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BS: Are we alone?

Donuel 30 Apr 21 - 04:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Apr 21 - 05:03 PM
Mr Red 01 May 21 - 02:05 AM
robomatic 01 May 21 - 07:03 AM
Donuel 01 May 21 - 08:34 AM
Dave Hanson 01 May 21 - 09:13 AM
Bill D 01 May 21 - 10:06 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 May 21 - 10:13 AM
Mrrzy 01 May 21 - 11:17 AM
Bill D 02 May 21 - 10:35 AM
Steve Shaw 02 May 21 - 12:10 PM
Donuel 02 May 21 - 01:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 May 21 - 02:04 PM
Donuel 03 May 21 - 08:12 AM
Mrrzy 03 May 21 - 09:39 AM
gnu 06 May 21 - 08:51 AM
GUEST 06 May 21 - 06:23 PM
Donuel 07 May 21 - 08:06 AM
Donuel 08 May 21 - 02:47 PM
Steve Shaw 08 May 21 - 07:36 PM

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Subject: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 21 - 04:27 PM

Are we alone?
No, but we're getting lonlier. The universe is probably about 15 billion years old but it has expanded perhaps 96 billion light years and its hard to say what is beyond the visible horizon. This concept is complicated further by saying the big bang happened everywhere when created space time was small. So for the last 10 billion years conscious life has had time to evolve in special places. The time to visit each other ould have happened when we all lived closer to one another in a smaller universe. The odds of a visit strikes me as becoming less likely with each passing day. There could be nearby neighbors or species that have no home to go back to, or reach if they tried.
Scientists say that the universe is not intuitive to our minds. Thats one way to look at it considering the truths of quantum mechqnics but lets look at the similarities. I say we are a universe in ourselves that is born from something very small. When we were eggs we were .2 millimeters at most, just barely visible to an adult. The universe was tiny too. We will die, so will the universe in a thinned out big chill.
We are not one individual but are actually many lifeforms in that half our body weight is countless millions of bacteria. The universe is also a conglomeration of countless stuff. We get bigger, so does the universe etc etc etc.

We are made from the universe and obviously share some of the big things that the universe also experiences as Rap recently mentioned, everybody poops.

Will we get along with aliens? Probably no better than we get along with people on line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 21 - 05:03 PM

The galaxy we're in isn't expanding, and it's a fair old size, so I wouldn't worry too much. Not that I think we're too likely to run into anyone else any day soon, if ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 May 21 - 02:05 AM

hard to say what is beyond the visible horizon

There was this school of thought that says: "what if light is bent by the passing of so much mass that we are seeing ourselves in the past?"
After all, History repeats itself.

And our view of the very very small is incomplete. There is a measured discrepancy at Fermi Labs and at Cern where scientists are now pondering if we have all the particles named and nailed-down. And they still don't know why gravity's force is so small by comparison with the others. And gravity takes us back to the bending light hypothesis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 21 - 07:03 AM

Either we're alone, and that is deep and incredible.

Or we're not alone, which is also deep and incredible.

If you're into the deep meta, it's win-win!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 May 21 - 08:34 AM

McGrath, Then we can rule out extragalacticans.
Red, cool.
robo, deep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 May 21 - 09:13 AM

I am.


Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 May 21 - 10:06 AM

Oh, I'd bet that in the vastness of time & space, there are.. and have been.. other 'beings' complex enough to ask the same question.

I also doubt the bet will ever be settled. I'd like to be wrong about never finding out..but...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 21 - 10:13 AM

I think We're alone Now


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 May 21 - 11:17 AM

I like the math idea... Life is, apparently, likely anywhere within the Goldilocks zones for gravity, water and air. Multicellular life is highly unlikely. Intelligence, vanishingly rare, perhaps.

Planets in such zones may be vanishingly rare.

But this is a biiiiiiiiig universe. The chances of it having only happened once? Infinitesimal.

But the likelihood of us ever *encounter* such other intelligences, infinitesimal again.

So I don't worry about it. I just assume the galaxy is full of life but it's spread out and unlikely to encounter us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 21 - 10:35 AM

...and there are millions of galaxies....

I love science-fiction stories which posit FTL travel and speculation about what alien civilizations might be like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 May 21 - 12:10 PM

"The chances of it having only happened once? Infinitesimal."

I'm not so sure. It's a rock-solid bet that that any life in the universe progresses via evolution by natural selection. It took billions and billions of tiny steps over three billion years to progress from simple multicellular organisms to our advanced civilisation. Only a tiny percentage of planets will possess suitable materials and the environmental conditions needed to drive that process. It's about as likely as a chimpanzee randomly banging typewriter keys managing to type the Bible. But it is a very big universe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 21 - 01:56 PM

Actual scientific math shows the odds are most challenged by an encounter within the time frame of two co-existing civilizations over 10 billion years and not monkeys randomly typing the Bible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 21 - 02:04 PM

Depends who you mean by we and what you mean by alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 21 - 08:12 AM

Good point. In a star trek movie 'we' meant whales.

Alone is silly when there are other conscious species right here on earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 May 21 - 09:39 AM

We includes all terrestrial life. Is terrestrial life all the life there is? I doubt it. Are the terrestrial intelligence sall the intelligences there are? My guess is no but we'll never know. One guess, that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: gnu
Date: 06 May 21 - 08:51 AM

I am alone. I like it that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 21 - 06:23 PM

Suppose the probability of intelligent life (per unit volume) is zero. Then it still might have happened somewhere, and wherever it happened, there we would be. (If you fire a point bullet at a target, the probability of hitting a particular point is zero, but you are bound to hit some point if you hit the target at all.) However, the current picture seems to be that the whole universe is effectively infinite (the distant parts of the *observable* universe are winking out, but we are winking out from their point of view, and they can see stuff that we can't). But now, suppose that the probability of intelligent life is nonzero but extremely small. Then there might be no hope of finding another example in the observable universe, but almost surely (i.e., with probability 1) it has happened infinitely often, and in one of the places where it has, there we are. We cannot expect to distinguish these possibilities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 21 - 08:06 AM

Good thinking guest.
As tenacious as life has been on Earth while it has lived through lava hot impact eons as well as totally frozen snowball Earth millenias, it seems to me life is most certain to be elsewhere over a wider range of extremes than we can imagine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:47 PM

People familiar with Gaia have run accross Panpsychism. Physics gives us behavioral structure; panpsychism is a proposal about what underlies that behavioral structure. Think about a mathematical model in economics that’s just a bunch of equations that abstracts away from the concrete realities of labour, prices, etc. The reality of labour doesn’t add to the reality specified by that model - to the contrary, labour is the very thing one of those symbols refers to Similarly, according to panpsychism, physics gives us mathematical models that abstract away from the concrete reality of a universe filled with consciousness. The term ‘mass’ refers to something that physics characterises in terms of its behaviour but which in its intrinsic nature is a form of consciousness. If that view makes sense, then there’s no conflict with physics. There are all sorts of ways you could (and people do) challenge it, but IF consciousness is a fundamental reality then at some point physics will join panpsychism in a theory of everything. On the other hand if the universe is all inanimate and unconscious but the Earth is the only exception then everything is all physics and no consciousness. Meaning we are alone.
I doubt it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 21 - 07:36 PM

What a load of obscurantist bollocks. Still, an entertaining read if nothing else.


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