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BS: Another shooting in US

Donuel 18 Jul 21 - 07:31 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jul 21 - 08:47 AM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jul 21 - 11:08 AM
Donuel 18 Jul 21 - 02:22 PM
SPB-Cooperator 18 Jul 21 - 05:23 PM
keberoxu 18 Jul 21 - 06:28 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 May 22 - 07:16 PM
Bonzo3legs 25 May 22 - 01:30 AM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 06:32 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 May 22 - 07:25 AM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 07:37 AM
Backwoodsman 25 May 22 - 07:44 AM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 08:16 AM
Steve Shaw 25 May 22 - 08:44 AM
MaJoC the Filk 25 May 22 - 09:00 AM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 09:00 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 May 22 - 09:17 AM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 09:24 AM
Stilly River Sage 25 May 22 - 09:44 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 May 22 - 09:59 AM
Stilly River Sage 25 May 22 - 10:23 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 May 22 - 10:50 AM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 12:14 PM
saulgoldie 25 May 22 - 01:27 PM
MaJoC the Filk 25 May 22 - 01:45 PM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 02:04 PM
MaJoC the Filk 25 May 22 - 02:20 PM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 02:24 PM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 02:28 PM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 04:03 PM
Steve Shaw 25 May 22 - 04:11 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 May 22 - 04:22 PM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 04:45 PM
Backwoodsman 25 May 22 - 06:16 PM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 07:47 PM
Donuel 25 May 22 - 08:45 PM
Backwoodsman 26 May 22 - 03:31 AM
Donuel 27 May 22 - 09:15 AM
Backwoodsman 27 May 22 - 09:47 AM
leeneia 27 May 22 - 03:37 PM
Bonzo3legs 27 May 22 - 04:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 27 May 22 - 04:28 PM
Manitas_at_home 27 May 22 - 04:57 PM
Donuel 27 May 22 - 05:00 PM
Donuel 27 May 22 - 05:09 PM
Backwoodsman 27 May 22 - 05:11 PM
keberoxu 27 May 22 - 09:46 PM
keberoxu 27 May 22 - 10:16 PM
Donuel 27 May 22 - 11:03 PM
Donuel 28 May 22 - 03:44 PM
Steve Shaw 28 May 22 - 06:11 PM
Bonzo3legs 28 May 22 - 06:41 PM
Donuel 28 May 22 - 10:21 PM
Donuel 28 May 22 - 11:16 PM
SPB-Cooperator 29 May 22 - 03:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 May 22 - 04:52 AM
Mrrzy 29 May 22 - 11:03 AM
Stilly River Sage 29 May 22 - 05:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 May 22 - 05:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 May 22 - 05:22 PM
SPB-Cooperator 29 May 22 - 06:20 PM
Bill D 29 May 22 - 07:48 PM
keberoxu 29 May 22 - 09:06 PM
keberoxu 29 May 22 - 09:10 PM
Mrrzy 29 May 22 - 09:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 22 - 03:45 AM
Steve Shaw 30 May 22 - 05:32 AM
Backwoodsman 30 May 22 - 07:23 AM
Donuel 30 May 22 - 07:25 AM
Backwoodsman 30 May 22 - 07:44 AM
Donuel 30 May 22 - 09:54 AM
Bill D 30 May 22 - 01:49 PM
keberoxu 30 May 22 - 03:40 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 May 22 - 04:06 PM
Bill D 30 May 22 - 04:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 30 May 22 - 05:02 PM
Donuel 30 May 22 - 10:32 PM
SPB-Cooperator 31 May 22 - 05:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 May 22 - 06:41 AM
Howard Jones 31 May 22 - 07:03 AM
Mrrzy 31 May 22 - 08:23 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 May 22 - 08:50 AM
Donuel 31 May 22 - 08:59 AM
Donuel 31 May 22 - 09:42 AM
MaJoC the Filk 31 May 22 - 11:18 AM
Stilly River Sage 31 May 22 - 11:30 AM
Donuel 31 May 22 - 12:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 May 22 - 02:13 PM
Steve Shaw 31 May 22 - 05:04 PM
Bill D 31 May 22 - 07:16 PM
Donuel 31 May 22 - 07:33 PM
Donuel 31 May 22 - 08:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 May 22 - 08:38 PM
Bill D 01 Jun 22 - 11:47 AM
Bill D 01 Jun 22 - 12:14 PM
Donuel 01 Jun 22 - 12:30 PM
Bill D 01 Jun 22 - 12:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 22 - 01:01 PM
Bill D 01 Jun 22 - 02:07 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Jun 22 - 05:15 PM
Donuel 01 Jun 22 - 07:17 PM
keberoxu 01 Jun 22 - 07:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 22 - 07:39 PM
Donuel 01 Jun 22 - 07:39 PM
Donuel 01 Jun 22 - 07:57 PM
Bill D 01 Jun 22 - 09:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jun 22 - 03:42 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jun 22 - 05:06 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Jun 22 - 05:57 AM
Mrrzy 02 Jun 22 - 08:46 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Jun 22 - 08:56 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 22 - 09:11 AM
Bonzo3legs 02 Jun 22 - 10:12 AM
robomatic 02 Jun 22 - 10:34 AM
Bill D 02 Jun 22 - 11:04 AM
Bill D 02 Jun 22 - 11:15 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jun 22 - 04:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 22 - 06:12 PM
Bill D 02 Jun 22 - 06:58 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jun 22 - 07:38 PM
Donuel 02 Jun 22 - 07:41 PM
Donuel 02 Jun 22 - 08:43 PM
Mrrzy 02 Jun 22 - 10:55 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Jun 22 - 04:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Jun 22 - 05:54 PM
Donuel 04 Jun 22 - 07:12 PM
Donuel 05 Jun 22 - 08:46 AM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Jun 22 - 09:02 AM
Stilly River Sage 05 Jun 22 - 10:38 AM
MaJoC the Filk 05 Jun 22 - 02:32 PM
robomatic 05 Jun 22 - 02:43 PM
Donuel 05 Jun 22 - 06:30 PM
Donuel 06 Jun 22 - 06:12 AM
SPB-Cooperator 06 Jun 22 - 03:26 PM
Mrrzy 08 Jun 22 - 10:15 AM
Donuel 09 Jun 22 - 07:16 AM
Donuel 09 Jun 22 - 12:43 PM
Stilly River Sage 15 Jun 22 - 11:58 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Jul 22 - 05:23 AM
leeneia 30 Jul 22 - 02:17 PM
Donuel 30 Jul 22 - 02:48 PM
leeneia 04 Aug 22 - 04:39 PM
Donuel 04 Aug 22 - 04:55 PM

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Subject: BS: Baseball the US kind
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 07:31 AM

Only 3 were wounded. https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/17/us/washington-nationals-park-shooting-saturday/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Baseball the US kind
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 08:47 AM

It's called rounders here, and is played mainly by big lusty girls with slightly chapped thighs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Baseball the US kind
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 11:08 AM

This isn't typical at baseball games, but shootings are typical in the US. I'm changing the thread title.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 02:22 PM

Isolated incident. All the shootings here are isolated incidents because they all do not happen in the same place or time.
The gallows humor of 'Baseball-the US kind' is lost with title change. If it is about another shooting, 6 adults were wounded and one 6 year old girl was killed in a different drive through shooting in DC last night/


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 05:23 PM

Dropping into NRA speak - if the 6 year old had an assualt weapon, she could have took out every car driver and passenger in DC - just in case.
.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Jul 21 - 06:28 PM

This gallows humor isn't amusing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 May 22 - 07:16 PM

Uvlade, Texas, is over in the Hill Country of Central Texas and is a lovely rolling hills area with interesting small towns. It's southwest of the town of Utopia, with San Antonio as the nearest large city. It's on people's radar as a town near a couple of nice state parks, and now, alas, it is on the map because of a horrible shooting. Again. Last week a grocery store in Buffalo, since then several shootings with smaller numbers of victims, and now, another elementary school shot up.

