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BS: Black Anne Boleyn

punkfolkrocker 09 Jun 21 - 11:07 AM
Big Al Whittle 09 Jun 21 - 08:27 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 Jun 21 - 01:25 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 21 - 04:25 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Jun 21 - 04:11 AM
The Sandman 08 Jun 21 - 02:42 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jun 21 - 07:21 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Jun 21 - 05:24 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 07 Jun 21 - 04:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Jun 21 - 06:51 AM
The Sandman 05 Jun 21 - 01:00 PM
meself 05 Jun 21 - 12:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jun 21 - 12:30 PM
Jack Campin 05 Jun 21 - 11:33 AM
The Sandman 05 Jun 21 - 03:03 AM
The Sandman 05 Jun 21 - 02:38 AM
Mr Red 05 Jun 21 - 02:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jun 21 - 04:58 AM
meself 03 Jun 21 - 04:57 PM
Raedwulf 03 Jun 21 - 03:26 PM
meself 03 Jun 21 - 02:47 PM
Mr Red 03 Jun 21 - 02:26 PM
Mr Red 03 Jun 21 - 02:17 PM
Manitas_at_home 03 Jun 21 - 01:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Jun 21 - 12:24 PM
Raedwulf 03 Jun 21 - 12:15 PM
meself 03 Jun 21 - 10:59 AM
Raedwulf 03 Jun 21 - 10:17 AM
Bonzo3legs 03 Jun 21 - 08:22 AM
Raggytash 03 Jun 21 - 07:54 AM
The Sandman 03 Jun 21 - 06:54 AM
meself 02 Jun 21 - 09:11 PM
Jack Campin 02 Jun 21 - 08:25 PM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jun 21 - 03:49 PM
Mr Red 02 Jun 21 - 03:15 PM
Raedwulf 02 Jun 21 - 12:48 PM
meself 02 Jun 21 - 11:24 AM
Big Al Whittle 02 Jun 21 - 05:07 AM
Raggytash 02 Jun 21 - 04:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jun 21 - 03:33 AM
Mr Red 02 Jun 21 - 02:09 AM
punkfolkrocker 02 Jun 21 - 01:39 AM
The Sandman 02 Jun 21 - 01:23 AM
vectis 02 Jun 21 - 12:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 21 - 04:22 PM
The Sandman 01 Jun 21 - 04:14 PM
The Sandman 01 Jun 21 - 04:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 21 - 03:53 PM
Donuel 01 Jun 21 - 02:51 PM
meself 01 Jun 21 - 01:02 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 11:07 AM

Al - I have no time or intention for watching any telly series at the moment..

If I did, historic dramas anout royalty would not be top of the list..

However when I was a teenager in the 1970s,
I'd watch any old tripe boring history, or modern arty farty, dramas
in hope there were glimpses of naked women..

All the better when my dad finally gave in and rented a colour telly...


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 08:27 AM

I think the basic problem is that not many people can be arsed to watch the programme I was hoping to initiate a discussion about.

So people (lets be charitable and say they don't want a lovely fellow like me talking to meself) so they are playing familiar themes from their favourite records.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 01:25 PM

For Big Al - Black, Asian and minority ethnic (BAME), still used a lot in England, though I believe some are not so keen on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 04:25 AM

Setting aside all this racism (and there's a fair bit of it in this thread): reinterpretation of historical tales, of plays and of operas, whether that means boys playing girls, blacks playing whites, the "wrong gender person" singing a folk love-song, translating things into English, dragging a seventeenth century tale into a twenty-first century setting, it's all par for the course and grist to the mill and artistic licence. Whether it works for you is for you to decide, and if you don't like it, you can set it aside. Certain decisions along those lines could cast you as racist if you go large with them. But, at the end of the day, you pick and choose the bits of culture that are edifying for you and ignore the rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 04:11 AM

Who is BAME?

I'm being acronymed out of this conversation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 21 - 02:42 AM

perhaps we could have had princess anne playimg anne boleyn and prince andrew as henry 8


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 07:21 PM

As I said earlier, if doing it provokes the "I'm not racist.. but.." brigade
to 'out' themselves to public scrutiny...

..ahem... "I'm not racist.. but.. there's too many of 'em taking our TV presenter jobs..."...


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 05:24 PM

Well they've done it. As far as I can see they haven't spent a fortune on it.

I'm just sorry, it hasn't been done to make a point.....perhaps it does make the point that theres no no-go areas for black performers.

If that's all it was about - fair enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 04:36 PM

When I first repatriated from Australia to England in 1997, there was an argument that people of African and Asian origin were not fairly represented by our media; that may still apply to the latter but certainly not the former - they have been the flavour of the month for many years now.

