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4 33 john cage Trad Song

The Sandman 10 May 21 - 11:53 AM
GUEST 10 May 21 - 11:35 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 10 May 21 - 07:40 AM
Peter the Squeezer 10 May 21 - 07:35 AM
The Sandman 10 May 21 - 06:54 AM
The Sandman 07 May 21 - 08:46 AM
GUEST 07 May 21 - 05:27 AM
The Sandman 07 May 21 - 04:52 AM
GUEST 07 May 21 - 04:45 AM
The Sandman 07 May 21 - 02:49 AM
GUEST 07 May 21 - 02:43 AM
GUEST,# 06 May 21 - 04:23 PM
The Sandman 06 May 21 - 04:10 PM
Manitas_at_home 06 May 21 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,# 06 May 21 - 02:34 PM
The Sandman 06 May 21 - 02:13 PM
Manitas_at_home 06 May 21 - 01:07 PM
The Sandman 06 May 21 - 12:49 PM
Manitas_at_home 06 May 21 - 12:33 PM
The Sandman 06 May 21 - 11:36 AM
Rain Dog 06 May 21 - 11:10 AM
The Sandman 06 May 21 - 11:10 AM
The Sandman 06 May 21 - 11:05 AM
Rain Dog 06 May 21 - 10:44 AM
r.padgett 06 May 21 - 10:25 AM
The Sandman 06 May 21 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,RA 06 May 21 - 07:45 AM
r.padgett 06 May 21 - 03:22 AM
GUEST,# 05 May 21 - 09:30 PM
The Sandman 05 May 21 - 03:39 PM
r.padgett 05 May 21 - 03:29 PM
Nigel Parsons 05 May 21 - 11:22 AM
The Sandman 05 May 21 - 09:13 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 May 21 - 07:45 AM
The Sandman 05 May 21 - 07:17 AM
GUEST,Richard 05 May 21 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,Henry Piper (of Ottery ) 05 May 21 - 05:11 AM
Acorn4 05 May 21 - 04:01 AM
The Sandman 04 May 21 - 07:11 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 04 May 21 - 04:43 AM
The Sandman 04 May 21 - 01:47 AM
GerryM 04 May 21 - 12:22 AM
GUEST,# 03 May 21 - 08:56 PM
GUEST,cnd 03 May 21 - 07:58 PM
Jack Campin 03 May 21 - 07:42 PM
Jeri 03 May 21 - 07:21 PM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 03 May 21 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,# 03 May 21 - 02:11 PM
cnd 03 May 21 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,keberoxu 03 May 21 - 01:21 PM
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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 21 - 11:53 AM

did i say that it matters, i did not
perhaps i just like to discuss it, and hear others views , that is about enlightenment beam me up scotty etc let the lighhouse shine its light on me etc,
if you are still in the dark try taking the road to damsascus like st paul and you might see the light.
“Enlightenment is man's release from his self-incurred tutelage. Tutelage is man's inability to make use of his understanding without direction from another. Self-incurred is this tutelage when its cause lies not in lack of reason but in lack of resolution and courage to use it without direction from another. Sapere aude! 'Have courage to use your own reason!'- that is the motto of enlightenment.”Kant


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 21 - 11:35 AM

The Sandman: "the deeper point is go for a walk in the countryside and there is no silence you might hear a peewit or hear a boy racer, or even the sound of rain on a tin roof whilst you are sheltering, or even the sound of rain on the path or a sheep"

Well, that's essentially *Cage's* point - but I'm still largely in the dark as to what yours is, or why it matters whether or not 4'33" counts as a traditional song.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 10 May 21 - 07:40 AM

It should be played in the correct key for your personal tinnatus.

Robin


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 10 May 21 - 07:35 AM

Does anybody know what key 4'33" should be played in?


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 21 - 06:54 AM

the deeper point is go for a walk in the countryside and there is no silence you might hear a peewit or hear a boy racer, or even the sound of rain on a tin roof whilst you are sheltering, or even the sound of rain on the path or a sheep


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 21 - 08:46 AM

meanwhile the voters of hartlepool have given themselves enough rope not justto hang a monkey but to hang themselves


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 21 - 05:27 AM

Sophistry and obfuscation.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 21 - 04:52 AM

try cogitating on it regardless of your sex


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 21 - 04:45 AM

I just don't understand what your deeper point is, or what tangible consequence the ramifications of the argument would have...