14 Students, 1 Teacher Dead in Texas School Shooting
Gov. Greg Abbott, who announced the death toll, said the gunman was also dead. It was the deadliest elementary school shooting since the 2012 massacre in Newtown, Conn.

Even without reading the article but seeing the name of the shooter, it fits the classic pattern - the shooter is brown or black, so he's dead. The shooting in Buffalo was white, so he's alive. The news will sort it out to see if this is true, or just a truism.

Texas is bleeding guns; they're everywhere and no permits are needed. It's the fault of those people who felt that more would be better somehow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 May 22 - 01:30 AM

USAian idiocy, will they never learn?????????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 06:32 AM

We can not learn our way out of; insanity, cowardice, body armor, guns, craven politician, thoughts and prayers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in USa
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 22 - 07:25 AM

America- you have been asked over and over again - what is more important to you, your childrens' lives or your guns? Your excuse seems to be that the disease is so rife that it would take too much to cure - but until you start doing something the sure will never happen.

It is your simple choice start doing something about it, or just admit that kids being massacred doesn't matter to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 07:37 AM

Of course it hasn't mattered. Only 90% are for gun safety.

Even Republicans have to be an elected official to be for gun proliferation.

An enraged 18 year old is a well organized miitia according to the High Court.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 May 22 - 07:44 AM

Three words for our US friends - ‘Hungerford’, ‘Dunblane’, and ‘Port Arthur’.

Why those three? Because following each of those gun-massacres, two in the UK, the third in Australia, our governments acted with courage and strength to remove firearms from the ownership of the general public (except in very specific circumstances, and then subject to very stringent controls).

Wilfully-blind gun-nut Americans refuse steadfastly to acknowledge the correlation between availability of firearms and the number of gun-deaths in our three respective countries, but it is an absolute, undeniable (except by the delusional and stupid) fact that countries with strong gun-controls suffer significantly fewer deaths by shooting than those, like the US, who allow virtually any Tom, Dick, and Harry (or Harriet, for that matter) to arm themselves to the teeth. There’s no need to quote the statistics here, they are readily available on the internet for anyone who cares sufficiently about the scourge of shootings in the US to check out

The US needs to take a lead from the governments of the UK and Australia, grow a set of cojones, and take guns out of their citizens’ hands - no ordinary person living in a civilised country ‘needs’ a gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 08:16 AM

NYT https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/24/us/shooting-robb-elementary-uvalde


"Its too soon to talk about this"
Sen. Mitch McConnel

The NRA convention with Trump in Houston this weekend is silently glad that the victims lately have been old blacks and young kids with Mexican names.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 22 - 08:44 AM

I wish that US politicians (I give up hope apropos of the gun lobby) would hang on to every word of Joe Biden's statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 May 22 - 09:00 AM

Backwoodsman: I don't know about Australia, but I heard once that the UK started clamping down on guns after the end of WW2, mainly because Them In Power knew that there wasn't much longer they could continue with the death sentence on the statute books. The names Ruth Ellis and Timothy Evans come to mind; there's probably others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 09:00 AM

The amnesia clock is ticking.
In 10 days the awareness of the recent 'incident' will be half and in 20 days it will be all but a stastistic.

Trump could turn the amnesia clock back a bit with another 'good people on both sides' speech at the NRA tnis weekend. Republicans are in general amnesia clock watchers. Biden will be accused of politisizing a tragedy for politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 May 22 - 09:17 AM

MaJoc - the death penalty is hardly an effective deterrent, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 09:24 AM

We got this.
Candles will be lit. Moments of silence will be quiet. Memorials of flowers and stuffed animals will be piled up. Prayers will be offered.
More guns will be sold.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 22 - 09:44 AM

The gun lobby stirs up their followers after every mass shooting: "They're coming for our guns now, so you'd better buy more!" and sales go up. It is insanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 22 - 09:59 AM

I think maybe we have to accept that America thinks different from us on this subject.

Its a bit like arguing with the Taliban. Or how South Africa used to be. they just see things differently from us, and they're entitled to and we have to accept it.

Its not really a case of reasoning. They've heard all the arguments and they disagree with us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 May 22 - 10:23 AM

Not everyone accepts and agrees. And this is another case of governing by the minority - because, for starters, the Democrats can't seem to ditch the filibuster in the senate even though the GOP doesn't blink twice at dropping it to get their way when they hold that majority. So good legislation by the Democrats is blocked by a single GOP member if the 60 vote threshold can't be met.

Blame Mitch McConnell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 22 - 10:50 AM

Well I daresay - not everyone agrees with the Taliban.
Just like not everyone agreed with Brexit. Its in the nature of things we don't all agree about everything.

The thing is though - is there the collective will to try and change things? You wouldn't really have thought that South Africa would change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 12:14 PM

Change will be minimal and slow.

If you think the gears of justice grind slowly; the electoral process, voter obstruction, loopholes, gerrymandering, lobbying/bribing, filibusters and Court challenges are tectonic.

A dictator and liquor are quicker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: saulgoldie
Date: 25 May 22 - 01:27 PM

I wrote the following letter that I am sending to a bunch of Representatives. If others also sent it or their own letters, emails, made phone calls, visited in person, we would have something.

Here is my letter:

* * * * *

Dear (Representative So and So),
As if we need another reminder that there is a screaming need for some way to combat rampant gun violence…

If there were something regular citizens could do, you know we would. But you are the one who makes and implements the laws. And you have an obligation to act in the best interests of not only your literal constituents, but of your constituents at large in the rest of the country.

Now, naturally, everyone will trot out their pet explanations, solutions, and meaningless “thoughts and prayers.” Mental health problems. Not enough religion. Too much religion. Drug use. Too many guns in the wrong places. Not enough guns in the right places. Not enough discipline in schools, at home, and in the courts. Too much discipline. Not enough jobs. Wealth inequity. And whatever. But it would be best if there were some reliable studies that would guide us to better solutions, rather than just knee-jerk ideas.

But Congress is prevented from doing this, because: The Tiahrt Amendment, and the Dickey Amendment prevent Congress from even investigating the numbers and the causes of gun violence. As a representative of the people who cannot individually make things happen, you must repeal these two amendments and commit to honest study of the problem of gun violence. Gun violence that is vastly greater than any other first world nation, and even many second and third world nations. And once we know from reliable investigation, then we can take the appropriate steps, pass the appropriate laws, make the useful policies to implement a plan, and finally deal honestly and effectively with the horrible problem.

I know this is possible. I know that you can do it! Please let me know that you will do it! Thank you.


Sincerely,


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 May 22 - 01:45 PM

SPB> the death penalty is hardly an effective deterrent, is it?

I believe it used to be at least partially effective in the UK; witness the slow rise in murders, manslaughter, gun crime etc since its abolition. Statistics to help disambiguate this point will be warmly welcomed. (Outraged headlines don't count, as by definition they don't reflect business as usual, otherwise they wouldn't sell newspapers. But that's a rant for another day.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 02:04 PM

Govenor Abbott from Texas is congratulating and celebrating the success of law enforcement. He said "What the victims families need above all else is your love".

