BS: Belief in Technology

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 05:03 PM

From the BBC


"The government has agreed to foot the bill for the compensation of former Post Office workers who were falsely convicted of theft in the long-running Horizon saga.

The Post Office has said they are unable to cover the payments for the exonerated individuals.

As the Post Office's only shareholder, the government has now agreed to pay, as first reported by Sky News.

Details are set to be announced in Parliament as early as Tuesday.

After that, discussions about final settlement figures can begin with the individuals involved.

The Department for Business said that the impact on postmasters' lives and livelihoods "cannot be overstated"."

And

"A spokesperson from the Department for Business said that the government was "committed to seeing these longstanding Horizon issues resolved" and that it would provide financial support as well as interim compensation payments for those workers with overturned convictions.

"We are also learning what went wrong through the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry, and ensuring something like this cannot happen again," they added."

Cannot happen again? We shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 08:27 AM

From The Guardian

"UK taxpayers could have to pay as much as £1bn in compensation to former Post Office workers wrongly convicted of theft due to the defective Horizon IT system.

The system, which was installed by the Post Office and supplied by Fujitsu, falsely suggested there were cash shortfalls, leading to 736 unsafe convictions for theft, fraud and false accounting in what is one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in British legal history.

The Post Office has said it cannot afford to foot the huge cleanup bill for the scandal and last month the government, the service’s only shareholder, confirmed the taxpayer would step in.

This weekend new details of the potential magnitude of the compensation programme emerged."

The article contains a link to The Post Office Scandal blog by the journalist Nick Wallis, which gives details as to how this news was discovered. It makes for interesting reading.

Nick Wallis added a note to his blog post, pointing out that this story had originally been noted by Karl Flinders in Computer Weekly

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 04:35 AM

Shown on BBC1 last night.

Panorama - The Post Office Scandal

"The Post Office is responsible for the most widespread miscarriage of justice in British legal history. For nearly two decades, the scandal saw hundreds of men and women who ran post offices in towns and villages across the country accused of losing or stealing money, when in reality, a computer system could have been to blame. This Panorama special tells the story of those whose lives were utterly devastated, reveals the damning evidence that was kept from them and investigates how and why the Post Office, a multinational tech company and the government covered up the truth for so long."

The BBC published the following article about the programme.

Post Office scandal victims still waiting for compensation

"The quest for accountability

A public inquiry into the scandal has spent the first two months hearing harrowing evidence from former subpostmasters in England and Wales, and will travel to Northern Ireland and Scotland in May to hear the human impact of the decisions taken by Post Office bosses.

However, all victims are hoping that someone within government, the Post Office and Fujitsu, who made the Horizon software, will be held to account. But the calling of those witnesses will not get underway until the autumn, as the inquiry has announced another delay in its progress.

Noel Thomas, who was wrongly jailed for nine months on a charge of false accounting, said he wants those in charge to feel some consequences. "People in their position, being paid a lot of money, hiding the truth; make them feel like I felt when I lost everything overnight," he told Panorama.

That celebration at the High Court last year marked a huge achievement for victims fighting a seemingly impossible battle, but it has certainly not been the end of the story."

++

I don't know how long this inquiry will take and then how long the subsequent legal cases will rumble on. No doubt the Post Office and Fujitsu will argue about which of them are the most responsible.

This has been one of the worse scandals in recent years. It 8s sad to see the effect that it has had, and continues to have, on the victims and their families.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 22 - 06:59 AM

Seeing is believing in the new James Webb technology.
https://www.universetoday.com/155686/now-we-can-finally-compare-webb-to-other-infrared-observatories/

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Sep 22 - 01:43 PM

On BBC Radio 4 tomorrow

File on 4 - Justice on Trial

"Reporter Alys Harte investigates claims new software introduced in criminal courts is ‘unsafe’ and may be responsible for wrongful arrests and unlawful detentions."

This was not something that I was aware of. There is more information here on the BBC news site:

Court IT system 'putting justice at risk', staff claim

And more details here on the Law Society Gazette site, about the system and forthcoming strike action by the court staff.

Magistrates' court staff to strike for nine days this month

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jan 24 - 11:33 AM

On ITV1 tonight at 21.00

Mr Bates vs The Post Office

4 Episodes

The first part of a four-part drama.

Mysterious financial losses lead the Post Office to sack and prosecute village sub-postmasters who have no way to prove their innocence.

++

Meanwhile the Post Office Horizon Inquiry trundles on.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jan 24 - 02:15 PM

Anyone who read Larry Niven in their impressionable teens learned to fear...

... the programmers.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Jan 24 - 01:02 PM

An article from Computer Weekly

Post Office Horizon scandal explained: Everything you need to know

"Computer Weekly has investigated the Post Office Horizon scandal since 2008 and is, in fact, part of the story. This guide contains essential information about the scandal."