Also, please don't assume I'm a man!


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 21 - 02:49 AM

MEDITATE on it MAN


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 21 - 02:43 AM

I mean, so what?


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 May 21 - 04:23 PM

I won't say a word.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 21 - 04:10 PM

the development continues during the perfomance, often in a spontaneous manner, audience is a community, its a gathering
"the condition of sharing or having certain attitudes and interests in common" is one defintion of community, thus anyone gathering to ahare in the perfomance of 4 33 becomes a community.
forty love to me new balls please


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 06 May 21 - 02:47 PM

The development doesn't continue, it lasts only for that performance and the 'community' doesn't pick up from where it left off and continue to develop it. It could be argued that there is no community here just an audience which is different, usually entirely different, for each performance. The audience isn't even necessary.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 May 21 - 02:34 PM

Sure is getting deep here.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 21 - 02:13 PM

but it develops during the 4 33


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 06 May 21 - 01:07 PM

It is never developed. It starts afresh every time.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 21 - 12:49 PM

it is developed by a community every time it is performed, because it is different every time and evolves during 4 33, for example the sound of one person or two taking their clothes off during the performance would be a community development., if this should occur or even the sound og f a scraping chair is a community development


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 06 May 21 - 12:33 PM

By that definition any music that samples or quotes any part of a piece of folk music would count as folk music. I'm pretty sure that the definition wasn't intended to include the New World Symphony, the 1812 Overture, the Fantasia on Greensleeves, the soundtrack to the Wicker Man and so forth.
The piece 4.33 has a known composer and hasn't been and will not be developed by a community even though it will be interpreted and performed differently each time it is played live.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 21 - 11:36 AM

on another occasion it might not qualify at all.
that is a serious mistake raindog


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 May 21 - 11:10 AM

I was just quoting from your own posts.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 21 - 11:10 AM

it could also qualify if for exqmple
i happened to stand outside the building playing soldiers joy or miss mcleods reel or any tradtional tune


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 21 - 11:05 AM

Ray it varies every time and it can contain song if someone happens tio be singning outside the building. everything is an art form.
your post rain dog is uninformed bollocks.
4 33 captures a period in time which can vary and which can contain a song ,if for example someone is singing it outside the building.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 May 21 - 10:44 AM

4 33 would appear not to fit the definition of traditional song according to your own post.

"1954 the International Folk Music Council defined folk music as "the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (1) continuity which links the present with the past; (2) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (3) selection by the community which determines the form or forms in which the music survives."
The International Council also stressed the fact that the term folk music, which includes folk songs, can be "applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and subsequently has been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community."

6 mentions of music or musical.
1 mention of songs.
1 mention of oral transmission.

None of which apply to 4 33

Now what was that about uninformed rubbish?


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 May 21 - 10:25 AM

"we" only have a definition if WE want one

1954 it was the date the ~1954 the International Folk Music Council defined folk music as "the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission" but makes no firm statement regarding what is not "a traditional song cut off point" there isn't one!

Ray

Makes no difference when a song was written 4'33 is not a song, nor music, it is Art form
traditional songs keep being found and published from collectors, made years ago some before and after 1954 ~few people recognise 1954 or even know about


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 May 21 - 09:46 AM

ray that is your opinion , but it is about listening to silence, it was written before 1954. ray , i am afraid you are talkimg uninformed rubbish , we have a defintion of tradtional song 4.33 fits it


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 06 May 21 - 07:45 AM

Never mind John Cage - he's old hat! What about this new musique concrete made from the sound of Lego bricks? Is it folk music?