Beto O'Rourke then confronted the Govenor saying "you have done nothing to prevent this. This was totally predictable"   and was told by the Lt Govenor "you are out of line, you are a sick son of a bitch by making this a political issue, you are an asshole" Beto O'Rourke was then escorted out of the news conference.

The Govenor rambled on about about families and the Lt. Govenor said now is not the time...evil will always walk among us...can't we all just get along.

Facebook only had 30 minutes of warning from the posts from the gunman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 May 22 - 02:20 PM

Good on yer, saulgoldie, but I fear the statistics are against you ("It's only you saying this, nyet, tovarishch?"). This side of the Puddle, 43% of the popular vote was deemed to be a thumping majority for the Thatcher gvt, and 51% voting for (*akkh* *phht*) Brexit was thereafter represented as "the voice of the people". Our local chocolate teapot parliamentary representative doesn't even reply to Herself's carefully polite letters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 02:24 PM

The Govenor went on to put the shooting soley on the shoulders of mental health. "For 60 years Texas has had the legal carry law for   long guns, and never have we had an incident like this!"

Really?

He did not (would not) answer the question of canceling the Trump NRA convention.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 02:28 PM

watch this


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 04:03 PM

According to the Lt. Govenor of Texas everyone on this thread is an out of line sick son ofa bitch asshole.
I respectfully disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 22 - 04:11 PM

"I believe it used to be at least partially effective in the UK; witness the slow rise in murders, manslaughter, gun crime etc since its abolition"

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 May 22 - 04:22 PM

well its a modest proposal - saulgoldie.

I'm not really sure examining the facts is really where its at.

I didn't give up smoking in public til I was confronted and forbad from doing it by law.
If the death of all those kids doesn't persuade your opponents - mere facts, how ever presented certainly wont.
You will need to be even more determined to prevail through democratic process than those arraigned against you. Its not worth wasting your breath on arguing with those who will never listen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 04:45 PM

No, I would not give you false hope
On this strange and mournful day
But the mother and child reunion
Is only a google away
Oh, little darling of mine
I can't for the life of me
Remember a sadder day
I know they say let it be
But it just don't work out that way
And the course of a lifetime runs
Over and over again
No, I would not give you false hope (no)
On this strange and mournful day
But the mother and child reunion
Is only a scrap book away
Oh, little darling of mine
I just can't believe it's so
Though it seems strange to say
I never been laid so low
In such a mysterious way
And the course of a lifetime runs
Over and over again
But I would not give you false hope (no)
On this strange and mournful day
When mother and child disunion
Is only a gunman away
Oh, oh, the mother and child disunion
Is only a motion away
Oh, the mother and child sad ruin
Is only a moment away (oh oh)
Oh, the mother and child disunion
Is only a bullet away


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 May 22 - 06:16 PM

You’re dead right, Al.

Here’s what I said on the ‘Buffalo Shootings’ thread about the extreme difficulty inherent in persuading Americans they don’t ‘need’ firearms…

”You’re dead right, SPB, but it ain’t gonna change.Most Americans are brainwashed from birth to believe that it’s their ‘right’ to be armed to the teeth, to shoot the guy who comes through the window to steal their laptop, and to ‘protect’ themselves against ‘the bad guys’ and the ‘mad-dog killers’.. They simply cannot conceive of a country with a population of ~65 million where hardly anybody, not even the police, is armed and where the annual number of deaths by shooting (including suicides) averages <100.

In order to rid the US of its guns, you would need to reverse the psyche that dictates that no-one is ‘safe’ without a gun. Not gonna happen any time soon, certainly not in my lifetime.

It’s so, so sad.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 07:47 PM

ooo-baby baby its a wild world
You're liable to be shot while a child
ooo-baby baby its a wild world
You never know when you end as a child girl.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 22 - 08:45 PM

Saul Goldie's proposal is more practical and productive than my brand of cynical witacisms. Racanteurism is out of fashion as rhetoric 'largely shrinks' to one dimension on social media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 May 22 - 03:31 AM

Well there’s at least one American who ‘gets it’…

Cheryl Wheeler - ‘If It We’re Up To Me’


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 22 - 09:15 AM

Its about 90%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 22 - 09:47 AM

But that 90% continue to allow the 10% to call the shots (pun intended) - that’s what those of us living in civilised countries find difficult to rationalise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: leeneia
Date: 27 May 22 - 03:37 PM

Guns aren't the problem. Rage is the problem.

People have had guns since the 17th Century. Lots of Americans have guns they will never use or use only for target practice. In the UK, where guns are hard to get, knifings are dreadfully on the rise.

An enraged man who can't get a gun uses a bomb, commits arson, or drives a car into the crowd.

These are some things I believe are behind the rage:

the breakdown of the family.
attendant child abuse and neglect, which produces people who cannot
think well and have not learned to care about other people.
alcohol and illegal drugs.
hours and hours of violence in TV, movies, computer games.
lack of mental-health care
right-wing rhetoric stirring up fear and racism.
websites where manipulators groom the vulnerable to kill.

The shooter in Parkland Florida was so stupid that he could not operate a microwaves or clothes dryer. Yet somehow he got hold of sophisticated weapons and ammo and knew how to load them. He was wily enough to enter the school against traffic when students were leaving at the end of the day.

Somebody taught him to do that, probably somebody on the Internet. It's time to start exposing these people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 May 22 - 04:11 PM

Why the GOP is quick to enact laws banning abortion but not guns is strange?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 22 - 04:28 PM

The National Rifle Association (NRA) has been very generous in their campaign contributions to the GOP. That's why. And right-to-lifers have been very generous in donations to the GOP. That is also why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 27 May 22 - 04:57 PM

Apparently UK knife crime still doesn't reach the levels seen in the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 22 - 05:00 PM

Even Mitt Romney has received 6 million from the NRA in his lifetime.

TX gov Abbott brags that a Republican donor will pay all funeral costs for the kids. Insurance claims, unemployment benefits and health insurance will be expedited. After slashing 211 million from mental health programs he is doubling down on mental health. The govenor pledges the shooting will not be an inconveinience or added expense.
Even if someone's glasses were broken in the shooting they will be covered.
He is livid livid livid about the false reports that the police responded immediately when it really took 90 minutes.

It sounds to me that he really doesn't give a fuck about the shooting but wants to sound like a person who cares.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 22 - 05:09 PM

"Rest assured anyone who claims guns are the problem are wrong, misled and are not looking at the facts."
Gov. Abbott

well that should settle that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 May 22 - 05:11 PM

Apparently UK knife crime still doesn't reach the levels seen in the USA.

224 deaths by a sharp instrument (including knives and broken bottles) in the UK in the year ended March 2021.
Source: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04304/

1,739 deaths by knives or cutting instruments in the US in the year 2020.
Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 May 22 - 09:46 PM

You know,
the first time I ever heard of the NRA was in a recording of
the "Bonnie and Clyde" song with lyrics supposedly by Bonnie Parker.
Somebody had to explain to me what the lyrics meant by saying
"We have joined the NRA."

Latest thing in the news is the fact that the annual NRA national convention is just about to be held.
And a bunch of musicians had been lined up to perform and sing.
And a bunch of them are, in fact, pulling out.

What the blankety-blank was Don McLean doing, in the first place, agreeing to sing at the NRA convention? I didn't think he would take their money to perform for them in the first place, with the sort of lyrics he publishes and performs? Well, I guess I am the last to know things, and everybody else knows that he is -- was in the NRA's pocket.

