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Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11

Jon Freeman 21 Oct 21 - 11:32 AM
Bonzo3legs 21 Oct 21 - 10:44 AM
Jon Freeman 21 Oct 21 - 08:02 AM
Bonzo3legs 21 Oct 21 - 05:18 AM
DaveRo 21 Oct 21 - 03:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 11:32 AM

That's probably a good idea, bonzo, thanks. I'll look into the program and probably get a USB disk to do this with but that will probably have to wait until next week.

For now though, I've done quite a few downloads and installs, have a reasonable group of programs set and am on Win 11 at the moment. So far, so good, but I think it will be a while before I decide whether or not this is a move for the better for me.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 10:44 AM

Jon, I suggest you clone your hard disc first so you have a backup of everything if things go pear shaped. Acronis is very good.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 08:02 AM

I tried twice to download the ISO but wound up with truncated files. A 5GB download takes ages with my not much more than 2Mbps connection so I didn't bother trying again.

I've not been that impressed with the Assistant method even with a PC MS says is OK though. I've been through this process twice with my PC (I decided to start afresh with Win 9 pro I bought rather than continue with the Win 9 Home version I'd taken by using a disk from another PC) and on both occasions, the upgrade failed at around 70% with some cryptic error message.

The first time, I thought it was because the Nvidia graphics card would not support Direct X 12 but, second time round, I had a compatible Nvidia graphics card with the latest drivers installed and it still failed. My best guess is that my system needs the drivers for the built Radeon grapics installed (and perhaps having that card in use - both my succesful attempts had this) before the upgrade will go throuh.

--
One a diferent sujbject, triggered by a question Dave asked... I may find it an expensive mistake but I want to see how I get on with using Win 11 as the main OS on my desktop PC.

Most of the programs I use are cross platform and I can still do any server admin I might need via ssh. I'm not a great fan of dual boot in that I tend only to use the other OS when stuck and don't want to try the route of Win 11 on a virtual server or see if I can get more coplicatd programs running under wine. One program I do want to have a play with is the free for personal use version of Fusion 360 and there may be other examples of programs without Linux versions I'd like to try.

Whatever I wind up settling for, the rest of the system (which includes mums PC and dad's laptop) will remain on Linux, in my case both OpenSuse and Raspberry Pi OS.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 05:18 AM

From all my successful and unsuccessful (is that right - not successfull??) attempts to install Windows 10 on my unsupported PCs, I recommend that the ISO route is used, which is best installed immediately after download.

Download to hard drive and extract to a new folder. Download an appraiseres.dll file with all referenced to TMP and UEFI removed, and replace file in sources folder.

Install from setup file.

Checking PC should then be bypassed.

I found that an ISO downloaded on a previous day would not install for some reason!!


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 03:26 AM

Meanwhile, something new:
Microsoft unveils Android apps for Windows 11 (for US users only)
(That's the kind of long-text link that is now easy with this.)

I use an Android tablet. I doubt if there are many - any? - Android apps I would want to run inside Windows. I do have an app called Music Scanner which will play a piece of sheet music, but I can't imagine using it on a laptop; it needs a good camera for a start. And if you wanted to use Google Pay you'd need TPM 2 ;)


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 12:31 AM

It's 2021.
By now, consumers shouldn't have to do all that...


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 11:02 PM

Lady Hillary sent this to me. There are several "simple" hacks to get around TPM 2.0.

https://betanews.com/2021/07/03/registry-hack-bypass-tpm-windows-11/



https://www.techspot.com/news/91691-here-how-bypass-windows-11-tpm-cpu-requirements.html

This column and its links tell you what to consider before doing it. If you go forward, make sure you have a backup disk or thumb drive set up and loaded.


AskWoody Plus Newsletter Logo
ISSUE 18.40.F • 2021-10-18 • Read this issue online.


In this issue

PUBLIC DEFENDER: A single Registry line enables Windows 11 without TPM 2.0

Additional articles in the PLUS issue

LANGALIST: Can you fully delete the Edge browser? Should you?

