folk song art song

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM

putting clips on here as i have done,of styles unrelated t0 peter pears, but connected to the roots of uk and irish trad music is imo important so that more people become aware of the stylistic roots.
that is being positive.
it has become evident to me that the uk folk revival is getting further from its roots,, it is also important to me that practising material to try and do it justice is important, no one is falling off stepladders,
   folk culture may continue but when it starts to bear little relation to its stylistic roots, is it still folk culture?, in peter pears case it is art music not folk culture.
to hear what you have collected being murdered by singers who either have no idea of style or have not practised, would that be acceptable in classical music. NO it would not, so why is it accptable for folk music, does not folk music deserve the same respect as classical music?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:58 AM

So to be clear, you are on a sort of self appointed rear guard action, confined to occasional threads on Mudcat?
If you feel so strongly, why do you not expand the argument to a wider audience? Write a book and get it published. If I can do it (three times) I'm sure you can. Get yourself on the Radio. One of my documentaries were the way I joined the BBC (God help me!). If that fails start your own podcast. If you believe so passionately then spread the word. I will be first in the queue to listen or read, and I dare say there will be many others as well.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 05:15 AM

Sorry, I'm back very briefly. I really think the decay in respect for Traditional song and dance in the UK is a worthwhile subject for a book. The subject of this thread would be the part of one chapter. It's a dragon of a subject, but I think a new perspective is overdue. I would not attempt it for the foreseeable. Go on on Dick, seriously! Sharpen your pencil. It would be a more academic update on Fred Woods 'Folk Revival' book. Blandford ISBN 0 7137 0993 6

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 11:02 AM

I   hope to keep on singing and playing music, and hopefully organising a festival., those are my only intentions,I have recntly recovered from a TIA.
I consider it impertinent patronising and condescending to suggest to anyone else that they should do anything other, than what they have proven to be reasonably competent at.
perhaps you should become a trapeze artist.
I do not consider myself anything but a member of this forum who wishes to discuss aspects of folk music on this forum.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 12:09 PM

So to be clear, you are on a sort of self appointed rear guard action, confined to occasional threads on Mudcat? quote, Nick Dow .
if you were to say this to my face, I could not guarantee your future as Trapeze Artist

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 12:38 PM

I was actually trying to be supportive, and encouraging Dick. I was attempting to suggest something that you might seriously consider, and that you might have the ability to achieve. Not be condescending or patronising. Your diatribe was well out of order. That's your lot with me I'm afraid, permanently.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 02:00 PM

A peculiar way of offering support and encourageent
So to be clear, you are on a sort of self appointed rear guard action, confined to occasional threads on Mudcat? quote, Nick Dow .

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Planetluvver
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:40 PM

Reply to The Sandman,

I wasn't responding to your post. (Is there a way to reply to particular posts in this forum? It seems to me things are just ordered chronologically.) I was just working through my own views on folk versus art song. My thoughts tend to be rather chaotic, hence perhaps also my post.

My discussion of opera was to support that it isn't just that I am adverse to formality. It is DESPITE my appreciation of opera, I found the Vaughn Williams song incongruous and preposterous to he point that I was so preoccupied that I couldn't actually listen, DESPITE my familiarity of opera. (Besides, my understanding is that it was actually an art song, not a folk song, so I cannot criticize it on the basis of being divorced from its tradition.)

I do often want to know the background of a song. I cannot say that I find it a requirement to my enjoyment of a song. (In fact, I am distressed at my newly acquired knowledge regarding the origins of Danny Boy and other familiar "Irish" songs.) I also am interested in music I am unfamiliar with to broaden my knowledge.

In conclusion, I would suppose ALL music has roots in the vernacular. My theory (with absolutely no background to support it) is that music preceded language and functioned as a social "glue." When we started pounding on logs rather than one another's heads, we could develop cooperation and culture.