Because now Don McLean has announced that, no,
he has pulled out, and will not sing at the NRA Convention.
And neither will Lee Greenwood,
who was expected to sing "God Bless the USA";
he has gone on the Fox television network to say that he had been engaged,
and he has withdrawn his participation at the NRA convention entertainment.
A few other singers and entertainers whose names I do not recognize,
people I don't associate, again, with Don McLean.

And the fact that they refuse to sing for the NRA ... is national news.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 May 22 - 10:16 PM

Here is a link to coverage on CNN
of the story from the preceding post on this thread.

Cheri Mossberg reporting for CNN


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 22 - 11:03 PM

There are a mixed bag of possible solutions. Some are better than others.
Raise the age of buying mass killing guns and ammo to 21.
Ban all AR's and magazines of cop killing armor piercing bullets
Do what Australia and New Zealand did.
Do what has worked since 1950. Mutually Assured Destruction by thermonuclear bombs.
Harden schools.
Arm teachers.
Arm students.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 28 May 22 - 03:44 PM

leenia is not saying guns don't kill people, people do. She is talking about emotions and the human brain, about thoughts and behaviors that stem from rage in our brain. First what is a thought? In is a constructed model that comes from our brains. Models are first created in the hippocampus and model processes are judged and stored in a hundred and 50 thousand or so areas in the neo cortex. Why all these models? Any life that moves has an advantage when it knows where it was and where it is. Predictions help refine our models. Now further down the rabbit hole of neurology is the emotions processed by the brain stem and thalamus. It is a problem as you see and will take a long time to figure out how a network of so many judging areas can work harmoniously. Its as though we have thousands of brains but ordered in a way you can cut a brain in half and it still functions with all its models. Anyway its a deep problem. Right now it is easier to take the sharp tip off our spears than change our brains.

We learn our models in our lifetime. An individual brain can not do what collective brains can do and are prone to disruption at various stages. The wiring does not finish until 21.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 22 - 06:11 PM

One day, someone will tell us what you're talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 May 22 - 06:41 PM

You can have as many guns as you like in Texas, but you are not allowed more than six dildos!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Idiot's guide to shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 28 May 22 - 10:21 PM

Blaming rage is blaming the brain.
It's easier and better to blame guns right now.

The theory of 1,000 brains is for neurologists and biology fans.
https://numenta.com/a-thousand-brains-by-jeff-hawkins


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 28 May 22 - 11:16 PM

I would diagnoses a faulty hyper pathway from the amygdala of the shooter and abnormal disjointed mapping in the neo cortex.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 May 22 - 03:08 AM

Once again we are seeing the ridiculous argument that teachers need to arm themselves to protect students.

Let's drill down on that:

(1)The shooter probably entered the classroom assault rifle in hand, ready to kill, so the teacher, in order to stop the shoot would need have a gun in his/her hand at all times while teaching.

(2) The shooter in this case has body armour - so are we talking about teachers having armour piercing firearms - and don't they give quite a recoil?

(3) If teachers do not have armour piercing firearms, would they then have to aim for the head which is a much smaller moving target?

(4) If a teacher has to make a split second decision - would they be at risk of overacting and shooting an unarmed person?

(5) I am going to assume that those in professions that require discharging firearms are trained to shoot to kill given the situation - and those who join the police, for example, do so in the knowledge that there is a chance that they may need to do so as part of their work and that requires training. Would learning how to shoot to kill if needed then become a standard part of teacher training?

(6) An assumption on my part - armed response police are trained to assess a situation so they don't go in all guns blazing which could massively increase the number of deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 22 - 04:52 AM

If one of my grandkids hits someone with a stick I don't blame the stick but I certainly take it away! No one is blaming the guns. It is putting them in the hands of the wrong people that causes the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 May 22 - 11:03 AM

It isn't the guns. Loads of places have guns.

It isn't mental illness. That is everywhere.

It is that Americans are raised with the sincerely held belief that violence is a *reasonable* response to insult or discomfort.

We have the right to *pursue* happiness, but act as if we had the right to happiness itself.

Murricans teach their kids to *fight* everything. War on drugs, war on terror.

How about *fixing* things? Or healing things? Or curing things?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 May 22 - 05:06 PM

Uvalde librarian thought about canceling storytime. Instead, she made it a refuge
Staff members at the Uvalde, Texas, library decided the community needed a safe space for children after the mass shooting at Robb Elementary School.
Initially Mendell Morgan, the public library director, thought about closing on Wednesday, out of respect for those who’d lost their children. Ultimately he decided to keep the library open. At a time when librarians across the country have faced baseless allegations and threats of criminal charges from parents who’ve accused them of providing pornography to children, Morgan wanted to show the community what, in his view, a library really is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 22 - 05:13 PM

No Mrrzy, it is not guns and it is not people. It is placing guns in the hands of the wrong people. It really is quite simple - make guns extemely difficult to get hold of and you will drastically reduce the number of these incidents. In my memory we have had 2 mass shootings in the UK. Hungerford in 1987 and Dublane in 1996. Nothing like that since as private guns have effectively been banned. Of course criminals will still get hold of them. Of course people can kill without guns. But there is nothing like the scale of what happens there anywhere else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 May 22 - 05:22 PM

Sorry, "placing guns in the hands of the wrong people" is not clear enough. I should have put "Allowing the wrong people to get guns so easily"


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 May 22 - 06:20 PM

Guns fall into the hands of the wrong people because:

(1) It is too easy for people to get guns
(2) If guns are got by the right people they can still be passed on to wrong people.
(3) A right person who has a gun, might become a wrong person in the future.
(4) Wrong people can only be identified as those who are known to be wrong people.

Is America suggesting that the yardstick for gun ownership should be whether or not they have a track record for wasting schoolchildren?

Would those who advocate ownership of firearms to put there own children into a ballot for there own children to be executed on a one to one basis for each murdered child as they do not seem to have a problem about allowing their own people to own the means to murder other peoples children.

No, I am not seriously proposing the above - I am just trying to highlight the double standards of the gun lobbyists who put their rights above other people's children but are probably hypocrites when it comes to their own families.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 29 May 22 - 07:48 PM

"...Americans are raised with the sincerely held belief that violence is a *reasonable* response to insult or discomfort."

**SOME** Americans are raised in situations where that is common. It is not a regular thing. One problem is that it is not considered PC to note the cultural groups where such attitudes are prevalent. (No, they are not all 'racial', but that is one reason that proposed solutions are phrased a bit ambiguously...especially in Congress.)

I posted this on Facebook to illustrate what any attempts to deal with guns is up against..

"Most people with already set opinions forget what 'militia' meant when the 2nd Amendment was written. The new govt. had no standing army.. but the British had a history of organized militias, so the word was useful in referring to 'citizens' coming together quickly and performing temporary duty. These were expected to have their own, non-standard long guns, as there was little or no armory to hand out weapons.
From this site:https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/interpretation/amendment-ii/interps/99
"The onset of war does not always allow time to raise and train an army, and the Revolutionary War showed that militia forces could not be relied on for national defense. The Constitutional Convention therefore decided that the federal government should have almost unfettered authority to establish peacetime standing armies and to regulate the militia."
The framers and authors of the 2nd amendment could not conceive of standardized weapons and ammunition, much less the advanced stuff of today. It wasn't until the era just before and during the Civil War that creation of standardized guns began. Everyone knows they would not have phrase it in a way that was clear then, but ambiguous today..... but those who covet their guns simply will NOT admit this, as it might lead to an amendment that limited what kinds of weapons were legal, when and by whom.
I am quite aware that the legal situation is now circular, as the courts, the Gerrymandered states, the rules for creating and approving a new amendment- plus the absurdity of the Electoral College will hamstring attempts for the foreseeable future..... and then there are several hundred million guns ...legal and illegal already out there."


