Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11 - (12!)

Subject: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 10:55 PM

Remember when we were told that Windows 10 was the final version and the rest would just be updates? I just got a notice in my email that they're introducing Windows 11. The note said nothing about it being a free update. We're probably going to end up paying through the nose for this one.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 12:05 AM

This has been breaking news since downloads of a dodgy beta leaked a few days ago.
I read a press release just now stating 11 would be free update
for 10 users..

Obviously needs fact checking...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: EBarnacle
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 12:09 AM

I don't know about the free part but I do know that some of my laptops will not be upgradeable.
They are also promising that Windows 10 will be supported into 2025. Of course, we know how well Microsoft keeps promises.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 12:13 AM

There is a newer version of Win10 coming out, and people who have the Home version of Win10 may be coming to the end of the support if they were an early adopter. They may need to upgrade. Pro versions are doing just fine.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 02:39 AM

I rely most on the news reports from cwnet. They seem to tell the story straight. Here's what they have to say:

https://www.cnet.com/how-to/windows-11-will-be-a-free-update-heres-how-youll-download-it-and-whether-youre-eligible/

I have one computer that had Windows 7 when I bought it, but it has been running Windows 10. I wonder if it will work with the upgrade.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 02:48 AM

The main thing that may affect people here is that it won't run on 32-bit processors - which will mainly be old (probably more than 10 years old) laptops and notebooks.

Also some old (non-uefi) 64-bit computers.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 03:49 AM

I kinda like getting new operating systems, especially if they have useful features and still run all the software. Most of the time, I've found new operating systems to be a nice way to refresh an old computer. I get a new Android operating system on my phone every year or so, and that's been fun.
So I'm hoping that this new Windows 11 will help me solve my biggest computer problem - how to find stuff on my computer. I'd like photos and documents and spreadsheets and recordings to be easy to find. And in all the years I've had computers (since 1988), that has been a perennial problem.
A previous version of Windows had libraries, and that seemed to be a pretty good idea - but it got confusing at times and now Windows 10 only half-heartedly supports it.
Guess I'll wait and see.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 04:56 AM

But surely you can open folders where ever you want them in Windows 10???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 05:32 AM

As my laptop's memory is close to full, I've been googling every few months or so to see if a new operating system may come out, towards buying a new computer; but, thinking it was not going to happen, bought a 60GB SDXC memory card last year, which I have been saving this year's photos on...it seems, probably along with many others, I now have a dilemma...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 06:45 AM

Do you have SSD drive? The increased speed in our 16 years old laptop is remarkable, and is now happily running Windows 10!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 07:01 AM

Yes, Bonzo - but only 120 GB (they expect us to use cloud storage, I think) with only 16.5 GB left (I think we are supposed to leave about that much for updates, etc.). Thus, I added the above 60 GB card.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 07:05 AM

...I also have everything stored on a couple of memory sticks in my bag, such that, if anything happened to my flat/laptop, all would not be lost.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Nick
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 07:09 AM

Joe - I'm a big fan of Everything and use it to find things on my machine rather than any windows search

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jos
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 07:13 AM

Just as long as you don't lose your bag ...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 07:15 AM

Jos - for that and something to go wrong with my flat/computer on the same outing/day would be extremely unlucky, yes?!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 08:27 AM

Having experienced serious problems updating to free Windows 10 when it was first released,
I rolled back to win 8.1..

Since then I am now running two PCs and two laptops on win 8.1.

Do I really want the aggravation of updating them to Windows 10,
so they can be then updated free to 11...???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 09:00 AM

I've checked and it seems Windows 11 will be free for those with Windows 10, as PFR says.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 11:01 AM

I ran the Windows 11 Health Check app (link in Joe's CNET post) on my wife's Thinkpad L430, a 'business' laptop which I though would run Win 11. It is perhaps 8 years old and has a 64-bit processor. (I recently put an SSD in it.)

The Health Check app said no, but didn't say why not. I suspected the reason is that Win 11 requires a TPM (Trusted Platform Module) version 2. I followed the procedure HERE to check that and discovered that the laptop has version 1.2

TPM v2 was released in 2014 but laptops with v1.2 may have been sold after that date.

So it looks like Windows 10 really will be the last version for many machines ;)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 11:17 AM

Joe- ".. - how to find stuff on my computer"

The absolutely best way I've found is a little program called
http://indexyourfiles

It very quickly uses a basic internal database to..ummm..index the files.

All I have to do is tell it which drives (or external drives) to search and give it a key word or phrase. Results are almost instant.

It has saved me many, many times... especially song titles or lyrics.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 11:46 AM

I don't bother but, if someone tends to remember roughly when they created folders and they have a lot, names can be started with year, month then day - e.g., 2021.06.25

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 03:21 PM

I 've downloaded the Win11 iso, and will try to do an upgrade from Win7 Enterprise on a 16 years old PC!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 03:52 PM

...and, if that works, Bonzo may move on to the Tasmanian tiger, closely followed by the dodo...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 04:04 PM

Bonz - is that the first version proper release ISO, or still a beta ?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 04:11 PM

I see what you mean!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 07:40 PM

https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/windows-11-home-and-pro

TechRadar in-depth report on what to expect from win 11..

Looks like it won't be released officially until much later this year...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 09:37 PM

C|Net is where I get a lot of my tech news also, Joe. I'll have to look into this - the main thing I DON'T want is an automatic upgrade to the new system. I'd like them to work out a few of the bugs first.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 10:43 PM

Well, they still aren't finished working out the bugs in WIN 10, SRS. Bothers me greatly, but I don't have the $$$ for an Apple, and I am not tech savvy enough for other OSs.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 11:35 PM

Apple is for zealots. :)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 05:55 AM

My computer guru advises "Basically the min spec for W11 is crazy over-the-top (I think there may be a climb-down from MS, but we'll see) as even high spec PCs don't qualify"
and
"as things stand, W11 is essentially a cash-grab for the PC industry (or so it seems to me) and a push by MS to require online accounts (a number of features are locked behind an arbitrary MS account requirement)."

Anyway Micro$oft say they're continuing support for Win 10 for a few years yet, so we can afford to wait and see what happens.

All the changes to the user interface seem another instance of Micro$oft's general policy of "if it ain't broke, mess about with it anyway, and if it confuses users that's their problem".

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 06:06 AM

well said, Richard - "if it ain't broke, mess about with it anyway, and if it confuses users that's their problem".

That also applies so Google's "upgrade" of Blogger to make it easier for folk who blog short, instant updates on their phones - look at my kid/dog/garden - hell for the rest of us who create larger articles with lots of text & pics.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 06:52 AM

Yes, Sandra - can't remember if it was early this year or late last, but recall the changes to Blogger required considerably different processes to edit, etc., which took me a while to fathom, frankly.

That said, I think it is a good choice for anyone who wishes for their own site on the web - free (unlike some hosts that are only free for a limited number of visits) and if, unlike me, you wish to go pro and add ads, it still seems easy to do.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 07:44 AM

Did you mean TPM 2.0 rather than 2.1 above, Dave.

I just had a look at what it would mean to me (not that I want Windows on our main PCs).

My (I guess about 5 or 6 year old) ASUS laptop has TPM 2.0.

I’ve only looked at my own PC (Gigabyte 970A-DS3P BIOS dated in 2015) but all 3 PCs in regular use here are of similar AMD970 chipset build and age. Mine doesn’t have TPM support but should have a socket on the motherboard to take a TPM module. Gigabyte offer a few modules for their motherboards but I don’t think I’d find a 2.0 one for mine.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 08:33 AM

The Windows 11 ISO is 4,760,306kb, so it won't burn to a DVD and it won't copy to a FAT32 formatted USB. So you either need ISO shrink software or format a USB drive to NTFS!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 08:49 AM

A dual layer DVD?

Perhaps when all else fails, there is always the good old dd found as std on most Linux systems but be warned it will just take what you tell it to do without warning.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 09:37 AM

Oh, and, it is mentioned in my link but balena Ethcher is a pretty good cross platform (Linux, Windows and Mac) tool for getting ISOs onto USB drives.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 09:56 AM

Jon Freeman wrote: Did you mean TPM 2.0 rather than 2.1 above, Dave.

That puzzled me! A sans font and proportional spacing probably contributed to your question ;)

I've looked into it further. It seems MS are saying you need an 8th Generation processor to run Windows 11. Who on earth knows what generation their processor is? Anyway after a lot googling I discovered that the Thinkpad is 3rd Generation and that 8th Generation CPUs were introduced in 2017; see here. As Richard said, that requirement might be relaxed (I think they might drop it to 7th gen, which was the first processor that only supports Win 10) but I don't see the requirement for TPM 2 changing.

I think this new version of Windows is mainly driven by Microsoft's strategy of converging traditional desktops/laptops and touch/mobile devices. Also, I suspect, to simplify the code by dropping stuff inherited from earlier versions - like 32-bit processors. (Though it'll still run 32-bit programs, so Simple Piano should still work :)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 10:22 AM

LOL Dave. 2.1 was my misreading of your post which just gives version 2.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 11:04 AM

At a quick attempt, CPU generation seems to me to be maker dependent. New AMD Ryzen processors appear to be at generation 4 but in Intel terms, generation 4 could take us back to 2013,

I think...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 11:19 AM

Looks like it will soon be time for another crash course in computing.

As a related topic, I was setting up a new tablet last week and the Google/Android part asked for my registered FIDO (I use Yubico) that I've used with full-sized computers for several years now. The tablet had only the micro USB plug, so I used another authentication method and got a code from my phone Authenticator. I ended up shopping around and picking up a converter female USB down to the male micro USB and the class C for phones and tablets. This isn't the first small device to ask for this, and I've been meaning to find a converter.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 11:31 AM

Jon: I should have said Intel Generation 8. Windows 11 requires "8th Gen Intel Core or 2nd Gen AMD Ryzen".

It doesn't mention other processor manufacturers. IBM for example make their POWER9 cpu as used in the powerful, and expensive, Talos II.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 11:33 AM

Registered Fido...???

What.. the world is getting weirder..

.. we need dog licences to run a computer now...!!!???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 11:57 AM

Two-factor authentication. Yubico. There is one on my keychain in my pocket. They're pretty durable. I used it on my computer at work and at home starting several years ago. Fast IDentity Online

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 12:51 PM

refresh... hoping Joe Offer saw my answer to his local search problem

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 12:55 PM

Thanks Dave. That CPU spec would count everything here out. I'm pretty sure my laptop is an Intel (apparently 6th generation) Skylake, and the PCs are pre AMD socket 4 Ryzen.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 01:37 PM

SRS; Do the Yubico key and the tablet have NFC?

This Google Pixel C tablet doesn't, despite it being a top-end device in its day. Pixel phones generally do. Perhaps it's because the main use is probably e-payments and peope don't use tablets to pay for things.

This is all related to the requirement for TPM chips in Windows 11 - secure authentication of the user and holding 2FA keys.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 02:41 PM

We can only hope that Microsoft are remembering to provide a stable and reliable operating system for musicians and graphics artists.

It's only in the last year or so that major music software developers are forcing upgrades that are only supported on win 10...

That will be the win 10 that many musicians including myself have rejected as too unstable...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 01:02 AM

Win 11 pisses off consumers

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: leeneia
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 12:45 PM

I have a big desk with two computers. One is old and runs on Windows 7. It is not connected to the Internet but does a beautiful job with MIDI software and Noteworthy Composer. The other is on Windows 10 and handles all our online activities.

When I want to transfer data between computers, I use a thumbdrive.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 02:15 PM

do you have malware protection on either of your computers?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 03:11 PM

There is a transfer cable with software built into it (the big end is basically a drive with the installed software). I also have a non-Internet computer on the next desk in my office, and I run the transfer cable between the two. The fat end is on the Internet connected computer. Anyway, the software is installed on both (EasySuite) and you open it on both devices then get the local and remote screen on both. I drag stuff back and forth between the two regularly (the old computer has the newer computer software that I can't replace without subscribing for Adobe monthly service, so I do a lot of my photo and design work there, and drag the results into the newer computer.) Radio Shack makes a good one that I got on sale from them a couple of years ago. I see that Amazon sells Radio Shack's cable much cheaper.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jul 21 - 11:30 PM

Windows 11 reminds the PC ecosystem of the value of major releases

After years of anonymous Windows tweaks, Microsoft's big reveal celebrates the PC at a time when new Mac features have become largely about tying it more tightly into the rest of Apple's products and services.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jul 21 - 08:47 AM

"Yes, Bonzo - but only 120 GB (they expect us to use cloud storage, I think) with only 16.5 GB left (I think we are supposed to leave about that much for updates, etc.). Thus, I added the above 60 GB card."

No way will I entrust my data to cloud storage. I have a 500gb ssd and 500HDD in my Lenovo Thinkcentre.

I can't remember if I put this elsewhere, but 2 weeks ago I ran the MS utility to see if my Thinkcentre can run Windows 11. It told me that "secure boot" was not enabled - easily remedied in bios..........but then on restart I got "Error 1962: No operating system found. Boot sequence will automatically repeat." So Lenovo owners beware!

After many frustrating hours of trying to solve the problem using various "fixes" I came accross a fix that worked. All that was necessary was a couple of tweaks to the start up bios - enable CSM, and in Boot Priority change Legacy First to UEFI First, whatever that does. Then on startup I got the endless circle followed by the magic words "Getting Devices Ready" - home and dry!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jul 21 - 07:57 AM

An invitation to upgrade to Windows 11 appeared on my work PC today!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 20 Jul 21 - 02:29 AM

Windows 11: What we like and don't like about Microsoft's operating system so far

Upgrade from Windows 10 is free. Windows 10 will be supported until October 14, 2025.

"Even Windows backup is still there in Control Panel, under the mysterious label "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)." This is the same as on Windows 10, though worth mentioning here, since unlike the strongly promoted File History in the Settings applet, this old-style backup actually is a full backup of the system that can be saved to a drive and taken offline – just the thing in these days of ransomware."

I'm not sure this is correct. When my wife's machine was upgraded to Win 10 I continued to use 'Win 7 backup' (in addition to File History) to backup monthly to a local drive. But after a recent reinstall it said that it was only capable of restoring backups but not making new ones. Anybody using 'Win 7 backup' to a local disk on Win 10?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Ed.
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 12:13 PM

Anybody using 'Win 7 backup' to a local disk on Win 10?

