What does 'modal' really mean?

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: GUEST,mick
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:17 AM

There's an article in today's Guardian about the reconstruction of ancient greek music that may be of interest .
http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/story/0,,1813964,00.html

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Tootler
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 05:34 AM

Leeneia,

A comment and a question.

The comment. Even modern "classical" Western Music (If you'll excuse the term) has modes. Two to be precise, major and minor. These require different harmonic treatment, but also as with all modes they differ in the pattern of tone and semitone intervals you hear as you play up or down the scale.

And the question. What do you mean by a tune ending up "somewhere modern"?

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 05:29 PM

The answer to the question answer to the question"What does "modal" really mean?" is really another question, which is: "Why do you want to know?"--if the answer what Jack said above:
" if you want to do something with the tune beyond simply playing it exactly the same way you got it on exactly the same instrument. " Then there may be an answer that has some meaning--

However, if the person asking the question just heard the word used and didn't understand the context, then the answer is, "it all depends on the context."

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 08:15 PM

Jac-
No real argument. A knowledge of theory is certainly helpful--but by no means necessary. And an overly-rigorous insistence on theory when theory doesn't really apply results in some of the wierd transcriptions and chordal arrangements that pop up in books.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 06:43 PM

There's no reason why modes can't include microtones like those neutral sevenths - most modal systems have done (ancient Greece, the Indian and Middle Eastern systems). I can't do it in my tutorial because ABC can't handle them - I suggested a way to do it once but nobody took it up. You find that neutral-seventh scale in Shetland and Cape Breton too.

Just playing tunes in a specific mode doesn't require any fancy musical education. Where the theory comes in is if you want to do something with the tune beyond simply playing it exactly the same way you got it on exactly the same instrument. Like if you want to play a pipe tune on a diatonic moothie, accompany a song on a banjo or put together a medley on a harp. That all takes calculation, and you might as well admit you're doing it and use the same words as other people to describe the process.

: Further, the folk [...] don't always stick to any one mode when they sing or play.

Sure, but having a modal system can help you see what they're doing - those variations in mode aren't usually carelessness, they express something. And if the variations are essential to the music, it's worth a bagpiper or one-row melodeon player knowing in advance that they won't be able to do it.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

After many, many years, I've come to a conclusion that the word "mode" is an vastly overused and misunderstood term. A mode is simply a description of the rrangement of whole and half steps in the scale that's used in a song (a Major, or Lydian scale has the intervals
Whole-whole-half-whole-whole-whole-half, while a Myxolydian has wwhole-whole-half-whole-whole-half-whole)

Trouble is, there's a bult in assumption that the scale used progresses in consistent whole and half steps--it ain't necessarily so. I've heard Kentucky musicians playing fiddles and banjos(fretless ones perforce)that consistently played a note in a scle whose root note was D and which had a seventh note somewhere between C natural and C#.

Further, the folk (lacking a formal musical education) don't always stick to any one mode when they sing or play. Trying to force folk music into rigid structures like modes or consistant time signatures is something that Procrustes might have tried.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: GUEST,JAck Campin
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:56 PM

: Sometimes I read here that such-and-such a tune is modal, but I've
: never seen a tune remain in a mode for more than a few measures.

Look at my examples then. The longest is about 100 bars, I think -
I made a specific point of choosing long tunes to anticipate exactly
your misconception. I could easily have chosen much longer ones,
like pibrochs that last nearly half an hour. (Or Indian ragas, which
can go an hour and half without a modulation).

Okay, if what you're interested in is the Beatles then you'd be right.
What sort of tunes *do* you have in mind? Name a few?

The present-day mode system was designed to fit folk music, not the
old church chants. It's been developed for practical purposes, not to
shoehorn traditional music into some ancient classification for the
hell of it.