BEST UTILITIES: Freeware Spotlight — CAD

HARDWARE DIY: Opal: Physical assembly — the motherboard

PATCH WATCH: Windows 11 is officially vulnerable




A single Registry line enables Windows 11 without TPM 2.0
Brian Livingston
By Brian Livingston

Microsoft has published a new support document revealing a one-line entry anyone can add to the Registry allowing Windows 11 to install on devices that do not have the so-called TPM 2.0 chip installed on the motherboard.

The Trusted Platform Module, as I explained in the September 6 AskWoody Newsletter, is a small hardware component that generates and stores cryptographic keys, among other things. Until the release of the recent support document, Microsoft had repeatedly stated that the 2.0 version of TPM would be a requirement before Windows 11 would install. In addition, Win11 has CPU and other hardware requirements above those of Win10, as set forth in Microsoft's Win11 specifications.

Supermicro AOM-TPM-9665V-S moduleIn this column, I'll show you exactly how you can use this new Registry entry to install Win11 on systems lacking TPM 2.0. TPM 2.0 may be provisioned on a motherboard by a discrete chip (a Supermicro 9665V is shown at left), or it may be integrated into the chipset associated with the processor. Win11 officially supports TPM 2.0 functionality built into the 2017 Intel Core 8th-gen microarchitectures and later, the 2018 AMD Zen+ CPU and later, and others.

However, many machines that came to market as recently as two or three years ago contain an earlier TPM 1.2 version. The final revision of TPM 1.2 was released a decade ago and appeared to be a standard that would endure. As recently as June 24, 2021, Microsoft was officially saying TPM 1.2 would be a "hard floor" for installing Win11. The company's announcements at that point stated TPM 2.0 was merely "recommended." But just one day later, MS reversed course, saying it was "required," as described in a CRN article.

IMPORTANT: Before you make any Registry changes or install anything new, it's important that you read to the end of this story for valid reasons why you might not want to install Win11 on hardware that Redmond considers "unsupported."

There’s one Registry key to rule them all
For purposes of this discussion, the following is merely an outline of the Registry tweak. You should first read Microsoft's official explanation, which is in its new "Ways to install Windows 11" support document.

Step 1. In Win10, press Win+R, enter tpm.msc, and verify TPM 1.2 is enabled.
Step 2. Run Microsoft's PC Health Check app, just so you know your configuration.
Step 3. Go to the Windows 11 software download page.
Step 4. Under "Download Win11 disk image (ISO)," click and read "Before you begin."
Step 5. Below that, click the "Download" button to burn an ISO (to a DVD, for instance).
Step 6. Before upgrading to Win11, press Win+R and enter regedit.
Step 7. Navigate to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\Setup\MoSetup.
Step 8. Right-click the right-hand pane and create a new DWORD (32-bit) Value.
Step 9. Name the entry AllowUpgradesWithUnsupportedTPMOrCPU.
Step 10. Give the entry a value of 1.
Step 11. Close the Registry Editor.
The above steps should allow you to install Win11 over Win10, even if a device has only TPM 1.2 enabled and not TPM 2.0.

As suggested by part of the Registry key itself — TPMOrCPU — the workaround will do more than just keep Win11 from requiring TPM 2.0. (With the trick, the requirement is only TPM 1.2, which is widely installed.) The "unbound" Win11 will also accept several generations of CPUs that didn't make it into Microsoft's Win11 specs.

You may still run afoul of other requirements, such as a 1GHz dual-core 64-bit CPU or better, 4GB of RAM, 64GB of disk storage, and a Secure Boot–capable UEFI (formerly known as BIOS). Since this whole procedure is unsupported, you're on your own if it doesn't work.

If the upgrade was unwise, you can revert a machine back to Win10 using the following steps:

Start, Settings, System, Recovery, Go back
That sequence will work only within 10 days after installing Win11, according to a separate Microsoft support document. After that 10-day period, the new operating system will automatically delete the reversion files to liberate disk space.