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: keberoxu
Date: 29 May 22 - 09:06 PM

Forgive me if somebody already pointed this out.
The company which manufactured the make/model of weapon
used in the Uvalde school shootings
pulled out of the NRA convention,
at which this company was scheduled to join
Beretta, Smith & Wesson, Ruger, and other competitors at the Houston, Texas convention location's floor show.

The same company shut down its Twitter account after the shootings.
Now there is an outcry over the advertising campaign that put, on social media,
a promotion/advertisement labelled with a quote from scripture,
of a toddler cradling a rifle in his lap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: keberoxu
Date: 29 May 22 - 09:10 PM

Don McLean has stated that he supports the NRA because
he is a lifelong fan of Western films
which led him to horseback riding and gun collecting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 May 22 - 09:50 PM

As an example...Switzerland *requires* everyone to have a gun. Some Swiss are probably jerks, but it just doesn't occur to them that shooting anybody is a reasonable answer to discomfort.

Americans teach their kids to punch people who insult them.

I was raised on the notion that if you stoop to violence, you have lost both the battle of wits and tje moral high ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 May 22 - 03:45 AM

Massive difference in gun control laws between Switzerland and the USA though

Here's why


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 22 - 05:32 AM

Yes, and the Swiss flag is a big plus too. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 May 22 - 07:23 AM

”Yes, and the Swiss flag is a big plus too. :-)

Good ‘un Steve! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 30 May 22 - 07:25 AM

Don't mess with Texas death https://www.businessinsider.com/greg-abbott-restore-god-crime-better-parenting-quote-video-texas-2021-9


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 May 22 - 07:44 AM

Ah yes, that highly successful Control-Mechanism, organised religion!
Mr Abbott needs to try harder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 30 May 22 - 09:54 AM

He is trying hard with multiple old timey arguments like
"Its not the guns its ;..."

bad Democrat attacks on the 2nd ammendment.
victim's fault for not having a gun
lack of hardened shooting sites
Lack of respect for God.
bad mental health
bad parenting
bad people


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 30 May 22 - 01:49 PM

Mrrzy.."Americans teach their kids to punch people who insult them."

Again..that is an unfair generalization! I'd bet that many more were raised like you and I.
I don't know ANYONE who thinks that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 May 22 - 03:40 PM

Dear Bill D, it is always lovely to see a post from you,
so I hate to disagree somewhat.
I know my generation is a little bit younger than yours.
And in your time, what you recall was no doubt true.

In my time already
(childhood in the 1960's), the change was already apparent,
and my experience agrees with Mrrzy's.
I was raised to avoid conflict, actually;
but I have vivid schoolyard recess memories of
aggressive young children and of how
the parents and teachers actually condoned the aggression.
It gives me no satisfaction, however, to observe the consequences now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 22 - 04:06 PM

I can understand many Americans being resentful about whats being said about them here. We presumably all know Americans who are good decent people , who try to bring their kids up to be well behaved , kindly and civil to all the people they encounter.

However, much of what is being said, is being said in genuine bewilderment and compassion. Many years ago when I first heard about the problem you are having as a result of your gun laws, it struck me that the number of people who die in America in gun related incidents was about 23 thousand. It was as if the entire population of the town I was born in (Boston, Lincolnshire) every man , woman child were shot to death.

Presumably things have got worse since then. I've heard all the arguments - all about vested interests, the gun lobby, the NRA, etc.

All I can say is - you must realise its not good enough. You should have done SOMETHING. Capital punishment doesn't seem to add anything. You've got the money. Show a bit of real determination. Sort it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 30 May 22 - 04:11 PM

Keberoxu.. I suppose we must just disagree. I am all-too-aware that there have been changes, but personal experiences and anecdotes do not justify generalizations about an entire country.
   I am sad & angry that too many people rely on guns to express their feelings and frustrations. I do know though, that increased media reporting *tends* to color peoples' emotional reactions to the issue.

My post yesterday deals with some of the causal factors of so many reports. Just a few extra disturbed individuals can make it seem like everyone with a grudge is buying AR-15s and taking out their feelings on the weak and innocent.
   I live in the Greater Washington D.C. area, and gun violence is common... but the perpetrators are 90% confined to a few areas and do NOT represent anyone in my area or acquaintances.
   What you & I & Mrrzy can agree on is that the problem is growing and desperately needs attention by Congress and the courts.

Let's hope...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 May 22 - 05:02 PM

After Uvalde, mass shootings continue over the weekend across the U.S.
At least eight mass shootings took place across the U.S. over the weekend following Tuesday's mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas.

Another three occurred between Wednesday and Friday.

According to the Gun Violence Archive, an independent organization that collects data from over 7,500 sources, eight people have been killed and another 45 injured in the five days following the massacre at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde.

A mass shooting, defined by the Gun Violence Archive, is an incident in which four or more individuals are shot and either injured or killed, excluding the gunman.

Visit the link to read the accounts who who else has been shot since the Uvalde episode.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 30 May 22 - 10:32 PM

Would common sense gun laws really impinge upon the Constitutional rights of law abiding citizens? Probably a little bit but when it comes to lethality its perfectly normal to not being denied the sale of cyanide at your local drug store. On the other hand cigaretts have killed hundreds of millions and some stores sell that.
Guns and cyanide deliver quick death but cigarettes are a slow death.
Speed of death is irrelevant. Its the political ammunition that interest groups apply to various products, often without morality.
Right now it is harder to buy Sudafed than an AR 15.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 May 22 - 05:05 AM

Does that mean you that are happy to slaughter innocent children just because you want relief for sinus congestions? It is bad enough that children are being exterminated because your country is determined to continue to allow people to own the means to use them for target practice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 22 - 06:41 AM

In a sense it’s true that "It's not the guns, it's the people" is true. It's the American people.

Other countries have legal gun ownership. Some even have a constitutional right to it. But America is the only place where mass shootings are pretty well a daily occurrence, and massacres in schools, churches and public places take place regularly, and where there is mass opposition to efforts to reduce them.

Most Americans are peaceful enough people who would never misuse guns, and that goes for most gun owners. But a very sizeable minority passionately and effectively support the ability of the lethal section of the population who do misuse guns, and who abuse their Constitutional right to possess them.

There are some people who should never have anything to do with guns, just as there are some people who should never have anything to do with anything Alcoholic. Among the nations of the world, that's America.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 May 22 - 07:03 AM

Do Americans have any idea how weird this looks to the rest of the world? The only places I can think of with similar gun cultures are Afghanistan and the North West Frontier.

Those in favour of guns seem very keen on the second part of the 2nd Amendment but less keen on the part about a well-ordered militia. Maybe it should be a requirement that anyone owning a gun should have to attend militia drills three times a week. Drills should where possible be arranged to coincide with the ball game.

One justification we hear is that people need guns to protect themselves from their own government. This is a nation which is so proud of its system of democracy that it has tried to impose it on other countries, sometimes by going to war, and yet people feel they cannot rely on its democratic systems and need to arm themselves. Seriously?

This is the richest and most powerful country in the world and yet it has failed to mature as a nation. It is hamstrung by a constitution which may have been appropriate 200 years ago in the aftermath of a war of independence but is not fit for purpose in the 21st century, but seems impossible to change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 May 22 - 08:23 AM

If Cyrano had been a stereotypical American, he'd just have punched the guy who insulted his nose.