Lego White Noise


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 May 21 - 03:22 AM

Firstly we must dispel the the myth that traditional ceased after 1954 ~ collectors were still finding new uncollected traditional songs after 1954 and certainly new variants of existing songs, indeed new facts from variants

It matters not a jot who were members of the IFMC council ~

Contemporary songs were being created before 1954 and do not or cannot claim to be traditional on that fact

Contemporary and traditional have no defining date ~certainly NOT 1954

4'33 is contemporary rubbish ~ it is at its best an Art form performance ~if you like that sort of thing

Ray

I have no firm definition of traditional and strictly there isn't one, Steve G no doubt has one ~ or not lol


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 May 21 - 09:30 PM

It's a musical Schrödinger's cat without noise.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 21 - 03:39 PM

ray, you must know of the 1954 defintion, actually the composition is older than the defintion, no no,it is not nothing, it is something it is about listening to the sounds during the afore mentioned 4 33. it is very difficult in the modern world to hear complete silence. and during this composition the sounds will be different everytime
    1954 the International Folk Music Council defined folk music as "the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (1) continuity which links the present with the past; (2) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (3) selection by the community which determines the form or forms in which the music survives."
The International Council also stressed the fact that the term folk music, which includes folk songs, can be "applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and subsequently has been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community." Present-day collectors use the term as all-inclusive, covering many varieties of music of the common people.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 May 21 - 03:29 PM

What is the significance of 1954? please

The 4'33 is a piece of madcap contemporary nothing

Ray


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 May 21 - 11:22 AM

No, It wasn't a reference to the late Nick Kamen (R.I.P.) removing his jeans.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 21 - 09:13 AM

you do not mean items of clothing? ,


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 May 21 - 07:45 AM

I am sure that we all know some performers who could usefully add this to their repertoire, preferably while removing something else. ;)


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 21 - 07:17 AM

n o henry, because the composition could include someone outside the building singing a song, silence is un predictable, the composition can include extraneous accidental sound froom outside the building


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST,Richard
Date: 05 May 21 - 05:54 AM

aka Music for a lost harmonium...


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST,Henry Piper (of Ottery )
Date: 05 May 21 - 05:11 AM

Since the Piece has no words, it is NOT a song so could not qualify as "Folksong" by any definition.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 May 21 - 04:01 AM

Perhaps it was a night visiting song written after the advent of double glazing?


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 21 - 07:11 AM

you can just tell em dick miles said so


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 May 21 - 04:43 AM

When I forget the words to a song and there is a moments silence, could I refer to it as a John Cage inspired interlude?


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 May 21 - 01:47 AM

"The more I hear, the more I believe in the non-horse theory"
you clearly do not hear
and yes there are other tunes to it.
defintions are for defining. the definition of jazz is one where the importance of improvisation is paramount, it is a good defintion.
if i open a can of baked beans i do not expect to find a can of worms


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GerryM
Date: 04 May 21 - 12:22 AM

Jeri, I think *one* tune to Matty Groves was borrowed from Shady Grove. There are other, I think older, tunes to Matty that bear no relation to his kid sister, Shady.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 May 21 - 08:56 PM

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/59902/101-masterpieces-john-cages-433#:~:text=After%20another%20minute%20and%2040,%2C%20stood%20up%2C%20and%20bowed.&text=The%20piece%20was%20called%204,It%20seemed%20like%20a%20joke.

Excellent article.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST,cnd
Date: 03 May 21 - 07:58 PM

A minor correction, Jack, the lengths of time are merely suggested; the original sheet music says that eag section can last any length of time as the player desires


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 May 21 - 07:42 PM

There is no real possibility of variation. It's the endpoint of a series of pieces Cage had been writing for years, where the distinction between rhythmic proportion and form got eroded. What is left in 4'33" is a three movement structure where the movements have definite duration and nothing more. You cannot mess about with the timings, and the timings are all there is.

After that Cage went on to other things. He'd shown where that idea of music as being the structuring of time could go.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Jeri
Date: 03 May 21 - 07:21 PM

The tune to Matty Groves was borrowed from Shady Grove.
As to the actual subject (if there is one), I don't care. The more I hear, the more I believe in the non-horse theory. Definitions are for people who can't figure things out without help. They're handy if you have to figure out what other people mean, but that's about all.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 03 May 21 - 02:30 PM

It has some of the elements of folklore as well.

Robin


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 May 21 - 02:11 PM

Here it is.


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: cnd
Date: 03 May 21 - 01:41 PM

I took a music class once where we focused on this song, and each member of the class was asked to perform it.

I think the hinging point of your definition is "absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community" -- people may inadvertently perform it, but there has to be a degree of intention behind it. And if people are intentionally performing it, they're following the original sheet music (sparse as it may be).


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Subject: RE: 4 33 john cage Trad Song
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 03 May 21 - 01:21 PM

Pull the other one, Dick,
It's got bells on ...


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