The Registry hack is not for novices nor the faint of heart
For more background on why you might or might not want to use the above Registry trick to install Win11 on unsupported hardware, I spoke with one of the smartest people I know: Carl Anderson. As a contractor, he worked for eight years at DARPA (the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency). Subsequently based at Bryant University — a private business school in Smithfield, Rhode Island — he was for 24 years the director of the International Trade Data Network, initially funded and governed by the US Department of Commerce and the Small Business Administration.

Although he's now retired, Anderson still provides consulting services to a few small businesses. For their benefit, he's put together a four-page, 150KB PDF explaining various different ways to implement the Registry fix.

These ways include:

Microsoft's officially documented method;
Installing Win11 from an ISO (International Organization for Standardization) image;
Manually changing certain Win10 files so Win11 will install; or
Using an open-source batch file to make the needed changes.
Boy, there are a lot of ways to skin this cat! Anderson has kindly given me permission to let AskWoody readers download the PDF.

Anderson cautions that he won't support his clients or anyone else who installs Win11 on unsupported hardware. I'll describe the pros and cons below.

Did Microsoft create its Registry entry due to manufacturer pressure?
First, we need to address the elephant in the room. After loudly claiming that Microsoft would not allow Win 11 to install itself on machines lacking TPM 2.0, why did the company insert a simple one-line command in the Registry permitting exactly that?

Anderson accepts a rumor, which I've also heard, that Microsoft was pressed by large system manufacturers, such as HP Enterprise, to provide an easy way for their older hardware to install Win11. As he describes the situation:

After Microsoft made TPM 2.0 a "hard" requirement, HP Enterprise requested MS develop a workaround for its clients with HP hardware that passed all Win11 requirements except TPM 2.0. Microsoft acquiesced and developed the bypass allowing TPM 1.2.

MS likely hadn't intended the bypass for non-enterprise deployment, and possibly only for specific HP hardware, but the cat was out of the bag.

This leads me to believe that Win updates and patches should continue working using the bypass, but I wouldn't bet on it long-term without official word from MS.

What does Microsoft itself say about updates and security patches? The company's "Installing Windows 11" support document clearly states: "Devices that do not meet these system requirements will no longer be guaranteed to receive updates, including but not limited to security updates."

That seems pretty definite! But predicting what Redmond will and will not do in the future — especially under pressure from some of its largest buyers — is a fool's errand. Anyone who tells you they know for sure is pulling your leg. Even Microsoft executives themselves can't be certain what they'll do in the years to come.

What software runs fine on TPM 1.2, and what truly requires TPM 2.0?
As an encryption generator and secure storage device, every version of TPM is so complicated that I could write hundreds of pages on the subject. In fact — if you really need the details on TPM 2.0 — Will Arthur and David Challener have converted their 2015 book on TPM 2.0 into a free 375-page PDF. It's a heavy read. They quote one wag as calling the protocol "security through incomprehensibility."

So let's cut to the chase: What software actually requires TPM 2.0, and what software can run perfectly well on TPM 1.2? I've created Figure 1, based on Microsoft's own "TPM Recommendations" document:

TPM
                  1.2 and TPM 2.0 features
Figure 1. TPM 1.2, which exists in most of today’s PCs, can support everything that the new TPM 2.0 can — with the exception of the four categories indicated with a red “X.” Source: Author's summary of Microsoft’s “TPM Recommendations” document

A machine with TPM 1.2 enabled supports everything that TPM 2.0 does, other than the four categories with an "X" in Figure 1. Do you really need any apps such as those?

Excellent answers are provided by Steve Gibson, a security expert and the developer of SpinRite and other popular software, in his September 7 "Security Now!" PDF. (In that multi-topic report, his discussion of TPM begins on page 10.) Here's a paraphrase of his comments on the four scenarios that require TPM 2.0:

Windows Autopilot can be used to deploy hundreds of Windows PCs or HoloLens 2 devices. So no big loss there if individuals and small businesses don't have TPM 2.0.
SecureBIO is an enterprise-targeted biometric identity system. As an alternative, Windows Hello works just fine with only TPM 1.2.
Windows Defender System Guard is a post-boot integrity verifier that works with TPM 2.0 to verify that the operating system wasn't compromised during the boot. No one outside of a huge enterprise is likely to use this.
TPM 2.0 adds several 256-bit encryption ciphers, but since TPM 2.0 is backward-compatible with TPM 1.2, software could simply continue using the TPM 1.2 functions on platforms having either TPM standard.
Microsoft's "TPM Recommendations" document also mentions "Device Encryption," which is a feature that uses TPM 2.0 to encrypt entire disks. But Gibson says MS BitLocker is superior and runs just fine with either version of TPM.

