Tech: Phones snooping on audio

Subject: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 08:17 PM

Yesterday evening I happened to listen to a CD of music by Poulenc which I hadn't heard in months. It ended with his Sextet for piano and wind instruments.

Next thing I do with my phone that evening is Bing-search for videos of John Doonan playing Irish music on the piccolo. Not many hits - and among them, a video of that Poulenc sextet. Which I had never referred to on the internet in any way - no searches, no comment on any forum. And no link whatever to Doonan.

Last week my wife was talking to a disabled neighbour and suggested that a microwavable hot water bottle might be safer than what she was using. Neighbour had never heard of them before. Behold, the next search she does on her phone brings up an ad for one.

A couple of years ago I was on a bus into Edinburgh and got into a conversation with the woman next to me. One of us (I forget which) was going to the dentist. Next ad I see on my phone is about dentists in Edinburgh. I had never typed anything about dentists into anything sent to the Internet.

I love Big Brother.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 09:52 PM

I've noticed that a lot also. Things I type into Mudcat (using Chrome) come up in ads on Instagram and are promoted next time I go to Amazon.

Small world.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 10:58 PM

I'm so pleased I don't have a "smart" phone, I often refer to it as a "stupid" phone but might start calling it a "sensible" phone

sandra

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 11:06 PM

Sandra, that's my usual line when I'm told to do the QR code thingy for COVID contact tracing. "Sorry, my phone isn't a smart phone, it's a stupid phone." My next line is usually, "If the government requires me to use a smart phone then they can supply me with the phone and pay for the data usage."

I was at work a few years back in an office and I heard a couple of my colleagues having a quiet chat. Next thing I heard one of them ask why her phone had shown something on the topic she was just talking about. She was adamant that she had not done any searches for that topic. She was an intensely private person. I think she would have been devastated to think that her conversations were being monitored in any way, even by tech/robot means.

I told Hubby about the incident and he (an IT techie) said she obviously had not changed the relevant privacy settings on her phone. That's all I know about it, but I can ask him for more info if anyone needs to know.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: JennieG
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 11:11 PM

I have a basic smart phone, but it isn't internet-abled.....by choice, which means it also doesn't do the covid scanny thingy. When I enquired at the telco about such matters I was told that upgrading it (because I'm on the most basic plan for calls and texts only, have been for years) would cost another $50 per month.

So my phone, and I, stay dumb.

I haven't heard about Jack's snooping, but I believe each and every word. Technology is getting a bit too smart.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Planetluvver
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 12:27 AM

Jack, is it possible that you had looked up directions to the dentist using a phone app? But that does not explain the Poulenc sextet.

A weird social media thing happened to me recently, though it did not involve audio.

I attended a song circle on my PC. Often I will copy items from the Zoom chat window and save them, either by sending an email to myself, or creating a Wordpad document. Later in the day, Facebook made a friend recommendation of one of the attendees. I might have copied and pasted his name as part of a block of text, but I had not looked for him on Facebook.

If he had made a friend request, that would be one thing, and I would not have an issue with it. No, this was a suggestion from Facebook of someone I have only known from Zoom.

I just realized, if I sent myself an email, I would have pasted the information into a Gmail tab in Google Chrome Facebook would have been open in another Chrome browser tab. But someone told me that Facebook and Google are competitors and are not good playmates.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Helen
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 12:29 AM

Yep, same here Jennie. I just use mine for calls and texts and taking photos. When I upgrade to a slightly less stupid phone because this one is old (in phone years), I'll still use it for the same basics.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 01:00 AM

AS a senior citizen living on life savings I'm too afraid of fraud or identity theft to have a smart phone. Our mobile is not connected to the Internet.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 01:03 AM

Not only audio but the camera too. We have mega Intel plants round here and a little birdy told me Intel has been working on eye tracking. I keep a little bit of Blue Tack on the forward len. Some people tape their microphone but I enjoy telling Goggle etc. how evil they all are

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 01:12 AM

Just 'cause you're paranoid.......

"Alexa! Finish that sentence!"

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 03:17 AM

paperback, I have sticky notes around my iMac, some don't stay stuck so I use a bit of blue-tak.

