Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: Noreen
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 06:32 PM

Great thread indeed, RWM, exactly what the Mudcat is about.

Noreen

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 11:34 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: GUEST,erica
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 12:10 PM

goodness, i'm in the middle of recording this song and was about to start gathering info on it, knowing there was still some controversy. thanks for clearing up the mystery! erica

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: Noreen
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 03:22 PM

Susan, thanks for refreshing this. It's one of my favourite threads of all.

Noreen

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: Erica Smith
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 03:19 PM

I'm refreshing this thread because, as my CD project is wrapping up, i'm writing some liner notes (will be posted on my website -- not enough in the budget to print a big CD booklet, alas!). I will be quoting extensively from this thread, especially Malcom's commentary, giving credit to him and the Mudcat. If anyone would like to screen it beforehand, PM me and let me know, I'll send it along. Thanks!!! Erica

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: DancingMom
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 03:42 PM

This is so interesting, especially for someone like me who is fairly new to searching out the old music. I heard this for the first time on Eliza Carthy's Red Rice. GOOD stuff. Sharon

Subject: Music for The Snows
From:
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 06:39 PM

I would love to play this on guitar. Does anyone know the tuning and the chords? I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: Bearheart
Date: 07 Jun 02 - 10:03 PM

Glad this thread came up,as I have been curious about the song for some time. Had learned Dick Gaughan's version some time ago, then Annie Briggs' more recently from the CD discussed earlier-- guys, on the recording I have she does sing the original words-- the query I had been thinking of posting was--whose words were the original ones-- since Gaughan's on Handful of Earth vary on the verse about the stile. But that's the verse she sings, from the original as it reads earlier in this thread. Lots of my questions answered, including the source-- as always I'm grateful to you folks for tracking such things down.

Bekki

Subject: Okay, This is off the subject...
From: GUEST,Wingfoot-the-Archer
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 02:12 PM

Okay, this is off the subject of Snows They Melt, but, there's just a little thing I found out today: The lyrics to 'Ein Feste Burg' (A Mighty Fortress) have a little mistake. On the fifth line, it says: der alt b Feind.
It's supposed to be: der alt böse Feind.
I just wanted to let everybody know. Because I know the German lyrics by heart, I just had to point that out. ;)

Thanks,
Wingfoot

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: Nevada
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 07:26 AM

Sorry. Can't help. The only thing i know about this song is that Judy Dinning sings it with the band 'Real Time', & also lists it as trad.I can't say it's the best song i've ever heard.
Luv AAA x

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: GUEST,Vince
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 04:45 PM

Best not trace the author, he/she may have descendants who may want to claim copyrite or royalties - arrrrggghh! Seriously tho folks, tis a grand song and i still have the original vinyl record on topic of Anne Briggs (first solo album she did i think) who does a great version of this 'traditional' song. The sleeve notes stat, 'We owe this to a good pioneer collector of North-eastern song, the radical agitator Thomas Doubleday, who contributed it to Blackwoods magazine as long ago as 1821. He got the melody from a Newcastle street singer'. See also Malcolm Douglas's contribution further up the thread 21/01/01........my this is an old thread......but then so am i.....there's many a tune played on an old thread!

See y'at Saddleworth!!

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 12:41 PM

Malcolm? You wouldn't happen to have the midi handy, now would you? (It goes to a couple other sets of lyrics I beleive you mentioned?)

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 03:02 PM

The Snows they Melt the Soonest - midi from Doubleday's notation (details above). As stated earlier, it's a White Cockade variant, known to Doubleday as My Love is Newly Listed and under that name used by him for his song The Auld Fisher's Last Wish.

I think we might usefully consider the thread closed now.

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 03:13 PM

Thank you Malcolm.

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: Spot
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 03:19 PM

Hallo everybody..
                  I suggested Bob Fox's version earlier on today but where that message has gone I dont know...I read it 10mins ago and now cant get back to that particular thread!!! Bloody computers!! Anyway its on The Hush CD Dark to the Sky...excellent version...

    regards to all....Spot

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 03:25 PM

That was in the other thread, which is a little further down the page just at present. Your computer is not at fault, but you may need new glasses.

Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: Spot
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM

MalcolmD...you never said a truer word re glasses!!! That made me laugh!!! I'm crap at PC's and everything keeps getting lost in blasted pop-up ads... Grrrr!!!Will try and find other one...

