Carrying it on

Subject: Carrying it on
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 May 21 - 12:33 PM

Who is going to carry folk music on? You could ask the same question about Doo Wop. Where are the young singers, musicians and groups? Yes, I know there are a few young folksingers and musicians. I also know there is a community of young folkaingers. There is a Connecticut Folk Festival that's been successful for many years. I am as unfamiliar with their music as they probably are of the folk music I love. I question myself. What am I doing to carry on the tradition in folk music? I can use the excuse that I am old. Being "old" is a convenier excuse. My father couldn't hear well, but he could hear "suppers ready" clear as a bell. His hearing mysteriously got worse when my mother asked him to take out the garbage. :-) On the rare occasion when I've gone to hear a young folksinger I bring the average age of the audience up by 30 years. Where is the cross pollinzation?

I have two sons who grew up with folk music as much as nyone. Neither of them are musicians, or fans of folk music. When I think of my folk music frciends, which are numberous, very few of their kids are carrying on the tradition.

I assign no fault here. If anything, I criticize myself. I think I need to get out more and hear younger acoustic musicians. I need to listen without prejudice. Maybe somebody under 50 might be interested in the older folk music.

I write this with appreciation for Chris Thieme, Linnea, David and Robin Payton, and Jacob Dylan. You may know a few more, and I'd be glad to hear about them.

And where are the new generation of Doo Wop singers? I'll ask my friends in the Doo Wop community.

Just askin'

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: GerryM
Date: 08 May 21 - 07:54 PM

Doo Wop to others as you would have them Doo Wop to you.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 08 May 21 - 09:15 PM

The late Frank Zappa, I recollect,
could wax really passionate verbally
in his praise of doo-wop
and how it was in danger of extinction.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 May 21 - 10:21 PM

Hey, K: Yes... he wrote Memories of El Monte for the Penguins.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 08 May 21 - 10:31 PM

OP: Who is going to carry folk music on?...Where are the young singers, musicians and groups?

It takes three: Producer-artist-consumer. The genre really doesn't matter.

The task of picking 'it' up and carying 'it' on is, mostly, up to the consumer. Typically not the same lot for cutting edge new, mainstream pop and comeback/revival evolutions.

If they live long enough, even major mainstream artists like Bob Dylan and Paul McCartney will spend the second half of a lifetime trying to (re)fill their own shoes.

PS FZ: The Persuasions

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 21 - 01:23 AM

folk music imo is home made music it is not about consumerism, that is how it differs from pop music. the genre matters absolutely. this music is about to alarge extent doing it for ones own plesure

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 May 21 - 01:50 AM

Technically, Zappa wrote "Memories of El Monte" for Art Laboe, who at 95 years old is still carrying on -- he's on the radio 7 nights a week. When Art Laboe passes, the Chicano community etc. will carry it on. As the phrase goes, "Oldies Forever."

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 09 May 21 - 03:43 AM

Sandman: Home made is not unique or exclusive to folk; the famous folkie songwriter Paul Campbell never lived and most every record store you or I have ever set foot in had a "Folk" section*.

Whatever else it may be, Folk is/was also a popular genre.

*I've noticed some parts of it, the Country that's not Western, moving over to "Oldies" section lately. Signs of the times.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jeri
Date: 09 May 21 - 11:12 AM

Folk was never popular, other than the "scare" in the 50s. Briefly. We complain that more people aren't involved, and when more people ARE, we complain that it's tuning into pop music.

It's never going to be huge, but it always persists. Investigate "Youth Traditional Song Weekend", with some non-youths who go. (I know a bunch of people in those photos!)Thing is, these days, people are spread out all over, but can connect because of the internet.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 May 21 - 01:15 PM

The comments about folk music are right on. Folk music will never be popular music for any period of time. It takes the "Folk" out of folk music. I comfortably live in Doo Wop, Folk music and old gospel, black and white. All three forms of music come up through folks... folk folks, religious folks and urban kids.

