Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11 - (12!)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 03:30 AM

I doubt it. I would expect the installer to configure Windows for the particular machine - board chipset, architecture, type of processor, graphics, etc. It might work if the machines are identical - which obviously wouldn't be true if one met the MS spec and one didn't. You might have to clone the disk-ID too - if that's possible. Try it.

I see that MS are now saying that if you run Win 11 on unsupported hardware you're not entitled to updates, not that you won't get them.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 04:10 AM

Typical usaian dollar obsession!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 04:50 AM

No, I withdraw last post, wrong on this instance because windows upgrades are free.

Frankly I don't care if I don't get updates after windows 11 is released, and I'm sure that the majority of users don't care either!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 07:56 AM

The biggest up and coming driver for electronic waste must surely be Microsoft's intention to push the Windows 11 operating system onto consumers in the very near future. This new system has mandatory minimum system requirements that will render most current PCs and laptops obsolete.

There is no valid technical reason why existing hardware should not be able be able to run "windows 11" other than the fact that Microsoft plans to build-in 'incompatibility' with current hardware. After all it's only an operating system - which does not add any real value to the apps it hosts.

This is pure greed and is totally irresponsible bearing in mind what Microsoft (and Apple) have already done to the planet and the monopoly they hold in the tech sector.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 08:01 AM

MS is saying that those registry hacks won't work in the future. However, I'm pretty sure that a smart person (or at least smarter than MS which isn't really all that difficult) will be able to come up with a different hack, followed by another one, and so on... So I wouldn't worry too much if you want to run Win 11 on something that MS deemed "not secure enough". That statement must be the joke of the year!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 08:14 AM

Is Win 10 stable and reliable enough to reconsider using yet...???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 08:39 AM

Never given me any problems

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 08:21 AM

There is apparently a way of upgrading Windows 10 pro to Windows Enterprise, which will be supported by MS for 10 years.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 10:37 AM

The Win 11 iso is too big for a standard DVD. You have a dual-layer one?

Reading that reminded me of the laptop I bought circa 1996, a friend had the Windows 95 software (nothing to keep us from sharing back then) that we installed. It took a stack of about 25 3.5" floppy disks and a couple of hours to load it all.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 01:18 PM

Been there, got the T shirt!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 03:50 PM

"There is apparently a way of upgrading Windows 10 pro to Windows Enterprise, which will be supported by MS for 10 years"

Didn't work properly and activation was lost, but better to have tripped than never danced at all!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 04:13 PM

Ashley Hutchings?

By Windows Enterprise did you mean Windows LTSC?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 04:31 AM

Ashley Hutchings? What do you mean?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 05:02 AM

"Better to have tripped than never danced at all" occurs in the chorus of Dancing Under the Rose by Ashley Hutchings. It's on his LP By Gloucester Docks I Sat Down and Wept, sung by Polly Bolton I think.

Maybe it's a quote from somewhere else. There are several Shakespearean references in the album.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 09:03 AM

Yes that's right, my wife and I often use that phrase - I first heard it on a tape of an Albion Band gig in Denmark (I think), possible a radio broadcast from October 1983 time, a good line up of the band soon after Trevor Foster joined on drums.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 02:45 AM

Windows 11 in detail: Incremental upgrade spoilt by onerous system requirements and usability mis-steps
Here's the summary:

Windows 11 looks better than Windows 10 and is an incremental update which in the normal course of events users would welcome. The launch though is spoiled by system requirements which seem tone-deaf to today's component shortages and ecological challenges, and by changes to the core applications which have sufficient annoyances that some users will prefer to stick with Windows 10 for a while; it is supported until October 2025. Windows 11 will no doubt get better in most respects, though Microsoft's insistence on using its operating system as a vehicle for promoting its search and cloud services, where it gets in the way of usability, may be a persistent concern.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 06:11 AM

I'm sticking with win 8.1, though might now be prepared to reconsider 10
for any next full system reinstall..

Only because 8.1 will be unsupported sooner, and has already been made a near impossible chore for new install...

Lower cost bare bones PCs [sold without operating system]
probably won't qualify for 11 for some time to come...???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 07:53 AM

I’ve found Win-10, in particular the most recent revision, perfectly fine for my purposes - but then I don’t try to be ‘clever’ by outwitting the system and using outlandish software, I just use Win-10 and standard software packages in the way they’re intended to be used, for surfing, basic home-office, photo and video-editing, and recording purposes.

I’m praying that Win-11 won’t try to self install on my brand-new Win-10 Dell laptop - I have no intention of taking the free ‘upgrade’ until a few updates have happened and, hopefully, the gremlins have been sorted out.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:19 AM

Many updates have happened since the first insider release. I currently have it running on 2 HDDs, and no problems encountered so far, but proof will be updates or no updates according to whatever the crusties at MS see fit to allow on a 10 year old PC!!!