Dave,

See my Windows Backup queries thread.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 01:58 PM

microsoft states a great deal of mumbo jumbo about requirements for upgrading to Windows 11. I shall wait for a preactivated version first!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 05:40 PM

Installed Windows 11 on 8 year old PC - TPM bypassed!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 21 - 02:03 AM

I don't like the start menu in the middle of the screen - lunacy!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jul 21 - 10:29 AM

I have Windows 7 backup set to run weekly on my Win10 machine. There really isn't another Windows option. Long gone are the days of Norton Ghost. . .

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jul 21 - 02:43 AM

Very annoying that Windows 11 does not allow installation of my TP-link 722N wifi adaptor, and that it will not allow you to see the characters when putting in the router password.

Taskbar is now aligned left and looks better.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jul 21 - 08:04 AM

I don't mean the Taskbar, I mean the Start Menu!! Unfortunately the video bit of the motherboard is on the blink as it turns very bright after a couple of hours.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jul 21 - 05:06 AM

I also installed the beta version on a 12 year old desktop, that is a beta version doesn't check for the TPM module and secure boot!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jul 21 - 04:19 PM

They certainly lied about Windows 11, I have no option to roll back to Windows 10!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jul 21 - 07:49 AM

It seems to be a bug in latest version. Oddly once the TPM and secure boot checks are jumped by a Windows 10 substitute appraiserres-dll file, no further checks are made from updates....................so far!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 21 - 08:30 AM

New software is not a cure for the world wide hack.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jul 21 - 08:38 AM

Good fun though!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jul 21 - 01:45 AM

Just messing around with hard discs - an Insider version of Windows 11 (with tmp and secure boot search removed) will install over Windows 7 provided that you do a clean install - so there's no going back of course!

Updates do not include tmp and secure boot search so far, but versions "amended" for older machines will slways be there!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 28 Jul 21 - 02:30 AM

Google says "Did you mean: tpm and secure boot?"

I wouldn't update an old machine to Win 11 if it lacked 'necessary' hardware features - except in play. MS could release an update which requires these features at any time. Requiring biometric authentication, perhaps. Maybe in 2025 when Win 10 stops being updated.

Kasperski was warning the other day of fake Win 11 updates. Presumably, unlike the eventual production updates, these are unsigned. MS might use features of TPM v2 to stop that once Win 11 is released.

I hope that manufacturers continue to sell machines on which you can turn secure boot off, or at least run a non-Microsoft OS. It's cheaper to buy a Lenovo PC with Windows installed and overwrite it with Linux than buying a PC with no OS.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 11:12 PM

Will the new Install withhold making changes if it detects the hardware is not up to minimum requirements, or is it User's responsibility not to hit the 'go' button if User has doubts?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 02:07 AM

I expect that the official, released, version will not install.

Windows 10 wouldn't install if your processor lacked certain features, like PAE and NX.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 02:26 AM

For fun last night I cloned the hard disc on my Lenovo Thinkcentre, then fired up the clone (HDD) in an ex work pc at least 8 years old. I then installed Windows 11 which contained a dll file from Winfows 10 to bypass tpm and secure boot check. All took just under 3 hours.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 07:38 AM

Installation build was 22000.65, which is now updating to build 22000.100

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 09:38 AM

More fun - take a Windows 10 ISO and extract. Look in the Sources folder and delete the large file install.esd. Then copy and replace the remainder of the files to a Windows 11 Sources folder. Now you can install Windows 11 on any PC!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 10:47 AM

Clean install, corrected start menu to left, corrected display settings and connected to internet in 75 minutes - 12 year old PC with no additional software responding reasonably fast!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Aug 21 - 01:09 AM

Parking this here

These Old-School Internet Browsers Are Like Real-Life Time Machines
A new tool lets you experience the glory—and embarrassment—of the internet of yore

"The tool is called oldweb.today, and it’s the brainchild of Ilya Kreymer and Dragan Espenschied. It “captures the web-browsing experience before the dawn of the new millennium,” writes Murphy—a more innocent time when design was simpler, pages took longer to load and things like webrings and dial-up still existed."

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Aug 21 - 04:56 AM

That got me wondering whether dial up had really gone completely.

As far as I can make out, Freeola was possibly the last UK company offering it. They closed their service in January 2019. Going by this page, a few companies still offer dial up in the US. I've not looked at other countries but it may also still be on offer elsewhere in the world.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 08:45 AM

Fired up a very old PC- pre 2005 I'd wager, and I have the dreaded black screen! Data cable problem perhaps?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 21 - 09:27 AM

Meanwhile..

My two cheap durable workhorse Chromebooks are perfectly adequate for net surfing and downloading...

Unfortunately built in obsolescence means they will no longer be supported and updated by google after sometime next year.
So I might need to try converting them to Linux...???

Mine are about 5 or 6 years old, which is apparently approx the life span for formal support.

Remeber this if temted by sales bargains.
First google the year of manufacture, to confirm how many years support ane left.


Android phones only get at best two scheduled Android updates of improved security and new functions,
before being abandoned by manufacturers..

.. and my experience is an updated Android version can bugger the speed and efficiency of a previously good device...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 01:23 AM

Fixed the old PC built in 2006 - the Ram cards holding a mighty 2 Gb just needed reseating, then after correcting the boot order Windows 7 fired up! I tried upgrading to Windows 10 using the Media Creation Tool but it detected something missing so would not even download the files.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 11:05 AM

Going the 32bit route does enable installation of Windows 10 on this ancient PC!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Aug 21 - 06:03 AM

The 2006 PC is now running 32bit Windows 10 - got stuck on OOBELOCAL whatever that is, but found a command line fix on youtube! However, as would be expected, it runs very slowly!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 07 Aug 21 - 07:07 AM

I installed 32 bit Win 10 on a 2010 PC when it came out. It's a 64 bit machine, but had so little memory I thought it wasn't worth using 64 bit Windows. It kept failing - problems with the graphics drivers. So I tried 64 bit Win 10 and it was fine. I concluded that the 32 bit drivers were not being updated, or not being tested enough.

It's dual-boot and normally runs Linux. I only use Win 10 for testing addons in Edge and updating my car's Satnav - the updater is Windows only. It's very slow to load (and update) but OK once it's running.

I installed WSL on it - Ubuntu - but couldn't see what use it was. I could run my ffmpeg scripts on it for example, but I can't think why I would.

The processor too old for Win 11.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Aug 21 - 11:27 AM

I just can't see how microsoft can be allowed to instantly junk millions of computers on this planet. I am sure that a hacked Windows 11 for 32bit will surface - I would be very surprised if it doesn't, there are some very clever hackers out there!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Aug 21 - 02:20 PM

Dave, memory is cheap and should be an easy swap of old cards for new in that 2010 machine.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Aug 21 - 03:13 AM

It has 4GB memory, which does not require a 64-bit OS. So I initially installed 32 bit Win 10, which is smaller. But, as I said, it didn't work well.

It's mainly a spare in case my main Linux box fails. I very rarely fire up Windows on it - once in 6 months perhaps. It's not activated.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Aug 21 - 08:02 AM

Well the final outcome on my 2006 PC is that Windows 10 32 bit stays. I tried to clean install 64bit via the Media Creation Tool but it refused. I still think microsoft do not want folks to have old computers - so to microsoft I say:

I hope you never prosper
And I hope you always fail;
At everything you venture
I hope you n'er do well;
And the very ground you walk upon -
May the grass refuse to grow.....................

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Aug 21 - 08:41 AM

Does it actually have a 64 bit processor?

Look in Explorer, right click This PC, Properties

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 08 Aug 21 - 08:43 AM

32 bit support is getting rarer on Linux desktop PC distributions too. My usual desktop choice (OpenSuse) dropped it a while back for their "Leap" versions (it still exists on the rolling release Tumbleweed). I read the other day that even Xubuntu, one of the low resource variants of Ubuntu dropped it this year.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 21 - 08:08 AM

Found a 2017 version of Windows 10, so will make a bootable ISO and see if it will clean install on my 2006 PC!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Aug 21 - 05:42 AM

Oh dear, the power supply has blown on the 2006 PC, so I've called it a day on that one - and being an IDE motherboard, not worth spending any money on it.

I transferred its HDD containing 32bit Windows 10 to another PC which booted up OK. I used the Media Creation Tool to download a 64bit version of Windows 10 to a USB drive from which installation was started. All was fine for a while but after a reboot it stuck on a black screen with flashing cursor. Did the same on 2 further attempts, but oddly after putting a Windows 7 Enterprise disc in the dvd drive and rebooting, it gave a blue screen with "just a minute" and after a while showed set up questions - home and dry!!

It's now doing updates and will be a clean spare drive.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Aug 21 - 10:03 AM

Interesting find - I was looking for a wifi usb adaptor in the Argos catalogue and noticed one which supported USB 3.0. Once installed in a USB 3.0 port, maximum torrent download speed increased from 5.2MB per sec to 10.1MB per sec!! However max upload speed only increased from 3.6MB to 3.9MB per sec.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 21 - 05:09 PM

Discovered that you can install Windows 11 direct from Windows 7. Interestingly though, when installing from USB, you need to remove the usb at the first reboot, otherwise it falls into a loop back to the beginning of the installation.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 02:43 AM

In my experience if you're clean-installing an OS from USB (or DVD) it doesn't matter what OS(es) are on the HDD: they don't run. It only matters if the installer accesses the old OS for some reason. Perhaps your Win 11 installer looks for Win 10, doesn't find it, and just treats Win 7 as 'used disc space'.

If your machine is set to boot first from USB (boot sequence in BIOS) then on first-reboot the machine will do that unless installer overrides it to boot from HDD. I don't know how Windows installers do that - maybe under UEFI on new machines it can issue a 'reboot from HDD' command. Perhaps Win 11 relies on that feature, but your machine doesn't have it.

I've read that MS have said that if you have Win 11 on 'unsupported hardware' it won't get updates.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 06:43 AM

I have installed a number of Windows 11 versions and they all get updates OK

Yes I found that after setting PC to boot first from USB, it does appear to be overridden to boot from HDD - I don't have SDD in my 10 year old PC!

No versions of Windows 11 have allowed roll back to previous version for some reason!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 10:31 AM

I have two USB-3 ports I hadn't been using, partly because I needed adapters for to use the USB-C ports. Now I have the adapters but don't have anything that needs connecting right now. :)

I haven't even considered installing 11 yet, I'll watch your results for a while.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 11:58 AM

It seems the best way of installing from USB is not to change the boot order but to use whatever key selects the boot device, which depends on the computer.
See here.
I don't think using a pre-UEFI (i.e. BIOS) machine would be different, though Win 11 claims to need UEFI.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 12:01 PM

I have just 2 USB-3 ports, one is used for a USB-3 wifi adapter which incidentally almost trebled my max download speed.

Just tried installing the same Windows 11 from its iso burnt to DVD, which didn't work.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 12:05 PM

The Win 11 iso is too big for a standard DVD. You have a dual-layer one?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 12:31 PM

The one I used was 3.9Gb, so probably messed with!

I'm using old HDDs which don't matter. If doing this on a main PC, I would advise making a clone of the hard disk first, as installation on a PC which doesn't meet hardware requirements does not present the option to restore the previous version.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Sep 21 - 06:26 PM

Consider a PC which meets MS hardware requirements and is upgraded to Windows 11 via the media creation tool. The hard disk is then cloned and installed in a PC which does not meet Windows 11 hardware requirements - there is a good chance that it will boot up and run ok.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 03:30 AM

I doubt it. I would expect the installer to configure Windows for the particular machine - board chipset, architecture, type of processor, graphics, etc. It might work if the machines are identical - which obviously wouldn't be true if one met the MS spec and one didn't. You might have to clone the disk-ID too - if that's possible. Try it.

I see that MS are now saying that if you run Win 11 on unsupported hardware you're not entitled to updates, not that you won't get them.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 04:10 AM

Typical usaian dollar obsession!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 04:50 AM

No, I withdraw last post, wrong on this instance because windows upgrades are free.

Frankly I don't care if I don't get updates after windows 11 is released, and I'm sure that the majority of users don't care either!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 07:56 AM

The biggest up and coming driver for electronic waste must surely be Microsoft's intention to push the Windows 11 operating system onto consumers in the very near future. This new system has mandatory minimum system requirements that will render most current PCs and laptops obsolete.

There is no valid technical reason why existing hardware should not be able be able to run "windows 11" other than the fact that Microsoft plans to build-in 'incompatibility' with current hardware. After all it's only an operating system - which does not add any real value to the apps it hosts.

This is pure greed and is totally irresponsible bearing in mind what Microsoft (and Apple) have already done to the planet and the monopoly they hold in the tech sector.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 08:01 AM

MS is saying that those registry hacks won't work in the future. However, I'm pretty sure that a smart person (or at least smarter than MS which isn't really all that difficult) will be able to come up with a different hack, followed by another one, and so on... So I wouldn't worry too much if you want to run Win 11 on something that MS deemed "not secure enough". That statement must be the joke of the year!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 08:14 AM

Is Win 10 stable and reliable enough to reconsider using yet...???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Sep 21 - 08:39 AM

Never given me any problems

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 08:21 AM

There is apparently a way of upgrading Windows 10 pro to Windows Enterprise, which will be supported by MS for 10 years.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 10:37 AM

The Win 11 iso is too big for a standard DVD. You have a dual-layer one?

Reading that reminded me of the laptop I bought circa 1996, a friend had the Windows 95 software (nothing to keep us from sharing back then) that we installed. It took a stack of about 25 3.5" floppy disks and a couple of hours to load it all.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Sep 21 - 01:18 PM

Been there, got the T shirt!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 03:50 PM

"There is apparently a way of upgrading Windows 10 pro to Windows Enterprise, which will be supported by MS for 10 years"

Didn't work properly and activation was lost, but better to have tripped than never danced at all!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 04:13 PM

Ashley Hutchings?

By Windows Enterprise did you mean Windows LTSC?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 04:31 AM

Ashley Hutchings? What do you mean?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 05:02 AM

"Better to have tripped than never danced at all" occurs in the chorus of Dancing Under the Rose by Ashley Hutchings. It's on his LP By Gloucester Docks I Sat Down and Wept, sung by Polly Bolton I think.