E.g., very few BAME live in the countryside here but almost every episode of the BBC's Countryfile has a presenter of African origin - they are now over-represented by our media; and, of course, positive discrimination for one group of people is negative discrimination for everyone else - including English content to do their bit in their native land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 06:51 AM

Watched the whole thing last night.

I don't really know what to make of it. I'm not even sure if it was sympathetic to Anne or not, which seeing as she got her head cut off is saying something.

Was she promised her life if she signed some document - I didn't know that. Wouldn't put it past the rotten sods.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 01:00 PM

jack, i know exactly who alf garnett was and that he was a piss taker. also bonzo does not generally talk racist shit he is a conservative but he has condemned racism in the past. jack before you slander him check your facts


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: meself
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 12:44 PM

"IT surely is a question of what is appropriate and historically acurate" - That would depend entirely on the nature of the production: if it is intended to be "historically acurate", then yes (I have no idea what "appropriate" means in this context). Although, having said that, I have often seen, in productions that purport to be straight-ahead history, wildly inaccurate representations of historical figures and heard no fuss about it.

Sidney Poitier (is he still alive?) as head of the KKK? Why not? That might make for an interesting bit of theatre. A Black cast playing the Founding Fathers was a big success with "Hamilton" ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 12:30 PM

"Some thick-as-two-short-planks moderator", Jack? Are you sure you want to go down that route? Maybe you should just storm off in a Diva style huff and unfriend them on Facebook rather than risk getting banned from here. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 11:33 AM

Warren Mitchell was as anti-racist as it gets. Somebody didn't notice that his Alf Garnett character was a sustained and brilliant pisstake.

Some thick-as-two-short-planks moderator hadn't even heard of him and was too lazy to look him up, hence deleted the comment where I pointed out that he could talk the same disgusting racist shit Bonzo here has been coming out with and make it parodic and funny. Rather than just disgusting racist shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 03:03 AM

IT surely is a question of what is appropriate and historically acurate , would you cast sidney poitier as the head of the ku klux klan?
should jesus christ be played by a Scotsman, fyfe roberston perhaps


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 02:38 AM

how about MARTIN lUTHER KING played by WARREN MITCHELL, OR EVEN OSWALD MOSLEY


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 02:06 AM

And wot U say to them wot ask abart Border Morris wiv thair sticks and faces coloured otherly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 04:58 AM

When explaining different types of Morris to the uninitiated I used to tell them that in the Cotswold tradition they wore soft shoes so they could leap up high to encourage crops to grow. In the North West tradition they wear clogs to stamp down hard and loosen the coal in t'pit


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: meself
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:57 PM

In some cultures, 'a small smile, a crook of the lip, a brief, silent "Oh well...""' indicate hostility, and are considered aggressive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 03:26 PM

Christ (this from a pagan! :p ), but you lot are bleedin' 'ard work sometimes. Can we at least agree on "let's try to be nice to everyone else. Even if it means a small smile, a crook of the lip, a brief, silent "Oh well...""

You're no more perfect than I am. And I know I'm imperfect. Nitpicky bunch of pedantic... :p ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: meself
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 02:47 PM

And "First Nations" refers only to those Indigenous (groups of) people formerly known as "Indians" - the Inuit are a separate group altogether, and tend to resent being lumped in with those others, in my experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 02:26 PM

Eskimo - AFAIK there are a Geographic group of "First Nationers" who actually prefer to be called Eskimo, and certainly want distinction from the appellation "Inuit". I guess it all depends on which Aluet/Iñupiat/Yupik you ask.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 02:17 PM

I always thought the black face traddy thing was to do with miners

Ah, well, er, um, let us just say there are as many answers as there are Morris dancers to answer.

In Victorian times, "black" face was easy to make from bacon/beef fat & burnt cork. And it certainly hid the faces (& embarrassment) of people begging at Christmas, always a time of hardship for farm workers.
Then again at hiring fairs the fittest potential workers were the most vigorous dancers, and if they had been hired the year before and not covered themselves in glory, it was helpful to hide their identity. Add in the Morresque and you have 3 of my collected explanations. I am sure there are many more if you ask the right historian. Given 300/400 years of evolution - pick a year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 01:01 PM

Liv Ullman's ears aren't real?


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 12:24 PM

Yebbut when are we going to get real Klingons in Star Trek or proper Elves in LOTR?


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 12:15 PM

No, I'm not playing strawman, meself. I know about the ten (eleven, twelve) rubbish bad arguments. The only two I can usually remember the right terms for without looking the bloody things up are strawman & ad hominem.

I certainly don't wish to attack the arguer (if I gently chide Sandman (I hope I gently chide, Sandman! ;-) ), I've seen enough of his posting to think he might well have a chuckle & concede that that one could have been... phrased differently? ;-)

As for strawman, no. I am not either trying to distract or obscure. If you want to dig a little deeper, my logical debating point would be that the original was not a single argument. If you're going to argue that black actors & actresses should be able to portray traditionally "white" (or whatever) roles, you also have to consider the question of what happens with the casting of non-whatever in whatever roles (black, male, whatever).