And once again, I find myself trying to order the jumble of thoughts that coexist in my chaotic mind. High time I accomplished something useful!

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 04:42 PM

Nick Dow, is a very good singer of traditional songs and a very good guitarist, some while ago I bought one of his books which was very informative

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 15 Jun 21 - 05:23 PM

What does the term 'art song' even mean. Art is not constrained. A song is a song. Reproduction of historical styles has some interest, but why study past songs when you can just sing and make up your own songs to your own styles and rhythmns.

Today I sang to my neighbours cat as it shaded in my garden, it is so frightened of hands because it gets mishandled by the children in the house in which it lodges. So I cannot even pet it without it having an anxiety attack.

I tried to soothe it with a quiet song that went along the lines of ," sorry cat, you're safe here, you are welcome and I will not mistreat you" The tune was whatever it happened to be at the time, it is not written down, archived, reproducable - it was just as it was then. Lost and gone forever.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 04:22 AM

Art song is a genre. It includes works by Monteverdi, Dowland, Purcell, Haydn, Schubert, Wolf, Schoenberg, Messiaen, Tippett, Kurtag... it's not defined by any technical feature but by being part of that tradition.

I might be more inclined to think someone had something to say about it if they could spell composers' names right and drop the bigoted crud about performers' dress code.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 05:56 AM

The folk & traditional singers & musicians I repect don't give a monkey's about 'genre' and suchlike pigeonholes--they just get on with it and leave the history, sources and cross-references to the academics, and that's as it should be.
We've covered this ground before, I know I'm iin a minority, but to me a song is a song & if it appeals to me, I'll sing it- simple maybe but I stand by it.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 10:34 AM

After reading this thread, I think I will give up singing, it is far to fraught. There is no chance I will attend any performances in case they are incorrect. If I catch any of my friends singing then I will cut them off.

Thanks to this thread, it has put me on the right path and it has saved me from the toxic effects of singing forever. Free at last.

My final act will be to make sure that pesky Natural Voice Practictioners network is shut-down. Who do they think they are, wearing casual clothing and singing for fun while providing a social support network. It makes me sick.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 16 Jun 21 - 05:54 PM

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/the-romantic-national-song-network-tickets-146804749959

The Romantic National Song Network Mon, 28 June 2021 18:00 – 19:00 BST

The Romantic National Song Network, funded by the Royal Society of Edinburgh, ran between 2017 and 2019. Bringing together scholars working in literature and language, musicology, history, book history, and performance history, it aimed to establish what songs were published and performed in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales during the period 1750 to 1850, and to explore how they shaped public perceptions of the different national cultures of the British Isles.

The project ultimately created an interactive website featuring a number of key song-stories and brought together a group of young singers from across the UK in a final project performance. This presentation by Professor Kirsteen McCue will talk through the formation of the network; showcasing its findings and reflecting on how projects like this can breathe life into historical song repertoire.

Speaker: Professor Kirsteen McCue (University of Glasgow)

Kirsteen McCue is Professor of Scottish Literature and Song Culture and Co -Director of the Centre for Robert Burns Studies at the University of Glasgow. She has published widely on Romantic song culture relating to work by Byron, Clare and Scott and on Burns’s songs and musical responses to Burns’s work. She is editor of James Hogg’s Songs by the Ettrick Shepherd and Hogg’s Contributions to Musical Collections and Miscellaneous Songs for the Collected Works of James Hogg (Edinburgh University Press, 2014) and her edition of Robert Burns's Songs for George Thomson, vol 4 of the new Oxford Works of Robert Burns, was published in February 2021.

The Romantic National Song Network: https://rnsn.glasgow.ac.uk/

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 01:54 AM

Thanks. Interesting ideas and more significant than some folkies would like to think.

Next elephant in the room: hymnody, which had more impact on both art music and traditional music than most people involved in either generally recognize.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:12 AM

what are those ideas,Jack?did you mean this
‘the most widespread and influential form of literary and musical expression of the day’ (2017: 1).