The bottom line: If you need one of those four features, use TPM 2.0
What if your company wants to implement software that works only with TPM 2.0 support? By all means, get TPM 2.0–enabled PCs and run your app. But if you don't need TPM 2.0, you can tune out all the hype about Windows 11 and ignore the "upgrade" for now.

As Joanna Stern, the personal-technology columnist for The Wall Street Journal, reported in her October 6 review: "I've come to the conclusion that Windows 11 is mostly about Microsoft and its partners selling more computers, not about giving your current one a new lease on life." With its lack of compelling new features, Stern said, "Microsoft's latest feels more like Windows 10.5 than what the company promised."

In Gibson's PDF, he puts it somewhat more bluntly:

There are NO NEW FEATURES in Windows 11 that require anything more of the TPM than Windows 10 already does... yet Windows 11 is refusing to run on the same TPMs as Windows 10... apparently because someone at Microsoft thought it would be cool to enact a more restrictive change in requirements.

Given these realities, the path Microsoft should take for Windows 11 is clear: Simply use the maximum security that’s being offered by whatever, if any, TPM is present in a system. If the platform offers TPM 2.0, great! Use the 256-bit enhanced security that’s available there. If not, settle for the 160-bit security offered by SHA-1 and TPM 1.2's HMAC — just as Windows 10 does now. If a platform doesn’t offer TPM 2.0, then its user cannot take advantage of those four enterprise-oriented features ...

So, explain to those enterprise users that if they want those four features they'll need to upgrade their hardware. But don’t tell any random home or small business user, who couldn't care less about Windows Defender System Guard and Autopilot, that they're S.O.L. if they wish to upgrade to the new Windows ... It's going to be seen as capricious and arbitrary, because as we've just seen, it is. [Emphasis in the original.]

The 160-bit SHA-1 encryption protocol was fully broken by security researchers in 2020, as explained in a Threatpost blog. The researchers' attack required two months of computations using 900 GPUs. But that much computing power costs only $11,000 to $45,000 at current cloud rental rates — well within the means of serious adversaries. So you should never use SHA-1 for digital signatures or any other private communications, although many organizations still do. Only 256-bit or higher protocols are truly secure these days.

Top secret: This is being pushed by the US Department of Defense
I suppose this will cost me my high-level, "eyes only" security clearance, but I'm compelled to tell you that Microsoft's moral quandary has a lot to do with the United States' defense-security needs.

To protect my reputation as a "good citizen" — in hopes that Tom Cruise will still consider me loyal enough to play an agent in his next "Mission Impossible" film — I can deflect the blame by pointing the finger directly at Microsoft. This news leak is not my fault! The Redmond tech giant let slip the big secret in the same "TPM Recommendations" document cited above:

For security reasons, some entities are moving away from SHA-1. Notably, NIST [the National Institute of Standards and Technology] has required many federal agencies [including the Department of Defense] to move to SHA-256.

In my defense, so to speak, the Department of the Navy also spilled the beans about this "massive, multiphase" SHA-256 upgrade requirement in a recent article.

The US defense connection is also a major reason why Microsoft will prepare separate Win11 versions for sale in China, Russia, and other authoritarian regimes. In these countries and many others, TPM chips are against the law. These powers may be suspicious that the DoD has inserted a back door into TPM encryption, as I reported in my September 6 column.