Many years ago, a talent scout from Nashville was going around to open mic nights looking for new talent. I was singing at an open mic night and he came over and told me how much he liked my music and songwriting. Barry Sadler, who had a massive hit with the Ballad of the Green Berets was one of his artists and was with him. He invited me to come down to Nashville. I was recently divorced and was raising two young sons on my own and had a responsible job. There was no way I could accept the offer. In honesty, I wouldn't have, even if I was single. I've always played music the way I want to play it, for my own pleasure and the pleasure I give to a small audience. I never regretted turing down opportunities. I have no criticism of those who seek commercial success.

I see much in common with Doo Wop and folk music. People in the southern mountains sat on the front porch with a few friends, singing for the pure pleasure of it. Doo Woppers gathered under street lamps or in tiled bathrooms or empty rooms and sang for the pure pleasure of it. Some get discdovered when they're young and not immersed in family life and long-term jobs. For most, getting discovere3d is not the thing. The joy of singing is.

I like the term Group Harmony. That covers Doo Wop, folk, country and any form of music where people sing together. It may not have commercial excess, but people love to sing. I've been surprised over the years to realize that not only does God like to sing, but in the bible He constantly encourages people to sing.

Singing harmony is what comes naturally.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jeri
Date: 09 May 21 - 02:15 PM

I've been doing kirtan, chanting in Hindu, Buddhist traditions. I haven't analyzed why atheistic me would want to do it. Beyond the fact that wolves and humans like to howl at the moon in packs, anyway.

Regarding getting "discovered", I think invoking the "industry" is one of the worst things that can happen to a musician. I watch the Voice, and I believe the people who get exposure, but don't win, and get roped into a recording contract, with managers the demands of labels, are the true winners. I've seen a couple of former contestants, and what they wound up with were careers. Sometimes winners can ride the wave of fame successfully, but I think it also hurts some, maybe most (?), of them.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 21 - 03:25 PM

Jeri , tradtional music was popular in one sense in ireland, in the sense that it was part of the mainstream culture.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 May 21 - 04:32 PM

Jeri: I never wanted to be discovered. I never set out to make money with my music. So far, so good. I've lost money and gained a lifetime of pleasure for myself, and a few others. There's more than money in music.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 21 - 04:33 PM

can i echo jerrys sentiments. i chose my path deliberately , i could have been a pop singer but chose not to

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jeri
Date: 09 May 21 - 05:16 PM

Jerry, was it unclear I was saying "being discovered" and "stardom" wasn't as good as having a career?

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 09 May 21 - 06:11 PM

I'm not an artist. I'm a discographer. I just count the legs and divide by two:

Producers: Folk-Legacy Records & Brewhouse Music.
Artists: Dick Miles (2) & Jerry Rasmussen.

A dozen or so commerical credits, the consumers spoke their piece, or not, and there you are. Woulda, coulda, shoulda been? Not my department.

Woody Guthrie; Pete Seeger and Ewan MaColl otoh... over 5000 releases between the three. Which of them does not qualify as a folk artist?

Plus Harry Belafonte; Bela Fleck and Ladysmith Black Mambazo &c &c &c with their gold Folk statuettes up on the mantels. Bruce Springsteen earned one carrying on about some guy named Tom Joad... whoever he was...

Back on topic, shanties seem to be faring on quite well at the mo.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 May 21 - 09:27 PM

There is a difference between a career (many of my close friends... Chris Shaw beingh a fine example, have had good lifetime careers.) They would be the first to say they have been stars. Folk Stars is somewhat of an oxymoron. Not many of those. In difference circumnstances, I might have followed that light for awhile. I would never have been nationally known. I chose the path that reflected who I was and who I am, as have many others. To each his zone. My zone by choice was front porch.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 21 - 01:35 AM

As long as i am well enough i wi;; sit and play music in my front porch for my own pleasure, the fact that i have made recordings does not later the fact that i sit in my front porch and enjoy music that i am making, because i like being creative. if i never had amother gig i could not stop myself from doing this

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 21 - 01:36 AM

its as if i am possessed

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 10 May 21 - 02:25 AM

If 'it' = your personal enjoyment, how could anyone carry it on without you? The thread topic is moot.