Maybe it's a quote from somewhere else. There are several Shakespearean references in the album.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 09:03 AM

Yes that's right, my wife and I often use that phrase - I first heard it on a tape of an Albion Band gig in Denmark (I think), possible a radio broadcast from October 1983 time, a good line up of the band soon after Trevor Foster joined on drums.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 02:45 AM

Windows 11 in detail: Incremental upgrade spoilt by onerous system requirements and usability mis-steps
Here's the summary:

Windows 11 looks better than Windows 10 and is an incremental update which in the normal course of events users would welcome. The launch though is spoiled by system requirements which seem tone-deaf to today's component shortages and ecological challenges, and by changes to the core applications which have sufficient annoyances that some users will prefer to stick with Windows 10 for a while; it is supported until October 2025. Windows 11 will no doubt get better in most respects, though Microsoft's insistence on using its operating system as a vehicle for promoting its search and cloud services, where it gets in the way of usability, may be a persistent concern.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 06:11 AM

I'm sticking with win 8.1, though might now be prepared to reconsider 10
for any next full system reinstall..

Only because 8.1 will be unsupported sooner, and has already been made a near impossible chore for new install...

Lower cost bare bones PCs [sold without operating system]
probably won't qualify for 11 for some time to come...???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 07:53 AM

I’ve found Win-10, in particular the most recent revision, perfectly fine for my purposes - but then I don’t try to be ‘clever’ by outwitting the system and using outlandish software, I just use Win-10 and standard software packages in the way they’re intended to be used, for surfing, basic home-office, photo and video-editing, and recording purposes.

I’m praying that Win-11 won’t try to self install on my brand-new Win-10 Dell laptop - I have no intention of taking the free ‘upgrade’ until a few updates have happened and, hopefully, the gremlins have been sorted out.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:19 AM

Many updates have happened since the first insider release. I currently have it running on 2 HDDs, and no problems encountered so far, but proof will be updates or no updates according to whatever the crusties at MS see fit to allow on a 10 year old PC!!!

I'm trying to get my head round a method I found of installing Windows 11 from the command line, which involves having an empty hard drive connected, partitioned in a particular way, picking up from the installation ISO on a USB memory stick.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:24 AM

Ah, I also need to change the Master Boot Record (MBR) into a GUID partition table (GPT) disk???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:24 AM

”I'm trying to get my head round a method I found of installing Windows 11 from the command line, which involves having an empty hard drive connected, partitioned in a particular way, picking up from the installation ISO on a USB memory stick.”

Y’see, this is the kind of thing I was referring to when I spoke about ‘trying to be clever by outwitting the system and using outlandish software’! It’s akin to witchcraft to a simple guy Ike me! Another reason I want to avoid upgrading until they’ve made it foolproof. ;-)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:26 AM

A simple guy like me!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:42 AM

Try gparted

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:25 PM

punkfolkrocker wrote: Lower cost bare bones PCs [sold without operating system]
probably won't qualify for 11 for some time to come...???

(I'm never sure whether adding ??? to a statement like that is intended to turn it into a question. B3L does it too.)

Anyway, a PC without an existing copy of Win 10 does not qualify for Win 11. Theoretically you should buy a copy - £100 at least for a legal copy. It's usually cheaper to buy a PC with Windows installed than without an OS, or with Linux pre-installed.

If it's like Win 10 you can just install it and use it without activating it. But unlike Win 10, Win 11 requires you to have a MS account - you can't be a local user (or so I've read) - so that might be tricky.

I can't see what benefits Win 11 brings over Win 10. The hardware security features (the 'Secured-Core PC security baseline' in the Register piece) is worth having, but it's mostly in Win 10 already and depends on having up-to-date hardware, including TPM 2. Maybe Android support, when it arrives, if you have a MS tablet.

My wife's laptop works well on Win 10, and won't run Win 11 because it's too old. I'll ignore Win 11 until 2025. (It's a Thinkpad so it will probably still be working fine.)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:32 PM

I need reliable Windows for music software..

Now, just as some software developers seem to trust win 10 as sufficiently mature and stable
to discontinue updates and support for win 8.1,
along comes win 11... !!!???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 03:14 PM

pfr - I use Reaper and, occasionally, Audacity with Win-10 and they work absolutely fine. Never had a problem, other than those caused by my own ineptitude as a recording engineer! ;-)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 03:41 PM

"nyway, a PC without an existing copy of Win 10 does not qualify for Win 11."

No, I did a clean install of Windows 11 from Windows 7!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:00 PM

You can clean-install Windows on top of anything - or on a blank disk. But, according to Microsoft, to qualify for a free upgrade you must be running Windows 10.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:46 PM

You can be a local user in Windows 11.

You can download Windows 11 via Media Creation Tool via a non compatable PC.

That aside, this is the video I'm trying to get my head around.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 06:17 AM

I'm unfamiliar with the Windows commands (or for that matter any command line partitioning) but it didn't look that impossible to me, bonzo.

One thing I might question is what you do if you disk already had partitions but I'd probably use gparted live to set the partition table type and delete any existing partitions. I could even try to prepare the disk with new partitions that way. Going by his example, I think the first partition would need to be fat32 sized at 512Mb and the rest of the disk would be a ntfs partion. With a larger disk, you could opt to create more than one suitably sized partitions rather than one big one. Once created, the fat32 partition would need boot and esp flags set. I think Windows would assign drive letters which you would need to work out on booting to the ISO.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 03:42 PM

Interesting, thanks.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Oct 21 - 09:42 PM

C|Net pushed this via email today:

Fix the 'this PC can't run Windows 11' error: 4 types of problems you could have
We found four ways to work around the pesky Windows 11 installation error. You may be able to get the download by enabling TPM and Secure Boot.

If you saw that your PC is not compatible with Windows 11, it may be because your system doesn't have two security settings turned on, Secure Boot and TPM 2.0. Here's how to do it.

Microsoft started a phased rollout of Windows 11 Tuesday. But you probably won't get Windows 11 just yet. If you're planning on downloading the new OS on your existing PC, you might run into some speed bumps due to the system requirements for the new operating system. (Here's how to download Windows 11 and how to create a Windows 11 install drive.)

If you've tried installing Windows 11 Insider Preview or using the Microsoft PC Health Check app and were greeted with an error message reading, "This PC can't run Windows 11," your system might not have two essential security settings turned on: Secure Boot and TPM 2.0. (Here are two other things you must do before downloading Windows 11.) Many modern computers and processing chips from Intel and AMD have these features built in, and both are now required for all machines running Windows 11.

Once you've downloaded the PC Health Check app, you can click Check Now to begin the scanning process. The app will tell you whether your computer will support Windows 11, or what it's missing, and you can click See All Results for more information.

If your machine is new enough to support both, enabling TPM (short for Trusted Platform Module) and Secure Boot is often quite easy. No special skills are needed, and you'll just be clicking through menus. If you've never heard the words "BIOS menu" you might feel out of your element, but don't be intimidated. With a little patience, any first-timer can do this.

Here's what you need to know.

Follow the rest of it at the link.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 02:53 AM

Microsoft themselves have published the registry change to enable Windows 11 on unsupported hardware:
Ways to install Windows 11

So if you really like the new user interface....

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 05:56 AM

Well strap me to a tree and call me Brenda!!!!! How nice of MS to tell us something we already know!!!!!

Downloaded a Win 11 iso at just over 4.1Gb which was accepted by a usb drive, but in reality probably just under 4Gb. But although set to boot from usb in the bios, it would not. However a mounted version has now booted, and happily went to the command screen at the install error with shift+f10.

So it. now sits at X:Sources awaiting diskpart.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 11:56 AM

This command

DISM /Get-WimInfo /WimFile:E:\sources\install.wim

told me that Windows 11 is at index 1 as in the video. I put the iso on a second usb but the install command didn't work.

There must be a command to apply the install.wim file from the mounted Sources folder instead of the iso.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 01:07 PM

"Didn't work" in what way? What did it do? Do you not get a message?

One possible problem is that if you had booted the iso it would have got wism.exe from that iso - i.e. it would be a Win 11 version of wism. As it is you're running a version from whatever version of Windows you are running. What is that?

You could try running dism from the iso:
E:/some_path/dism.exe /apply imge ...
You'd have to search for it to discover the path.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 01:52 PM

I always get the more robust "Pro" version of the operating systems. What do you know about that distinction?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 02:58 PM

Windows 11 Home vs Windows 11 Pro: here are the major differences

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 05:23 PM

I gave up in the end, it was the Pro official version I was trying to install from the command line.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 08 Oct 21 - 05:59 PM

"DISM can be used with older Windows image files although it cannot be used with images that are more recent than the installed version of DISM."

So I think my guess was correct. I suspect that DISM gets added to in every version of Windows. And my suggestion probably wouldn't work: I doubt if DISM.exe is a stand-alone executable; it looks complicated enough to require DLLs, which would have to come from Win 11 too.

A Windows 11 installation image, when booted, runs Windows 11, albeit a skeleton version.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 04:27 AM

Interesting thanks.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 08:05 AM

Just done a clean install of Windows 7 from DVD followed by a hybrid Windows 11 installation using a Windows 10 fileset with the Windows 11 install.esd so back to square one!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 21 - 04:58 PM

I tried something different - made a clone of the Windows 10 SSD on my main PC and installed it on a spare old PC of 2011 vintage, then downloaded the Windows 11 ISO from the MS download page. Once downloaded, I extracted the file/folder set, copied then opened in Notebook the appraiserres.dll file (situated in the Sources folder).

I then deleted all instances of TPM and UEFI and saved the copy back to the Sources folder.

Windows 11 then installed without deleting data and software!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 02:35 AM

Well I found that I did have a Win 11 compatible PC after all. I put a Win 10 disk from another PC in it and tried to upgrade. It took me a while but, for now, I do have a working Win 11 system.

I can’t say I’m impressed with the Windows Health Check which was downloaded following SRS’s link.

In the first instance rather than telling me what was wrong, it just gave me a vague message along the lines of “To see if this PC is compatible either check the specifications or ask the manufacturer”. I think that resolved when I updated the BIOS.

Having got the all clear I used the Assistant to install. This kept crashing at around 75%, The error number produced differing suggestions as to the problem and my solution came around in an odd way.

The first solution I looked at involved partitioning and I installed Aomei Partition Assistant. This software for some reason had a Win 11 compatibility checker. Running that one told me I was not compatible because of lack of DirectX 12 and something else.

I found the Nvidia GT210 graphics card I had (for my Linux preferences) been using would not support DirectX 12. Anyway I changed things round to use the onboard graphics, installed the AMD drivers and both checks then agreed I was ready to upgrade.

It went though this time.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 04:29 AM

Good for you! The crashing is a pain, happened to me when using the Assistant so I've done it manually ever since - possibly half a dozen times now. I found the most reliable way is to download the iso to the machine - it won't fit on a USB with a FAT32 file system, then extract to a new folder.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 07:50 AM

I forgot to mention that I was not bothered with the MS account nonsense, like you are when doing a clean install.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 07:57 AM

"This PC doesn't currently meet all the system requirements for Windows 11" message does not appear once Windows 11 has been installed on such a PC - it's currently installing a security update!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 21 - 07:32 PM

win 11 pro [oem] keys are already on sale for around $25..

..so if you dont qualify for free update, and are in a mad rush to 'upgrade'...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 04:14 AM

But you don't need a key if you have activated Windows 7 or 10, because a digital license is automatically generated. Presumabh the same for Windows 8 series as well.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 04:37 AM

Well I’ve already read enough Techie-shit in this thread to convince me to steer clear of Win 11, even though both Dell and MS keep telling me my new laptop is up-to-snuff for the free ‘upgrade’.

I don’t want to have to screw around the way you guys are doing, I just want a computer that does the straightforward, everyday stuff I tend to do, with a minimum of fuss and no farting around, crashes, work-around, yadda yadda. My laptop is there to serve me, not vice-versa.

Win 10 is chugging along on my m/c very happily and I understand how to use it. I’ll stick with it for a year or two until all the nonsense with 11 has been straightened out.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 05:22 AM

Win 11 is just a curiosity thing to me BWM. Windows isn't even my main operating system. Where I want stability and longer runs, generally speaking (I can still have breakdowns), I get that. At the moment one of my Raspberry Pis has been running 313 days since last rebooted and my OpenSuse server PC 202 days.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 06:18 AM

Backwoodsman wrote: Well I’ve already read enough in this thread to convince me to steer clear of Win 11...

It's clear from all the reviews that Windows 11 is not a major change from Windows 10; it could have been called Windows 10.1. The main visible change is to the user interface - the start menu, etc. The main benefits are invisible: improved hardware-enforced security, if your computer is new enough.

If my wife's Windows 10 laptop met the hardware requirement I would upgrade it - not immediately, but in a few months time. It doesn't, so Windows 10 is good until 2025.

Aside from all the non-standard methods of installing it, I am unclear from what I read whether an upgrade will require you to have a Microsoft account if you don't already. The Home vs Pro page I posted says that it's a requirement for Home but not Pro. A clean install doesn't require it - you can just ignore the request, the same as Windows 10. But an upgrade?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 07:03 AM

An upgrade doesn't require it either, both from Windows 7 and 10. Just click on local account.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 10:45 AM

Every time I add an upgrade like that it deletes my MS Win7 Solitaire games, the last free ones that are worth playing. No ads. (I have it stored and can load it back, but it's a nuisance.)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 03:58 PM

You could run these games under Hyper-V in Windows 10. But I've no idea whether, if you then upgraded to Windows 11, it would leave your Hyper-V installation alone.

It ought to. I've not used Hyper-V but I run a slide scanner under Windows 7 in a virtual machine (vbox) under Linux, and it's unaffected by an update to the Linux release.

And I don't know whether it would be more effort than what you do now.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Oct 21 - 05:05 PM

I meant "You could run these games under Windows 7 under Hyper-V in Windows 10."