Some very big dog walkers are yanking on Microsoft's collar. Despite the Redmond corporation's size and wealth, it faces a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma:

Very big makers and users of PCs, servers, and other devices are pressuring Microsoft not to make hundreds of millions of their deployed units unable to run Win11, which many CEOs will think is an essential new thing. That's the reason MS added its new, permissive Registry key.
The largest defense department in the world — which has a bigger budget than the militaries of China, Russia, and the next five countries combined — is telling Microsoft that DoD won't buy and use Windows unless SHA-256 is baked in, which requires TPM 2.0. That's why MS is making Win11 sound like a fantastic, exciting toy everyone needs.
Ignore Win11's lame new Start menu and other cosmetic changes, such as rounded corners on dialog boxes. The strange, herky-jerky intro of Win11 is all about Microsoft not wanting to lose business from two of its most profitable groups of buyers.

Good things come to those who wait
Win11 isn't a must-have upgrade yet. It's not like Win 3.1, which introduced the revolutionary TrueType printing technology in 1992, or Windows 8.1, which rescued people in 2013 from the botched Windows 8 product. For now, Win10 is your best bet for a stable, reliable platform. Microsoft has committed to continue supporting Win10 with upgrades and security patches at least through October 14, 2025 (and probably longer).

That gives you plenty of time to evaluate things. Win11 may turn out to be the Vista of operating systems.

Now you know why it's not a good idea to install Win11 with a Registry tweak. The main reason to install Win11 is if you need to implement one of the four software features shown in Figure 1. In that case, you need hardware that includes TPM 2.0, anyway — and your machines may need to meet several other system requirements as well.

Installing Win11 on unsupported hardware may simply saddle you with devices that will someday miss out on crucial Microsoft updates.

Before you do anything, read all the documents that are linked to above. Then read one of the following explainers:

If you absolutely crave whatever is the latest thing MS has put out, you'll learn how you can download Win11 now, without waiting for the gradual rollout — which is expected to continue through mid-2022 — in a CNET guide. You may need to enable TPM, if it's disabled by default on a device, as explained in a Wired article.
If you prefer to look before you leap, several deal-breaking bugs and missing features in the "1.0 version" of Win11 are described in a Trusted Reviews evaluation. Poor performance, memory leaks, no Android apps yet, hard-to-customize taskbar — oh my.
As always, watch AskWoody for more news. Features that Win10 has and that Win11 doesn't are listed in a Lance Whitney critique, while some actual new features of Win11 are in his review (donation required).



Scales of Justice        Do you know something that we all should know? Tell me about it! I'll keep your identity totally confidential or give you credit, as you prefer. Send your story via the Public Defender tips page.


Talk Bubbles        Join the conversation! Your questions, comments, and feedback about this topic are always welcome in the AskWoody Lounge!
The PUBLIC DEFENDER column is Brian Livingston's campaign to give you consumer protection from tech. If it's irritating you, and it has an "on" switch, he'll take the case! Brian is a successful dot-com entrepreneur, author or co-author of 11 Windows Secrets books, and author of the new book Muscular Portfolios. Get his free monthly newsletter.



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LANGALIST

Fred Langa        
Can you fully delete the Edge browser? Should you?
By Fred Langa

The answer is yes, no, and maybe, depending on exactly what you're trying to do and what risks you're willing to take. You'll find the how-to information below.


PATCH WATCH

Susan Bradley        
Windows 11 is officially vulnerable
By Susan Bradley

Call me silly, but I never consider a Windows release as "official" until the first security updates come down on Patch Tuesday.

Windows 11 has 39 vulnerabilities; two of the fixes are deemed critical and 37 are important. KB5006674 also includes several fixes that, according to reports, impact performance on specific computers.

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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 07:24 AM

A correction to a previous post.

Digikam exists as a straight Windows installable program. Another program that I thought would require KDE setting up is Kdenlive.


I’ve been playing around a bit with Windows and I rapidly decided that the MS Solitaire Collection is obnoxious. My own choice of patience games for that platform would PySolFC which apparently also offers some mahjong games. It does need python installed. I note that the website does mention some AV software detecting problems but I’m happy to accept that they are right in suggesting theses results are false positives and Malware Bytes gives the latest version I downloaded the all clear.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:58 PM

Still receiving Windows 11 updates on unsupported PCs!!!


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 04:08 PM

Notwithstanding my previous post, I have 2 unsupported computers which have received all updates for Windows 11 which is now at version 22000.258 !!