Just saying a tune is "modal" is meaningless, you need to say *which*
mode it's in.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: oombanjo
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:45 PM

what little I know came from John Harrison, ex Waterson. He instructed me that playing banjo the re was no third note in the chord eg. when playing in G the B in the chord is lifted to C. how he did it on Guitar was to mute the B string and in D he would mute the Fsharp. hope this helps. I find it easy on Banjo as I just lift the B and play out in modal. Hope this helps

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: leeneia
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:55 PM

I think the modes were developed in the middle ages to help hapless monks, nuns and choirs to sight-read the many pieces of music that they needed for the daily whatchacallits (which they sang every four hours) for masses that changed with the church year, and for feasts.

The fact that the modes didn't actually help much is vouched for by the fact that they have been forgotten all these years.

Sometimes I read here that such-and-such a tune is modal, but I've never seen a tune remain in a mode for more than a few measures. By the end of the tune, the piece lands somewhere modern. I think any "modal" effects should be ascribed to creativity on the part of the composer, and good for him/her.

As an enthusiast for early music, I remain interested in the modes, but I don't think they have a thing to do with present traditional music. Even on (gasp) the dulcimer!

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:28 AM

http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tuneget?F=GIF&U=/~jc/music/abc/Scotland/AGJ11.abc&X=1&T=MISTCOVEREDMOUNTAIN

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:35 PM

C.E. Morgan was talking about the Scottish tune I know, not Junior Crehan's jig (because he/she says it's also used for "Hush, hush").

Got an ABC or MIDI for Crehan's tune? It would be interesting to see if there's any resemblance.

Doesn't look like anybody here is that interested in modal fretboard diagrams. So I'll do them for a few instruments I play, upload them and see if anybody would then like to see the concept applied to their own instrument.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:46 AM

It's the A minor dance jig "Mist Covered Mountain" (singular) that Junior is credited with here http://www.irishfiddle.com/junior_crehan_article.html

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:39 AM

"The Mist-Covered Mountains" ("Chi mi na mor-bheanna") is a Scottish Gaelic song first published in the middle of the 19th century. The poet didn't publish the tune with it, but said to use "Johnny's too long at the fair". It's mutated a bit from that since, probably under the influence of the Mod songbook anthologies of a century ago.

It's been standard Gaelic song repertoire for about 150 years. What the heck Junior Crehan might have to do with it I can't imagine.

The tune can take a bit of mode-bending, but in Scotland it's nearly always sung in straight dorian mode, usually based on C.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:50 AM

Holy Modal Rounders

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:41 AM

In reply to C E MORGAN,The mist covered mountain was written by junior crehan, and he performed it in g mixolydian with an f natural.I personally think that this is what gives the tune its beauty, of course you are free to play it how you like,but that was not the way Junior Crehan intended it.all the modes are just another name for scales with altered intervals, including the major scale.you can of course play modal chords in standard tuning, its just they are more difficult than say d ad gad or dadeae. from my own experience you dont get the ringing strings effect in standard tuning.finally the dominant seventh can be used for modal tunes if you omit the third note of the chord. g modal dominant 7 is g d f nat.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Lucius
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 11:51 PM

Haven't been around in ages, but since my name and password are still good from 1999, I'll see what I can do to muddy the waters. I have heard the word MODAL across several genres. Im my music theory classes, it refers to the music of Greece and of the gothic Catholic church. This is what you get when you look up MODAL in the theory texts, but unless you're a eunuch working for the Pope, it probably won't help you much.

As a jazz musician, I used to hear this tossed about regarding specific scales that seemed to fit within the compositional of the post be-bop "cool" period. The quartal harmonies in a tune like Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage lent themselves to improvisations within the dorian mode, and were sometimes refereed to as modal if not directly as dorian.

Later, as a contra/celtic guitarist, I would hear someone occasionally refer to a tune as being MODAL. I never got a good etymology on usage, but I noticed that these tunes generally avoided the dominant chord, substituting a major dropped 7th chord. This would also be the dominant of the relative major, but the tunes were often ambiguous about whether they were major or minor keys. The only example that I can think of is the Butterfly, a slip jig. If you start in Amin, it drops down to a Gmaj--suppose that you could argue that it is out of an AEolean or Dorian mode, but that requires for more thinking than I care to do--when it comes to traditional music.