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Oct 21 - 05:47 PM

Windows 11 updates are not being blocked for "non compatable" PCs!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 13 Oct 21 - 03:29 AM

Meanwhile, under the TS (Techie-Shit) label:
The Best Part of Windows 11 Is Its Linux

Windows 10 has been able to run Linux for some years but I could never see what use it was for a desktop user. It was command-line only: maybe running ffmpeg to process sound files? Windows 11 adds a graphical interface, which makes it more useful. Are there any Linux-only music or video programs that would make it worthwhile? And if there are why would you not just use Linux?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Oct 21 - 09:43 AM

Interesting question, Dave. A couple of programs I like that are not straightforwardly (there is a KDE port) ran on Windows are Digikam and K3b but I'd probably find Windows alternatives I like. Mythtv could be a problem but Kodi would probably do me if I just wanted a front end on a Windows platform and I would want to run the backend on a Linux machine.

On my own drift... I swapped what had got relegated to the spare because of some problem and I found I'd forgotten was a Ryzen 5 system for my desktop, exchanging a couple of bits from the latter. I now have a dual boot Leap 15.3/Win 11 PC as my Desktop PC.

I'm not sure how often I'll boot into Win 11 but at least it's there...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 04:13 PM

Windows 11 is now allowing wind back to Windows 10 - within 10 days of installation.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Oct 21 - 11:10 PM

Yes, 8.1 will upgrade directly to Win 10 without needing a new key.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 01:54 AM

Good luck, I rolled back to Windows 10 last night because I wanted to try the registry change method for Windows 11 installation on an old PC as recommended by MS. I tried from a mounted file set on the hard drive after putting in the registry changes, but that didn't work so next I'll delete the registry changes and boot from mounted file set on a usb drive, then at the fail message I can get to X:sources command prompt from shift+f10 and redo the registry changes, but I'm not too optimistic.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 08:51 AM

Cannot upgrade from Windows 10 to 11 from USB and keep files and software, has to be done from file set on hard drive. Now that won't install - I think perhaps MS is now putting something more in ISO to stop old PCs upgrading to Windows 11.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 09:16 AM

Microsoft is successfully making a very convincing case for Chromebooks...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 11:56 AM

microsoft are liars and thieves.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Oct 21 - 04:08 PM

Notwithstanding my previous post, I have 2 unsupported computers which have received all updates for Windows 11 which is now at version 22000.258 !!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Oct 21 - 04:58 PM

Still receiving Windows 11 updates on unsupported PCs!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 07:24 AM

A correction to a previous post.

Digikam exists as a straight Windows installable program. Another program that I thought would require KDE setting up is Kdenlive.

–
I’ve been playing around a bit with Windows and I rapidly decided that the MS Solitaire Collection is obnoxious. My own choice of patience games for that platform would PySolFC which apparently also offers some mahjong games. It does need python installed. I note that the website does mention some AV software detecting problems but I’m happy to accept that they are right in suggesting theses results are false positives and Malware Bytes gives the latest version I downloaded the all clear.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Oct 21 - 11:02 PM

Lady Hillary sent this to me. There are several "simple" hacks to get around TPM 2.0.

https://betanews.com/2021/07/03/registry-hack-bypass-tpm-windows-11/



https://www.techspot.com/news/91691-here-how-bypass-windows-11-tpm-cpu-requirements.html

This column and its links tell you what to consider before doing it. If you go forward, make sure you have a backup disk or thumb drive set up and loaded.


AskWoody Plus Newsletter Logo
ISSUE 18.40.F • 2021-10-18 • Read this issue online.


In this issue

PUBLIC DEFENDER: A single Registry line enables Windows 11 without TPM 2.0

Additional articles in the PLUS issue

LANGALIST: Can you fully delete the Edge browser? Should you?

BEST UTILITIES: Freeware Spotlight — CAD

HARDWARE DIY: Opal: Physical assembly — the motherboard

PATCH WATCH: Windows 11 is officially vulnerable




A single Registry line enables Windows 11 without TPM 2.0
Brian Livingston
By Brian Livingston

Microsoft has published a new support document revealing a one-line entry anyone can add to the Registry allowing Windows 11 to install on devices that do not have the so-called TPM 2.0 chip installed on the motherboard.

The Trusted Platform Module, as I explained in the September 6 AskWoody Newsletter, is a small hardware component that generates and stores cryptographic keys, among other things. Until the release of the recent support document, Microsoft had repeatedly stated that the 2.0 version of TPM would be a requirement before Windows 11 would install. In addition, Win11 has CPU and other hardware requirements above those of Win10, as set forth in Microsoft's Win11 specifications.

Supermicro AOM-TPM-9665V-S moduleIn this column, I'll show you exactly how you can use this new Registry entry to install Win11 on systems lacking TPM 2.0. TPM 2.0 may be provisioned on a motherboard by a discrete chip (a Supermicro 9665V is shown at left), or it may be integrated into the chipset associated with the processor. Win11 officially supports TPM 2.0 functionality built into the 2017 Intel Core 8th-gen microarchitectures and later, the 2018 AMD Zen+ CPU and later, and others.

However, many machines that came to market as recently as two or three years ago contain an earlier TPM 1.2 version. The final revision of TPM 1.2 was released a decade ago and appeared to be a standard that would endure. As recently as June 24, 2021, Microsoft was officially saying TPM 1.2 would be a "hard floor" for installing Win11. The company's announcements at that point stated TPM 2.0 was merely "recommended." But just one day later, MS reversed course, saying it was "required," as described in a CRN article.

IMPORTANT: Before you make any Registry changes or install anything new, it's important that you read to the end of this story for valid reasons why you might not want to install Win11 on hardware that Redmond considers "unsupported."

There’s one Registry key to rule them all
For purposes of this discussion, the following is merely an outline of the Registry tweak. You should first read Microsoft's official explanation, which is in its new "Ways to install Windows 11" support document.

Step 1. In Win10, press Win+R, enter tpm.msc, and verify TPM 1.2 is enabled.
Step 2. Run Microsoft's PC Health Check app, just so you know your configuration.
Step 3. Go to the Windows 11 software download page.
Step 4. Under "Download Win11 disk image (ISO)," click and read "Before you begin."
Step 5. Below that, click the "Download" button to burn an ISO (to a DVD, for instance).
Step 6. Before upgrading to Win11, press Win+R and enter regedit.
Step 7. Navigate to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\Setup\MoSetup.
Step 8. Right-click the right-hand pane and create a new DWORD (32-bit) Value.
Step 9. Name the entry AllowUpgradesWithUnsupportedTPMOrCPU.
Step 10. Give the entry a value of 1.
Step 11. Close the Registry Editor.
The above steps should allow you to install Win11 over Win10, even if a device has only TPM 1.2 enabled and not TPM 2.0.

As suggested by part of the Registry key itself — TPMOrCPU — the workaround will do more than just keep Win11 from requiring TPM 2.0. (With the trick, the requirement is only TPM 1.2, which is widely installed.) The "unbound" Win11 will also accept several generations of CPUs that didn't make it into Microsoft's Win11 specs.

You may still run afoul of other requirements, such as a 1GHz dual-core 64-bit CPU or better, 4GB of RAM, 64GB of disk storage, and a Secure Boot–capable UEFI (formerly known as BIOS). Since this whole procedure is unsupported, you're on your own if it doesn't work.

If the upgrade was unwise, you can revert a machine back to Win10 using the following steps:

Start, Settings, System, Recovery, Go back
That sequence will work only within 10 days after installing Win11, according to a separate Microsoft support document. After that 10-day period, the new operating system will automatically delete the reversion files to liberate disk space.

The Registry hack is not for novices nor the faint of heart
For more background on why you might or might not want to use the above Registry trick to install Win11 on unsupported hardware, I spoke with one of the smartest people I know: Carl Anderson. As a contractor, he worked for eight years at DARPA (the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency). Subsequently based at Bryant University — a private business school in Smithfield, Rhode Island — he was for 24 years the director of the International Trade Data Network, initially funded and governed by the US Department of Commerce and the Small Business Administration.

Although he's now retired, Anderson still provides consulting services to a few small businesses. For their benefit, he's put together a four-page, 150KB PDF explaining various different ways to implement the Registry fix.

These ways include:

Microsoft's officially documented method;
Installing Win11 from an ISO (International Organization for Standardization) image;
Manually changing certain Win10 files so Win11 will install; or
Using an open-source batch file to make the needed changes.
Boy, there are a lot of ways to skin this cat! Anderson has kindly given me permission to let AskWoody readers download the PDF.

Anderson cautions that he won't support his clients or anyone else who installs Win11 on unsupported hardware. I'll describe the pros and cons below.

Did Microsoft create its Registry entry due to manufacturer pressure?
First, we need to address the elephant in the room. After loudly claiming that Microsoft would not allow Win 11 to install itself on machines lacking TPM 2.0, why did the company insert a simple one-line command in the Registry permitting exactly that?

Anderson accepts a rumor, which I've also heard, that Microsoft was pressed by large system manufacturers, such as HP Enterprise, to provide an easy way for their older hardware to install Win11. As he describes the situation:

After Microsoft made TPM 2.0 a "hard" requirement, HP Enterprise requested MS develop a workaround for its clients with HP hardware that passed all Win11 requirements except TPM 2.0. Microsoft acquiesced and developed the bypass allowing TPM 1.2.

MS likely hadn't intended the bypass for non-enterprise deployment, and possibly only for specific HP hardware, but the cat was out of the bag.

This leads me to believe that Win updates and patches should continue working using the bypass, but I wouldn't bet on it long-term without official word from MS.

What does Microsoft itself say about updates and security patches? The company's "Installing Windows 11" support document clearly states: "Devices that do not meet these system requirements will no longer be guaranteed to receive updates, including but not limited to security updates."

That seems pretty definite! But predicting what Redmond will and will not do in the future — especially under pressure from some of its largest buyers — is a fool's errand. Anyone who tells you they know for sure is pulling your leg. Even Microsoft executives themselves can't be certain what they'll do in the years to come.

What software runs fine on TPM 1.2, and what truly requires TPM 2.0?
As an encryption generator and secure storage device, every version of TPM is so complicated that I could write hundreds of pages on the subject. In fact — if you really need the details on TPM 2.0 — Will Arthur and David Challener have converted their 2015 book on TPM 2.0 into a free 375-page PDF. It's a heavy read. They quote one wag as calling the protocol "security through incomprehensibility."

So let's cut to the chase: What software actually requires TPM 2.0, and what software can run perfectly well on TPM 1.2? I've created Figure 1, based on Microsoft's own "TPM Recommendations" document:

TPM
                  1.2 and TPM 2.0 features
Figure 1. TPM 1.2, which exists in most of today’s PCs, can support everything that the new TPM 2.0 can — with the exception of the four categories indicated with a red “X.” Source: Author's summary of Microsoft’s “TPM Recommendations” document

A machine with TPM 1.2 enabled supports everything that TPM 2.0 does, other than the four categories with an "X" in Figure 1. Do you really need any apps such as those?

Excellent answers are provided by Steve Gibson, a security expert and the developer of SpinRite and other popular software, in his September 7 "Security Now!" PDF. (In that multi-topic report, his discussion of TPM begins on page 10.) Here's a paraphrase of his comments on the four scenarios that require TPM 2.0:

Windows Autopilot can be used to deploy hundreds of Windows PCs or HoloLens 2 devices. So no big loss there if individuals and small businesses don't have TPM 2.0.
SecureBIO is an enterprise-targeted biometric identity system. As an alternative, Windows Hello works just fine with only TPM 1.2.
Windows Defender System Guard is a post-boot integrity verifier that works with TPM 2.0 to verify that the operating system wasn't compromised during the boot. No one outside of a huge enterprise is likely to use this.
TPM 2.0 adds several 256-bit encryption ciphers, but since TPM 2.0 is backward-compatible with TPM 1.2, software could simply continue using the TPM 1.2 functions on platforms having either TPM standard.
Microsoft's "TPM Recommendations" document also mentions "Device Encryption," which is a feature that uses TPM 2.0 to encrypt entire disks. But Gibson says MS BitLocker is superior and runs just fine with either version of TPM.

The bottom line: If you need one of those four features, use TPM 2.0
What if your company wants to implement software that works only with TPM 2.0 support? By all means, get TPM 2.0–enabled PCs and run your app. But if you don't need TPM 2.0, you can tune out all the hype about Windows 11 and ignore the "upgrade" for now.

As Joanna Stern, the personal-technology columnist for The Wall Street Journal, reported in her October 6 review: "I've come to the conclusion that Windows 11 is mostly about Microsoft and its partners selling more computers, not about giving your current one a new lease on life." With its lack of compelling new features, Stern said, "Microsoft's latest feels more like Windows 10.5 than what the company promised."

In Gibson's PDF, he puts it somewhat more bluntly:

There are NO NEW FEATURES in Windows 11 that require anything more of the TPM than Windows 10 already does... yet Windows 11 is refusing to run on the same TPMs as Windows 10... apparently because someone at Microsoft thought it would be cool to enact a more restrictive change in requirements.

Given these realities, the path Microsoft should take for Windows 11 is clear: Simply use the maximum security that’s being offered by whatever, if any, TPM is present in a system. If the platform offers TPM 2.0, great! Use the 256-bit enhanced security that’s available there. If not, settle for the 160-bit security offered by SHA-1 and TPM 1.2's HMAC — just as Windows 10 does now. If a platform doesn’t offer TPM 2.0, then its user cannot take advantage of those four enterprise-oriented features ...

So, explain to those enterprise users that if they want those four features they'll need to upgrade their hardware. But don’t tell any random home or small business user, who couldn't care less about Windows Defender System Guard and Autopilot, that they're S.O.L. if they wish to upgrade to the new Windows ... It's going to be seen as capricious and arbitrary, because as we've just seen, it is. [Emphasis in the original.]

The 160-bit SHA-1 encryption protocol was fully broken by security researchers in 2020, as explained in a Threatpost blog. The researchers' attack required two months of computations using 900 GPUs. But that much computing power costs only $11,000 to $45,000 at current cloud rental rates — well within the means of serious adversaries. So you should never use SHA-1 for digital signatures or any other private communications, although many organizations still do. Only 256-bit or higher protocols are truly secure these days.

Top secret: This is being pushed by the US Department of Defense
I suppose this will cost me my high-level, "eyes only" security clearance, but I'm compelled to tell you that Microsoft's moral quandary has a lot to do with the United States' defense-security needs.