Wit before violence, all day long.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 May 22 - 08:50 AM

'Do Americans have any idea how weird this looks to the rest of the world?'

something about pots and kettles.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 31 May 22 - 08:59 AM

Fair enough Europeans. The mass shootings in America are ABSOLUTELY done in our name. Perhaps there are people here that are happy when a new batch of kids are turned into hamburger by bullet but I have not met one. People here do not want to think kids die in their name.

Its an - ignoring that leads to ignorance -. It's a cowardice of cowering under nra like politico-corporate phrases .

Guns tickle the funny bone of wanna be machos. Many are too scared to live without a gun on their hip. The feeling of security is complicated and not always their fault.

Who dies in your name? We have mass shootings but Europe is having a brutal war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 31 May 22 - 09:42 AM

Pots and kettles are the rhetoric of relative Statesmanship.
A polite brand of brutal honesty offends at times.
It's also known as the awful truth, the ugly truth...
Whataboutism.
Changing our mind is better than leaving only a small portion of mind left in a child's broken skull.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 31 May 22 - 11:18 AM

In the interests of balance: certain segments of the young population in the UK feel the need to wear a knife at all times "for self-protection", with the inevitable accidents, headlines and moral panic. Nobody seems able to convince the youngsters in question that wearing a concealed weapon isn't directly equivalent to wearing a Kevlar vest.

This over here, and gun atrocities in the USA, both stem IMHO from the hero syndrome, which has been a millstone around mankind's neck since the days of the saga. I promise to blether on about it some other time, as this margin really is too small.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 22 - 11:30 AM

The remark earlier was correct, the comparison between buying Sudafed or guns. Pseudoephedrine is more difficult to purchase than an AR or AK assault rifles. The decongestant is regulated so you have to buy it from a pharmacist who enters your ID into a database before selling it; you can only buy so much per month. No prescription needed but you have to be old enough and not banned from buying it. This is to prevent the production of methamphetamines. See how well that's working? It isn't. But at least it slows down honest people from treating their allergies.

There are so many guns out there right now that even placing restrictions on purchase won't solve the problem. Buy back programs will, but they'll have to temp owners with pretty hefty purchase prices. Until it expired, the assault weapon ban worked. And the Brady bill restrictions had some effect. But they're all gone, expired or overturned. It's the Wild West out here now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 31 May 22 - 12:57 PM

It's guesswork but there are ~ 400 million guns over here. A gun is in general well built and works a lifetime or more with maintenance.
Buying a gun in anger is the market the NRA defends as well as the cricket rifle for kids. Both bad ideas imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 22 - 02:13 PM

The rationale of a kid in London who carries a knife for self protection is the same as that of a grown American who gets a gun for self protection is indeed the same. The difference is that the former is recognised generally as acting in a stupid, antisocial and self-destructive. There is no equivalent of the NRA supporting and encouraging him, or defending his right to have thatknife. And there is no mass of knife enthusiasts with deep pockets who have purchased the loyalty of corrupted politicians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 22 - 05:04 PM

This has got nothing to do with our (some of us) being "Europeans." Personally, I don't think it's fair to characterise this issue as being to do with a perceived "American mindset." I read somewhere last week that the majority of US citizens are revolted by the shootings and want to see better gun laws. The issue seems (from this end anyway) to be that the US governments over many years have been frightened to death of unelected lobby groups which wield disproportionately more power than they are entitled to, considering that no-one ever voted for them. We see it with the oil lobby, the pro-Israel lobby, the anti-abortion lobby and the gun lobby. Powerful forces that have nothing to do with democracy rule the roost, quite literally. A politician brave enough to REALLY take a stand is toast. That's the American Problem which perennially prevents change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 31 May 22 - 07:16 PM

Donuel said
"A gun is in general well built and works a lifetime or more with maintenance."

Yes.. and this is why vendors work so hard to retain the right..privilege of selling more! If sales were restricted, certain economic patterns would be seriously curtailed! Sales of hunting rifles and shotguns, along with weapons to law enforcement, is minor compared to the 'macho factor'.
   And if politicians were not able to count on money from gun manufacturers and their lobbyists .... well!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 31 May 22 - 07:33 PM

I loved the genius of the POV rifle. If shot by this new gun the shooter would immediately see everything from the victim's pov.

In the darkest times you laugh through your tears.
'Russain saying.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 31 May 22 - 08:04 PM

Canada leads the way by freezing any public handgun sales.
The violence south of the border is the impetus for such insifgtful action.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 22 - 08:38 PM

It will be interesting to see how the problem of a developing smuggling trade of guns to Canada from the USA plays out.
………….

There are lobbyists working on divisive issues in most countries, but somehow they rarely seem to have managed to achieve the same kind of traction as in the US. Maybe Brexit is the outstanding exception. I can't conceive of a pro-gun lobby having any possibility of making any kind of headway here, no matter how much money it had to throw about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 11:47 AM

The thing that it's hard to explain to Europeans ...and others... is that The United States is not really 'united' in many ways.
   Because of the way the Constitution is written, individual states... and thus their members of Congress... have the ability to create laws that vary widely from each other. This makes is easier for lobbyists to focus their pressures and money on certain areas, depending on the issue.
   Of course you in the U.K. won't see Yorkshire, Suffolk and Devon passing laws about guns in totally different ways! But here, Texas and Maryland might as well be different countries. (Maryland is just now banning "ghost guns")

   We are trapped in this circular political situation because of one phrase in the 2nd Amendment that was clear enough in the 1780s, but has no relevance now. Back then,'militia' was a useful word for citizens who came together to serve the government...usually temporarily. British forces in 1780 had a number of formal, named militias, so when the new U.S. was declared, it realized that, lacking a standing army, citizens might be needed to bring THEIR OWN rifles to defend things. These were non-standard weapons... there was little or no armory to distribute any.
(Commercial, standardized guns didn't become a reality until just prior to and during the Civil War.) Of course it made sense to give citizens the right privilege of "keeping and bearing" those "arms".)
Now, that phrase's wording is obsolete...but conservatives find the original wording very convenient, and will resist having it re-written... and the judicial system, the stupid electoral college and Gerrymandered districts--plus voter suppression and new laws in conservative states that give state legislatures the right to decide what votes to count--- are making the playing field unbalanced.
   So.. now the Republicans have switched tactics and are using our own historical system against the Democrats, and trying to ensure that Minority Rule becomes almost impossible to change!!!
   Trump, plus McConnell..which gave us a lopsided SCOTUS... means that Democracy is in serious danger.

Democrats can introduce legislation... but it only takes ONE Senator to block almost anything..so far. (Lots of work being done to stop that...but,,,*shrug*)


   A majority of Americans want gun laws changed... but we have NO way to vote on that directly. I am old.. and probably won't see how it all turns out. I wish it didn't have to be this way....


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 12:14 PM

This just appeared today on my news feed
https://www.npr.org/2022/06/01/1102239642/school-shooting-dunblane-massacre-uvalde-texas-gun-control
It 'almost' makes the point I just made above.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 12:30 PM

Our Govenor is ducking for cover by not signing the no ghost gun law if it is without a serial number but he did not openly oppose it.
Virginia will now make undetectable ghost guns illegal IF THEY DON'T HAVE A SERIAL NUMBER REGISTERED. big deal.
We're chasing ghosts instead of banning AK's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 12:36 PM

Of course ghost guns are a minor aspect of the larger problem, but baby steps are meaningful right now when serious steps are so difficult.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 01:01 PM

That goes a long way to amplify the power of a dodgy but sizeable minority, but it doesn't explain why an essentially crazy obsession can turn into to a mass movement.