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jan 24 - 05:43 PM

I will look up the link just posted for which thank you. I remember a movie from the sixties "The President's Analyst" in which TPC* plays a behind the scenes role. Starring James Coburn with the great but under-utilized Severn Darden in a supporting role.


*The Phone Company

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 02:16 PM

The story of this massive moral failure got some play on Weekend Saturday today along with mention of the new movie out:
Mr. Bates vs The Post Office

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 03:13 PM

An article from The Guardian yesterday:

Update law on computer evidence to avoid Horizon repeat

"Critics say assumption in English and Welsh law that computers are ‘reliable’ reverses usual burden of proof in criminal cases."

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 06:08 PM

The program on NPR to which I referred earlier mentioned hundreds of convictions and more than a few suicides. It did not mention an immigrant/ or racial angle on the story. Wonder how far the movie will go. I'm a big fan of Toby Jones.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 24 - 07:32 PM

Just watch the programmes. It isn't a movie, by the way. Then we can talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 09:28 AM

Mr.Bates vs the Post Office was a 4 part series broadcast on consecutive nights. Each episode was approx 45 minutes long. I think it did a pretty good job in telling a complicated story which took place over 20 odd years. What is missing is what Fujitsu knew and what they told the Post Office over all that time. Hopefully the inquiry should bring some of that to light.

Despite a two-year inquiry and years of campaigning, it was the four-hour drama Mr Bates vs the Post Office that enabled the British public to pay proper attention to the unbelievable horrors of this story

++

"It did not mention an immigrant/ or racial angle on the story."

This has been brought up before. I have been following this story for a few years and have not seen anything to suggest that investigations were based on any racial reasons. If the system indicated a shortage it was 'investigated' and actions followed. Some of those people who were 'investigated' did feel that they experienced racist behaviour from the 'investigators'. That I can well believe.

From the BBC

Racism affected how we were treated over Horizon, says Post Office victims

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Jan 24 - 11:15 AM

A couple of articles from The Register. The first is a decade old:

UK Post Office admits false accusations after computer system cockup

The second looks in depth at why this sort of thing happens (and why it's likely to happen again). Pay particular attention to the last paragraph.

How governments become addicted to suppliers like Fujitsu

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 02:51 AM

From the BBC yesterday,reporting after Paul Patterson appeared before MPs on the Business and Trade select committee on Tuesday:

Fujitsu admits it has a 'moral obligation' to compensate Post Office victims

"Fujitsu Europe's boss has admitted the firm has a "moral obligation" to contribute to compensation for sub-postmasters wrongly prosecuted as a result of its faulty IT software.

Paul Patterson said Fujitsu gave evidence to the Post Office that was used to prosecute innocent managers.

He added that the Post Office knew about "bugs and errors" in its Horizon accountancy software early on.

The global chief executive of Fujitsu, Takahito Tokita, also apologised.

Making his first public comments on the scandal to the BBC at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, Mr Tokita said: "This is a big issue, which Fujitsu takes very seriously."

When asked if he would apologise, he added: "Yes, of course. Fujitsu has apologised for the impact on the postmasters' lives and their families."

Mr Tokita has previously turned down six interview requests by the BBC, most recently last week."

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 03:01 AM

Thanks for those links MaJoC the Filk.

The following story does not appear to have had a lot of coverage.

From the BBC 24th July 2014

Government 'loses £700m NHS IT legal battle with Fujitsu'

"Taxpayers could be hit with a bill for up to £700m after the government reportedly lost a legal battle with Fujitsu over a failed NHS IT system.

The case was heard in secret but the arbitrator is thought to have found in favour of the Japanese IT giant.

Legal arguments are now thought to be continuing over the size of the damages the company will receive.

Fujitsu and the Cabinet Office both refused to comment, after the story appeared in The Daily Telegraph.

The Fujitsu Connecting for Health contract was part of the £12bn NHS national programme for IT, large parts of which have had to be abandoned at a cost estimated by the National Audit Office to be £2.7bn.

Fujitsu won the contract - to digitise patient records in the South of England - in 2002 but it was terminated in 2008, after disputes over changes, including a new system for electronically displaying and storing X-rays."

And

"Companies agree to go to arbitration, where hearings are held behind closed doors, to prevent "reputational damage" and save on legal bills, a legal source said.

Such is the secrecy surrounding these cases that the parties are even prevented from revealing where the hearings were held."

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 03:02 AM

this should never happen again, but it probably will

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 03:09 AM

I’m at a loss to understand why it took a TV drama to bring the scandal of the Post Office Sub-postmasters/Horizon system to the attention of the government and the wider public - it’s been reported on via the press and media for many years, and my wife and I have known about it for, at the very least, the past ten years.