'coourse it could mean "with Ice Cream" as well. Suppose it depends on the context.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 08:15 PM

Jack Campion –

Your tutorial should be at http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/

The tread you were wanting is at:
a mnemonic for the modes This is a "local link" that works only if you're at mudcat.

If you want to be able to open the thread from "outside the 'cat" you'll have to use the full address: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=92118&messages=100"

John

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

I was actually intending to attach this message to the recent "mnemonic for the modes" thread, but Mudcat's search facility doesn't find it.

I've uploaded a revision of my modes tutorial, see

It occurred to me that it would be useful to include a comprehensive set of ASCII tab and fretboard diagrams, so you can look up how to map (say) E flat dorian/mixolydian hexatonic onto the fretboard of your favourite axe. Instruments I was thinking of include mandolin, DADGAD guitar, ud, C-system accordion, Puerto Rican cuatro, and Boring Ordinary Guitar. What others would be useful? I don't have any experience of the mountain dulcimer or 5-string banjo and I'm not sure whether players of those would want that level of detail.

This would involve hundreds of diagrams, so I'd want some indication of serious interest before putting a virtual finger to a string.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: clare s
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 07:47 PM

This has been really interesting - thanks to everyone who replied - as I expected there's no accurate definition as to what 'modal' means to the modern folkie.

Just for the record, the Beatles 'Within You Without Out You' isnt locrian - it's mixolydian

Not that such things matter that much...

Clare

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 03:32 PM

Sophocleese, just about every thing happens, but I haven't studied all of them. Coding is for good initial screening, not for complete technical description of a tune. Re; mixed ioian/mixolydian: On some one get a sort of short octave where the lower 7th is sharp but the upper one isn't. Some have one way ascending and another descending, and some seem to be random.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 03:16 PM

No, I haven't been to the singing, but I'll certainly watch for it. I know where Benton is (it was half-way to Memphis from where I grew up in Western KY). I live in central KY now but have close relatives in southwest KY near the Land Between the Lakes. I really like the old southern hymn singing and the Appalachian music so I'm right in the middle of lots of music here in KY. We also have some great Irish music in Louisville and then there are the Glasgow games and music each summer where I plan to hear some Scottish music. Did you hear about the time the Glasgow bagpipes played at the KY Derby and scared the horses? I think that was several years back.

Thanks for all your info. I'm still studying.

Mary

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 01:00 PM

Mary in Kentucky, I was hoping there was a way to reverse-engineer the midi! Thanks for taking the trouble.

If the e is e-natural, then the melody is G-dorian. Perhaps this represents the actual singing tradition.

In your own State of Kentucky, in the town of Benton, there meets every year the oldest continuously-meeting shape-note convention in the country (possibly on the planet). This convention uses the 1854 Southern Harmony. Have you ever been to the Benton "Big Singing" ?

T.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 12:35 AM

sophoclese-----if a tune goes from Ionaian major to Mixolydian, it usually only shows up in the "B" section of the tune, but not ALWAYS.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: _gargoyle
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 12:02 AM

Sincerest....most SINCEREST appologies...MARY...(the above remark was NOT intended for you!!! CakeWalk is a premiere program....anyone that wrestles with it is not deserving of derision!!)

PLEASE....the above message was NOT yours, threads got crossed with a "S" name.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: _gargoyle
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 11:58 PM

Cripes!!!!

How could we have expected ANYTHING less!!!

You have had such good mentors

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 11:53 PM

I cheated. I downloaded the midi, opened it in Cakewalk, looked at the staff view as it played, and YES, they are playing an e natural in measures 6 and 18. (key of g min)

So does that mean that this arrangement is G dorian?