When I joined a zoom concert last year, my image was very blurry & I had to try & rub off the residue of the blue-tak. Didn't work & everyone else had a crystal clear image & mine stayed eerie ...

Which of course means if THEY are spying on me they won't see much.

sandra (surrounded by sticky notes - yellow, light yellow, lemon, neon yellow, blue, neon blue, pale pink, bright pink, neon pink & light green leaf-shaped!)

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 06:20 AM

It's worth remembering that if it wasn't for the internet "spying" on us, everything we do on it would be costing us big mazumas (yeah, I know we pay for the advertising when we buy stuff...). Just don't go on Facebook, Instagram et al., and only worry if you've got something to hide. Well that's me anyway.

Now why do I keep getting ads for colourful ladies' dresses, a forty-quid monocular that's better than telescopes worth three grand, and sexy Asian women, all avenues down which I've never ventured, honest... ;-)

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 06:34 AM

I think I'm gonna say this is a non-music tech discussion and belongs below the line.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 07:34 AM

Fair enough - though it was the music angle that really spooked me: my phone was listening in and doing some Tunepal-like recognition to report back to the advert-server on what my interests were.

Could be interesting to experiment with this, to see what they can manage to identify (probably nothing they can't make money on).

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 11:14 AM

Tried an experiment - played a CD of Jacques Brel, who I don't think I've ever mentioned on the web. LOUD.   Did a few searches but no suggestions along those lines.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Helen
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 11:33 AM

Jack, regarding your opening comments, did you happen to talk about Poulenc to anyone after listening to the CD and before your phone did its tricksy search? Or did you say aloud, something like "I think I'll listen to the Poulenc CD. I haven't heard it in months".

You said in your OP that you, "..had never referred to [Poulenc] on the internet in any way - no searches, no comment on any forum" but if you mentioned Poulenc in conversation your clever-clogs/too-smart-for-its-own-good phone may have eavesdropped and very helpfully done a search in case you wanted more info.

I did a quick search on:

smart phones audio eavesdropping

and there are instructions on modifying settings to prevent audio eavesdropping. It would help to add your phone type to the search terms.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 02:04 PM

Thank you, Jack and Helen for your insights on this matter. Jack, I showed your first post to my husband, and he agrees that having a phone which "listens" to our household is a bad idea.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 02:22 PM

No, I hadn't talked about Poulenc for months, and I don't think I've ever talked out loud about the Sextet.

But now there's a mention of Brel here it'll be interesting to see what I get next.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Helen
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:03 PM

Another technical invention which won't be allowed into our home is Google Home. It is designed to respond to audio, i.e. it is designed to eavesdrop.

1984, here we come! No, I meant to say, here we are!

Why Orwell’s 1984 could be about now

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 11:06 PM

Thomas Friedman gave a talk in Anchorage in 2001, a few months before 9/11. In that talk, which was substantially about the changes wrought by the internet, Friedman talked about the internet's "Super empowered individuals" and specifically mentioned Osama Bin Laden. Relevant to this thread he talked about Big Brother but said that what was more likely to happen was a lot of 'empowered' Little Brothers.

This was before the distillation of hundreds of large internet powers to the few big names we are dealing with now. It is yet significant that in the Western World they do not APPEAR to be governmental or political entities so much as commercial.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 12:00 AM

I'm going to be vague here.

Maybe a year ago I watched a video on the risks of the "smart" home. This is a deal where your phone communicates with equipment in your home, so that you can turn on the oven, change the thermostat and I-don't-know-what-all from a distance.

The video shows what can go wrong when this system is hacked. The home in question had an electronic security system, and my heart stopped when I watched the lock on the front door unlocking itself, obeying a remote command from a hacker. The homeowners looked sick too.

For me, no amount of convenience would be worth that kind of violation.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Helen
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 12:48 AM

leeneia, I saw something on TV recently about hackers being able to look at home security camera vision for both inside and outside the home. That's scary!

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: DaveRo
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 03:00 AM

Jack Campin wrote: No, I hadn't talked about Poulenc for months...

It was probably a coincidence. Poulenc may often come up in searches but you only noticed because you'd just played it.

