folk song art song

Subject: Folk song Art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:08 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01gg7dm BBCRadio4 extra

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:14 PM

An Opera singer can sing a folk song,and it is still a folk song as long as they do not sing it in an operatic way.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:34 PM

Tim Healy thinks kathleen ferrier version of" blow the wind southerly is ok" HILARIOUS.
Then logically its ok for a tradtional style singer, to sing opera in a trad style, trouble is Opera audiences are not that tolerant. so why should we tolerate Peter Pears murdering trad folk songs

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:38 PM

My God some very ignorant comments from some of the pseuds taking part

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 04:45 PM

Thanks for the heads up, Dick. I enjoyed listening.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 03 Jun 21 - 06:17 PM

Odetta Holmes and Rhiannon Giddens both trained in singing for opera (Rhiannon at a more advanced level than Odetta) but would sing folk songs like folk songs. Rhiannon Giddens is especially versatile and sings in various styles. So classical training doesn't necessarily prevent singers from performing in a more natural style if they choose to do so. Sandman also says that, but didn't give any examples.

One positive side of singing songs in an "unauthentic" style, whether it be art song or pop song, could be that some listeners will go search out the roots of the song and learn more about folk music.

I was thinking this week about folk song and art song, but in a different context than classical music. I had lyrics for a waulking song - a work song for fulling the tweed - and was looking for a recording. The first recordings I found sounded nothing like a waulking song. Would you think that track 19 on
https://archive.org/details/GaelicSongsOfScotland-WomenAtWorkInTheWesternIsles/ is the same song as Alasdair Caplin - Sheòl am bàta ?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 08:14 AM

I try not to be critical of other styles. Like everybody else I know what I like and I know what makes me cringe, but I wouldn't impose my views on anyone else or expect anyone else to have the same opinions. My pet hate is almost every singer in the commercial world adopting an American accent. BUT, that seems to be the norm and it's made an awful lot of people popular and rich. I'm definitely in a very small minority. I find it quite flattering that a trained opera singer would want to (and find a market for) singing our traditional songs.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Jun 21 - 06:56 PM

The Turkish folksinger Ruhi Su had a career path in some ways like Rhiannon Giddens. He started out with Western opera - he had a powerful baritone voice that should have got him an international career, but he was blacklisted by the Turkish government for being a Communist. Turkish art music was similarly state-regulated, and he seems never to have tried it, or anything related to it (there are popularized classical genres he could have worked in, but didn't).

Instead he went for the traditional bardic ("ozan") folk music most closely associated with the Alevi mystical/Sufi/secularist minority who have been the core of the Turkish left for the last century. He became a superb saz player and got the idiom spot on, though you can always hear the operatic-professional control in his voice. Musically this was a good choice of direction in that the modal system of Turkish folk is more similar to Western folk and art music than it is to the Ottoman art music that says "classical" to the Turks - it's mostly in the Dorian mode with none of the microtonal modulation the art music tradition goes in for.

One thing he didn't try was getting dialect right - he sings everything in the Istanbul dialect you'd hear on the news. (Not sure if Rhiannon Giddens makes much effort in that direction either?) The upshot is that his songs are great learning material for the standard language.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 08:47 AM

relevant discussion also at https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=169980 "What is 'folk' fiortura?"

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 10:37 AM

Folk songs and Art song and music are branches of the same tree. I think the argument is about style. Personally I don't mind Peter Pears vocals as much as the accompaniment, especially that by Julian Bream.
One of my pet hates is self indulgent over arrangement of folk songs, or any other musical medium for that matter. I loath 'Land of hope and Glory' for that same reason. Were there an acknowledgement by the Art music world, that the Traditional style of singing Folk songs is just as valid as Operatic vocalisation, I think we would not be so polarised. Meanwhile all pigs are fuelled up and ready to fly.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 10:44 AM

ok why trill your rs when singning if you dont do it normal speech, singers who cannot sing rs but only as double us are advisedto look carefully at lyrics . i remember a floor singer called orville who chose a song which mentioned his brother was in the tipperary ranks,which came out bwother in the tipewaway wanks

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Charmion
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 11:24 AM

Sandman, I speak English with a fairly strong eastern Canadian accent, in which the R sound is produced at the back of the mouth in a very in-your-face fashion. When singing, I often roll initial Rs on the tip of my tongue to ensure that the rest of the song does not vanish behind a noise appropriate only for Talk Like A Pirate Day.