To protect my reputation as a "good citizen" — in hopes that Tom Cruise will still consider me loyal enough to play an agent in his next "Mission Impossible" film — I can deflect the blame by pointing the finger directly at Microsoft. This news leak is not my fault! The Redmond tech giant let slip the big secret in the same "TPM Recommendations" document cited above:

For security reasons, some entities are moving away from SHA-1. Notably, NIST [the National Institute of Standards and Technology] has required many federal agencies [including the Department of Defense] to move to SHA-256.

In my defense, so to speak, the Department of the Navy also spilled the beans about this "massive, multiphase" SHA-256 upgrade requirement in a recent article.

The US defense connection is also a major reason why Microsoft will prepare separate Win11 versions for sale in China, Russia, and other authoritarian regimes. In these countries and many others, TPM chips are against the law. These powers may be suspicious that the DoD has inserted a back door into TPM encryption, as I reported in my September 6 column.

Some very big dog walkers are yanking on Microsoft's collar. Despite the Redmond corporation's size and wealth, it faces a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma:

Very big makers and users of PCs, servers, and other devices are pressuring Microsoft not to make hundreds of millions of their deployed units unable to run Win11, which many CEOs will think is an essential new thing. That's the reason MS added its new, permissive Registry key.
The largest defense department in the world — which has a bigger budget than the militaries of China, Russia, and the next five countries combined — is telling Microsoft that DoD won't buy and use Windows unless SHA-256 is baked in, which requires TPM 2.0. That's why MS is making Win11 sound like a fantastic, exciting toy everyone needs.
Ignore Win11's lame new Start menu and other cosmetic changes, such as rounded corners on dialog boxes. The strange, herky-jerky intro of Win11 is all about Microsoft not wanting to lose business from two of its most profitable groups of buyers.

Good things come to those who wait
Win11 isn't a must-have upgrade yet. It's not like Win 3.1, which introduced the revolutionary TrueType printing technology in 1992, or Windows 8.1, which rescued people in 2013 from the botched Windows 8 product. For now, Win10 is your best bet for a stable, reliable platform. Microsoft has committed to continue supporting Win10 with upgrades and security patches at least through October 14, 2025 (and probably longer).

That gives you plenty of time to evaluate things. Win11 may turn out to be the Vista of operating systems.

Now you know why it's not a good idea to install Win11 with a Registry tweak. The main reason to install Win11 is if you need to implement one of the four software features shown in Figure 1. In that case, you need hardware that includes TPM 2.0, anyway — and your machines may need to meet several other system requirements as well.

Installing Win11 on unsupported hardware may simply saddle you with devices that will someday miss out on crucial Microsoft updates.

Before you do anything, read all the documents that are linked to above. Then read one of the following explainers:

If you absolutely crave whatever is the latest thing MS has put out, you'll learn how you can download Win11 now, without waiting for the gradual rollout — which is expected to continue through mid-2022 — in a CNET guide. You may need to enable TPM, if it's disabled by default on a device, as explained in a Wired article.
If you prefer to look before you leap, several deal-breaking bugs and missing features in the "1.0 version" of Win11 are described in a Trusted Reviews evaluation. Poor performance, memory leaks, no Android apps yet, hard-to-customize taskbar — oh my.
As always, watch AskWoody for more news. Features that Win10 has and that Win11 doesn't are listed in a Lance Whitney critique, while some actual new features of Win11 are in his review (donation required).



Scales of Justice        Do you know something that we all should know? Tell me about it! I'll keep your identity totally confidential or give you credit, as you prefer. Send your story via the Public Defender tips page.


Talk Bubbles        Join the conversation! Your questions, comments, and feedback about this topic are always welcome in the AskWoody Lounge!
The PUBLIC DEFENDER column is Brian Livingston's campaign to give you consumer protection from tech. If it's irritating you, and it has an "on" switch, he'll take the case! Brian is a successful dot-com entrepreneur, author or co-author of 11 Windows Secrets books, and author of the new book Muscular Portfolios. Get his free monthly newsletter.



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LANGALIST

Fred Langa        
Can you fully delete the Edge browser? Should you?
By Fred Langa

The answer is yes, no, and maybe, depending on exactly what you're trying to do and what risks you're willing to take. You'll find the how-to information below.


PATCH WATCH

Susan Bradley        
Windows 11 is officially vulnerable
By Susan Bradley

Call me silly, but I never consider a Windows release as "official" until the first security updates come down on Patch Tuesday.

Windows 11 has 39 vulnerabilities; two of the fixes are deemed critical and 37 are important. KB5006674 also includes several fixes that, according to reports, impact performance on specific computers.

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Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 12:31 AM

It's 2021.
By now, consumers shouldn't have to do all that...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 03:26 AM

Meanwhile, something new:
Microsoft unveils Android apps for Windows 11 (for US users only)
(That's the kind of long-text link that is now easy with this.)

I use an Android tablet. I doubt if there are many - any? - Android apps I would want to run inside Windows. I do have an app called Music Scanner which will play a piece of sheet music, but I can't imagine using it on a laptop; it needs a good camera for a start. And if you wanted to use Google Pay you'd need TPM 2 ;)

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 05:18 AM

From all my successful and unsuccessful (is that right - not successfull??) attempts to install Windows 10 on my unsupported PCs, I recommend that the ISO route is used, which is best installed immediately after download.

Download to hard drive and extract to a new folder. Download an appraiseres.dll file with all referenced to TMP and UEFI removed, and replace file in sources folder.

Install from setup file.

Checking PC should then be bypassed.

I found that an ISO downloaded on a previous day would not install for some reason!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 08:02 AM

I tried twice to download the ISO but wound up with truncated files. A 5GB download takes ages with my not much more than 2Mbps connection so I didn't bother trying again.

I've not been that impressed with the Assistant method even with a PC MS says is OK though. I've been through this process twice with my PC (I decided to start afresh with Win 9 pro I bought rather than continue with the Win 9 Home version I'd taken by using a disk from another PC) and on both occasions, the upgrade failed at around 70% with some cryptic error message.

The first time, I thought it was because the Nvidia graphics card would not support Direct X 12 but, second time round, I had a compatible Nvidia graphics card with the latest drivers installed and it still failed. My best guess is that my system needs the drivers for the built Radeon grapics installed (and perhaps having that card in use - both my succesful attempts had this) before the upgrade will go throuh.

--
One a diferent sujbject, triggered by a question Dave asked... I may find it an expensive mistake but I want to see how I get on with using Win 11 as the main OS on my desktop PC.

Most of the programs I use are cross platform and I can still do any server admin I might need via ssh. I'm not a great fan of dual boot in that I tend only to use the other OS when stuck and don't want to try the route of Win 11 on a virtual server or see if I can get more coplicatd programs running under wine. One program I do want to have a play with is the free for personal use version of Fusion 360 and there may be other examples of programs without Linux versions I'd like to try.

Whatever I wind up settling for, the rest of the system (which includes mums PC and dad's laptop) will remain on Linux, in my case both OpenSuse and Raspberry Pi OS.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 10:44 AM

Jon, I suggest you clone your hard disc first so you have a backup of everything if things go pear shaped. Acronis is very good.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Oct 21 - 11:32 AM

That's probably a good idea, bonzo, thanks. I'll look into the program and probably get a USB disk to do this with but that will probably have to wait until next week.

For now though, I've done quite a few downloads and installs, have a reasonable group of programs set and am on Win 11 at the moment. So far, so good, but I think it will be a while before I decide whether or not this is a move for the better for me.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Oct 21 - 10:38 AM

Well I had a change of plan and got an internal ssd instead of a usb drive and have transferred the Win 11 system onto that. The old Win hdd can serve as a cloned copy if needed. I looked at acronis but it seemed to be subscription software and for me (who generally dislikes paying for software anyway), that is a no go. I used Aoemi Backup Pro. It, together with their partioner pro (which I’d already used in free std form), were on some “Halloween bundle” offer which seemed reasonable to me.

As for Win 11 general usage, I’ve changed to single click and moved the start button to the left and it doesn’t really feel that different to me (although it would to mum who looks for differences rather than similarities) to using the OpenSuse Plasma 5 desktop.

I’d commented on wondering about MythTv before. Kodi works fine but I think its recording options with the mythtv plugin are weak. There was however a simple solution. I installed MythWeb on the server and that gives me quite a usable web interface I can use with Firefox on Windows.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 21 - 11:10 AM

Dave Ro, regarding Android software on a Windows platform, some software like SoundHound would be good on the computer. If I want to ID something playing on the computer now I need to pull up the app on the phone and hold it up for identification. I hadn't heard about the company's other projects, but that "Hound" voice assistant sounds like a rival to Siri and Alexa.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 27 Oct 21 - 01:23 PM

Here's some more detail:
Introducing Android™ Apps on Windows 11 to Windows Insiders

AFAICS the publisher would have to get their app into Microsoft's web store, so they'd have to be persuaded that it was worth the effort (and cost?). SoundHound looks like they might think it's worth it.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 11:20 AM

But what if one doesn't have a microsoft account?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 11:48 AM

You don't need a Microsoft account to log onto Windows, you just have to be persistent and click through the part where it wants you to logon to Microsoft. Use your own computer password.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 11:59 AM

Bonzo3legs wrote: But what if one doesn't have a microsoft account?

If you're asking about Anroid support, I've no idea. Maybe you can sideload an app, i.e. get the APK file from somewhere and install it yourself. But on Android some apps, particularly paid-for ones, require access to the Playstore to check that they are licenced, and otherwise do not work. Others - Firefox for example - do not: you can install them on any Android-like device.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 12:51 PM

Hmm, heres something I typed earlier but had decided not to post. Maybe it will give bonzo some ideas to try...

I started to look at the look at the new Windows System for Android but decided against opting in to the insiders program. It started me looking at running Android on Windows and there seem to be a few other ways:

There is an “Arc Welder” extension for Chrome which apparently can work with Windows.

There are a number of emulators which seem mostly targeted at gaming of which BlueStacks seems to get the most mentions

I feel all of these would need a bit of research in terms of possible ads, costs, and security.

You could install Android on VirtualBox or perhaps other virtual machine.

You could use the tools in the Android SDK. I have done this (eg via Android Studio) but found it slow. That said, it’s quite a while since I last had a play with Android development and things can change.

Both of these are probably more involved than your “average user” (whatever that is) might want.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 02:22 PM

Fwiw, I had already put Andriod Studio on Win 11 as something I'd be looking for at some point and have just added an emulator.

I'm having a few problems (it seems reasonably responsive but the UI has the odd crash) with the emulator I chose and will try another but A snapshot of an emulated Pixel 2 running google maps.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 05:18 PM

Well, I'm always curious about new stuff and don't believe the naysayers very much and I have no major reason not to trust Microsoft, so I downloaded and installed Windows 11 on my computer when it became available to me this morning. Installation was very easy - took about an hour. So far, it seems to have a crisper response on my computer than I had with Windows 10, so maybe this is an improvement.
Wish me luck.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Oct 21 - 06:00 PM

You are lucky to have a "compatible" PC!! Arguably at least half the world doesn't.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 02:41 AM

Yeah, Bonzo, so far, so good. I bought this Dell Inspiron computer in March of 2020, and there wasn't much choice available. It was really sluggish. I bought 32 GB of RAM, and it was still sluggish - I'd copy something, and it wouldn't copy or wouldn't paste. I'd type something, and the display would be half a line behind. With a computer that's slow to respond, I can't help but make mistake.
But so far with Windows 11, the response seems much quicker.
Wish me luck.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 03:44 AM

With 32GB of memory it ought to be really quick, whatever processor it has. Have you tried something like this?
How to Troubleshoot Slow Performance Issues

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 02:58 PM

Well I've taken a look at the Android SoundHound app mentioned by SRS and have had it working both Linux on and on Windows 11 by using the Android SDK emulators (which btw have been quite a bit faster than my memory had it).

--
Glad things are working well Joe.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 29 Oct 21 - 05:18 PM

Apparantly you can install Android apps into Windows Subsystem for Android from the Amazon Appstore, like the Amazon Fire tablet. It doesn't look too bad - you can play games on it.

Windows Subsystem for Android: What's the point?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 05:35 AM

Still getting Windows 11 updates on unsupported PCs!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 08:25 AM

Great advice for installing Windows 11 on unsupported PCs

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 08:31 AM

Well I think your upgrades may go on for the entire lifespan of Win 11 or stop tommorrow Bonzo. That sort of uncertainly may, quite reasonably, put people off. If my own situation was one where I was reliant on an under Win 11 spec yet decent Win 10 machine, I'd not upgrade.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 21 - 11:05 AM

Whatever, if they stop I can simply install latest Windows 11 over a clone of my main PC's SSD running Windows 10!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Nov 21 - 06:04 PM

This is the easiest method I have found for upgrading Windows 10 to Windows 11 on an unsupported PC, keeping all files + software.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Nov 21 - 09:06 AM

In that method, the appraiserres.dll file is renamed, and having put in the registry edits, the setup.exe file is run as administrator.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 02:01 AM

Well, I dunno. I guess it's been a week now since I installed Windows 11. I bought a new computer last year because my 10-yr-old Windows
7 - 8.1 - 10 computer was finally slowing down and not handling this new Zoom program very well. The computer I got in March 2020 was what was available - better computers would take months to obtain. It was very sluggish, and even 32 GB of RAM didn't fix it. But it's running quite smoothly with Windows 11, so I'll postpone buying a post-COVID computer for now.
But I can't expand this computer much more, so I imagine I'll have it only a couple years more.
I sure think it's best to buy a computer you can expand. I loved that Lenovo I bought ten years ago, and I could improve it quite cheaply - but it had reached its time.
I'll be interested to see how long my stepson's computer will last. Ten years ago when he was a computer science major, I took him to Fry's (now gone) and bought him what he needed to build his own computer, on which he runs Linux. This was about the same time I bought my beloved Lenovo at a considerably lower price. He's still going strong with that computer. But now he has a job in Texas that pays a steady income. We'll see how long he keeps this computer. I'm sure that soon all he'll have left will be the original box. But I sure will be proud of him if he keeps that box.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Nov 21 - 05:20 PM

My main computer is a 2013 Lenovo Thinkcentre which my boss was going to dump, and he said I could take it. Now running SDD with Windows 10 it is very fast, although sometimes meets its match with Photoshop!