Think of a piece by a similar composer (in terms of popularity) - but don't play it or type it. Then look for it in your searches for a few days.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 06:32 AM

I've always regarded gizmos that can smartly operate my freezer, telly, heating, etc., as having only a tiny marginal advantage over my doing those things for myself, if any at all. The fact that these things can be hacked is an easy deal-breaker. Total fail on the risk-benefit side of things...

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: DaveRo
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 06:56 AM

It's actually quite useful being able to turn the heating on, or up, after a day out in winter, or when you get back from holiday. The risk of 'hacking' is purely theoretical.

Security cameras are another matter. There a many cheap internet-connected cameras with no ability to update insecure software. I wouldn't have one of those.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 11:10 AM

I keep a little hood over my web cam when it isn't in use, and have marginal smart stuff (the Echo Dot) here. I didn't setup Alexa to work on my phone (it came equipped, I got it at a great discount because it was advertised as an Alexa phone, but you don't have to enable it.) Alexa via the Dots can play music and turn on and off one smart bulb in the kitchen. And I'm sure it does listen in, though I can and often do turn it off (there is a button on the top). I'm sure it mostly hears "Cookie, no!" and "Pepper, move!" as I wade through the dog scrum during the day.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 08:08 PM

If your phone has any voice ability, it is always listening, or it couldn't hear you say whatever phrase it is that turns on the voice thing. People think that phrase turns on the listening, but no, that is not how it works.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Jos
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 07:04 AM

My phone is not linked to the internet.
I keep the cameras on my laptops when I'm not using them, but the laptops could still be listening. Mostly they will hear either Radio 4, or birds in my garden, or nothing at all.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Jos
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 07:06 AM

Oops - that should be 'I keep the cameras on my laptops covered'.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 07:33 AM

There are other posibilities Jack. When I made a dentist appointment in person without any existing phone, in the following days a plethora of dentist ads hit my computer. The dentist office probably entered information for insurance purposes or other reason on the web.

+
US police collaborated with Australia to sell over the web a FAKR encryption app that attracted criminals to buy and use. The police sat back for a year and watched all the messages until they busted some international crime rings.

Some AI can predict with minimal information such as age and name to a high predictbility rate. Then there is coincidence.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: meself
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 10:58 AM

My phone frequently urges me, via pop-up text, to say some certain phrase or other and be amazed by what ensues. I refrain, of course ... but the notice itself indicates that the phone is listening ....

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 11:12 PM

In the 60s there was a wild and very wicked movie starring James Coburn. It was called "The President's Analyst" and I think it is still worth a watch. It involved a very hip analyst being hired to treat the U.S. President for stress. It included rare appearances from a great humorist named Severn Darden and one of the active parties was: TPC: The Phone Company.

In many plays and TV science fiction series a recurring theme has been humans being combined into a collective, both with and against their will, but usually without their consent. It may be regarded as one of the themes of "Rhinoceros" (along with Fascism).

With the internet, the continual miniaturization of electronics and the continual improvement of software and sensors, we are getting ever closer to making this a reality. Will that reality be optional? Or will it be regarded as a mental vaccine that society can ordain?

Hey Alexa! Play the theme from The Prisoner!

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: leeneia
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 11:50 AM

Maybe Jack's phone came up with Poulenc in the naive belief that that's what he meant when he typed 'piccolo.' That doesn't explain about the sextet, unless that's Poulenc's most famous piece.

Recently I needed a specialty chair, and an employee at Office Depot suggested I order a drafter's chair. So I searched for 'drafter's chair' on their website, and it suggested 'brown kraft paper.'

Why that? Because both drafter's and kraft have AFT in them. That's how computers think. (I wound up getting the chair from Amazon.) In the same way, Poulenc and Piccolo share a lot of letters.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 03:12 PM

What do you do if your name's Alexa?

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: meself
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 10:58 AM

Get yourself a good lawyer - you're going to get sued.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 11:16 AM

"What do you do if your name's Alexa?"

You could call it Echo

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 12:22 PM

A guest at the house yesterday was telling us how her grand daughter took her inheritance from her father and bought A Lexus! and as we all repeated it, the Echo dot started chattering away. "Alexa, stop!" was the command to end that.

Subject: RE: Tech: Phones snooping on audio
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 03:19 PM

Off-topic but I am reminded of our basset hound, Clarence, who leapt up and ran to anybody who mentioned their security *clearance* - embassy brat stories!