I have an old tape recording of myself singing a Bach aria in German. That Carleton County snarl pops out of the text like a rake handle out of the grass. “Wachet auf! rrrrrruft uns die Stimme … “

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 12:25 PM

do what you like, if you are singing classical music it is probably stylistically acceptable, but as far as i an concerned and what i like ,its crap, peter pears is crap and britten is absolutely clueless. these opera singers and classical singers are the first to criticse untrained singers singing classical music .i am returning the compliment, peter pears sound alikes go away and listen to tradtional unaccompanied styles.and show some respect,
patronising twats, would they treat jazz styles singing in the same way

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 12:32 PM

Two wrongs don't make a right, Dick. Each to their own and you to your opinion. I doubt if the majority of art song singers are even aware that our music exists. It comes from a different place and has charms all of its own. The beauty of our music is it is accessible to anybody at any time.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 02:17 PM

Well if the majority of art song listeners bothered to research our music they might start learning about style, it is about respect for the material
ALL music is accessible to everyone if you want to sing opera you sing in an operatic style, etc, if you want to sing jazz sing jazz styles.AND SO ON

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 02:40 PM

i remember Yehudi Menuin trying to play ITM.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 03:18 PM

Another positive advantage of a trained singer singing a trad song in a non-trad arrangement is that with a little luck it comes out beautiful in its own right.

Mary O'Hara, Kenneth McKellar, or Sissel Kyrkjeb? (just for example) have not deprived the world of even one traditional song by
singing them in a formal way.

Many others have taken flak for being somewhere in between.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 04:10 PM

Another negative disadvantage of a trained singer singing a trad song in a non trad style is that it comes out hideous in its own right. Peter Pears.Mary O'Hara, Kenneth McKellar
all a matter of opinion

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 05:32 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0Ce7BaOBhA

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 06:04 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD9SBsv2yx4 this is the way to fecking do it

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 06:15 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dyUsXgL7ow anne briggs

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 06:23 PM

"A matter of opinion" like nearly everything else on this site.

But it's an objective fact that the singers I mentioned (or any that might be named, including Celtic Woman) haven't deprived us of a single traditional song or performance.

But they *have* brought enjoyment to millions who wouldn't think of listening for two minutes to most trad singers.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 07:33 PM

Dick you're behaving as if Art singers and music are a threat to the tradition in some way. Traditional folk songs are pretty robust, and will outlive us all. Yes there is a lot musical snobbery in music schools. Try asking Cohen from Grannies about suffering from that, but it really is not going to do any lasting damage to the songs, any more than some pretty awful attempts at singing Traditional songs in Folk Clubs that could not be further away from the art of the Traditional singer. Peter Pears was a great singer, just not a great folk singer. Nobody dies.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 07:37 PM

I really do like the sound of this rendition of U Stambolu na Bosforu (Istanbul on the Bosphorus)

It is an old song
I can't say I am crazy about the lyrics, but I do like this art song performance. It seems I have different tastes when it comes to eastern music.

lyrics and translation
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/u-stambolu-na-bosforu-istanbul-bosphorus.html

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Helen
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 08:12 PM

Thanks Felipa. That's beautiful.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 09:05 PM

Thanks for that. The singing style is quite like the way I could imagine my Bosnian pal here doing it - I'll ask.

Sevdalinka isn't really a folk genre. It's Ottoman art music turned into pub and theatre entertainment. Classical technique and feeling is just fine for it. Look up the singer Amira for another example, or people like Himzo Polovina back in its golden age (psychiatrist in his day job, pro singer by night).

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 09:17 PM

...and, notice that behind the fioriture, the core melody is "Dona Dona", more or less? Which is also a non-folk theatre song. There has to be a link somewhere.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 01:14 AM

Pears was great singer,yur oinion not mine a great technician yes, but in my opinion an awful singer, all opinion or taste, but technique is different and is not just a matter of opinion.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 01:45 AM

WoulD Pears have tried to sing Jazz?Ido not think he did. Then why does ho not show the same respect for tradtional music. No because he was a classical singer he thought he could sing everything, such arrogance REGARDLESS OF ACCEPTED STYLES what would he be like singing the blues, and as for Britten

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 02:04 AM

But it's an objective fact that the singers I mentioned (or any that might be named, including Celtic Woman) haven't deprived us of a single traditional song or performanc QUOTE
just because a performer has not deprived us of a performance, that is not always a plus. if i want to hear singing i want it to be perfomed well, and that is not just a matter of opinion. you seem to be putting forward an argument that tradtional song is better performed than not perfomed. I DO NOT AGREE.
I am not talking about style I do not want to hear any music[ including classical music jazz music traditional music, performed if it is going to be sung out of tune., so your argument is flawed.
Martin Carthy said that the only way you cam harm tradtional songs is by not singing them, absolute bollcks.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 02:11 AM