If 'it' = folk music, traditional, contemporary, whatever, the music that connects with the most consumers gets carried forward. Nevermind getting rich and famous, you could be dead and gone, no problemo.

If either of you own more than a half dozen songbooks and/or records, you've participated in defining and carrying folk forward more as a consumer than artist.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 21 - 02:57 AM

you do not understand do you. you are simplifying a complicated situation.   in answer to your first question yes. someone would hear it.
last week i sat in ballydehob in the sunshine for two hours playing and singing ,i was not playing for money i was passing the music on , no commercial transaction involved, playing for the love of it, passing it on.
3.IF I accept your statement [which i think is an over simplification] answr this
I carry music on to somebody else, so i was playing music in my garden yesterday with another musician , no money involved i am doing it and passing it on for the love of it, i am passing creativity on no money involved i am not doing it to be a star i am doing it for the love of playing . i am not a consumer i am someone who is being creative.
is it about what your intentions are when you are playing, is it about playing to create pleasure oR to make money. and on occasions it can be both, on other occassions neither
finally on occasions it is possible to do both at the same time.
Tom Joad was a charcter in a book by john steinbeck, grapes of wrath you would do well to read it it might enlighten you

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 10 May 21 - 05:14 AM

Did you hear about the folksinger who won the Lottery
He was asked if it would make any difference to his life.

'No' he replied, 'I'll just keep on doing gigs till it's all gone'

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 May 21 - 05:44 AM

An interesting philosophical question. When I was a young person I enjoyed folk music because it was there, and because I have experienced it, the thought of it not longer being there (for me) would be a great loss.

But, if it hadn't been there in the first place, or if all reference to folk had mysteriously vanished, then there would be nothing to have a sense of loss about.

Folk will always be there, waiting for individuals to discover it and decide whether or not they want more - just as hearing Fairport Conventions Rising for the Moon on the radio was the starting point to move my interests from heavy metal to folk.

In term of 'carrying it on', that will always happen thanks to the wealth of printed and recorded material that will always be there. Shanties and Music Hall were both ephemeral as there 'stages' died out, ie sail giving way to steam and the stage giving way to cinema and TV - however there is still a strong interest in both genres not just performers, but also people who happen on the music.

The other aspect is that access to live music is now much more open and democratised. Dick singing on his porch (and I can't get the image of a latter-day Cecil Sharp passing by and discovering him out of my head.) could also equate to social media feeds and internet conferencing.

The flip side of this is whether or not folk can be monetarised in the future. Even if it isn't it will still be there, but this begs the question that if there are no avenues for 'professionals' who have taken the time to learn their art, is there a risk that the nuances that define something as folk may be lost, and the points of reference to get these back confined to dusty archives or on the thousandth page in a google search?

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 21 - 06:26 AM

thats a great joke jim

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 May 21 - 08:59 AM

I don't have a worry about any of this. Many things occur in cycles and interest in a particular genre is particularly prone to this. I think Phil's comment about the current popularity of chanties is very apt.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 May 21 - 09:30 AM

Sandman: Oh, I understand it very well. Except for the pandemic break (which is lifting now,) I have been playing music in hospital wards, nursing homes and senior centers since 1963. The first time I sang was in a children's Cancer Ward. I haver once accepoted money, although others playing in the same places ask and get paid. I sit on my front porch and play when the weather allows. I have six CDs out and am working on a seventh. When I run across someone, whether I know them or not, I give them one of my CDs or the books I've written. I do it out of love and to encourage people who are having a hard time. I don't do it to keep the music alive. I do it in hope that I can lift them up for a few minutes.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 May 21 - 09:34 AM

I don't think folk music will ever die. People will sing the old songs and write new ones because it is good to sing and play music. I will; nhever stop playingsinging, and making up new songs. I'll sing and play and tell stories in nursing home after I end up living in one.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 21 - 10:31 AM

jerry, my comment about understanding was aimed at phil, not you. in my case i do it for pleasure other peoples and my own, i do it to keep the music going/alive because i like the music. its possible to do something for more than one reason

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 May 21 - 12:16 PM

Thanks Sandman. I was running when I read your post and I thought it was directed at me. I guess I have to adjust again to Mudcat. I've been off here for more than ten years (not from a snit or disatisfaction. Life impinged.