I really like these Southern Harmony arrangements with the harmony above the melody and a haunting, hollow sound due I guess to the wide spaces between notes. I think if I just study this one song with only one note to harmonize the melody, then maybe I can better understand harmonizing with chords. Not bad for a novice musician, huh? ;-)

Mary

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 11:36 PM

Bruce O. Just a matter of interest. In the tunes that bounce back and forth between myxolydian and major is there any pattern to the shift? Is it two distinct parts, or it hits the flatted seventh in an ascending sequence and the natural in a descending, maybe the other way round? Or is it somewhat random?

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 11:23 PM

Only recently have I figured out what I think is a reasonable coding scheme for tunes that will handle the 17th century tunes on my website as well as those in my Irish tune index. Among the latter its pretty common to have both major and mixolydian version of the same tune, the difference being the 7th natural and flatted, respectively. But there are many 8 note tunes which seem to bounce between with two with the 7th occurring both as natural and flat.

I've just started coding the 17th century broadside ballad tunes on my website, but I've already been struck by the many basically dorian and aeolian, with the 7th is nomally flat, but where it's either natural (i.e., sharp with respect to normal for the mode) or both flat and natural. "Greensleeves" has a lot of relatives prior to 1700, but these seem to be rather rare among later tunes I've coded. [The number of different notes in tunes is rather higher in music prior to 1700, than in later ones, also, on the average.

The white key notes are used to represent the modes in 'The Sources of Irish Traditional Music', 1998, and in the code indexes on my website, i.e., (in order of increasing flats) f- lydian, c-ionian, g-mixolydian, d-dorian, a-aeolian, e-phygian, and b-locrian. The white note system is convenient, but Bertrand Bronson pointed out that if you don't transpose these to a common keynote, it's not terribly obvious what the difference is (looking at the music that is, not listening).

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 10:27 PM

Mary, if you can, listen to the midi at So. Harmony on line (linked above) and tell me whether it sounds as though they are observing the e-flat in measures 6 and 18 of the melody (2nd line), or ignoring it.

T.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Okeimockbird
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 10:20 PM

Mary in Kentucky, the SH version of Wondrous Love is here, but I was wrong about its mode. It is written in G-minor, with e-flat, rather than in G-dorian, with e-natural. Modern arrangers have modified it to dorian (or dorian-influenced hexatonic, if you prefer), however, e.g. Hymns III, Church Hymnal Corporation, New York, 1979, Hymn 245b, and this is how I am accustomed to singing it.

T.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 09:30 PM

Sorcha--THANKS! I'll send the ole snail mail addy. Vikinglass is getting me into dulcimer playing (soon) and both of us will enjoy the music. If you are registered here, I can send a personal message without anyone seeing either of our e-mail addresses.

Okiemockbird--I LOVE that hymn. It seems that I've gravitated to the modal sound all my life without really realizing what it was. Also, I think I picked up a link from one of your posts a long time ago referring to Southern Harmony. One of the things I enjoy most about the Mudcat is the wonderful links I've found. There are some great ones on the official Mudcat Link page also...and the new forum search engine is awesome!

Mary

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 08:39 PM

The tune "Wondrous Love", though it is hexatonic on a scale (C), D, E, G, A, B, c, (d) can reasonably be designated dorian since it contains the B-natural. The Harmonization in The Southern Harmony includes F, completing the dorian scale, while strongly emphasizing D and A, so the harmonized version might be called dorian even if the melody isn't.

T.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 08:35 PM

whoops, it won't print my e mail address. I'll go to the resources and get it posted right now, don't know when bbc will get it added. Keep checking back.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 08:31 PM

I have some xeroxes of mtn. dulcimer tunes in the weird modes, Locrian, Phrygian,etc. in treble clef, standard notation. If you want to email me your snail mail address, I would send them to you, and some other "hand-outs" that I use for classes in How to Speak Modal to Your Guitar Player. My email is Sorcha

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 07:47 PM

Thanks Sorcha. I'm reading everything that's been posted. I'm also studying Bruce's and Jack's sites.