I'm trying to get my head round a method I found of installing Windows 11 from the command line, which involves having an empty hard drive connected, partitioned in a particular way, picking up from the installation ISO on a USB memory stick.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:24 AM

Ah, I also need to change the Master Boot Record (MBR) into a GUID partition table (GPT) disk???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:24 AM

”I'm trying to get my head round a method I found of installing Windows 11 from the command line, which involves having an empty hard drive connected, partitioned in a particular way, picking up from the installation ISO on a USB memory stick.”

Y’see, this is the kind of thing I was referring to when I spoke about ‘trying to be clever by outwitting the system and using outlandish software’! It’s akin to witchcraft to a simple guy Ike me! Another reason I want to avoid upgrading until they’ve made it foolproof. ;-)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:26 AM

A simple guy like me!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:42 AM

Try gparted

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:25 PM

punkfolkrocker wrote: Lower cost bare bones PCs [sold without operating system]
probably won't qualify for 11 for some time to come...???

(I'm never sure whether adding ??? to a statement like that is intended to turn it into a question. B3L does it too.)

Anyway, a PC without an existing copy of Win 10 does not qualify for Win 11. Theoretically you should buy a copy - £100 at least for a legal copy. It's usually cheaper to buy a PC with Windows installed than without an OS, or with Linux pre-installed.

If it's like Win 10 you can just install it and use it without activating it. But unlike Win 10, Win 11 requires you to have a MS account - you can't be a local user (or so I've read) - so that might be tricky.

I can't see what benefits Win 11 brings over Win 10. The hardware security features (the 'Secured-Core PC security baseline' in the Register piece) is worth having, but it's mostly in Win 10 already and depends on having up-to-date hardware, including TPM 2. Maybe Android support, when it arrives, if you have a MS tablet.

My wife's laptop works well on Win 10, and won't run Win 11 because it's too old. I'll ignore Win 11 until 2025. (It's a Thinkpad so it will probably still be working fine.)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:32 PM

I need reliable Windows for music software..

Now, just as some software developers seem to trust win 10 as sufficiently mature and stable
to discontinue updates and support for win 8.1,
along comes win 11... !!!???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 03:14 PM

pfr - I use Reaper and, occasionally, Audacity with Win-10 and they work absolutely fine. Never had a problem, other than those caused by my own ineptitude as a recording engineer! ;-)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 03:41 PM

"nyway, a PC without an existing copy of Win 10 does not qualify for Win 11."

No, I did a clean install of Windows 11 from Windows 7!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:00 PM

You can clean-install Windows on top of anything - or on a blank disk. But, according to Microsoft, to qualify for a free upgrade you must be running Windows 10.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:46 PM

You can be a local user in Windows 11.

You can download Windows 11 via Media Creation Tool via a non compatable PC.

That aside, this is the video I'm trying to get my head around.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 06:17 AM

I'm unfamiliar with the Windows commands (or for that matter any command line partitioning) but it didn't look that impossible to me, bonzo.

One thing I might question is what you do if you disk already had partitions but I'd probably use gparted live to set the partition table type and delete any existing partitions. I could even try to prepare the disk with new partitions that way. Going by his example, I think the first partition would need to be fat32 sized at 512Mb and the rest of the disk would be a ntfs partion. With a larger disk, you could opt to create more than one suitably sized partitions rather than one big one. Once created, the fat32 partition would need boot and esp flags set. I think Windows would assign drive letters which you would need to work out on booting to the ISO.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 03:42 PM

Interesting, thanks.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 09:42 PM

C|Net pushed this via email today:

Fix the 'this PC can't run Windows 11' error: 4 types of problems you could have
We found four ways to work around the pesky Windows 11 installation error. You may be able to get the download by enabling TPM and Secure Boot.

If you saw that your PC is not compatible with Windows 11, it may be because your system doesn't have two security settings turned on, Secure Boot and TPM 2.0. Here's how to do it.

Microsoft started a phased rollout of Windows 11 Tuesday. But you probably won't get Windows 11 just yet. If you're planning on downloading the new OS on your existing PC, you might run into some speed bumps due to the system requirements for the new operating system. (Here's how to download Windows 11 and how to create a Windows 11 install drive.)

If you've tried installing Windows 11 Insider Preview or using the Microsoft PC Health Check app and were greeted with an error message reading, "This PC can't run Windows 11," your system might not have two essential security settings turned on: Secure Boot and TPM 2.0. (Here are two other things you must do before downloading Windows 11.) Many modern computers and processing chips from Intel and AMD have these features built in, and both are now required for all machines running Windows 11.

Once you've downloaded the PC Health Check app, you can click Check Now to begin the scanning process. The app will tell you whether your computer will support Windows 11, or what it's missing, and you can click See All Results for more information.

If your machine is new enough to support both, enabling TPM (short for Trusted Platform Module) and Secure Boot is often quite easy. No special skills are needed, and you'll just be clicking through menus. If you've never heard the words "BIOS menu" you might feel out of your element, but don't be intimidated. With a little patience, any first-timer can do this.

Here's what you need to know.

Follow the rest of it at the link.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 02:53 AM

Microsoft themselves have published the registry change to enable Windows 11 on unsupported hardware:
Ways to install Windows 11

So if you really like the new user interface....