Does anyone ever say the only harm you can do a classical song or a jazz song is to not sing it? Britney Spears where are you

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 02:15 AM

florence foster jenkins murdring classical song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcs9yJjVecs

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 04:21 AM

Could you explain to me how a performance that is poor, or not to your taste or shows lack of respect, bridges musical mediums, is sung by an allegedly arrogant singer or is complete whatever, actually harms the tradition?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 05:25 AM

a performance that is poor harms the interpretation and perfomance of the song.
no one here SO FAR has said that it harms the tradition, what i am saying is that it harms my enjoyment and other peoples enjoyment, as does a poor performance of any music.
yes and i do maintain that classical performers who think they can sing tradtional   songs and that is it acceptable to sing them in a classical style are arrogant, they have not botherd to go to the roots of the music and absorb styles
I would accept it if a classical singer criticsed me for singing opera in a non opertic style.
I would accept criticism from a jazz singer if i sang a jazz song in the way i would sing a tradtional song.
I have noticed in the past on this forum people make derogatory remarks about finger in the ear singers and tradtional songs based upon poor perfomance.
So now I am going to say poor performance can damage any musical genre, albeit it in a temporary manner, but it can put some people off for a long time., so yes it[ POOR PERFOMANCE can harm any music
these are my last words on the matter, good day to you Mr Dow.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 05:38 AM

So no actual evidence then? Oh well, if we're not talking I'll go and enjoy the weather.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 11:34 AM

When I went to Folk clubs in the sixties and sevnties they were full, no one sang from crib sheets, floor singers generally were of a higher standard and bothered to make an effort to learn their words and attempted to maintain a certain standard of performance.
i have been questioned in the last two days about evidence to support the following statements
"So now I am going to say poor performance can damage any musical genre, albeit it in a temporary manner, but it can put some people off for a long time., so yes it[ POOR PERFOMANCE can harm any music"
"a performance that is poor harms the interpretation and perfomance of the song."
the evidence is clear to me, people are voting with their feet. relatively empty venues,PARTLY due to poor performance of floor singers who use crib sheets., who often have not practised with their crib sheets
I will make myself clear, I am not attempting to stop anyone from singing or performing, but i am pointing out evidence of how poor perfomance damages the music and its enjoyment., and puts off paying customers
Furthermore my experience has taught me that people are attracted to full venues but not third or half empty or if you like half full ones, that good floor singers avoid venues where the majority of singers have not practised, and that guest performers like to perform to full houses not to themselves.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:20 PM

I would rather have continued this conversation privately but since you said "i have no evidence" when there is plenty of evidence of poor perfomances putting off potential audience, you have in effect forced me to continue.
and if we have not got venues like folk clubs to perform in, we are forced to either sing in pubs[ where people go primarily for alcohol], or sing to a few friends at home or to a dog.
and here i will quote Jim Carroll,an irish tradtional singer who he collected from said "I am so glad you came along i thought the songs would die out, or i might have to teach the dog the songs."

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:30 PM

"I am so glad you came along; I thought the songs would die out," could be an argument in favour of the art song performances of folk songs. At least someone is singing them.

Mary O'Hara's style of singing isn't my favourite, but I learned a lot of songs from her. (and I do think in some ways, timing and phrasing, she stays true to the origin of her repertoire)

Margaret Kennedy Fraser made parlour room arrangements of Gaelic songs collected in Scotland, but she also published the Gaelic texts of the songs and so produced a useful resource.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 12:30 PM

to quote Jim Carroll. coorectly the singer was Martin Reidy"He once said to us, "You know, I was delighted when you people started it come up and take my songs; I was so worried they were going to disappear that I tried to teach the dog to sing them"

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 01:53 PM

Felipa, if that is what you want fine
what i want and what i hear in ireland is a style of singing he term "sean-nós" is popularly applied to songs in English and Irish, with the style of singing that is characteristic. this is similar to the unaccompanied styles of england scotland and phil tanner of wales that is what i want, there are still plenty of people singning like that now visit cork singers club and thereare still people in the uk folk revival singning in sean nos style, we do not need peter pears

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 03:01 PM

And there have always been traditional singers all over the British Isles who DIDN'T use anything like sean nos style. Slapping it all over everything like mustard on a hot dog doesn't do anything for the tradition.