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 11:56 AM

microsoft are liars and thieves.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 09:16 AM

Microsoft is successfully making a very convincing case for Chromebooks...


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 08:51 AM

Cannot upgrade from Windows 10 to 11 from USB and keep files and software, has to be done from file set on hard drive. Now that won't install - I think perhaps MS is now putting something more in ISO to stop old PCs upgrading to Windows 11.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 01:54 AM

Good luck, I rolled back to Windows 10 last night because I wanted to try the registry change method for Windows 11 installation on an old PC as recommended by MS. I tried from a mounted file set on the hard drive after putting in the registry changes, but that didn't work so next I'll delete the registry changes and boot from mounted file set on a usb drive, then at the fail message I can get to X:sources command prompt from shift+f10 and redo the registry changes, but I'm not too optimistic.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 11:10 PM

Yes, 8.1 will upgrade directly to Win 10 without needing a new key.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 04:13 PM

Windows 11 is now allowing wind back to Windows 10 - within 10 days of installation.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Oct 21 - 09:43 AM

Interesting question, Dave. A couple of programs I like that are not straightforwardly (there is a KDE port) ran on Windows are Digikam and K3b but I'd probably find Windows alternatives I like. Mythtv could be a problem but Kodi would probably do me if I just wanted a front end on a Windows platform and I would want to run the backend on a Linux machine.

On my own drift... I swapped what had got relegated to the spare because of some problem and I found I'd forgotten was a Ryzen 5 system for my desktop, exchanging a couple of bits from the latter. I now have a dual boot Leap 15.3/Win 11 PC as my Desktop PC.

I'm not sure how often I'll boot into Win 11 but at least it's there...


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 13 Oct 21 - 03:29 AM

Meanwhile, under the TS (Techie-Shit) label:
The Best Part of Windows 11 Is Its Linux

Windows 10 has been able to run Linux for some years but I could never see what use it was for a desktop user. It was command-line only: maybe running ffmpeg to process sound files? Windows 11 adds a graphical interface, which makes it more useful. Are there any Linux-only music or video programs that would make it worthwhile? And if there are why would you not just use Linux?


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Oct 21 - 05:47 PM

Windows 11 updates are not being blocked for "non compatable" PCs!!!


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 05:05 PM

I meant "You could run these games under Windows 7 under Hyper-V in Windows 10."


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 03:58 PM

You could run these games under Hyper-V in Windows 10. But I've no idea whether, if you then upgraded to Windows 11, it would leave your Hyper-V installation alone.

It ought to. I've not used Hyper-V but I run a slide scanner under Windows 7 in a virtual machine (vbox) under Linux, and it's unaffected by an update to the Linux release.

And I don't know whether it would be more effort than what you do now.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 10:45 AM

Every time I add an upgrade like that it deletes my MS Win7 Solitaire games, the last free ones that are worth playing. No ads. (I have it stored and can load it back, but it's a nuisance.)


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 07:03 AM

An upgrade doesn't require it either, both from Windows 7 and 10. Just click on local account.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 06:18 AM

Backwoodsman wrote: Well I’ve already read enough in this thread to convince me to steer clear of Win 11...
It's clear from all the reviews that Windows 11 is not a major change from Windows 10; it could have been called Windows 10.1. The main visible change is to the user interface - the start menu, etc. The main benefits are invisible: improved hardware-enforced security, if your computer is new enough.

If my wife's Windows 10 laptop met the hardware requirement I would upgrade it - not immediately, but in a few months time. It doesn't, so Windows 10 is good until 2025.

Aside from all the non-standard methods of installing it, I am unclear from what I read whether an upgrade will require you to have a Microsoft account if you don't already. The Home vs Pro page I posted says that it's a requirement for Home but not Pro. A clean install doesn't require it - you can just ignore the request, the same as Windows 10. But an upgrade?


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 05:22 AM

Win 11 is just a curiosity thing to me BWM. Windows isn't even my main operating system. Where I want stability and longer runs, generally speaking (I can still have breakdowns), I get that. At the moment one of my Raspberry Pis has been running 313 days since last rebooted and my OpenSuse server PC 202 days.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 04:37 AM

Well I’ve already read enough Techie-shit in this thread to convince me to steer clear of Win 11, even though both Dell and MS keep telling me my new laptop is up-to-snuff for the free ‘upgrade’.