I can only assume that the majority of the Great British Public have their heads so buried in Strickly, Big Bruvvah, I’m a Minor Celebrity, ‘Enders, and those never-ending, slow-moving, shouty game shows, that they pay no attention to news and current affairs programmes.

As far as the government is concerned, I’m sure there’s a great deal of significance in the fact that this is General Election year.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 03:24 AM

And it should not be forgotten that this outrageous business doesn’t end with the 555 - those are just the ones whom Alan Bates was able to pull together in order to get the funding for taking legal action against the PO. I’ve read, several times, that the total number of sub-postmasters affected by the NFFP Horizon software and the intransigence of the PO could run to thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 04:31 AM

The following article gives details of the 3 compensation schemes and an idea of the number of people involved

How do the Post Office scandal compensation schemes work?

Since the programme was broadcast more people have come forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 24 - 04:50 AM

Thanks for the link, RD - that’s a very interesting piece.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Jan 24 - 11:05 AM

I missed this last week. Ian Hislop on the Robert Peston show 10th January.

A calm, cool and collected Ian Hislop

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 24 - 11:22 AM

Brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Feb 25 - 10:35 AM

Due to be broadcast next week on BBC Radio 4 at 20.00 Tues 11th Feb and 11.00 Weds 12th Feb, then made available to listen to on BBC Sounds

The Great Post Office Trial

"2024 was the year when the Post Office's victimisation of sub-postmasters became a ubiquitous national story, after the airing of an ITV Drama. "Mr Bates vs the Post Office" was viewed by more than 10 million people, and brought political momentum to the resolution of the ongoing injustices associated with the scandal. Before the election, the government passed landmark legislation to cut through the achingly slow judicial process and speedily overturn hundreds of convictions in one fell swoop. It was a major victory for Sub Postmasters and campaigners - but does it mean the scandal is over?

In a new episode of "The Great Post Office Trial", Nick Wallis goes behind the scenes of the efforts to get that legislation passed, hearing from the then Justice secretary and Post Office minister on the complex negotiations against the clock that got it through. And he also hears about the key compromise that helped reduce criticism from the judiciary - but has left some convicted sub-postmasters still out in the cold.

He also explores the question of accountability at the top, as the police investigation grinds on, revisiting the evidence given by former Post Office CEO Paula Vennells, which was pushed out of the news cycle by the announcement of the election.

And he hears from Sub Postmasters who are still frustrated by the pace and quantity of compensation payments, as more victims of this scandal continue to be put through the ringer in pursuit of the compensation the government has promised; he puts their concerns to Gareth Thomas MP, who has taken over since the election as the minister responsible, and Neil Brocklehurst, the Post Office's interim CEO.

Producer: Robert Nicholson
Executive Producer: Will Yates
Sound Design: Emma Barnaby
Research: Artemis Irvine

A Whistledown Production for BBC Radio 4."

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Feb 25 - 11:57 AM

I suspect the breadth and scope of this thread is going to take a shift to looking at TikTok and hard drives entering the US Treasury without vetting. Technology is working against us right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Feb 25 - 07:22 PM

The US Post Office is constrained by congressional mandates that they pay forward health insurance stuff and keep the agency in financial difficulties. There is a Postmaster General who wants to take it apart and privatize and a few years ago went a long way toward breaking it, though was forced to stop that (for the time being.)

Now the technology that we have all used, that we are using to participate here, may work against us, because Musk has started seizing all of our personally identifiable information and Zuckerberg has at the very least drunk the kool aid and isn't resisting Trump. So communications amongst parties who are working against them will be difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Feb 25 - 10:09 AM

Elon's Doge AI seems devoid of ethics, law, and empathy which makes it a supremely fascist AI. What effect does a fascist AI have on the world?

Does DeepSeek have a Communist slant?

Is there a democratized AI?

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 08:25 AM

Does DeepSeek have a Communist slant?

Well! Er, um, where does it get its data from? The web according to Chaiman Mau, I would posit. Just as we always knew that our web has a bias, towards white anglo-saxon protestant data. Surely a Chinese version will reflect Chinese values, Chinese history and Xi's edicts.

And both webs will eventually be smeared with guff generated by AI that has been then placed on their webs by unthinking idiots. It is a known phenomenon that research has called "model collapse". Which any electronic engineer or soundman will tell you is just positive feedback. Unchecked it ain't what others choose to call "positive" artistically.

Subject: RE: BS: Belief in Technology
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Feb 25 - 08:37 AM

There are some things you can not unsee.
I witnessed an underground video of a Chinese mass execution of nearly a thousand people by a gunshot to the head by individual guards behind each victim. Chinese values are forever biased from my POV.