I may clone that SSD on to a new one and upgrade to Windows 11 to see how it runs.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 08:23 AM

About to upgrade cloned SSD to SSD from Windows 10 to 11 as administrator!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 10:47 AM

As it happens, I was cursing dad's Lenovo laptop (and Linux and Realtek) last night. I like the machine in some ways. It is a better build than my ASUS and it make changing the drive and upgrading the RAM easy, proving an access cover for that. I don't think this ones A8 processor is the fastest in the world but it's ample for dad who rarely does more than email and web browsing. The main gripe I have with it is that I've never managed to get its wifi and bluetooth working. The last time I looked, it appeared these parts were unlikely to get supported. My workaround has been to use a RTL8821AU based combined wifi/bluetooth USB dongle but that has given me headaches from time to time.

Anyway, due to dad making an unexpected and generous offer I wasn't going to turn down I've got/will have some new things as well as a couple of upgrades coming up. As I will be getting a new Dell laptop, one debate I had was whether to pass my faster ASUS on to dad or to keep the Lenovo. I decided that, on balance, he was better sticking with the Laptop he likes and is familiar with but that I would fit it with an ssd and upgrade to 8GB RAM.

That went smoothly as did the fresh install of Opensuse 15.3 except I couldn't get wi-fi on the dongle working and neither my memory nor looking at the contents of the old hdd revealed how it had been working last time round. I started at about 10pm and I think it was about 2:30am when (thanks to instructions for a patch I found on line that I could apply to one source code) I finally managed to compile and install to get working wifi.

Anyway, a bit of an OT ramble but Joe may be pleased to know that this upgraded Lenovo is now on course for giving (I hope) a few more years useful service for dad here.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 11:18 AM

My little "spare" computer is a 2013 Sony Vaio that is WiFi only, one of the USB ports doesn't work and I haven't found a battery to replace the one it came with (so it has to stay plugged in all of the time). It arrived with Win 8, was updated to Win 10, and I don't know that I want to bother with Win 11 on it.

The Dell XPX I'm using now was purchased a couple of years ago and came with Win 10. The old HP Pavilion Elite HPE is a quad core I bought with Win 7 for all of the heavy duty Adobe software I use and it still has my most recent releases (from work, not purchased by me). It has Win 10 on it now. The only way to upgrade it is to format the whole things and get it back to talking to the network, but I'd lose all of the installed software. I have a full backup, but I don't think it would put the software back without insurmountable complications. I move data into and out using a transfer cable that acts like another drive on both computers and has a built in software called EasySuite.exe.

I got the cable on sale from the online folks at Radio Shack: it's still around, and still selling useful stuff - though as Joe points out, my other and more reliable place was Fry's Electronics and it has completely vanished. They didn't even do "Going Out Of Business" sales, they just turned off the website and padlocked the doors one day.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 02:18 PM

YeaH, I miss Fry's. Twenty years ago, it was a wonderland. In the ten years before it closed, it always looked like a failing business. It was never completely stocked - a huge store with lots of empty shelves. It was a wonderful source for computer equipment, but I think it made a mistake trying to sell televisions and appliances and candy bars and such.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 02:35 PM

Joe, I found some good small appliances there (vacuums, crock pots, microwave, etc.) at good prices. And things like the detergent that goes in my carpet cleaner. But I also thought the last few years it had the look of going out of business without saying so.

Microsoft fixes Windows 11 features failing due to an expired certificate
Windows 11 features are no longer failing to load

If you’re running Windows 11, you should be offered the KB5008295 update today, and it will automatically install from Windows Update. This patch does require a reboot, and Microsoft notes it will address all of the issues from the expired certificate, including the accounts page in Windows 11 with S mode failing to load.

Microsoft was relatively quick to address these problems after the company discovered the certificate issue on Monday. It’s unusual for Microsoft to issue out-of-band patches that aren’t security-related for its Windows operating systems, and this is one of the first emergency-style fixes for Windows 11.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Nov 21 - 03:35 PM

Well, I'm a convert to affordable Chromebook 'laptops' for quick easy convenient
general purpose net surfing..

Better than tablets and mobile phones, and none of the PITA of microsoft..

Mine are Lenovo N22 - manufactured aimed at schools,
so they are sturdy durable construction.

The only real disadvantage with chromebooks is they come with a fixed date for becoming obsolete and no longer provided with system updates.

Approx 5 or 6 years.

Mine are due to stop updating within the next 12 months.

This is important to know if tempted by cut price deals.
You must enquire how long they have left for updates.

The hardware should still work for ages after, but without security and system updates.

Maybe they can be hacked for linux ?????

The latest affordable chromebooks are far more powerful and capable tech specs than my dependable little workhorses,
which are starting to slow down and freeze under the strain of 2021 bloated web pages...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Nov 21 - 10:56 AM

A question: if you've done a recent Win 11 install (versus installing it last summer when it first came out) how much of your regular software did you have to fiddle with to get things back to how you use them? Did it delete features you like? Did you have to re-set your browser tabs, etc?

A friend called today to ask if I'd make the transition to 11, and we agreed it's a good thing to wait until a few people have already done it and the bugs are worked out (as much as they EVER work out the bugs). I've posted to this thread when I see articles about Win 11, but I may soon be joining the ranks of those to take the plunge.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Nov 21 - 11:16 AM

Everything worked as with Windows 10, but Windows Update has been a little sticky over the last couple of days.

Don't forget you can go back to Windows 10 within 10 days of installation.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Nov 21 - 11:34 AM

Bonz - I wouldn't trust microsoft on that promise...

Back when win 10 was introduced as free offer install,
I bought a brand new win 8.1 PC and immediately before using it for anything else,
'upgraded' to win 10..

After several days struggling with problems, I decided to give up and roll back to Win 8.1.

Didn't work out so well, as 8.1 was now buggy, and some functions were broken.

I'm now prepared to consider win 10 might be more reliable for another attempt with a laptop this time..

But bugger win 11 - won't even consider risking it until I ever buy a new computer...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Nov 21 - 12:43 PM

My friend is getting popup messages urging him to update to Win 11. I haven't gotten those - so either my computer upgraded stealthily and I'm not aware of it (I say humorously - I doubt that very much) or I'm on a different schedule of notifications from the company. This is a Dell and I get Dell update screens every so often, so it might arrive with one of those.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 07 Nov 21 - 01:08 PM

I've had those popups on both our Win 10 machines, neither of which get close to the hardware requirements for Win 11 One is 11 years old. You need to to run the hardware checker program.

Reverting from Win 11 to Win 10 'should work' - but it depends on what's happened to the system since. And on everything going right!

On the subject of reversion, MS has invented a novel (I think) way of generating the scripts which revert files to their state before update: 'Reverse Update Data Generation'.

How Microsoft reduced Windows 11 update size by 40%

For more detail see also the links in that piece. You can see why reversion might not work!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 08 Nov 21 - 08:31 AM

I've had the very occasional BSOD (black in Win 11) on my PC.

This may or may not be down to the 16GB PC 3600 RAM I fitted. I only looked at Crucial's site after ordering the memory from mazon. Crucial's info said it wasn't compatible with my motherboard. Other websites suggested that speed memory should be OK. I couldn't get it to work stably at full speed but using the board's default 2667 seemed OK.

Windows own memory test (sticking with default settings) gives an OK.
I've been entirely on Linux for the last 4 days and haven't had any problems.
But BSODs have crept into Win 11 for some reason.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Nov 21 - 03:31 PM

Oh yes, I just pulled the plug, restarted and it was fine. I'm on version 21H2 22000.282 on both unsupported PCs!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Nov 21 - 03:39 PM

BSOD isn't a harbinger of good things, Jon! I hope you work it out!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Nov 21 - 04:59 PM

Best to regularly make system restore points, so that you can go back to a working system. There are plenty of videos showing how to get to the troubleshooting screen from BSOD!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Nov 21 - 03:41 PM

Windows 11 KB5007215 update downloading as I type - so unsupported PCs not in the mire yet!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Nov 21 - 04:01 PM

Windows 11 updated to version 21H2 22000.318!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 13 Nov 21 - 03:38 AM

Here's a reason not to update to Windows 11:
If the latest Windows 11 really wants to use Edge, it will use Edge nomatter what

Microsoft Windows 11 build 22494 prevents links associated with the Microsoft Edge browser from being handled by third-party applications, a change one developer argues is anticompetitive.
...
Microsoft is not doing this for all web links – it hasn't completely rejected browser choice. It applies the microsoft-edge:// protocol to Windows 10 services like News and Interest, Widgets in Windows 11, various help links in the Settings app, search links from the Start menu, Cortana links, and links sent from paired Android devices. Clicking on these links will normally open in Edge regardless of the default browser setting.

"Microsoft isn’t a good steward of the Windows operating system. They’re prioritizing ads, bundleware, and service subscriptions over their users’ productivity."

The article mentions why the 'open this link in this browser' feature was invented - by Google Chrome, to overcome Apple's insistance on opening links in Safari.

My guess is that this is an attempt to divert advertising from Google Chrome - which is the most-used browser - to Microsoft Edge. But I suspect Google will not be easy to embrace, extend, and extinguish

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 21 - 04:58 PM

Update on Win11 installation on an unsupported PC - simply delete the appraiserres.dll file found in the Sources folder of the ISO, and disable the initial search for updates!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Nov 21 - 08:11 AM

Worked well with a random installation file set, 22000.192 which is an early version. I will roll back to Windiws 10 and use the latest ISO. No need to mess with the registry for TPM and secure boot bypass!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Nov 21 - 10:11 AM

But apart from the fun of putting two fingers up to microsoft
by defying and subverting their imposed restrictions..

.. is Win 11 actually worth all that effort...???

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Nov 21 - 06:23 PM

No I don't think so.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Nov 21 - 12:54 PM

So far my system hasn't nagged me to update. But I expect that to start one of these days. I tend to keep Microsoft at an arm's length, I don't logon to their network, I use a local computer password, etc.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Nov 21 - 12:21 PM

Update to version 22000.348 now on!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 21 - 02:20 PM

So....has anyone 'upgraded' from Win 10 to 11 by the 'standard', straightforward method via MS-Updates, without playing about trying to outwit MS by being 'clever' and techno-geeky?

If so...how did it go and does it play nice? Enquiring minds need to know...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Dec 21 - 03:24 PM

That will be my approach when the time comes, but I'm not interested in wasting a day trying to put things back where I want them.

Good luck if you're thinking about making the jump!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Dec 21 - 03:48 PM

Not really, but ‘Updates’ keeps nagging me to ‘upgrade’ - my Dell laptop is five months old and guaranteed, at the time I purchased it, to be ‘Windows 11-ready’. I don’t know anyone here in the Real World who has switched to 11, and the guys here who have switched seem to get off on trying to do it the most difficult way possible.

I just wondered if anyone normal has switched by the recommended method, how the ‘upgrade’ process went, and how 11 performs.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 07:39 AM

Well, I have to assume that no-one has ‘upgraded’ to 11 by the ‘proper’ route then? Guess I’ll log out again and return to anonymity….

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 08:14 AM

You need to find people with a compatible PC to answer your question Backwoodsman, but there is no reason I can see why not. Just remember that you have just 10 days to roll back to Windows 10 with data and software intact, otherwise a clean install of Windows 10 would be necessary, which is why I recommend making a clone of your hard disc before upgrading to Windows 11.

Incidentally, I did an upgrade from 10 to 11 yesterday with wifi disconnected, which took less than half the usual time without the endless updates sequences. This produced version 22000.318 which was the October release.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 10:19 AM

"You need to find people with a compatible PC to answer your question Backwoodsman"

yep, that's precisely what I was hoping to find when I posed my question above, Bonz! But it looks like only the Techno-Geeks and Backdoor-Boys have done it so far?

I'm looking for the experiences of normal, old musician-types - people like me - who have no interest in buggering about for hours on end trying to defeat Microsoft, and who just want to know if the 'upgrade' works, and is Win 11 any good.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 12:46 PM

Absolutely no point at all in upgrading to Windows 11, hardly any difference from Windows 10 in my view.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 21 - 01:42 PM

Thanks Bonz. I think I’ll stick with 10, it’s supported until 2025 so no mad rush…

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 12:49 AM

I don't think I did anything to speed up the installation of Window 11 on my computer. It just came up as a notification from Windows Update, and I accepted it. It seems to manage memory and resources better than Windows 10. I bought my Dell computer in March, 2020. I got a ready-made computer because COVID had slowed shipping of custom computers to about 6 months. Right away, I was disappointed that the performance of the new computer was so balky. I could type half a line before it appeared on the screen. I upgraded RAM to 32 Gb, and that didn't help much. But after I installed Windows 11, the computer ran a lot more smoothly.
Nonetheless, I gave into temptation on Black Friday and bought the computer I should have bought last year. Now I have the fun job of moving to a new computer. The new computer had Windows 10 Pro, but offered me Windows 11 Pro during the setup process. But I can't use my new computer yet. It needs Display Port video cables if I want two monitors, so I have to wait for Amazon to deliver them.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 07:38 AM

My PC is Windows 11 compatible. The Windows 11 Installation Assistant is a Microsoft approved method and I made no attempt to trick the installation program. I did however find shortcomings in the Microsoft program.

My first installation attempt was made with an incompatible graphics card (insufficient Direct X???). The Microsoft program ought to have picked this up in its checks before proceeding with the upgrade but I only found out there was a problem when the program crashed with some cryptic error number. A third party program (a checker built into aomei partition assistant) revealed the incompatibility the MS program should have detected.

I still had what I think were graphic card issues with the upgrades without the incompatible card installed but I was able to find my way through that. Again, I attribute this to failures in the MS program.

Sine then, I have used the same Assistant method on my new Dell laptop. That went through without issue.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 10:29 AM

The first nag just appeared in the bottom of my screen last night. I pushed it out a week (and it tells me I can open one of the settings to push it to a farther out date. I'll do that when I'm not in the middle of something else.)

I did see a screen telling me what from Windows 10 will go away - and I'll also take a look at that.

My pattern has been to skip some of the new builds. I used Win7 on my main desktop, and then went to Win10. I didn't have a touch screen so didn't bother with the Win8 builds. Does anyone see a pressing reason for accepting the Win11 OS?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 08:13 AM

None whatsoever, other than for fun. Easiest and fastest method is from a copy of a mounted ISO, with internet disconnected to avoid the endless update sequence, which can be done afterwards.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 01:16 PM

Well, crap. I'm on the little laptop in the kitchen, the backup computer, while Windows 10 is reset in the desktop. I got a continuous loop that I couldn't get out of trying to do System Restore to get rid of a glitchy right-click context menu problem. System Restore was supposed to go back a month, but instead I have error code 00021a, and the computer is ignoring my existing regular backup, instead making a new one (onto my backup drive, duh) and the reinstalling Windows 10.