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:28 AM

hymnody, the only influence... i see is the copper family ,and they were exceptions, most, the vast majority of tradtional singers were unaccompanied solo.
glee singing was popular in victorian times and songs like thousands or more, originate from them probably. Folk song collectors apart from alfred wiliams did not consider glee songs, folk songs.
so folk songs   aka TRAD SONGS, as we consider them today are the result of the agenda of collectors like Sharp and Baring Gould

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 03:38 PM

I am gobsmacked at the apparent vendetta on Peter Pears, and to a lesser extent, Benjamin Britten: if you don't like it, Sandman, you don't have to listen to it! PP has been dead for 35 years and BB 10 years longer. They used to fill concert halls with people who liked their music! Having been brought up in Suffolk, where they lived, we did get to sing and play some of their music, including taking part in the Aldeburgh Festival: inspiring! To be fair, I didn't like BB's music on first hearing, but it grew on me: it wasn't the easiest to sing.
PP had a very wide repertoire, of which folksong was only a very small part. I hate the term "murdering" songs: he just did them his way: again I say, switch off if you don't like it! I seriously don't think it does any harm at all to the traditional genre or way of singing such songs, which WILL survive as there are plenty of people who prefer their songs sung that way. Some of the best folk songs have been thoroughly messed up by so-called folk singers who chop up the words with funky rhythms: (not talking about Nick Dow here, if he hasn't yet left the thread!)
I have lived in Scotland, the country of my birth, for the last 35 years, and to some extent, we see the same phenomenon around Burns' songs: some people insisting they must be sung in a folkie style - others who sing them operatically. Does anyone know what they actually sounded like when they were first sung in the 18th century? It's before any recordings. Again, horses for courses, it's all valid, and a matter of personal taste which way you prefer them.
And Sandman, if you've already had one TIA, maybe calm down a bit, to avert any chance of another?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 04:22 PM

you are of course entitled to your opinion.
I am very calm, but may i return your statement...maybe calm down a bit.
i am not insisting on anything, i pointed out that if i were to sing opera in a non operatic style, opera lovers would not like it, it is quite reasonable then to ask classical singers to listen to tradtional, styles and sing it in a way that is connected to its roots, that is not insisting but asking.
the same applies to yehudi menhuin , a very good classical trained violin player whose attempts to play irish trad music were musically imappropriate, however yehudi was humble enough to acknowledge his limtations when it came to playing a different genre, and to acknowledge that however good he was at his genre, he was out of his depth when it came to playing irish trad tunes.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 04:50 PM

Sir, - Another connection between the late lamented Yehudi Menuhin and music-making in this country was recalled to me recently and may also be of interest to your readers. The occasion was a request to him by Mr Vincent Strunks, an organiser of classes in traditional music in Derry, for a comment on the practice of some tutors in the Western Education and Library Board's schools music service, with the tacit support of the then director, of actively discouraging children learning music in school from also attending traditional music classes.

The comment was swift in coming, strong and to the point: "I find it unbelievable and totally unacceptable and typically bureaucratic that any child should be prohibited from following both traditional and classical teaching together. The parents are absolutely right, if they are compelled in this way to make a choice, to stay with traditional music. Traditional music is the basis of all music, and a child must begin with that.

"When I think of the incredibly rich, beautiful and heart-warming traditional music of Ireland, this attitude is enough to enrage any real music lover, but then any teacher who forces a child in this manner is probably in any case not a good music teacher, thus a double reason for the young girl to stay with traditional music. - Yours sincerely, Yehudi Menuhin."