I don’t want to have to screw around the way you guys are doing, I just want a computer that does the straightforward, everyday stuff I tend to do, with a minimum of fuss and no farting around, crashes, work-around, yadda yadda. My laptop is there to serve me, not vice-versa.

Win 10 is chugging along on my m/c very happily and I understand how to use it. I’ll stick with it for a year or two until all the nonsense with 11 has been straightened out.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 04:14 AM

But you don't need a key if you have activated Windows 7 or 10, because a digital license is automatically generated. Presumabh the same for Windows 8 series as well.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 07:32 PM

win 11 pro [oem] keys are already on sale for around $25..

..so if you dont qualify for free update, and are in a mad rush to 'upgrade'...


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 07:57 AM

"This PC doesn't currently meet all the system requirements for Windows 11" message does not appear once Windows 11 has been installed on such a PC - it's currently installing a security update!!


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 07:50 AM

I forgot to mention that I was not bothered with the MS account nonsense, like you are when doing a clean install.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 04:29 AM

Good for you! The crashing is a pain, happened to me when using the Assistant so I've done it manually ever since - possibly half a dozen times now. I found the most reliable way is to download the iso to the machine - it won't fit on a USB with a FAT32 file system, then extract to a new folder.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 02:35 AM

Well I found that I did have a Win 11 compatible PC after all. I put a Win 10 disk from another PC in it and tried to upgrade. It took me a while but, for now, I do have a working Win 11 system.

I can’t say I’m impressed with the Windows Health Check which was downloaded following SRS’s link.

In the first instance rather than telling me what was wrong, it just gave me a vague message along the lines of “To see if this PC is compatible either check the specifications or ask the manufacturer”. I think that resolved when I updated the BIOS.

Having got the all clear I used the Assistant to install. This kept crashing at around 75%, The error number produced differing suggestions as to the problem and my solution came around in an odd way.

The first solution I looked at involved partitioning and I installed Aomei Partition Assistant. This software for some reason had a Win 11 compatibility checker. Running that one told me I was not compatible because of lack of DirectX 12 and something else.

I found the Nvidia GT210 graphics card I had (for my Linux preferences) been using would not support DirectX 12. Anyway I changed things round to use the onboard graphics, installed the AMD drivers and both checks then agreed I was ready to upgrade.

It went though this time.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 04:58 PM

I tried something different - made a clone of the Windows 10 SSD on my main PC and installed it on a spare old PC of 2011 vintage, then downloaded the Windows 11 ISO from the MS download page. Once downloaded, I extracted the file/folder set, copied then opened in Notebook the appraiserres.dll file (situated in the Sources folder).

I then deleted all instances of TPM and UEFI and saved the copy back to the Sources folder.

Windows 11 then installed without deleting data and software!!


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 08:05 AM

Just done a clean install of Windows 7 from DVD followed by a hybrid Windows 11 installation using a Windows 10 fileset with the Windows 11 install.esd so back to square one!!


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 04:27 AM

Interesting thanks.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 05:59 PM

"DISM can be used with older Windows image files although it cannot be used with images that are more recent than the installed version of DISM."

So I think my guess was correct. I suspect that DISM gets added to in every version of Windows. And my suggestion probably wouldn't work: I doubt if DISM.exe is a stand-alone executable; it looks complicated enough to require DLLs, which would have to come from Win 11 too.

A Windows 11 installation image, when booted, runs Windows 11, albeit a skeleton version.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 05:23 PM

I gave up in the end, it was the Pro official version I was trying to install from the command line.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 02:58 PM

Windows 11 Home vs Windows 11 Pro: here are the major differences


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 01:52 PM

I always get the more robust "Pro" version of the operating systems. What do you know about that distinction?


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 01:07 PM

"Didn't work" in what way? What did it do? Do you not get a message?

