 AM

I’m at a loss to understand why it took a TV drama to bring the scandal of the Post Office Sub-postmasters/Horizon system to the attention of the government and the wider public - it’s been reported on via the press and media for many years, and my wife and I have known about it for, at the very least, the past ten years.

I can only assume that the majority of the Great British Public have their heads so buried in Strickly, Big Bruvvah, I’m a Minor Celebrity, ‘Enders, and those never-ending, slow-moving, shouty game shows, that they pay no attention to news and current affairs programmes.

As far as the government is concerned, I’m sure there’s a great deal of significance in the fact that this is General Election year.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 03:24 AM

And it should not be forgotten that this outrageous business doesn’t end with the 555 - those are just the ones whom Alan Bates was able to pull together in order to get the funding for taking legal action against the PO. I’ve read, several times, that the total number of sub-postmasters affected by the NFFP Horizon software and the intransigence of the PO could run to thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 04:31 AM

The following article gives details of the 3 compensation schemes and an idea of the number of people involved

How do the Post Office scandal compensation schemes work?

Since the programme was broadcast more people have come forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 04:50 AM

Thanks for the link, RD - that’s a very interesting piece.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Jan 24 - 11:05 AM

I missed this last week. Ian Hislop on the Robert Peston show 10th January.

A calm, cool and collected Ian Hislop

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 24 - 11:22 AM

Brilliant!