As the leading organisation of gun owners, the NRA ought to be leading the way towards gun controls, not fighting them. WhereI live the AutomobileAssociation would vigorously fight in defence of having stringent driving tests and sensible speed limits. There might be arguments about how stringent or what " sensible" should mean, but in principle there'd be agreement.   

But the NRA is into way out crazy extremism, and seemingly rational people back them in numbers enough to mean their lobbying has teeth, and the politicians they buy don't get thrown on the dustheap by the voters the next time they stand for election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 02:07 PM

The NRA has very little clout except about campaign contributions. They were embarrassed when their 'leader' stole funds from them and they were dissolved..only to be re-created in Texas.
   The gun lobby is aligned with the Christian Right and the anti-abortionists and the conspiracy theorists...etc... all of whom just rely on their 'bought' politicians to object to almost anything Democrats do.
   It's all fueled by fears of being primaried by Trump supporters.

The history of why a "crazy obsession" turns into a mass movement is simply a history of how, when and by whom this country was settled. Guns were part of the Western frontier movement, and ownership was simple & normal until recently. It wasn't until after WWII that former soldiers and more powerful guns began to create a **gun culture** apart from hunters and ranchers...etc. The first real mass shooting was in 1947 when Howard Unrah, a former soldier, ran down the street in NYC and killed a bunch of people.
   Now, in some areas, it is simply a macho thing that leads to collecting guns and inevitably to using them for anything from holdups to settling scores.

and so here we are.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 05:15 PM

I can see that if you want to something about this predicament that your country is in - its not going to be easy.

But neither was the campaign for integration and racial equality.

Its going to take that sort of united front to assert basic decency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 07:17 PM

HIGH FIVES ALL AROUND FOR THE NRA - Another shooting at a Hospital.
You see AR sales skyrocket when mass shootings threaten the manufacture of AR military weapons, in the mind of buyers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 07:19 PM

It's a disease, at this point.
Treatable, perhaps, but ... curable??


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 07:39 PM

I can see how there can be a cult of gun-owners who revere them, and see them as a central part of a national tradition. But I find it hard to understand how that could go astray Into defending the ability of people to defile that tradition by how they misuse guns.

So I'd expect to see people who see guns that way to be actively demanding checks on how guns could get into the hands of people liable to misuse them, and on the types of guns they could have. Not just because that would go towards protecting the right to own guns from those who might wish to oppose that, but even more because the misuse of guns was a kind of blasphemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 07:39 PM

**** dis ease. I think good health is just a constant state of healing whether we know it or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 07:57 PM

I wonder how much straw it takes to break a Camel's back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 22 - 09:45 PM

McGrath...It is just very hard to identify possible misusers if they have no history of threats or arrests. Yes...there needs to need new restrictions on ANYONE buying guns, as well as what kind they can buy.
   Maybe now we can get **some** progress.
I DO see how, given our history, reverence for guns can morph into misuse. I referred to such things in my long post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 03:42 AM

Bill, did you see my linked article on how the Swiss manage to do it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 05:06 AM

...And another...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 05:57 AM

Obviously it’s Open Season, Steve… :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 08:46 AM

The idea that shooting people is a *reasonable* response to discomfort is very much the American mindset.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 08:56 AM

And a good start to changing that mindset would be to replace the ‘right’ to own a gun with the principle that it’s a privilege. Strict registration and vetting of all gun-owners, and restrictions on what types of gun they are allowed to own. That’s how it’s done in the UK and Australia, and <100 shooting deaths a year proves it works.

No civilian needs military-style assault weapons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 09:11 AM

As Bill said, restrictions on who can buy guns and what kind of guns are needed in any country. And of course it's hard to identify possible misusers - but the fact that something necessary is hard is never a good reason not to do it.

What I find hard to understand how any sane gun enthusiasts would not agree to that. I can understand there are some who would see things like that as being a step towards a total ban, but not how they can be anything but a fringe minority among gun owners, to be ridiculed and disliked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 10:12 AM

I gather that it's more important to have guns than abortion in some states!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 10:34 AM

It is called 'DEEPITY
'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 11:04 AM

Dave TK
Yes.. and the Swiss actions make perfect sense. Sane & reasonable.
But here, the bureaucratic process to institute such changes has so many barriers that it is almost dead from the start.

Today, there is an article..if you can access it.. about how the US House of Representatives has begun..Unfortunately it is pretty soft and weak...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gun-control-legislation-protecting-our-kids-act-house-judiciary-committee/

"The House Judiciary Committee on Thursday will consider eight pieces of gun control legislation that will be packaged together as the "Protecting Our Kids Act" and will move to the House floor for a vote next week, according to a committee aide. That movement comes as President Biden told reporters Tuesday that he will meet with Congress on guns.
The legislation under consideration by House Democrats would do the following

Raise the age for purchasing a semiautomatic centerfire rifle from 18 to 21 years old
Make it illegal to import, sell, manufacture, transfer or possess a large-capacity magazine, with some exceptions
Establish requirements regulating the storage of firearms on residential facilities
Build on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' regulatory ban on bump stocks, attachments to guns that make rapid-fire easier. Existing bump stocks would have to be registered, and sale and possession by civilians of bump stocks would be banned.
Current federal firearms regulations would apply to so-called "ghost guns."

It will 'probably' pass in the House...but the Senate is another matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 11:15 AM

McGrath... I'm sure, as you say, that 'sane' gun owners would agree... but in such cases, sane is itself ambiguous.
On issues like guns, abortion, immigration, LGBTQ rights...etc.. sanity is problematic.

I'd counter by asking why Britain and other countries can't stop football/soccer riots. Are those who crash gates and pick fights 'sane'?

Humans are distinguished by their ability to rationalize and ignore laws on certain topics... sadly, fascination with guns is the albatross WE are burdened with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 04:58 PM

We have stopped football riots. The little scuffles we get today are as nothing compared to the hooliganism of the seventies and eighties. The word riot is not appropriate. The issue at the Champions League final in Paris was not the result of supporter misbehaviour. I suggest thst you choose your sources of news a little more carefully, Bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 06:12 PM

Being fascinated with guns is almost as easy to understand as being fascinated by musical instruments. They can both be ingeniously designed and constructed and beautiful as objects.

It's easy enough to see how there can be some people who would see efforts to regulate ownership as a threat. What I find hard is how such people could ever be more than a tiny fringe of disregarded weirdos. Even if they had money to burn, how could they have a stranglehold on a major political party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 06:58 PM

The thing in France was a minor scuffle? I did include "other countries". I read several articles about it...including the fake ticket scandal. I know that slow and inadequate police presence contributed. *shrug*.. but just because no one got trampled or got onto the field, it still seemed like quite a mess.

My point was that around the world, there are serious things done in anger. There was some player in (Columbia?) killed because of an 'own goal' a number of years ago.

Well, I'm glad it's better about the riots...at least those are easier to deal with... but the gun issues here will likely persist for the foreseeable future. Simply too many guns and idiots out there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 07:38 PM

Sorry, Bill, but you got the "football riots" thing arse about face. The Liverpool fans in Paris were absolutely not to blame for the over-reaction of the French police. The fake ticket thing happens at every big sports event, nothing has been proven, and the accusation by the French that fake tickets were done "on an industrial scale" is just bullshit intended to divert attention away from the shortcomings of the EUFA organisation and the pathetic and heavy-handed response of the French police.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 07:41 PM

A little girl watched the 19 slain children on TV and asked,"Mom, what picture will you use of me"?