Pears did best on material Britten wrote for him. His versions of the Church Parables are unbeatable.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 03:25 PM

jack perhapsyou would be good enough to give examples of singers who did not use anything like sean nos style ,come on jack.none of them sounded like peter pears.. did they jack the style for nearly all the british isles was unaccompanied and not like PETER PEARS
I am talking about Brittens abomination of an accompaniment on waly waly

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 04:41 PM

I got Marjory Kennedy Fraser's first name wrong.

And why on earth does Sandman think that these parlour arrangements are what I personally want. I was just responding to the issue of preserving and passing on songs. And my examples were not entirely contemporary. M.K.F. was active in the first quarter of the 20th c. Mary O'Hara (b.1935) had a comeback in the late 1970s-1990s, but she was an important singer before the folk boom and -in terms of promoting and disseminating songs - probably bridged the gap between a time when house ceilidhs were common and the growth of singers' circles.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 21 - 04:49 PM

jACK , the point i was trying to make was that all unaccompanied solo singers used to some extent some degree of ornamentation some very little some quite a lot , but very very few singers was other than solo unaccompanied, but none that i can remember sounded like opera singers or peter pears.
Felipa glad to here, my apologies for misunderstanding

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 02:47 AM

if you believe, as i do, that listening to the roots of the music and absorbing styles is important in formimg ones own style, be it singing or instrumental music, then my criticisms of the style of Peter Pears singing Waly Waly for example, wouldbe that is over stated over and dramatic,because his roots are closer to the operatic style.
it is not just about stylistic use of ornamentation in the music
in Art music is stipulated and written down whether you should use a mordant or a trilll or something else, that is not the case in solo unaccompanied singing of tradtional music

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Planetluvver
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 05:24 AM

I attended a student recital which included Vaughn Williams The Roadside Fire. (Perhaps the entire song cycle was sung, I don't recall) The singer looked extremely uncomfortable and formal in his suit, starched white shirt and tie. I just could not believe he was going to convince his love to go tramping through the woods by singing about getting rained on and doing laundry.

The notion just seemed preposterous in that setting. The singer's formal appearance was so incongruous with the songs subject. I had the impression he was somewhat insane.

I offended the person I accompanied by stating my opinion. The subject just didn't seem in keeping with the formality of the venue. To be honest, I have not had a lot of exposure to "Art Songs."


I have listened to quite a bit of opera, but most of it has been in English, and what has been in English, I have still needed subtitles to understand. And often, the portrayals are of insanity, so yeah, opera works for me.

Lyrics:

I will make you brooches and toys for your delight
Of bird-song at morning and star-shine at night,
I will make a palace fit for you and me
Of green days in forests, and blue days at sea.

I will make my kitchen, and you shall keep your room,
Where white flows the river and bright blows the broom;
And you shall wash your linen and keep your body white
In rainfall at morning and dewfall at night.

And this shall be for music when no one else is near,
The fine song for singing, the rare song to hear!
That only I remember, that only you admire,
Of the broad road that stretches and the roadside fire.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 07:35 AM

planet luvver i am glad you enjoy opera, but that is not my point.99per cent opera lovers would not enjoy it if i turned up and did opera in rock and roll style or folk style,or jazz style

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 11:11 AM

I hate it when folk songs are sung in a formal style. Unfortunately the formal style can also actually be the folk style e.g. at Welsh esteidfodds, songs are judged by their adherence to specific traditional form This is almost as naueseous as the opera style.

Songs should be sung for enjoyment primarily, and as naturally as possible. There should be no such thing as competitive singing or competitive playing or competitive dancing. Unfortunately there is.

There is no need to listen to folk music being murdered when there is so much interesting material around. Just do not listen to the stuff you dont like.

Let people do what they want and listen to what they want. I challenge anyone to sing I'll Tell Me Ma in an operatic fashion anyway, or The Rattling Bog, hee hee

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jun 21 - 08:31 PM

This is rather like the guy who was so shocked by his neighbour appearing naked at her window that he fell off the stepladder and broke his binoculars.

Classical-style folksong treatments are a thing of the past. They served a purpose, of freeing up a space for other takes on traditional material, but if you want to hear Peter Pears, Fyodor Shalyapin, Kathleen Ferrier, Peter Dawson, John McCormack or the like, you have to put in some effort to find them. They're not on the PA at the supermarket.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 02:31 AM

Nor are Harry Cox or Pop Maynard. Since the BBC have recently produced a programme with a young operatic singer posing the questions, I would say it's a fairly current phenomenon. Just not actually all that important to the continuation (or not) of Folk culture in the UK, and not worth falling off a stepladder in despair.