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Felipa
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:15 PM

That's a good story re Vincent Strunks and "Hudi McMenamin" (it's a local joke about how Menuhin was introduced at a traditional music session). I've met some children at Comhaltas (C.C.E.) and other trad. music classes in Derry who also have classical music lessons at school, so I think the campaign to change attitudes and policies has been successful. Most of the children attending the classes are not going to enter compettions; they are encouraged to play in informatl sessions organised by the course organisers.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:19 PM

Been enjoying some lieder and art song during the Song Prize Final of Cardiff Singer of the World (BBC4) tonight. E.g., a Welsh lady singing a trad Welsh song, with embellished melody from the pianist.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 06:39 PM

FWIW, Pierre Boulez and Michael Tippett (neither of them what you'd think of as emissaries of folk culture) co-signed a letter protesting the British Government's attempt at the same kind of control freakery. I think they got results.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 07:02 PM

Can ppl not just sing for fun anymore ?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 17 Jun 21 - 09:32 PM

My first encounter with the Gaelic sean-nos about
the three Marys at the foot of the cross on Calvary,
was a recording with voice and piano, featuring
a young Maire ni Scolai,
using fully operatic classical singing technique.

My second encounter with this same song
was a recording of Joe Heaney.

I would not do without either one of them.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 03:59 AM

people do sing for fun, some get fun out of advancing their skills, few get fun out of performing badly or singing out of tune.
ITM fiddle playing is an example where classical musicians frequently do not get the styles, many of them think the music should be played as written from the page, they do not understand the totally different bowing styleS from classical music, they have good tecHnique but actually need to spend a little time listening to the different approach. and different styles
IF THEY DO NOT LISTEN AND WATCH THE DIFFERENT BOWING TECHNIQUES that is an example of their arrogance
it is a very good example of the difference between art music and folk music or classical music and ITM.
Keboeroxu , i enjoy classical music too, that is not the point at all, their is nothing wrong with having good technique ,technique is only there to help the performer do what he wants to do.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:09 AM

Iwill amend my previous post, it is sometimes arrogance and sometimes ignorance and sometimes both, that a musician thinks ITM bowing styles are exactly the same as classical music they are not, neither are tradtional singing styles the same as operatic styles or jazz styles, good technique however is useful in all music but good technique is not about over the top vibrato , rolling of rs, these are styles

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:12 AM

good technique as regards singing is about breath control,singing from the diaphragm, clear diction.
technique and style are different things entirely

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:56 AM

Thank you jiggers, yes it appears singing for fun is no more.

I used to teach English literature in another life & needed to read & analyse excellent books like 'To Kill a Mockingbird' and 'Goodbye To All That'- - at that time, this was aimed at exams of course, and found little time or inclination to read much else.
Having left teaching - 43 years ago now, I re-read many of the same books without the pressure- reading had ceased to be a chore, and became very enjoyable.
Mudcat is great for folk who wish to discuss & argue about traditional music, but it doesn't seem like much fun?

It's quite valid to discuss voice exercises, ballad-sheet origins etc, but I'd argue that in a live context, open-mindedness and a bias towards humour are essential in communicating with the FOLK, which is surely the aim of the music?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:09 AM

nothing wrong with your approach Jim, but there are many ways of presenting a perfomance, i have just been listening to an online Martin Carthy concert, no humour , but still excellent, excellent guitar playing excellent presentation, excellent communication and intersting story songs.
singing for fun is very much why i do it Jim, i chose this genre rather than pop music, not for one minute thinking i would do it to make money but because it was FUN. AND I ENJOYED THE MUSIC
FUN is also about striving to perform as well as you can that is part of communication
FUN is not about turning up with a guitar that is out of tune and NOT bothering to tune it, OR RUMMAGING THROUGH A FOLDER OF BITS OF PAPER,singing out of tune playing an out of tune guitar.
you are a good perfomer Jim, but would you enjoy playing your box if it was out of tune or if there were a couple of notes that did not sound when you pressed them or if you [for health reasons] could no longer sing in tune.
bad perfomances are not fun for anyone unless you are masochists

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,Jiggers
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:10 AM

My friend cannot play tin whistle properly, sings badly most of the time, annoys people with her pibgorn at sessions, and loves every minute of it. It provides her with a chance to perform, a social network - she gets out of the house for an evening.

she brings more than her 'music' to sessions because she has a passion for the history of music, and for instruments.