Mcgrath has a point there are few things that are so elegant, mysterious, precious and lovable that can reach out and touch someone as deeply as a gun. But that is only half of the fairey tale . Behold the bullet! The graceful taper leading to a point of excellence and infinity. -Swoon- Nothing is as fun and spontaneous as bullets in a hot frying pan. Nothing as perfect and precise as a well aimed bullet, pronounced bule'. A well dressed man may sport a Rolex but nothing gets attention like an AR draped accross his chest. Accessories are to die for. They even sell a small splash guard for close up work and round 100 bullet magazines that will make your barrel glow red by the time its empty 000h. I say let the big dog bark loud and forget those puny silencers. The freedom, the glory, the power and the smell of gunpowder in the morning is pure ectasy...err um... well
I suppose guns could be cool. I have friends who are gun nuts, Hazel, Walt and Pete. There is nothing like gun nuts boastin when they open fire.

Biden is now making his appeal on TV tonight...


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 08:43 PM

Seriously I know and Stephen Colbert knows of the actual love affair some people have with their guns.

Greg Stube of Florida is in Congress. Here he is debating a gun bill today. https://twitter.com/i/status/1532399894773878784


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jun 22 - 10:55 PM

Unfortunately, it is a right. I agree it oughta be a privilege.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 22 - 04:23 PM

Why should it be a privilege? Why should it happen at all?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 22 - 05:54 PM

I'd sooner live in a world without guns, or for that matter cars or many other things that are part of our civilisation.

But magic thinking doesn't work. What we have to do is agree on ways of controlling these things, and eliminating or minimising the bad consequences. We are lucky in the UK to have a culture in which virtually eliminating gun worship has been possible. Many, in fact most other parts of the world haven't been so lucky.

The USA isn't the only country where private gun ownership is a constitutional right, and it isn't the only country where gun ownership is quite common. But it is the only country where it is a national obsession, and where mass killings of this sort are are regular events, and other kinds of gun deaths are so commonplace.

There is no contradiction between there being a right to have a gun and and for the exercise of that right being subject to stringent requirements. I don't like the word "privilege" being used in this context, any more than in many others where it is deployed too readily.
……..

The sad thing is how the title of this thread is always freshly the case. I note today there's a story of a judge getting killed by a nut with a death list of a string of other public people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jun 22 - 07:12 PM

I was surprised that more kids were shot and killed than on duty policemen this year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 08:46 AM

Why? Republicans https://uproxx.com/viral/marjorie-taylor-greene-gun-giveaway-joe-biden-taliban/


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 09:02 AM

And another


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 10:38 AM

If the feds were smart they'd track the sales of body armor.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 02:32 PM

Not sure that'd work, SRS: in films, heroes are always lucky, and need neither body armour nor more than one shot. Behaving like a film hero in real life doesn't guarantee you'll be lucky --- far from it.

The remainder of this train of thought has been delayed at Paddington, awaiting the unloading of a Very Important Bear's crate of marmalade sandwiches.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 02:43 PM

The book by Chivers: "The Gun" is about the design, development, and massive manufacture of the AK-47 which was stockpiled in the millions and used by the USSR as an inducement to influence foreign policy. It was a tool in the deaths of over a million people since its creation.

Apparently its namesake, Mikhail Kalashnikov, was quite proud of his design, but also aware of its consequences and not proud of that part.
Which also reminded me of the Nicolas Cage movie of almost 20 years ago: "Lord of War"


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 06:30 PM

Without realizing it I have been associating our various summer get aways with the mass shooting that was concurrent with the trips.
Williamsburg: Colorado movie shooter
Northwest coast trip: Uvelve Texas shooting
etc.
With 3 mass shootings a week there is no shortage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 06:12 AM

Progressive news channels report 13 mass shootings in these last 2 weeks
Fox reports 2

240 mass shootings have occured this year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 03:26 PM

On track for well over 500 this year then. A world beating 'achievement' that would surely make every gun nut proud to be American.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jun 22 - 10:15 AM

I just got to Philly. I feel safer that they just *had* a mass shooting.

I remember in the 70s feeling safer flying if there had just been a hijacking or plane crash. Similar fallacy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 07:16 AM

Get to know what the other side of the gun debate is about.
"We did not ban airplanes after 9-11."
"We have to protect weapons over the lives illegaly taken."
"We need better doors and mental health at schools"
"After the school accident, Democrats shamfully politicized the deaths."


Its all part of running out the clock.


Have you ever heard of a mass shooter calling 911 to declare to police "I'm about to shoot Bret Cavanaugh, I am 2 blocks from his house..."??

No one was harmed or shot. The good guys came to the rescue of the Justice. It is a very curious story about a (mentally ill) young man from Californis that had a job to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 12:43 PM

Gun owner rights are superior to the lives of American children who by the way die from bullets from guns as their leading cause of death.

Before children are born their lives are invaluable and women's rights are negligible. After they are born, rights are reduced to that of women (on the conservative side of things)

India still has sacred cows but we have sacred guns that trump people's   lives in church, on the job, in school, on the road, at the movies, at military installations, concerts and kindergartens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jun 22 - 11:58 AM

In contrast to the police delay to confront the Uvalde shooter, Duncanville police took out a shooter quickly.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/14/1104904845/police-dallas-area-kill-gunman-summer-camp-for-kids-duncanville-fieldhouse.

A gunman opened fire inside a building where more than 250 kids and staff were starting a day of summer camp on Monday, setting off a panic that ended with a gunfight with police in Duncanville, Texas.

Officers shot the attacker, who was later declared dead at a local hospital. Authorities are crediting the fast response by camp staff and police with preventing injuries to anyone else.

Duncanville is SW of Dallas and east of Fort Worth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Jul 22 - 05:23 AM

Los Angeles: Two killed and five injured in shooting in San Pedro park
Two people were killed and five others wounded in a shooting at a Los Angeles park on Sunday (24 July).

Gunfire broke out at an informal car show in the community of San Pedro, according to the Los Angeles Fire Department.

As part of Southern California car culture, owners of classic cars and low riders often gather in public places to show off their rides.

The shooting victims, four men and three women, ranged in age from 23 to 54, but a spokesperson said he could offer no information about what caused the confrontation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: leeneia
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 02:17 PM

Thanks for the link, Stilly. It gives one a lot to think about.

I'm glad they didn't name the perp. I have read that one motive for these "school" shooters is fame. The less notoriety we grant them, the better off we will be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jul 22 - 02:48 PM

A very narrow vote in the House has won a rebanning of AR 15s.
The Senate is another matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: leeneia
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 04:39 PM

Banning is good, but there are a lot of these guns out there already. However, we have had guns for years, but these mass shootings are new.

When there is a big change in people's behavior, I look for big changes in people's lives. If you are a senior citizen, think back to when you were twelve, when you were 25, when you were 40. What has changed? These things come to my mind:

   So many younger people don't have fathers. What does it do to your
   pride when your own father doesn't even want to know if you are
   okay?

   Poverty is so much more desperate. People living under bridges and
   in dumpsters. Families without enough to eat.

   Mental health - less help all the time, it seems.

   Illegal drugs - cause hopelessness, cause rage

   Internet malice. "Be famous! Shoot somebody! Here's how."

   Alcohol use is way up since Covid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Aug 22 - 04:55 PM

All good points leenia.
I worry about these guns being used by extremeists who now feel they were too timid over the Kansas abortion votes. Polling places may be the target of any shooting to inspire fear and skew the extremist vote.
Make people think twice about going to the polls that were shot up the night before and maybe the extremists win. Fear and intimidation is the Republican calling card. This has not happened yet thank goodness, except at school board meetings and against volunteers who count votes and attorney generals that certify elections.


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