I'm not meaning to set up a strawman; I'm saying "this is a facet of the gem of human experience that has not yet been considered / implied by the original question; consider it now alongside

If you see what I mean? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: meself
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 10:59 AM

Raewulf: you've slipped into a practice that's not unusual on the internet - setting up a strawman and become indignant about his supposed behaviour. "I won't accept any squawking about Chinese (or Inuit or White or Purple with Green Spots) playing beloved black icons." This "squawking" has not happened, AFAIK - why so eager to lay down the law about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 10:17 AM

Now, now, Raggy. Everyone's allowed the occasional Fox Par for the cou… Sorry, I mean, faux pas, aren't they? ;-)

It's a valid enough question , if not well worded. When we will we see a Chinese playing Martin Luther (even King), an Inuit playing... There surely must be prominent actors & actresses who are or have Native American / First Peoples' heritage (I claim no particular expertise, but having met one or two, my impression is they don't much mind what you call 'em, so long as you don't call 'em that!! Samndman, please note. ;-) )

What's more to the point is what will happen when someone is so cast. What annoys the crap out of me is not a black actress playing Anne Boleyn, it's... First, is this a decent non-liberty taking retelling of historical fact, or just a histrionic piece of "Oh, but this is just entertainment, dahlink!"? Second, if it's decently accurate, is the script actually any good, does it 'feel' right? I've never seen one, but I'm always a bit dubious about the notion of e.g. Bill, again, being "modernised" in scenery or language. Third, do I believe that characterisation? I'd rather watch Madame Black Actress play Anne Boleyn (or Good Queen Bess or whoever) convincingly, than watch Madame White Actress do it badly.

Which is what I'm getting at with the term "window-dressing". What does annoy the crap out of me, though, is hypocrisy, If You (the impersonal You!) wants to insist that a black actress can play Anne Boleyn, I won't accept any squawking about Chinese (or Inuit or White or Purple with Green Spots) playing beloved black icons. Etcetera.

Either you fight for equality on all sides, wherever something 'wrong' is brought to your attention, or you're just another bigot. Ismist* or anti-Ismist, you're just another bigot...

* For those of you who are curious (or downright peculiar ;-) ), yes Ism is a standalone word, not merely a suffix. It's been used as such since the mid-17thC. And another explanation for "blacking up" that I've run across is not coal miners, but soot. I know not why, but it used to be considered lucky to have a chimney sweep at a wedding (I don't whether he was 'lucky' at other functions!). No doubt the sweep would make sure he was liberally covered with soot to suit! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 08:22 AM

Eskimo, red indian abo / 21 century


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 07:54 AM

Eskimo ?

Red Indian ?

What century are you living in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 06:54 AM

so will we see a chinese person playing the role of martin luther king?
or an eskimo playing the part of malcolm x ?
or a red indian playing the role of robin hood?


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: meself
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 09:11 PM

OTOH, there was a TV docu-drama back in the '80s(?) - a UK production, I believe - based on Lech Walesa and the shipbuilders' strike in Gdansk - in which the workers spoke, in English, with working-class accents. It was refreshing - once you got over the shock.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 08:25 PM

Example of an inexcusable fuckup: I once saw an Edinburgh performance of Gerhard Hauptmann's "The Weavers", written in 1892 about a Silesian weavers' uprising in 1840. This should have had direct Scottish relevance - we had the Paisley weavers' revolt of 1820, which ended with the execution of Baird and Hardie - the last armed mass insurrection in British history. But the director (a personal acquaintance) didn't even seem to have heard of it, let alone made the connection. Instead we got actors with Gielgud accents playing characters whose position in society was the same as the Paisley weavers - whose descendants spoke in the same language and could have played the same roles far better.

(They also made no effort to research the music - Tannahill and Rodger's songs would have been fine, but instead they went for a recording of Bruckner's Ninth. Bruckner was a religiously obsessed conservative who would for sure have backed the bosses' militia).


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 03:49 PM

I always thought the black face traddy thing was to do with miners , being the spirit of the strength that comes from coal.

I seem to remember something in AL Lloyd's book about it.

Still I guess that's the trouble with an unwritten constitution - no one really knows the roots of anything.

The Black and White Minstrels were a pain in the arse - worse than Rolf Harris and the Younger Generation. I was glad when we had an excuse to get rid of the buggers.