Given that she has had a mini-stroke some years back, it is a relief that she can still ruin a good tune.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:24 AM

I practise because to me it is not practising but enjoyment of playing because i want to try to do a good job, and i am happy with the sound i produce[ some of the t .
Jiggers , would you turn up at a classical music perfomance, pay money or[ if free] expect the whole orchestra to be out of tune and out of time, would you turn up at a folk concert and expect a folk perfomer lets say peggy seeger or leon rosselson or show of hands to play out of time with each other and be out of tune all night? no you would not.
your friend might get enjoyment but there are undoubtedly people who stay away because of her and she annoys people with her pig horn, so is she more important than other people?
i remember a bombard player in the north east of the uk who emptied rooms quicker than greased lightning with his bombard and hurdy gurdy that was badly played,
are you a masochist do you enjoy musical and intellectual flagellation, if that is your idea of fun, enjoy it, but do not inflict it on other people without asking .

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:42 AM

I am wrong , i have seen the light and the error of my ways it is ok to perfom folk music or tradtional music badly but not art music. we must all have fun at everyone elses expense play out of tune. that mreans folk music is inferior to other genres of music ok.
next time i go to the opera or to a classical music concert i shall insist on asking for my money back unless they perfomm out of tune out of time, i will say but it was not fun, i want my money back the opera singer was not a stand up comedian ,he did not make me laugh, he tried to perform well he had been practising the lead violinist did not play enough bum notes, she did not do a belly dance

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:45 AM

Dick, I'm well aware we have different approaches to the same music-nowt wrong with that...

I have no time for Zooom/online folk- it seems a contradiction in terms to me! Martin Carthy is a lovely bloke and a well informed singer- not to my taste which is my opinion.
However, you know very well that his live performances certainly include humour, whereas you say the online one did not? A natural reaction to there being no FOLK involvment, ie singing at a camera!   for me, QED

Such singers as you mention would not last a minute in a public bar, never mind a folk club, so let the market decide that- never thought I'd ever find myself quoting Maggie Thatcher!

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:57 AM

Jim...Martin Carthy has lasted longer than you and i in folk clubs. Martin Carthy has folk involvement perhaps you should listen to the clip before pre judging
since when has been playing in a public bar been the only criteria of good perfomance or perfomance of folk music.
i might remind you that before folk music was played in public bars in ireland it was played in rambling houses.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:44 AM

dont misundertsatnd me jim,none of this is a criticism of you as a performer

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:55 AM

i suppose you are right, classical musicians would not last ten minutes in a public bar ,most people have gone there to drink alcohol, generally a lot of roaring, scoving, acting the goat, fools playing pool,

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 07:24 AM

I would use humour myself , but i have seen other very good performers be succesful and communicate well with audiences , roy harris, martin carthy, nic jones, all spring to mind.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 07:52 AM

Trad song to art song is a very old tradition in itself of course, going back centuries in England, e.g.

For what it's worth, I introduce the tune with tenor recorder, then either sing unaccompanied or double the melody with keys but, as above, I also enjoy hearing those classically trained adding embellishment and a different style that Sandman mentions.

As for "fiddle playing", most folkies nowadays are playing the Italian fiddle/violin but there are many different fiddles from many different nations.

And going back to the books I had to analyse at school, in order to pass exams, could be fun, as JB suggests...

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 01:07 PM

WAV   how are things across the water

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 01:29 PM

Dick, Martin is a good bloke, none better, and he's VERY well informed and I certainly would make NO ctiticism of him or his music, except that it's not really my preference in music- Hope that's clear!