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 05:56 AM

Well strap me to a tree and call me Brenda!!!!! How nice of MS to tell us something we already know!!!!!

Downloaded a Win 11 iso at just over 4.1Gb which was accepted by a usb drive, but in reality probably just under 4Gb. But although set to boot from usb in the bios, it would not. However a mounted version has now booted, and happily went to the command screen at the install error with shift+f10.

So it. now sits at X:Sources awaiting diskpart.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 11:56 AM

This command

DISM /Get-WimInfo /WimFile:E:\sources\install.wim

told me that Windows 11 is at index 1 as in the video. I put the iso on a second usb but the install command didn't work.

There must be a command to apply the install.wim file from the mounted Sources folder instead of the iso.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 01:07 PM

"Didn't work" in what way? What did it do? Do you not get a message?

One possible problem is that if you had booted the iso it would have got wism.exe from that iso - i.e. it would be a Win 11 version of wism. As it is you're running a version from whatever version of Windows you are running. What is that?

You could try running dism from the iso:
E:/some_path/dism.exe /apply imge ...
You'd have to search for it to discover the path.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 01:52 PM

I always get the more robust "Pro" version of the operating systems. What do you know about that distinction?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 02:58 PM

Windows 11 Home vs Windows 11 Pro: here are the major differences

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 05:23 PM

I gave up in the end, it was the Pro official version I was trying to install from the command line.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 05:59 PM

"DISM can be used with older Windows image files although it cannot be used with images that are more recent than the installed version of DISM."

So I think my guess was correct. I suspect that DISM gets added to in every version of Windows. And my suggestion probably wouldn't work: I doubt if DISM.exe is a stand-alone executable; it looks complicated enough to require DLLs, which would have to come from Win 11 too.

A Windows 11 installation image, when booted, runs Windows 11, albeit a skeleton version.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 04:27 AM

Interesting thanks.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 08:05 AM

Just done a clean install of Windows 7 from DVD followed by a hybrid Windows 11 installation using a Windows 10 fileset with the Windows 11 install.esd so back to square one!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 04:58 PM

I tried something different - made a clone of the Windows 10 SSD on my main PC and installed it on a spare old PC of 2011 vintage, then downloaded the Windows 11 ISO from the MS download page. Once downloaded, I extracted the file/folder set, copied then opened in Notebook the appraiserres.dll file (situated in the Sources folder).

I then deleted all instances of TPM and UEFI and saved the copy back to the Sources folder.

Windows 11 then installed without deleting data and software!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 02:35 AM

Well I found that I did have a Win 11 compatible PC after all. I put a Win 10 disk from another PC in it and tried to upgrade. It took me a while but, for now, I do have a working Win 11 system.

I can’t say I’m impressed with the Windows Health Check which was downloaded following SRS’s link.

In the first instance rather than telling me what was wrong, it just gave me a vague message along the lines of “To see if this PC is compatible either check the specifications or ask the manufacturer”. I think that resolved when I updated the BIOS.

Having got the all clear I used the Assistant to install. This kept crashing at around 75%, The error number produced differing suggestions as to the problem and my solution came around in an odd way.

The first solution I looked at involved partitioning and I installed Aomei Partition Assistant. This software for some reason had a Win 11 compatibility checker. Running that one told me I was not compatible because of lack of DirectX 12 and something else.

I found the Nvidia GT210 graphics card I had (for my Linux preferences) been using would not support DirectX 12. Anyway I changed things round to use the onboard graphics, installed the AMD drivers and both checks then agreed I was ready to upgrade.

It went though this time.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 04:29 AM

Good for you! The crashing is a pain, happened to me when using the Assistant so I've done it manually ever since - possibly half a dozen times now. I found the most reliable way is to download the iso to the machine - it won't fit on a USB with a FAT32 file system, then extract to a new folder.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 07:50 AM

I forgot to mention that I was not bothered with the MS account nonsense, like you are when doing a clean install.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 07:57 AM

"This PC doesn't currently meet all the system requirements for Windows 11" message does not appear once Windows 11 has been installed on such a PC - it's currently installing a security update!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 07:32 PM

win 11 pro [oem] keys are already on sale for around $25..

..so if you dont qualify for free update, and are in a mad rush to 'upgrade'...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 04:14 AM

But you don't need a key if you have activated Windows 7 or 10, because a digital license is automatically generated. Presumabh the same for Windows 8 series as well.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 04:37 AM

Well I’ve already read enough Techie-shit in this thread to convince me to steer clear of Win 11, even though both Dell and MS keep telling me my new laptop is up-to-snuff for the free ‘upgrade’.

I don’t want to have to screw around the way you guys are doing, I just want a computer that does the straightforward, everyday stuff I tend to do, with a minimum of fuss and no farting around, crashes, work-around, yadda yadda. My laptop is there to serve me, not vice-versa.

Win 10 is chugging along on my m/c very happily and I understand how to use it. I’ll stick with it for a year or two until all the nonsense with 11 has been straightened out.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.