My goal is to compile a list of songs *I KNOW* ;-) that illustrate each of the modes.

This is really facinating to me. Keep those tunes coming.

Mary

PS Is there a book or site on the 'net that would use Gregorian chants that illustrate various modes?

PPS Does Ralph Vaughan Williams' music use one mode more than others? Or do I just recognize the "English folk song" sound as being not ionian or aeolian?

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 07:20 PM

Mountain dulcimer players are ALWAYS in mode, and we consider both Ionian and Aeolian to be modes also. Here is an EZ primer: If you have acess to a key board, play a scale starting from middle C, only on the WHITE KEYS, Tis is Ionian. Start on D, play only on the WHITE KEYS and it's Dorian, from E it's Phrygian, from F(nat) it's Lydian, from G, it's Mixolydian, A is Aeolian,and B is Locrian. The trick is to play the scales only on the white keys. If you want to hear modal harmonies, get "Chant", a plainsong CD. They're all on there. By keeping the same interval pattern in the scale, a modal tune can be played in any key, such as A Mixolydian or A Dorian. "Old Joe Clark" is Mixolydian, LochLavin Castle and Shady Grove are Dorian, Wayfaring Stranger is Aoelian. Hardly anybody uses the others anymore, because they are very strange sounding, and yes, difficult to harmonize to. Mixolydian is the most common, after Major and minor. Usually it just means a flatted 7th, and lots of Scottish/pipe tunes are in A Mix. because pipes can't play a G#. Did I just confuse you more?

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Arkie
Date: 16 Jan 00 - 06:48 PM

Richard, the references that I have been able to check regarding an 8 note scale have been counting the starting note twice, as you have done above. Don't know why they do that. Seems like it would be simpler and more straight forward to refer to the scale as a seven tone scale. Which some folks actually do.

There was a comment earlier about Old Joe Clark being played in the Dorian mode. Out here in the Ozarks, we use the Mixolydian mode for that tune. The flatted seventh note makes that modal tuning a natural for that particular piece. Another tune in the Mixolydian mode which was once played a lot around here is Harrison Town. This is a native Arkansas song. Have not checked the data base for the it, but will post it later if it is not there.

I mentioned in another thread, the Lennon and McCartney song Norwegian Wood which makes use of the flatted seventh note and is therefore a tune in the Mixolydian mode.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jan 00 - 07:07 PM

What 8 notes? Like "doh, re, mi, fah, so, lah, te, doh". Or minor equivalent. Makes 7 if you count the octave the same as the root.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 15 Jan 00 - 07:54 AM

I've reworked Barry Taylor's fine version of Rales of Mallow to convert it to G Modal, but don't know how to get it into the new MUDI site that Max is now providing. My email link is sick. ALAN, CAN YOU PLEASE LET ME KNOW. rEGARDS, jOHN.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 09:39 AM

LEJ--Here's Bruce's Site.

And Sam--Thanks, there are some great links at the Mudcat link page which explain fingerstyle, etc. My son has a nice singing voice, so he has many options.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Sam Hudson
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 08:04 AM

Mary - one of the nice things about the guitar is that you can work with 'single note' melody lines and chordal work. I suggest your son try both and see how he progresses; I was a wannabe rock god at the age of 13 and worked hard on lead lines on my electric, but then I grew up, realised I'd look like an idiot in spandex trousers, and took up the acoustic. Since most of my playing is accompanying songs or in sessions (and in both cases the melody is being carried elsewhere) I tend to do more work with chords these days, but both styles are worth studying.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 12:20 AM

Bruce... could you kindly list your web address one more time?