Yes rambling houses WERE the venue for music in the past & sorry I never experienced them. Good folk like Gene Sheerin in Tullaghan, Co Leitrim and Joe Corscadden in Tubbercurry are trying to revive such gatherings. The Brown Bread and Jam club run by Joe is an amazing night!

However, pubs are the main venue these days (pre-covid) and folk clubs are thin on the ground in Ireland, so the pub crowd is who you need to convince about the music- not easy, but its the real world.....

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 01:30 PM

Cloudy here in Manchester, Sandman; took a half flexi day off and have been watching the Queens tennis on the BBC, after it cleared up in London; also just catching up on a bit of housework; as has become my wont this year, will try and read a another poem and practise another song later today...how about yourself?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 02:46 PM

Jim, no one has suggested that you criticised Martin.
Jim you know I play in the uk as well as ireland. i have found when busking in ireland that singing tradtional songs.. they are well received.
   last november, i was busking in Bantry on a tuesday, and in an hour i collected 100 euros singing and playing trad,
so as far as i am concerned pubs are not the only venues in ireland, busking is the most honest form of performing it suits me to sing trad and its lucrative
so the pub crowd is NOTJUST who i need to convince about the music-, but its the real world.....
oh and i still live in ireland unlike you, and still get booked in pubs singing trad and playing trad,
YOU SEE there are more than one way of getting pub audiences on your side, your way works so does mine OK

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 03:48 PM

Good to hear you have done well busking with trad music, Sandman; you've probably heard it said that most people like folk music - when they do get the chance to hear it.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 04:36 PM

no pubs open here for music and god knows when it will be.
Jim, is a very good pub performer, butpubs are closing fast in ireland even before covid

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 05:47 PM

Just to be clear: Jim is a very engaging and entertaining performer, whether at clubs, festivals or in pubs. I guess you didn’t mean it that way, Sandman, but sometimes the term “pub performer” is used in a less complimentary sense, as if to say the person or group concerned is not up to doing folk club gigs or concerts. We had Jim for one of concerts in Edinburgh some years back, and he was excellent, with a great knowledge of the Durham mining songs tradition (the theme of the whole concert was songs about mining.)

And on another subject, re crossing the genres: one song that springs to mind is “Summertime “ from Gershwin’s “Porgy and Bess”: now you say you wouldn’t sing anything operatic in a folk club, and in its original form it is sung by a very high operatic soprano. But it does get sung often enough in folk sessions, usually by low husky-voiced altos, in a more folkie style. And it does seem to make the cross-over quite well.

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:34 PM

listen, i have booked Jim several times at my festival and been booked to run sessions with him at festivals , he was a neighbour of mine here in ireland and we got on fine and played together on occasions.
i once did a split booking with him in England
jim brought the subject of pub perfomance in to this discussion here, quote jim bainbriodge
"Such singers as you mention would not last a minute in a public bar, never mind a folk club, so let the market decide that- never thought I'd ever find myself quoting Maggie Thatcher."
quote tattie bogle
And on another subject, re crossing the genres: one song that springs to mind is “Summertime “ from Gershwin’s “Porgy and Bess”: now you say you wouldn’t sing anything operatic in a folk club, and in its original form it is sung by a very high operatic soprano. But it does get sung often enough in folk sessions, usually by low husky-voiced altos, in a more folkie style. And it does seem to make the cross-over quite well
Tattie, i was clearly referring to OPERATIC STYLE. stop twisting my words,
BUT i have never sung summertime because i do not like it LIKEWISE I have never sung Lord Randall because i do not like it
...Where did i say i would not sing anything operatic in a folk club
this is what i said
"i am not insisting on anything, i pointed out that if i were to sing opera in a non operatic style, opera lovers would not like it,"
i did not mention folk clubs.
i thought my meaning was quite clear i meant singing opera in a non operatic style to a gathering of opera lovers
no mention of doing so in folk clubs, PLEASE STOP MISQUOTING ME