I would have tipped them all the black spot and made 'em walk the plank.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 03:15 PM

The most popular / likely etymology for Morris is Moorish

And the most likely beginnings of Morris is the Morresque. Athletic dancers & accomplished tumblers giving performance to the rich. Dancers from the Middle East and maybe as far as India. You can just imagine (and scholars have) that the locals would want a bit of the same money earning jobs and would "brown-up" to look like the Morresque (sound familiar?). And incorporated into the routines would be local fare. As with all high fashion, with time it moves down the price ladder and acquires subtle changes on the way. Like its name.

cf the appelation "Designer" - meaningless now us oiks have got hold of it.

Told to me by an historian - so argue with him, not me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Raedwulf
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 12:48 PM

The bit that puzzles me these days (never having been more than a very, very occasional theatregoer & never having seen Shakespeare in the flesh (as it were)), is what happens these days if a white actor is cast as e.g. Othello?

Now once upon a time, of course, it was always white actors playing the parts of other races, because the other races didn't have visible actors (if they had actors at all). Not only that, but the white actor would "brown up". And I do mean "brown up"; I'm not so much thinking of white actors playing Othello here, but of Bernard Bresslaw playing Bungdit Din in Carry On Up The Khyber. ;-)

I'm not going to make an argument here; just a point. The Black & White Minstrels, that older UK 'catters will remember, ran as late as 1978. I was young (as well as younger!), but whilst I don't remember a great deal about them, they never struck as being unkindly meant. Looking back from now (or even 20-30 years ago), racist stereotype? Yep. Ultimately, based on unkind mockery? Yep.

But at the same time, you can make a decent argument that Morris sides who black up are engaging in tribute, not mockery. The most popular / likely etymology for Morris is Moorish & we're back to Othello. I've always understood that Bill intended Othello to be seen not merely as dusky or Arab, but as black Moorish. Again, I stress I'm not offering a point-of-view of my own here. You can agree or disagree with the "Morris" argument as you please. I'm not a Morrisman, it's no odds to me; I'm simply pointing out that the argument exists & it seems to have some validity to me.

So what happens when a white actor gets cast as Othello nowadays? I'm assuming that he (or she!) simply plays the part without blacking up. But that also seems weird if Bill really did envision him as (the old word) a 'blackamoor'.

Ultimately, whilst my lip might curl a little at "agendaism" (whether you're an Ismist or an Anti-ismist, you're agendaist; you're not fighting for equality as you should be, your fighting for "your" side), I do wonder why, with things like this, folk can't just watch the performance & judge it on its merits without fussing about the window-dressing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: meself
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 11:24 AM

I get uncomfortable when I watch a Western and all the cowboys are White, and not one of them speaks with a French-Canadian accent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 05:07 AM

Yes undeserved attention really. I didn't stick with it to the end, and I'm a bit of a Tudor nut since reading Wolf Hall. I get to Hampton Court and the Tower when I can.

I can see why Henry got shut of her - better than I could see him giving Nathalie Dormer the chop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 04:29 AM

I know very little about the latest Anne Boleyn series, however I do realise that portraying Anne Boleyn with a black actress has garnered a great deal of publicity for the programme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 03:33 AM

No you're not, Dick. I can rite more betterer than you kan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 02:09 AM

and men don't get to play Lady MacBeth or Eliza Doolittle.

Weeeeeeeeeeeell............. In Shakespeare's day, actoresses were few and far between, so yes - men of a certain stature (yes I am being heightist), certainly did play against type. Hence all that cross dressing in "Much ado about two gentlemen of Elsinor at midnight**" etc.

**other plays written by Shakespeare (discuss) are available


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 01:39 AM

Colour blind casting, whatever the artistic merits,
is worth it just for triggering the
"I'm not racist, but.." brigade.

Despite their claims not to be racist,
they do have an unhealthy obsession with race...???

So anything that provokes them into outing themselves in public, that helps identify them, is surely a good thing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 01:23 AM

Dave the Gnome,i believe i am superior to you, but not because you watch the box.
I know I am superior to you


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: vectis
Date: 02 Jun 21 - 12:55 AM

I got uncomfortable watching Bridgerton because it was so very historically inaccurate to see so many non-white faces amongst the gentry. It was explained in the series and it was a decent story but it still looked so wrong from a historical point of view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 04:22 PM

Dick. Just because you don't like TV doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with it. You seem to be implying that you are somehow superior to us plebs that enjoy the magic box. You aren't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 04:14 PM

of course rqding a book and listening to the wireless is passive consumerism too but it uses ones imagination, which television does not


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 04:05 PM

i dont care if ann boleyn is green yellow blue or purple. i have better things to do... for example reading books and playing music
than sitting in front of the goggle box.. but each to their own


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 03:53 PM

I have just read that C5 have dropped "Our Yorkshire Farm" in favour of Boleyn.

Sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 02:51 PM

Changing your mind can be an elevating experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Black Anne Boleyn
From: meself
Date: 01 Jun 21 - 01:02 PM

Just glancing through the thread again, I suppose I should withdraw my "'surprised' by the attitudes" comment .....


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