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: jofield
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 11:10 PM

I always thought modal meant a cross between major and minor: "Sweet Sunny South" sounds mighty modal to me.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Barbara
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 11:09 PM

John's theory about playing F and G chords alternating for a "modal" song works if the song is in Dorian. (Old Joe Clark) However if it is in Myxolydian (Paddy's Green Shamrock Shore) and A modal, you would use A, G and D chords rather than A, D and E7. I think that's right. In other words you have moved around the circle of fifths and are using the chords for D ionian.
The Beatles song "Within You Without You" by George Harrison (on Sgt. Peppers with sitar) is in locrian.
Someone said "The Cambells are Coming is in phrygian, I haven't checked it out.
Coolin of Rhum, and lots of Scots songs including the early versions of Auld Lang Syne are in myxolydian.
I know a version of the Unquiet Grave in Lydian. Possibly the PPM song Lemon Tree is partly lydian (or else it just modulates, anyone?)
That's something for most of the less familiar modes.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 10:35 PM

As it happens I think many melodies that are commonly called "modal" are in fact drone-compatible, but the meaning is so vague I don't think we can be sure the folk who are calling a piece of music "modal" necessarily mean the same think as "drone-compatible".

T.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 09:52 PM

That's sort of true putting it a bit backwards. According to what I read, (I think it was Encyclopedia Brittanica) most professional composers gave up composing in anything but ionian(major) and aeolian (minor) in the period c 1575 -c 1600, because to was too difficult to make harmonizing parts in the other modes.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Bryant
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 03:31 PM

My (unschooled) understanding of 'modal' was that it refered to songs that have no definable chord progression. That is, a 'G modal tune' is one you that could (as a guitarist) simply strum a G all the way through without it ever sounding wrong. (Not that you'd actually want to do that.) So in modal songs the melody (or mode) is the defining element rather than the chord changes (as it is in blues or country).

I could (however) be utterly wrong here.

B.

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 03:13 PM

I have no idea what you mean by old and new "Greensleeves". Among the 6 versions of the tune from the late 16th century to 1728 given as ABCs on my website (B168-173), from the 1st to 2nd stressed notes ('las' to 'love') there's either 0 or 4 semitones difference. The older ones tend to start 35 rather than 33, (3 is flatted, so it's 4 semitones to the 5) but that's not strictly valid for all of them. [See stressed note codes for them in file BBBMCODE.TXT]

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: CE Morgan
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 10:57 AM

I know virtually nothing about music theory, but here are a couple of common examples of modal songs which have been "corrected" to modern sensibilities.

First - Greensleeves. The two alternate versions of the melody, the older one goes up a semitone on "love" (Alas, my love"), while the more modern one goes up a full tone.

Second - Mist-Covered Mountains. The version I play on harp has an F#, but I've heard my husband play it on the pipes with an F nat. Also, the tune "Hush, hush" is the same tune, also with the F natural.

I agree with an earlier reply to this thread about the harmonies of modal melodies - I have a number of Irish tune books where the accompanying chord is marked with a slash through it. This indicates that the third is not to be used.

Cindy Ellen

Subject: RE: What does 'modal' really mean?
From: Okiemockbird
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 10:43 AM

"Modality", if it means anything, is complicated by mode degeneracy. The 7-note scale on D is D-dorian; the 7-note scale on D with B-flat is D-aeolian. A melody with only 6 notes of this scale, avoiding B/B-flat, can be assigned either to the dorian or the aeolian mode: The two form a degenerate pair, the degeneracy only being removed by the presence of the B or B-flat. When I invent melodies in the dorian mode, I make sure to emphasize the B-natural and the A <--> B-natural whole tone, to emphasise the melody's dorian character.

Likewise in G-myxolydian it seems possible to give a melody a myxolydian character by emphasizing C and F in certain ways before ending on G. A well-known myxolydian melody, Gregorian psalm tone 7, seems to do this.

But I don't see how lumping myxolydian character and dorian character under "modal character", though it may be logically sound, gets us very far in practice. Besides, as clare points out, a melody's major or chromatic minor character is just a "modal" as any other melody's "modal" character. Merely a different mode is used.

T.