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:50 PM

Tattie Bogle, quote
but sometimes the term “pub performer” is used in a less complimentary sense, as if to say the person or group concerned is not up to doing folk club gigs or concerts

Quite clear then if you had read post
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 06:44 AM
dont misundertsatnd me jim,none of this is a criticism of you as a performer.
that there was no criticism,
so i suggest you read posts properly

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jun 21 - 07:44 PM

classical musicians would not last ten minutes in a public bar ,most people have gone there to drink alcohol, generally a lot of roaring, scoving, acting the goat, fools playing pool,

I've heard the cellist Matthew Barley "last" about an hour and a half playing mostly-contemporary music in a pub. But it was to an audience that knew how to pay attention. Not the first time I'd heard art music performers doing that sort of gig.

Is there any point at all in playing any kind of music to a roomful of shouty drunks who don't want to listen?

Subject: RE: folk song art song
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 02:35 AM

Definition and Categorization of Folk Music
Posted byadmin        
December 22, 2012        

shapeimage_5Annabelle Brault

Music Therapy Students, University of Windsor

Annabelle Brault is a second year music therapy student at the University of Windsor. Born and raised in Quebec, she attended high school and Cégep in French educational institutions where multicultural and community involvement were predominant. Accordingly, she participated in a cultural immersion program in West Africa for a three month period, which was part of the social sciences program of the Cégep Marie- Victorin. At the completion of her DEC, Annabelle returned to West Africa and conducted her own humanitarian project in a center for disabled children. Her work as a French monitor and promotion agent of bilingual Canadian culture in a small community in the Canadian Northwest Territories motivated her to begin training in music therapy.

Contact: [e-mail]

Download: Article (pdf)
Definition and Categorization of Folk Music

In his work A folk song history of America, Forcucci (1984) describes folk songs as “the songs of the people” (p.16). Those songs are creations of one or more individuals, and the creative process can be collective, individual, or a mixture of both. It is the use of human expression in order to describe one’s way of life (Forcucci, 1984). Because the purpose of folk song is to describe human experiences, it is not surprising that a variety of folk songs exist. Perhaps there is no consensus on how folk songs should be categorized among cultures, but below are some examples of different types of folk songs including: work songs, love songs, drinking songs, cradle songs, play songs, and songs of mourning, etcetera. Respectively, Poston and Arma (1972) in The Faber book of French folk songs organized the folk repertoire according to the categories shown in the following table.

The way folk songs are created or categorized varies, but the way they are transmitted is almost always the same: it is “passed on from person to person, group to group, generation to generation” (Forcucci, 1984, p.16). How folksongs are transmitted directly impacts the songs themselves: Because folk songs are orally transmitted, they are easy to modify and to adapt to one’s personal taste and/or to a particular situation. Moreover, when the songs are sung, some words or part of the tune can be misheard or forgotten. Therefore, folksongs are not fixed in time; they evolve and change through the transmission. In the same way, folksongs “are ordinarily the product of an unknown person or group of persons” (Forcucci, 1984, p.18). Together, folksongs are a way in which people recount their everyday experiences and worries through their most intimate instrument; their own voice.

Folk Music vs. Modern Music

Above was a short simple definition of what folksongs are, but defining folk music is more complex than that. In fact, people still use music as a way to express themselves so why is their music not considered folk music? In order to understand this the section below will explore the differences between modern music and folk music.

Purpose of the Compositions

Folksongs are very personal and are particular to a region or to a people. In fact, folksongs might include specific speech patterns or expressions that are specific to a language or even a dialect; for example, the Jouale in Quebec or the Chiac in New Brunswick are dialect proper to those geographical ensembles (Forcucci, 1984). Moreover, the lyrics of a song might recount a historical event, or a distinct way of life (Forcucci, 1984). For instance, there is a whole part of the Canadian folk music repertoire about the coureur des bois (fur traders). This is a very important part of Canadian history that a person from another part of the world might not be aware of. Consequently, it is sometimes difficult to a foreign person to relate to the folk music of another country or nation: as he/she might not have the emotional attachment or the historical knowledge that is carried in the lyrics of the song. Therefore, folk songs are intimately related to the place where they were composed, which differs significantly to modern music which a larger majority of persons can relate.

