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BS: Another shooting in US
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Bill D Date: 31 May 22 - 07:16 PM Donuel said "A gun is in general well built and works a lifetime or more with maintenance." Yes.. and this is why vendors work so hard to retain the And if politicians were not able to count on money from gun manufacturers and their lobbyists .... well! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Steve Shaw Date: 31 May 22 - 05:04 PM This has got nothing to do with our (some of us) being "Europeans." Personally, I don't think it's fair to characterise this issue as being to do with a perceived "American mindset." I read somewhere last week that the majority of US citizens are revolted by the shootings and want to see better gun laws. The issue seems (from this end anyway) to be that the US governments over many years have been frightened to death of unelected lobby groups which wield disproportionately more power than they are entitled to, considering that no-one ever voted for them. We see it with the oil lobby, the pro-Israel lobby, the anti-abortion lobby and the gun lobby. Powerful forces that have nothing to do with democracy rule the roost, quite literally. A politician brave enough to REALLY take a stand is toast. That's the American Problem which perennially prevents change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 May 22 - 02:13 PM The rationale of a kid in London who carries a knife for self protection is the same as that of a grown American who gets a gun for self protection is indeed the same. The difference is that the former is recognised generally as acting in a stupid, antisocial and self-destructive. There is no equivalent of the NRA supporting and encouraging him, or defending his right to have thatknife. And there is no mass of knife enthusiasts with deep pockets who have purchased the loyalty of corrupted politicians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 31 May 22 - 12:57 PM It's guesswork but there are ~ 400 million guns over here. A gun is in general well built and works a lifetime or more with maintenance. Buying a gun in anger is the market the NRA defends as well as the cricket rifle for kids. Both bad ideas imo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Stilly River Sage Date: 31 May 22 - 11:30 AM The remark earlier was correct, the comparison between buying Sudafed or guns. Pseudoephedrine is more difficult to purchase than an AR or AK assault rifles. The decongestant is regulated so you have to buy it from a pharmacist who enters your ID into a database before selling it; you can only buy so much per month. No prescription needed but you have to be old enough and not banned from buying it. This is to prevent the production of methamphetamines. See how well that's working? It isn't. But at least it slows down honest people from treating their allergies. There are so many guns out there right now that even placing restrictions on purchase won't solve the problem. Buy back programs will, but they'll have to temp owners with pretty hefty purchase prices. Until it expired, the assault weapon ban worked. And the Brady bill restrictions had some effect. But they're all gone, expired or overturned. It's the Wild West out here now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 31 May 22 - 11:18 AM In the interests of balance: certain segments of the young population in the UK feel the need to wear a knife at all times "for self-protection", with the inevitable accidents, headlines and moral panic. Nobody seems able to convince the youngsters in question that wearing a concealed weapon isn't directly equivalent to wearing a Kevlar vest. This over here, and gun atrocities in the USA, both stem IMHO from the hero syndrome, which has been a millstone around mankind's neck since the days of the saga. I promise to blether on about it some other time, as this margin really is too small. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 31 May 22 - 09:42 AM Pots and kettles are the rhetoric of relative Statesmanship. A polite brand of brutal honesty offends at times. It's also known as the awful truth, the ugly truth... Whataboutism. Changing our mind is better than leaving only a small portion of mind left in a child's broken skull. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 31 May 22 - 08:59 AM Fair enough Europeans. The mass shootings in America are ABSOLUTELY done in our name. Perhaps there are people here that are happy when a new batch of kids are turned into hamburger by bullet but I have not met one. People here do not want to think kids die in their name. Its an - ignoring that leads to ignorance -. It's a cowardice of cowering under nra like politico-corporate phrases . Guns tickle the funny bone of wanna be machos. Many are too scared to live without a gun on their hip. The feeling of security is complicated and not always their fault. Who dies in your name? We have mass shootings but Europe is having a brutal war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Big Al Whittle Date: 31 May 22 - 08:50 AM 'Do Americans have any idea how weird this looks to the rest of the world?' something about pots and kettles..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Mrrzy Date: 31 May 22 - 08:23 AM If Cyrano had been a stereotypical American, he'd just have punched the guy who insulted his nose. Wit before violence, all day long. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Howard Jones Date: 31 May 22 - 07:03 AM Do Americans have any idea how weird this looks to the rest of the world? The only places I can think of with similar gun cultures are Afghanistan and the North West Frontier. Those in favour of guns seem very keen on the second part of the 2nd Amendment but less keen on the part about a well-ordered militia. Maybe it should be a requirement that anyone owning a gun should have to attend militia drills three times a week. Drills should where possible be arranged to coincide with the ball game. One justification we hear is that people need guns to protect themselves from their own government. This is a nation which is so proud of its system of democracy that it has tried to impose it on other countries, sometimes by going to war, and yet people feel they cannot rely on its democratic systems and need to arm themselves. Seriously? This is the richest and most powerful country in the world and yet it has failed to mature as a nation. It is hamstrung by a constitution which may have been appropriate 200 years ago in the aftermath of a war of independence but is not fit for purpose in the 21st century, but seems impossible to change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 May 22 - 06:41 AM In a sense it’s true that "It's not the guns, it's the people" is true. It's the American people. Other countries have legal gun ownership. Some even have a constitutional right to it. But America is the only place where mass shootings are pretty well a daily occurrence, and massacres in schools, churches and public places take place regularly, and where there is mass opposition to efforts to reduce them. Most Americans are peaceful enough people who would never misuse guns, and that goes for most gun owners. But a very sizeable minority passionately and effectively support the ability of the lethal section of the population who do misuse guns, and who abuse their Constitutional right to possess them. There are some people who should never have anything to do with guns, just as there are some people who should never have anything to do with anything Alcoholic. Among the nations of the world, that's America. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 31 May 22 - 05:05 AM Does that mean you that are happy to slaughter innocent children just because you want relief for sinus congestions? It is bad enough that children are being exterminated because your country is determined to continue to allow people to own the means to use them for target practice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 30 May 22 - 10:32 PM Would common sense gun laws really impinge upon the Constitutional rights of law abiding citizens? Probably a little bit but when it comes to lethality its perfectly normal to not being denied the sale of cyanide at your local drug store. On the other hand cigaretts have killed hundreds of millions and some stores sell that. Guns and cyanide deliver quick death but cigarettes are a slow death. Speed of death is irrelevant. Its the political ammunition that interest groups apply to various products, often without morality. Right now it is harder to buy Sudafed than an AR 15. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Stilly River Sage Date: 30 May 22 - 05:02 PM After Uvalde, mass shootings continue over the weekend across the U.S. At least eight mass shootings took place across the U.S. over the weekend following Tuesday's mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas. Visit the link to read the accounts who who else has been shot since the Uvalde episode. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Bill D Date: 30 May 22 - 04:11 PM Keberoxu.. I suppose we must just disagree. I am all-too-aware that there have been changes, but personal experiences and anecdotes do not justify generalizations about an entire country. I am sad & angry that too many people rely on guns to express their feelings and frustrations. I do know though, that increased media reporting *tends* to color peoples' emotional reactions to the issue. My post yesterday deals with some of the causal factors of so many reports. Just a few extra disturbed individuals can make it seem like everyone with a grudge is buying AR-15s and taking out their feelings on the weak and innocent. I live in the Greater Washington D.C. area, and gun violence is common... but the perpetrators are 90% confined to a few areas and do NOT represent anyone in my area or acquaintances. What you & I & Mrrzy can agree on is that the problem is growing and desperately needs attention by Congress and the courts. Let's hope... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 May 22 - 04:06 PM I can understand many Americans being resentful about whats being said about them here. We presumably all know Americans who are good decent people , who try to bring their kids up to be well behaved , kindly and civil to all the people they encounter. However, much of what is being said, is being said in genuine bewilderment and compassion. Many years ago when I first heard about the problem you are having as a result of your gun laws, it struck me that the number of people who die in America in gun related incidents was about 23 thousand. It was as if the entire population of the town I was born in (Boston, Lincolnshire) every man , woman child were shot to death. Presumably things have got worse since then. I've heard all the arguments - all about vested interests, the gun lobby, the NRA, etc. All I can say is - you must realise its not good enough. You should have done SOMETHING. Capital punishment doesn't seem to add anything. You've got the money. Show a bit of real determination. Sort it out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: keberoxu Date: 30 May 22 - 03:40 PM Dear Bill D, it is always lovely to see a post from you, so I hate to disagree somewhat. I know my generation is a little bit younger than yours. And in your time, what you recall was no doubt true. In my time already (childhood in the 1960's), the change was already apparent, and my experience agrees with Mrrzy's. I was raised to avoid conflict, actually; but I have vivid schoolyard recess memories of aggressive young children and of how the parents and teachers actually condoned the aggression. It gives me no satisfaction, however, to observe the consequences now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Bill D Date: 30 May 22 - 01:49 PM Mrrzy.."Americans teach their kids to punch people who insult them." Again..that is an unfair generalization! I'd