    Regards to all....Spot

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: GUEST,Tom Draughon
Date: 10 Mar 06 - 07:44 PM

Hey, Just googled "The Snows" and got this thread. I recorded this with my band, "Way Up North" in the mid-90's. I had heard Dick Gaughan's superb rendition and was inspired to give it a try myself. We did it in c minor with a soaring whistle solo part way on. Just resurrecting the song to play with a young woman who has studied Scottish fiddle with Alasdair Fraser and was looking for more background. Found it here! Thanks, Tom Draughon, Heartistry Music, http://www.heartistrymusic.com 720 4th Avenue West, Ashland, WI, 54806 USA 715-682-9362

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: GUEST,fynt
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 09:57 AM

That midi is off - well off - bleurgh

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 08:32 PM

The midi is an exact transcription of the notation printed in 1821. If you don't like it, that may be because you have only heard modern arrangements, in which the tune has been slowed down a lot and altered in various other ways. The modern form is well known and did not require transcription; though I suppose it might be a useful exercise at some point, as an illustration of the way in which Revival performers have frequently re-invented (and sometimes mis-represented) their sources.

Once you learn a bit more about the subject, you'll understand that point.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 07:25 PM

A snatch of the song with the tune we all know appeared in Episode 2 of "Tess Of The D'Urbervilles" last night, sung by the farmer and his milkmaids.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 07:23 AM

Interesting MIDI, I think we can credit Briggs with reinventing the mood.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: My guru always said
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 12:34 PM

I was gobsmacked when I heard them singing this to the cows on Tess! I've only just learnt it & started singing it out, it's a beautiful song!

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 01:10 PM

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Malcolm Douglas - PM
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 08:32 PM

The midi is an exact transcription of the notation printed in 1821. If you don't like it, that may be because you have only heard modern arrangements, in which the tune has been slowed down a lot and altered in various other ways. The modern form is well known and did not require transcription; though I suppose it might be a useful exercise at some point, as an illustration of the way in which Revival performers have frequently re-invented (and sometimes mis-represented) their sources.

Once you learn a bit more about the subject, you'll understand that point.
Malcolm ,and on occasions improved upon the source singers versions,of course, a subjective opinion.
there is no reason why anyone should sing the 1821 version.old is not necessarily the best.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Sep 08 - 08:00 PM

I didn't suggest that it was. I merely pointed out that it wasn't 'well off', as the blow-in poster thought (having evidently not read much of the discussion before adding to it), but was an accurate transcription from the original source. You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote, despite quoting it in full (though without a line break to separate your own comment). I have, and expressed, no opinion (subjective or otherwise) as to whether or not the modern adaptation is 'better' -that is the sort of thing you go in for. It does involve, as 'Volgadon' noted, a significant change of mood; so it is useful to note that.

I wonder why the producers of the Hardy adaptation shoe-horned it in, though. There are any number of fine songs that we know were sung in Wessex at the period in which 'Tess' was set, and many of these Hardy himself refers to in his books. Not only is there no evidence that 'The Snows' was ever known there, there's no particular reason to think that it was sung anywhere at all until it began to be reprinted in collections of Northeastern music; all after 'Tess' was written, incidentally.

It's another example, I fear, of the shoddy research that is so often evident when folk song is included in television drama. A great deal of effort and expense is put into ensuring that costume and other detail is accurate, and in this production reasonable care seems to have gone into seeing that the dance music was appropriate. A pity, then, that they have lapsed into crass anachronism in this case. The tune (Briggs' 1960s form of it) made a nice effect at the closing credits, but with a little effort something that Tess (or Hardy) might actually have known could have been used with equal effect.

Further comment on that side of things might usefully be made in the discussion Tess of the D'Urbervilles.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: GUEST,GUESTAndrew
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 05:22 PM

Great thread. The reason I checked this thread was because of a comment that kept popping up when I searched for the words on Google, which didn't seem probable. The source of the comment seems to be from Daniel Renbourn's YouTube video of the song:

"DanielRenbourn
July 30, 2007
According to John Stokoe in Songs and Ballads of Northern England, This melody was picked up from a street singer in Scotland in 1821."

The video is at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUygekEd3DI
It's interesting, because the singer tells a little story before the song starts about the song being sung in a Scottish kitchen before finding its way to England.

Any ideas?

Cheers,
Andrew

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Fergie
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 01:02 PM

Hi

In earlier posts to this thread our good friend and deeply missed Mudcatter, the late Malcolm Douglas made reference to an article in Blackwood's Magazine. This article is now available online and I am taking the liberty of inserting a link to it here

The Snows They Melt the Soonest


Fergus

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: BobKnight
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 08:25 PM

"Gowk's-Hall?" In Scots, a "gowk" is a stupid person. :)

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Effsee
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:13 PM

Bob ,another Scots definition of a "gowk" is a cuckoo.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jul 09 - 12:07 PM

It also is typical of humour in Blackwood's.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: GUEST,meriel
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 10:14 AM

God help us, Sting's recorded The Snows... now. Aaarrrghh!