Fuck it. I Guess I might as well install Windows 11 before going back to reinstall all of the non-Windows software that the reinstall is going to kill.

Thoughts?

Bonus point: I went over for a PCR COVID test this morning after feeling bad for a few days. The only place I've been in 2 weeks? I had to go to my doctor's office last week for a blood draw. Irony, illustrated. :-/

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 08:00 PM

Hours later, it is creeping along in the backup part of the operation. I should have disconnected the video drive.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jan 22 - 10:55 PM

Reinstall failed? Geez. Whatever is happening here is not letting itself be remedied by usual measures. I'm rescuing data from the external drive backup because it wants to use that to install a clean OS that deletes all data. Everything is paused while data is copied to another external drive on the old non-Internet computer. This is a Windows 10 catastrophic crash.

What a day.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 08:17 AM

Best to install with internet disconnected in that case, then much quicker to install. Updates can follow by forced manual update. Is your hard drive SSD?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 10:46 AM

I don't have any installation software, it's coming from Dell, so it has to be via the Internet. I know - the days when they gave you a handful of DVDs felt like you had a little security as far as the operating system.

Yes, I have a smaller SSD C: drive for programs and OS, D: drive and extra hard drive for the rest.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Jan 22 - 03:50 PM

Why don't you download the Windows 11 iso from the microsoft site. Once downloaded, right click and mount the iso, copy all the files and folders to a new folder say on the desktop and run setup.exe and if your laptop is compatible with Windows 11 should install OK.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jan 22 - 11:01 AM

No new OSs on any other computers here until I get the main one up and running. I have a backup slowly wending from one drive to another because Windows assures me it will wipe all data on the drives once it does it's restoration of Win 10. The backup drive should be hands off, but that's just common sense, not the real world computer-wise. I've installed stuff from the backup before so once I have that information duplicated I can move forward.

The thing I haven't done is call Dell or Windows.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Jan 22 - 04:27 PM

Meanwhile, it testing land:

Microsoft brings Jenny, Aria, and more interface tweaks to new Windows 11 Insider build
Exorcising the ghost of Windows past

Microsoft has dropped another Windows 11 Insider build into the hands of unpaid testers, demonstrating it is serious about tidying up the mismatch of user interface cues in its flagship operating system.

Build 22543 arrived in the Dev Channel last night and while the company was keen to trumpet the arrival of more natural voices for its Narrator ("Jenny" and "Aria") and new keyboard commands, the updated visuals are a welcome bit of polish – particularly in light of the ravaging of Notepad and Task Manager.

After finally sorting out hardware indicators for the brightness and volume, today's emission brought tweaks to the media controls on the lock screen (for some Insiders) so it looks more like the design in Quick Settings when they are signed in.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jan 22 - 05:27 PM

I was going to go ahead and upgrade to 11 but it wasn't offering an easy way to do it, so heck with it for now. It's enough of a mess trying to get 10 up and running again (lots of stuff to reinstall because it thinks the backup was wiped.) All of this for a glitch in the right click context menu. Oy.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 05:33 PM

Seems like there is a consensus to not do it?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Feb 22 - 07:31 PM

There are a lot of people waiting - let them work out more of the bugs first. My routine in the past was to wait until there was the release of a major service pack to upgrade and fix things. I still have some of the academic versions on disk around here somewhere - they're very pretty and good to hang in the garden to scare off birds from the tomatoes.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 12:15 PM

I'm [still] ignoring Win11 for now.

Do any of you backup to the cloud? What are you using and why did you choose it?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 12:17 PM

Updates still coming through OK on non compatible PCs!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 04:05 PM

Cloned my Windows 10 SSD to a second SSD this afternoon which booted up nicely in my 11 year old PC. I then upgraded that to Windows 11, keeping all software and data.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Apr 22 - 04:52 PM

Keeping all software - now that's a trick! It isn't standard, is it? Usually you have to reinstall a bunch of stuff?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 07:42 AM

He's done an 'in-situ' upgrade from 10 to 11, so installed applications should be unaffected. You should only have to reinstall your software if you've clean-installed Windows.

I think that's always been true, but there were technical and licencing reasons why you couldn't upgrade in-situ. ISTR For example that you could upgrade 7 to 10 in-situ (I did) but not if you'd upgraded to 7 from Vista. Or something like that.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 08:35 AM

You need to download the ISO, then right click and "mount" it to see the folder/ fileset. Copy and paste into a new folder. Then delete appraiserres.dll in the sources folder, which will stop Windows 11 finding PC is non- compatible. Start the installation but stop it checking for updates. Chose to keep apps and data.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 06:27 AM

Way OT but it's not worth a new thread but here's a weird error message that pops up in shells on Linux on my deskto occasionallyp. I'm not sure I've seen another quite like it and it beats Windows BSODs:

Message from syslogd@worthy at May 31 04:53:43 ...
kernel:[273367.515568] Uhhuh. NMI received for unknown reason 2d on CPU 4.

Message from syslogd@worthy at May 31 04:53:43 ...
kernel:[273367.515569] Do you have a strange power saving mode enabled?

Message from syslogd@worthy at May 31 04:53:43 ...
kernel:[273367.515570] Dazed and confused, but trying to continue

Whatever it means, things continue as normal and it doesn't seem to do any harm.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 12:04 PM

Windows BSOD is nothing, tough luck if anyone doesn't keep a clone of the hard disk.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 02:59 PM

Jon Freeman: At least your system's telling you something. It might be worth looking in the system logfiles for possibly-related messages .... that's how I found that my Linux laptop's occasional four-second pauses during boot were due to the solid-state disc getting remounted, which suggests it's wearing out.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 07:06 AM

Thanks MaJoc...

As far as I can make out, with my PC, it is an issue that can occur with certain AMD CPUs when IBS (apparently Instruction Based Sampling..) is enabled and the CPU goes into a certain power saving mode. AMD don't seem to have any plans for fixing it but it does not appear to cause any harm.

I think it would happen with Windows PCs too but I don't know how they handle it. Linux, as we know, can make some odd protests but, on this PC, I don't get them often, every couple of days at most.

As it stands, I'll just leave things alone.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 07:43 AM

Windows 11 updates still being accepted by non-compatible PC, and wind back to Windows 10 still works - albeit very slow on HDD.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 05:38 AM

Found a script which forbids Windows 11 to do compatibility checks, and oddly shows that Windows Server is being installed!!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 07:54 AM

I have assumed without evidence that Windows 11 is to insure that no vestige of privacy remain. In this Brave New World AI in this country is on the side of consumerism, in China AI is on the control side.

British democracy imo will be defeated by an algorithem and not an individual political party.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 08:14 AM

What are you talking about, for a start you do not need a microsoft account.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Jun 22 - 08:31 AM

Interesting that during an upgrade to Windows 11 it stuck on 59%, because it appears, Windows 10 was trying to install an update!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jun 22 - 04:44 AM

Finally got Windows 11 back on my spare PC, albeit not the current version. Updates are being a bit sticky.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jun 22 - 03:33 PM

Left PC on when I popped home lunchtime to walk the greyhound - she lasted 20 yards in this heat!! Window 11 now nicely updated to latest version 22000.739

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jul 22 - 11:10 AM

Windows 11 now uploading nicely to version 22000.829

Had a chat with my PC tech this morning, apparently microsoft are relaxing hardware requirements for Windows 11, so there is hope when support for Windows 10 runs out in 2025!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 04:01 PM

Windows 11 22H2, the annual big update will load on to incompatible PCs running Windows 10, but Settings didn't seem to be fully functional, neither was roll back to Windows 10. I think perhaps those bastards at microsoft are to blame.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 05:16 PM

I'm still using Win10 on both of my devices. There was an opportunity to upgrade to Win11 when I restored this desktop earlier this year, but the system didn't offer it at the time and I wasn't going to go looking for it.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:39 AM

I still have Windows 10 on my main PC. My spare is now back on win11 ver 21h2 which will be supported until 2024.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 07:30 AM

I intend to get to the bottom of the 22H2 failings, no doubt others will have the same problem and a fix will appear in youtube!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 03:15 PM

Fixed - I used the wrong ISO, it must have the same language as existing operating system. NO problems when I used the English USA ISO!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 03:52 PM

”I'm still using Win10 on both of my devices.”

Me too, Maggie. Win 10 is slated for support until 2025, I’m sticking with it until I’m convinced Win 11 is a safe option with a problem-free upgrade routine. No-one I know in the Real World has upgraded thus far…

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 04:52 PM

I now have Windows 11 22H2 on a spare PC with a 3000Mhz processor - BIOS dated 09/03/11 without a microsoft account - so up yours microsoft!!!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 08:42 PM

John, in the next three years Windows 12 will probably appear, supplanting Win11. I quite often skip a generation of the Windows programs and go with the next one. Always getting the PRO version.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 09:39 PM

Yep, you’re probably right on the button there, Maggie! Time will tell but, in the meantime, Win 10 is working fine for me, and I see no reason to spend time, and risk hassles, upgrading to 11.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 05:47 AM

I now have Win11 right click context menus back to Win 10 format!!!

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 23 Oct 22 - 09:42 AM

Well, here it is for anybody who can find a use for it:
Microsoft's Windows Subsystem for Android finally gets its stable release

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 08:24 AM

My 11 year old spare PC is a dual core, but 2 further cores can be enabled in bios, which I did last night. Am I supposed to notice a difference in speed?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 09:19 AM

Not necessarily, if you mean hyperthreading: what you get is each internal core looking like two, because it's being being timeshared between two threads. The illusion relies, amongst other things, on main memory being slower than the CPU core, so a single core would be busy-waiting on instructions from memory for much of the time.

Whether you see a speedup will depend on quite how many things you (and your software) are doing at the same time, and whether your system is busy-waiting on the spinning rust, or your network connection, or ....

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 09:29 AM

.... Oh, and don't forget to check how much swap space you've got on your hard drive, and whether it's being hammered by excessive swapping. Virtual memory's always slower than the real thing.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 09:32 AM

Bonzo3legs wrote: Am I supposed to notice a difference in speed?

It depend what you run on it. My PC, about the same age, has has 6 cores (i7-3960X). The only thing that I know uses them all - because it tells me - is compiling.

I've noticed that ffmpeg has a '-threads' parameter but never tried it to see whether it encodes more quickly.

Does Adding More Cores Mean Better Performance?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Oct 22 - 10:59 AM

Are any of you using a cloud backup? How is that impacted when you upgrade to the next OS?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 11:47 AM

I don't use cloud backup on a PC but I doubt that backup data being 'in the cloud' - i.e on a remote file server as opposed to being on a local disk - makes any difference at all.

The program* making the backup, and restoring the data, may be affected, depending on what features it has. That program might be part of the OS, such as Win 10's 'File History' facility, or a separate program such as Aomei Backupper (both of which I use). If I were upgrading to Win 11 I'd check whether those still worked, and whether the old backups are restorable.

* or 'app' as Windows now likes to call them

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 12:14 PM

The thing with Windows 10 is that it has the option of using the old Win7 backup, and I have that going. I was looking at adding file history and just have to make the move to use it also. Also maybe put in a fresh external drive and keep a recent one separate from the machine (because if the machine is compromised by malware it goes for all external drives including the backup drive.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 27 Oct 22 - 04:42 PM

Stilly River Sage wrote: Also maybe put in a fresh external drive and keep a recent one separate from the machine (because if the machine is compromised by malware it goes for all external drives including the backup drive.

Your comment made me wonder whether cloud storage was vulnerable to ramsomeware. Short answer: yes it is (you can google the question). So a USB dive not left plugged in (we discussed in an earlier thread) is probably safer.

I ought to check that my Aomei backup can actually be used to restore the machine if the disk (it's an SSD) failed. But I haven't.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Oct 22 - 11:56 AM

Old astronomers' adage: If you haven't written it down, you may as well not have made the observation.

Old computer adage: If you haven't tested it, you may as well not have made the backup.

See also "Schofield's second law" (including the quotes in the net search) for related enlightemnents. Disengage lecture mode.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 02:48 AM

Version 22H2 update shown on my PCs but not Mrs Bonzo's running Win 10 home for some reason?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 01:41 PM

Different hardware?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Oct 22 - 01:55 PM

Could be

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 02:30 AM

The thing that bugged me most about Windows 11 was that I couldn't find the "Start" button since it got moved to the middle. I came across an article that said I could right-click a blank space on the taskbar, select "taskbar settings" and then "taskbar behavior" on the bottom of the list, and then "left" for "taskbar alignment." Now the "Start" button is back on the lower-left corner of my screen, where I'm used to finding it.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 03:29 AM

Support for Win 8 ended this month, so no more security updates. Win 7 support ended 3 years ago unless you paid for it, and it still has a 10% share.

Win 10 has a 68% share and will be supported till October 2025, which could well be extended. Win 11 currently has 17%.

This is the end, Windows 7 and 8 friends: Microsoft drops support this week

You can no longer buy Win 10, though it's apparantly easy to find a downloadable copy. A lot of them will be booby trapped. Win 11 won't run on 32 bit PCs if you still have one of those.

Meanwhile Microsoft is trying to make Office less of a target for malware.

Microsoft closes another door to attackers by blocking Excel XLL files from the internet

Microsoft is checking everyone's bags for unsupported Office installs

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 02:40 PM

Win11 was installed on the computers at the museum where I volunteer, so I'm getting a look at how it works. Nothing particularly impressive there, and as Joe points out, I have to hunt to find the Start button to log out my account on a community computer.

I'll keep my eyes open for Win12.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: meself
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 02:56 PM

This modern world often has me pondering deep and ultimately unanswerable questions such as: Why wouldn't they just leave the 'start button' over in the lower left corner?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 03:23 PM

Stilly River Sage wrote: I have to hunt to find the Start button..