I'm used to being to replay to a specific person's post. I find it limiting that you can't do that on here. I'm trying to refer to the person's name or moniker when I am responding to a comment. I very much appreciate your response.

This conversation is bouncing around all overr the place. That suits me fine. It's hard for me, and I assume others, to express an opinion without oversimplifying the issue. Typing these little sentences on here is not the same as a give and take in person conversation. I would much prefer that, but this will do. I've had opportunities throughout my life to do more with music than I have: not because I am particularly gifted. I already had a life, and while it has had it's limitations, it's been a rewarding life. Tom Paxton and I were friends for a few years when our paths crossed. He told me once that I have the best life because I can sing and play what I want with no concern if it has any commercial value. He's right. It sounds like you have had that in your life, too. Good for you. Folk music is a good name. It's for folks. No pretenses allowed. :-)

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 10 May 21 - 12:31 PM

Dick: I understand business communication and four function maths. The more any artist, in any genre or medium, seeks to please themselves the narrower the niche for the product. Only you are you.

The vast majority of available music goes completely unheard by any one consumer. There aren't enough waking hours in a human lifetime to experience all of it. Everybody, from Moe Asch to you, begins the process as a nonconsumer, an unaware listener. Something has to catch your ear or eye to bring it to your attention or you'll miss it altogether.

It's not that the commercial process works and the amateur does not. It's the probablity of your much, much smaller consumer base, outperforming Woody Guthrie's & Bruce Springsteen's millions carrying forward, artists and producers, amateurs and pros all inclusive.

PS: Springsteen, Guthrie, Steinbeck & Joad, Inc... anybody here seen any good creosote dumps lately? ;)

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 May 21 - 01:07 PM

oh well if i didnt please myselfand a few others i would not be doing it

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 May 21 - 01:57 PM

We're talking about apples and orangutans on here. folk music and commercially viable folk music. To me, they're completely different. I don't care if there's never another Kingston Trio, or Peter., Paul, and Marcy. They too have their value. I'm talking about folk music... music made by folks like you and me. I'll keep writing songs, singing old songs and playing music because I love doing it, and there will always be some people who want to hear it. This discussion is also not about ME. It's about kids that are in their teens and early to mid twenties who may never hear it; not because it doesn't make the top 40, but because they're not aware of it. There will always be folk societies and small venues where it will be played, and folks getting together and playing it for the shear pleasure of playing it. I hope that people hear Charlie Poole's and Mississippi John Hurt's music still gets played. If mine doesn't is neither here nor there. If a song or two is remembered and kept alive, that would be nice. I just hope there are enough of us committed so that people hear the old master's music.. played by some kid not yet born, or on a CD when CDs are in the same category as Edison cylinders. It's my hope, because I think the old music is a treasure.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 10 May 21 - 02:21 PM

Jerry: Point of order, are Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger & Ewan MacColl the orangs or the apples?

If the topic is 'carrying it on' your methods give you both fewer opportunities to connect with others and worse odds of doing so when the opportunity does present itself. They were awful to begin with under the best of circumstances. It's about people who are not you who will be 'carrying it on.'

If the topic is what you care about and how you prefer to to live your life, it's about you.

Orangs & apples I would agree.

Subject: RE: Carrying it on
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 May 21 - 10:32 PM

It's hard to figure who's talking to who's on here. People use monikers, and then everyone else refers to others by their real name. This place is ingrown. :-)