One possible problem is that if you had booted the iso it would have got wism.exe from that iso - i.e. it would be a Win 11 version of wism. As it is you're running a version from whatever version of Windows you are running. What is that?

You could try running dism from the iso:
E:/some_path/dism.exe /apply imge ...
You'd have to search for it to discover the path.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 11:56 AM

This command

DISM /Get-WimInfo /WimFile:E:\sources\install.wim

told me that Windows 11 is at index 1 as in the video. I put the iso on a second usb but the install command didn't work.

There must be a command to apply the install.wim file from the mounted Sources folder instead of the iso.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 05:56 AM

Well strap me to a tree and call me Brenda!!!!! How nice of MS to tell us something we already know!!!!!

Downloaded a Win 11 iso at just over 4.1Gb which was accepted by a usb drive, but in reality probably just under 4Gb. But although set to boot from usb in the bios, it would not. However a mounted version has now booted, and happily went to the command screen at the install error with shift+f10.

So it. now sits at X:Sources awaiting diskpart.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 02:53 AM

Microsoft themselves have published the registry change to enable Windows 11 on unsupported hardware:
Ways to install Windows 11

So if you really like the new user interface....


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 09:42 PM

C|Net pushed this via email today:

Fix the 'this PC can't run Windows 11' error: 4 types of problems you could have
We found four ways to work around the pesky Windows 11 installation error. You may be able to get the download by enabling TPM and Secure Boot.

If you saw that your PC is not compatible with Windows 11, it may be because your system doesn't have two security settings turned on, Secure Boot and TPM 2.0. Here's how to do it.

Microsoft started a phased rollout of Windows 11 Tuesday. But you probably won't get Windows 11 just yet. If you're planning on downloading the new OS on your existing PC, you might run into some speed bumps due to the system requirements for the new operating system. (Here's how to download Windows 11 and how to create a Windows 11 install drive.)

If you've tried installing Windows 11 Insider Preview or using the Microsoft PC Health Check app and were greeted with an error message reading, "This PC can't run Windows 11," your system might not have two essential security settings turned on: Secure Boot and TPM 2.0. (Here are two other things you must do before downloading Windows 11.) Many modern computers and processing chips from Intel and AMD have these features built in, and both are now required for all machines running Windows 11.

Once you've downloaded the PC Health Check app, you can click Check Now to begin the scanning process. The app will tell you whether your computer will support Windows 11, or what it's missing, and you can click See All Results for more information.

If your machine is new enough to support both, enabling TPM (short for Trusted Platform Module) and Secure Boot is often quite easy. No special skills are needed, and you'll just be clicking through menus. If you've never heard the words "BIOS menu" you might feel out of your element, but don't be intimidated. With a little patience, any first-timer can do this.

Here's what you need to know.


Follow the rest of it at the link.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 03:42 PM

Interesting, thanks.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 06:17 AM

I'm unfamiliar with the Windows commands (or for that matter any command line partitioning) but it didn't look that impossible to me, bonzo.

One thing I might question is what you do if you disk already had partitions but I'd probably use gparted live to set the partition table type and delete any existing partitions. I could even try to prepare the disk with new partitions that way. Going by his example, I think the first partition would need to be fat32 sized at 512Mb and the rest of the disk would be a ntfs partion. With a larger disk, you could opt to create more than one suitably sized partitions rather than one big one. Once created, the fat32 partition would need boot and esp flags set. I think Windows would assign drive letters which you would need to work out on booting to the ISO.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:46 PM

You can be a local user in Windows 11.

You can download Windows 11 via Media Creation Tool via a non compatable PC.

That aside, this is the video I'm trying to get my head around.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:00 PM

You can clean-install Windows on top of anything - or on a blank disk. But, according to Microsoft, to qualify for a free upgrade you must be running Windows 10.


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 03:41 PM

"nyway, a PC without an existing copy of Win 10 does not qualify for Win 11."

No, I did a clean install of Windows 11 from Windows 7!!


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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 03:14 PM

pfr - I use Reaper and, occasionally, Audacity with Win-10 and they work absolutely fine. Never had a problem, other than those caused by my own ineptitude as a recording engineer! ;-)


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