Windows key?
Or control-escape?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 03:26 PM

Dave, the reason there is such duplication of methods of doing things, as you illustrated, is because we all have our preferred approaches. For years I used a specialized keyboard that didn't have a Windows key, it was built to emulate the IBM Selectric keyboard. They did add the F keys at the top, but I have always been out of the habit of doing anything OTHER than mouse to the Windows start icon on the screen.

So, yes. I had to hunt for the icon.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 03:46 PM

Windows 10 is still available free from the Microsoft site using the Media Creation Tool.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Oct 23 - 11:28 PM

The Amazon Prime sale this week has given a half-off price on a 16T external backup drive, so I'll set it up to do a full backup (setting aside the smaller-capacity drive I have used) and then I'll see about updating to Windows 11. I didn't want to try it until I had a new full backup.

It's a good way to kill a weekend.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Oct 23 - 04:35 AM

No hurry:
Not even the ghost of obsolescence can coerce users onto Windows 11

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Oct 23 - 02:10 PM

I've had good luck with large hard drives at Costco. The problem is I can't find good info on the technical side: Modern large drives are supposed to have gone to SMR (shingle magnetic recording) but for a particular drive I don't know how to look up the tech data.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 02:17 PM

Just yesterday saw a 14TB Seagate HD in Costco. Holy Hannah.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Oct 23 - 07:59 AM

Lady Hillary and I are the cadre at our regional rummage sale computer department. A customer came in, tire kicking, and we discussed his needs. He had, a day or two previously, purchased a refurbished Windows 10 computer on eBay with a 500 gig hard drive for $350. He realized, after our discussion, that a: it was overpriced and b: since he stores almost everything in the cloud, he really does not need that large a hard drive. He ended up purchasing two 320 gig laptops @ $120 each and deciding to send back the other.
Unless you really need a lot of storage, a large hd is an affectation.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 Oct 23 - 09:29 AM

Techie Warning:

> Modern large drives are supposed to have gone to SMR (shingle
> magnetic recording)

Or HAMR (heat-assisted), or possibly both in the same drive.

> Unless you really need a lot of storage, a large hd is an affectation.

*Agree*. The problem here is that, once people have a huge drive, they neglect (and then forget) to throw away date-expired data, and then back up everything "just in case". I know I do.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Oct 23 - 12:55 PM

I want a hard drive to store the entire OS and data so the thing can be restored with everything installed. You can't do that kind of backup on the cloud (at least not that I've found - if one exists, please tell me).

I store my photos on the cloud (in space I rent annually at Microsoft).

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Oct 23 - 02:10 PM

I've had good luck with large hard drives at Costco. The problem is I can't find good info on the technical side: Modern large drives are supposed to have gone to SMR (shingle magnetic recording) but for a particular drive I don't know how to look up the tech data.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 02:17 PM

Just yesterday saw a 14TB Seagate HD in Costco. Holy Hannah.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Oct 23 - 11:28 PM

The Amazon Prime sale this week has given a half-off price on a 16T external backup drive, so I'll set it up to do a full backup (setting aside the smaller-capacity drive I have used) and then I'll see about updating to Windows 11. I didn't want to try it until I had a new full backup.

It's a good way to kill a weekend.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Oct 23 - 07:59 AM

Lady Hillary and I are the cadre at our regional rummage sale computer department. A customer came in, tire kicking, and we discussed his needs. He had, a day or two previously, purchased a refurbished Windows 10 computer on eBay with a 500 gig hard drive for $350. He realized, after our discussion, that a: it was overpriced and b: since he stores almost everything in the cloud, he really does not need that large a hard drive. He ended up purchasing two 320 gig laptops @ $120 each and deciding to send back the other.
Unless you really need a lot of storage, a large hd is an affectation.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: DaveRo
Date: 11 Oct 23 - 04:35 AM

No hurry:
Not even the ghost of obsolescence can coerce users onto Windows 11

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Oct 23 - 12:55 PM

I want a hard drive to store the entire OS and data so the thing can be restored with everything installed. You can't do that kind of backup on the cloud (at least not that I've found - if one exists, please tell me).

I store my photos on the cloud (in space I rent annually at Microsoft).

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 Oct 23 - 09:29 AM

Techie Warning:

> Modern large drives are supposed to have gone to SMR (shingle
> magnetic recording)

Or HAMR (heat-assisted), or possibly both in the same drive.

> Unless you really need a lot of storage, a large hd is an affectation.

*Agree*. The problem here is that, once people have a huge drive, they neglect (and then forget) to throw away date-expired data, and then back up everything "just in case". I know I do.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Dec 23 - 05:58 PM

Aha! A whiff of news about Windows 12 (you know they were going to do it!)

Windows 12 FAQ: Yes, it's coming in 2024 (and more surprising predictions)
Microsoft isn't talking, but I've collected rumors, speculation, and wild-ass guesses about the next version of Windows in this FAQ to help you get ready.
From ZDNet

Well, Windows as a Service was fun while it lasted. Microsoft buried that idea once and for all with the release of Windows 11 in 2021. And judging by the latest crop of rumors, it appears we're now back on a schedule that includes a new major version of Windows every three years. Next up: Windows 12, sometime in 2024.
Microsoft is being typically close-mouthed about its plans for the next version of Windows, of course. But the rumor mill has been working overtime in recent months, helped along by some (perhaps strategic) leaks from partners that suggest we will indeed get yet another "big bang" release in 2024, roughly three years after the launch of Windows 11.

What can you expect from Windows 12?
I've got some predictions based on more than 30 years of experience with the operating system everyone loves to hate.

Seriously, Windows 12?
OK, I guess that's technically a question, so the judges will allow it.

Windows 11 was a (more or less) complete surprise from Microsoft. With that as precedent, though, the idea of a new major release is considerably less surprising. A new version number offers marketing possibilities that Redmond can exploit along with its hardware partners (HP, Lenovo, and Dell, primarily). It also offers an excuse to rev up consumers and business customers. So, expect to see some TV ads pitching new features in familiar form factors in the new year.

Will Microsoft include AI features in Windows 12?
Oh, this one's easy. Of course Windows 12 will be chock-full of AI features because that's what Microsoft is doing with everything now. The Copilot feature is already available as a preview in Windows 11 and Windows 10, and there's no doubt it will continue to expand its capabilities over time.

Will Microsoft's customers find those features valuable or useful? Will they generate enough revenue to satisfy Microsoft shareholders? Those are still open questions.

One thing you can reasonably expect is that new PCs designed for Windows 12 will include hardware features, including custom neural processing units that are optimized for the AI features in Windows. Microsoft has already included this support in its Arm-powered Surface Pro, and the company has built its own Arm-based processors to make Azure better at handling AI-related tasks. I expect to see some of those silicon features trickle down to the Surface PC line in the Windows 12 era.

Will the hardware requirements change for Windows 12?
One of the most turbulent changes in Windows 11 was a new set of hardware requirements that essentially locked out older hardware. I'm betting that Microsoft won't make major changes to that hardware baseline with Windows 12. All of those PCs should be fully capable of running what will probably be a minor upgrade in the form of Windows 12.

Don't be surprised, though, to see some new hardware requirements for specific AI-based features (speech and image processing, for example), but any PC that meets the requirements for Windows 11 should perform acceptably on Windows 12.

Is Microsoft going to get more serious about Arm-based PCs?

Yes. I expect the next generation of Windows PCs to be a huge step up in performance, battery life, and manageability. Intel has every right to be nervous about what's coming, as I noted earlier in this article. Qualcomm couldn't deliver its SoCs in time for the fall 2023 cycle, but they will certainly be ready for Windows 12.

If the Nuvia acquisition delivers for Qualcomm, that device should have performance and battery life that are close to Apple's devices and could pass the "good enough" test, especially at lower price points. That launch might even be accompanied by a preview of Windows 12, with some Arm-specific enhancements.

Qualcomm's long-rumored Snapdragon Elite X chip was officially announced in October, and should be available by mid-2024, just in time for a Windows 12 debut. The company says its new chip can match the performance of Intel's fastest laptop CPU while using nearly 70% less power. AMD and Nvidia are also reportedly working on Arm-based designs that will be ready in 2025.

What changes can we expect in the Windows 12 user experience (UX)?
I don't expect to see any major UX changes in Windows 12. Everything that was introduced in Windows 11 feels like a baseline. It's reasonable to anticipate that we will see refinements to those Windows 11 UX features, specifically addressing some complaints of longtime Windows users, including the capability to move the taskbar to the top or side of the primary display.

Several veteran Windows watchers have speculated that Windows 12 will add a floating search bar and move some elements of the taskbar to the top of the screen, making the Windows experience more Mac-like. More than a year ago, Windows Central's Zac Bowden spotted those elements from a design prototype of Windows 12 in a Microsoft presentation at its Ignite conference. It's also possible that these changes will appear as user-configurable options alongside the more familiar Windows 11 UX.

Will Windows 12 run all my old Windows apps?
One of the core selling points of Windows through the years has been its relentless focus on backward compatibility with apps and services. I predict that won't change in 2024.

I do, however, expect to see Microsoft ratchet up its security over older apps, which represent a perennial security threat to anyone who uses a Windows PC. The company has been quietly running virtual PCs in its own cloud, under the Windows 365 moniker, for several years. On local hardware, it's invested a ton of resources in virtualizing core Windows functions so they're less vulnerable to traditional attacks.

You can expect both of these efforts to step up big time in Windows 12. On Arm-based PCs, in particular, don't be surprised to see features that run legacy Win32 apps in virtual sessions that are sandboxed to prevent them from tampering with the operating system. That will annoy malware developers, but it should be a net positive for anyone using a Windows PC.

What will be the official name of the next version of Windows?
I suppose it's possible that someone in Redmond could convince the powers that be to go back to doing dumb names instead of version numbers (Me, XP, Vista). But since Windows 7 in 2009, it's been all numbers, and that's where the smart money is placing its bets. If you're looking for a longshot bet, put a few bucks on Microsoft including the word Copilot in the product's official name.

When will Windows 12 be available to the public?
For the official public release, I've carved out a three-month window in my calendar, starting in late July and extending to late October. Those are the traditional H2 dates when Microsoft releases a new Windows version, and there's no reason to expect that to change this time around. Insider builds should appear roughly three months before the final release, maybe a bit longer.

Will Windows 12 expand support for running Android apps?
This has been one of the most tantalizing rumors to me. The Windows 11 Subsystem for Android is more of a proof of concept than a productivity booster, thanks to its most serious limitation: The only apps it can install are those in Amazon's meager app store.

The most obvious way to expand this capability is to open access to the Google Play Store for the Android on Windows subsystem. Given the eternally fraught nature of the relationship between Google and Microsoft, it's hard to imagine that the two companies can work out that deal. But ... never say never?

How much will Windows 12 cost?
Historically, most people buy Windows on a new PC and never pay Microsoft directly. I don't expect that fact to change in the Windows 12 era, nor do I expect Microsoft to raise its prices in this economy.

I don't usually do a long copy/paste of these articles, but sometimes they go away, so I thought I'd keep the whole thing here for reference.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11 - (12!)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Dec 23 - 02:56 PM

Running this up to the top again with a hint of the change in the title. Does anyone else tend to skip an OS with Windows and do every other one?

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11 - (12!)
From: Ed.
Date: 28 Dec 23 - 02:15 PM

Does anyone else tend to skip an OS with Windows and do every other one?

It's not a strategy that I've ever used, although I've missed a couple along the way. It might be a good idea, but that depends where you started, I think.

If you'd decided to install Windows ME, ignored XP, went straight to Vista, followed by Windows 8, then possibly not...

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11 - (12!)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Dec 23 - 02:30 PM

You're right about that! I skipped ME (used Win2000/NT), never had Vista, kept Win7 in play a long time so mostly skipped Win8, and am still using Win10.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11 - (12!)
From: DaveRo
Date: 29 Dec 23 - 03:49 AM

I've never seen Windows 11, but from what I've read it seems not to be so much an operating system - for running programs or apps - but more an advertising platform. Microsoft makes most of its money (from ordinary PC buyers, as opposed to businesses) from selling cloud services and subscription software - such as One Drive and Office 365 - so it pushes people into using those. Google obviously does the same with ChromeOS, of course. Does Apple? Dunno; I haven't used a Mac since the original one in the 80's. But my impression is that MacOS is the nearest thing to an Operating System these days.

I'm not sure when this first happened. Win 8? My wife runs Win 10 and it offers weather forecasts (useless) and 'suggests' content she 'might like', which is irritating and intrusive. It's still possible to run without a Microsoft Account, but it needs extra work.

Microsoft is investing heavily in AI, and that piece about Windows 12 suggests that AI might be the main reason for its (apparantly) sudden appearance. Microsoft are building PCs with Neural Processing Units (NPUs) to speed up AI. What AI? In Windows itself? So you need an operating system to support new hardware which is used by ... the operating system? What's the benefit for the PC user?

The only reason my wife needs Windows (she ran Linux for 3 months at my suggestion) is for Powerpoint; the LibreOffice equivalent, Impress, is just not good enough. Hopefully she'll stop needing that before the end of 2025. The 2012 laptop is still working fine.

Subject: RE: Tech: They lied, Here's Windows 11 - (12!)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jan 24 - 03:09 PM

From PC Magazine:

Microsoft Needs to Get Serious About Its Windows 10 Upgrade Problem
By October 2025, more than a billion PCs will be running a dead operating system, leaving many computers vulnerable to malware or headed for the trash. What's Microsoft going to do about it?

The Windows 10-pocalypse is a short two years away. On Oct. 14, 2025, Microsoft will stop issuing security updates for Windows 10 PCs, at which point most of the world’s PCs—about one billion computers—will be running a dead operating system, like Windows XP. And most of those computers can't upgrade to Windows 11.

Microsoft Is Abandoning Most PCs on the Planet
Half of the readers of my Windows Intelligence newsletter are still using Windows 10 on their primary PC. The one billion estimate comes from two sources: Microsoft, which has said there are more than 1.4 billion Windows PCs, and Statcounter, which shows that the vast majority of PCs on the planet—more than 70%—run Windows 10.

Worse yet, this isn’t like when Microsoft stopped supporting Windows 7. Those PCs could upgrade to Windows 10, but this time around, many Windows 10 PCs don't support Windows 11, at least not officially. If you can't afford to buy a new PC, you'll be left out in the cold after Oct. 14, 2025. From a security perspective, it’ll be as if you were using Windows XP or Windows 7.