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Maryrrf
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 02:13 PM

So has anybody heard Sting's version yet?

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Mr Fox
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 02:16 PM

So has anybody heard Sting's version yet?

Yep. It is projectile vomit-inducingly awful. He understands the tradition about as much as a stunned woodlouse.

Horslip's version is my favourite.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 02:38 PM

googled, downloaded and listened..

voice aint too bad, at least Sting sings with a 'genuine'regional accent...

the guitar gets trite and irritating, I started getting bored before half way,
then the bollox 'sophisticated jazz' part totally shafts the 2nd half.

well.. I'd wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Reinhard
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:06 PM

Last Friday and Saturday I heard two wonderful unaccompanied renditions of The Snows They Melt the Soonest by Dutch singer Linde Nijland. She said in her introduction that she learned it from Dick Gaughan's singing.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Maryrrf
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:14 PM

I listened to a snippet on Amazon.com - not impressed.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Reinhard
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:18 PM

Maryrrf: Your comment might be ambiguous. I'm sure you are referring to Sting not Linde as her version isn't on Amazon.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Maryrrf
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 07:39 PM

Sorry about the confusion. Yes I was talking about the Sting version. I had not heard of Linde but pulled up some clips of her singing and she has a lovely voice - I'm sure she would do a wonderful version of "The Snows They Melt The Soonest"

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Maryrrf
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM

My version of "The Snows" is now on my MySpace page: http://www.myspace.com/maryfsmith

Oh and if any 'catters would like to by my friend on Myspace please 'friend me!

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 08:11 AM

"Subject: RE: snows they melt ... - author?
From: Malcolm Douglas - PM
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 03:02 PM

The Snows they Melt the Soonest - midi from Doubleday's notation (details above). As stated earlier, it's a White Cockade variant, known to Doubleday as My Love is Newly Listed and under that name used by him for his song The Auld Fisher's Last Wish."

***

I can't read music yet.. But I'd love to hear the original tune for this song! The midi linked to however, is now dead.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 08:02 AM

The tune for "My Love Is Newly Listed" is in the Northumbrian Minstrelsy, and I have ABCs for the whole book on my website:

http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/BruceStokoe.abc

You know what to do with ABCs, I guess?

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: JHW
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 05:03 PM

Maryrrf   Thanks for your gentle version on myspace. You've done the same as myself in transposing the two middle verses. I'd always had difficulty remembering which verse came next but after the swap it flows easily. John

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 12:05 PM

If ever you've visited German or Alsatian wine country in winter, you quickly learn that the snows they melt the soonest over the best vineyards. I'd drink to that.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: GUEST,PLEASE help
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:36 PM

Hello --

I've read all the comments on this page, very interesting!

I fell in love with this song when I heard it on a haunting remake of Thomas Hardy's "Tess of the D'Urbevilles" and can't get it out of my mind since.

I'm a young female musician and have worked on a beautiful version that I would love to share but does anyone know if this song is considered Public Domain? I'm just a young starving artist :) trying to make my way and I fear that if I put my version on the internet or sample it in a song I could be sued. I assume it is P.D. but my lack of expertise in this area leaves me stumped.

Thank you SOO much for reading this -- please, if you do know send me an email at [e-mail] -- once again, THANK YOU!

PEACE
LOVE
&
LIGHT

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:07 PM

Words and music both published in the early 19th century. It's as public domain as a song can get.

On the other hand, your arrangement is yours alone. Your worry is not that you might be sued but that you might need to sue somebody, if a Paul Simon gets hold of it.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: GUEST,julius cäsar
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:15 AM

there is another version from a nordfrisian band, dragseth duo, see this page:http://www.atelier-knortz.de/folkmusik.html
they have also added their version as mp3 download. I like their version better than stings, seems more original to me, but I managed only to hear those and one of a woman, she bit changed the lines. she has a beautiful voice, cara dillon her name

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: GUEST,Mel Pitts
Date: 21 Mar 15 - 11:52 AM

Does anyone know the tuning that Dick Gaughan used on his recording of The Snows They Melt The Soonest?

Subject: RE: Origins: The Snows They Melt the Soonest
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 21 Mar 15 - 02:51 PM

Really excellent thread, and the fact that it has recently been bumped up has alerted me to the superb Linde Nijland. Never heard of her before, but she is really, really good.