The Folk Singer: The Spontaneous Creator vs. the Skilled Composer

One of the most important differences between modern music and folk music is how the songs are composed. Folksongs are the product of the everyday person: any creative person could have been the creator of the folk songs we still sing today. The greatest quality of folk composers is their ability to capture an anecdote and match it with a simple melody that can be sung by everyone (Forcucci, 1984). Similarly, folksongs are simple in structure and meaning; they touch subjects that are closely related to everyday life. In contrast, modern composers are often very skilled musicians; this elite group of people masters the complex language of music and its technologies, and they can share universal and abstract ideas through their music (Forcucci, 1984). Moreover, albums are the result of thousands of hours of work. Another difference lies in the performance of the two types of music (Forcucci, 1984). Folksongs are mostly improvised or modified while performing, while modern music is generally rehearsed before being performed in public. Perhaps we can think of jazz music in which improvisation is common; again, the musicians alone or together rehearse the improvisations prior to performance, even though the improvisation is different every time performed. Put differently, folk music is a realistic recounting of everyday live experience with the use of simple melodies, as modern music can express ideas through planned musical arrangements. Folk music is spontaneous, and not musically notated beforehand, in opposition to modern music that is usually notated before being performed.

Choice of Accompaniment

Another major difference between modern music and folk music is the kind of accompaniment used. As mentioned earlier, folksongs are simple in their structure and matter (Forcucci, 1984). Therefore, it is not surprising that they are also simple in their choice of accompanying instruments. For instance, folk singers generally accompany themselves with less formal instruments, such as the guitar, the banjo, the accordion, the piano, or the violin and further, most folksongs were accompanied by very few or no instruments (“Folk Music”, 2012). This differs substantially from modern music in which the use of larger musical ensembles is extremely common. Larger ensembles enable a composer to create more complex harmonies, and it also gives the composer the possibility to create more elaborate textures.

Technology and its Influence on Transmission

How music is transmitted has undergone a major change in the past decade; in fact, the development of online services transformed forever the musical industry. Online music download organisations, such as iTunes, are now a crucial part of the music selling market. This is at the complete opposite of the way folk songs used to be transmitted. Indeed, folksongs were transmitted my human contact, and more often during communal gatherings (Forcucci, 1984, p.16). It is interesting how the transmission of music depended for the longest time on social interactions, and how now, even the simplest social interaction such as going to the music store is no longer necessary. And yet, music from all around the world has never been so accessible.

Performance Settings and Interpretation

Lastly, the interpretation and similarly the performance settings of folk music contrast with those of modern music. The proximity in which folksongs were shared with the audience differs from the mega stadiums in which the most famous modern musicians perform. Even though more intimate settings still exist today, such as “open mic nights” or fire camp singing, the performing scene is more organized, and that implies a greater distance between the listener and the artist. This has an impact on the singer’s interpretation: it is easier to express sadness to a person sitting next to you, than to the person sitting in the very last row on a 50 000 people stadium. Therefore, the intimate performance setting of folksongs differentiate them from modern music, because it impacts the interpretation of the performer, and enhance the intimacy between the listener and the artist. Below is a table containing the main generalizations about folk songs established by Mr. Forcucci (1984) in his book A folk song history of America (p.18).

References

Folk Music. (n.d.). The Canadian Encyclopedia. Retrieved from http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/emc/folk-music

Forcucci, S. L. (1984). A folk song history of America: America through its songs. Englewood Cliffs, NY: Prentice-Hall Inc.

Poston, E. & Arma, P. (1972). The Faber book of French folk songs. London, UK: Faber and Faber limited.