bet that many more were raised like you and I. I don't know ANYONE who thinks that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 30 May 22 - 09:54 AM He is trying hard with multiple old timey arguments like "Its not the guns its ;..." bad Democrat attacks on the 2nd ammendment. victim's fault for not having a gun lack of hardened shooting sites Lack of respect for God. bad mental health bad parenting bad people |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Backwoodsman Date: 30 May 22 - 07:44 AM Ah yes, that highly successful Control-Mechanism, organised religion! Mr Abbott needs to try harder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 30 May 22 - 07:25 AM Don't mess with Texas death https://www.businessinsider.com/greg-abbott-restore-god-crime-better-parenting-quote-video-texas-2021-9 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Backwoodsman Date: 30 May 22 - 07:23 AM ”Yes, and the Swiss flag is a big plus too. :-) Good ‘un Steve! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 May 22 - 05:32 AM Yes, and the Swiss flag is a big plus too. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Dave the Gnome Date: 30 May 22 - 03:45 AM Massive difference in gun control laws between Switzerland and the USA though Here's why |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Mrrzy Date: 29 May 22 - 09:50 PM As an example...Switzerland *requires* everyone to have a gun. Some Swiss are probably jerks, but it just doesn't occur to them that shooting anybody is a reasonable answer to discomfort. Americans teach their kids to punch people who insult them. I was raised on the notion that if you stoop to violence, you have lost both the battle of wits and tje moral high ground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: keberoxu Date: 29 May 22 - 09:10 PM Don McLean has stated that he supports the NRA because he is a lifelong fan of Western films which led him to horseback riding and gun collecting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: keberoxu Date: 29 May 22 - 09:06 PM Forgive me if somebody already pointed this out. The company which manufactured the make/model of weapon used in the Uvalde school shootings pulled out of the NRA convention, at which this company was scheduled to join Beretta, Smith & Wesson, Ruger, and other competitors at the Houston, Texas convention location's floor show. The same company shut down its Twitter account after the shootings. Now there is an outcry over the advertising campaign that put, on social media, a promotion/advertisement labelled with a quote from scripture, of a toddler cradling a rifle in his lap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Bill D Date: 29 May 22 - 07:48 PM "...Americans are raised with the sincerely held belief that violence is a *reasonable* response to insult or discomfort." **SOME** Americans are raised in situations where that is common. It is not a regular thing. One problem is that it is not considered PC to note the cultural groups where such attitudes are prevalent. (No, they are not all 'racial', but that is one reason that proposed solutions are phrased a bit ambiguously...especially in Congress.) I posted this on Facebook to illustrate what any attempts to deal with guns is up against.. "Most people with already set opinions forget what 'militia' meant when the 2nd Amendment was written. The new govt. had no standing army.. but the British had a history of organized militias, so the word was useful in referring to 'citizens' coming together quickly and performing temporary duty. These were expected to have their own, non-standard long guns, as there was little or no armory to hand out weapons. From this site:https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/interpretation/amendment-ii/interps/99 "The onset of war does not always allow time to raise and train an army, and the Revolutionary War showed that militia forces could not be relied on for national defense. The Constitutional Convention therefore decided that the federal government should have almost unfettered authority to establish peacetime standing armies and to regulate the militia." The framers and authors of the 2nd amendment could not conceive of standardized weapons and ammunition, much less the advanced stuff of today. It wasn't until the era just before and during the Civil War that creation of standardized guns began. Everyone knows they would not have phrase it in a way that was clear then, but ambiguous today..... but those who covet their guns simply will NOT admit this, as it might lead to an amendment that limited what kinds of weapons were legal, when and by whom. I am quite aware that the legal situation is now circular, as the courts, the Gerrymandered states, the rules for creating and approving a new amendment- plus the absurdity of the Electoral College will hamstring attempts for the foreseeable future..... and then there are several hundred million guns ...legal and illegal already out there." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 29 May 22 - 06:20 PM Guns fall into the hands of the wrong people because: (1) It is too easy for people to get guns (2) If guns are got by the right people they can still be passed on to wrong people. (3) A right person who has a gun, might become a wrong person in the future. (4) Wrong people can only be identified as those who are known to be wrong people. Is America suggesting that the yardstick for gun ownership should be whether or not they have a track record for wasting schoolchildren? Would those who advocate ownership of firearms to put there own children into a ballot for there own children to be executed on a one to one basis for each murdered child as they do not seem to have a problem about allowing their own people to own the means to murder other peoples children. No, I am not seriously proposing the above - I am just trying to highlight the double standards of the gun lobbyists who put their rights above other people's children but are probably hypocrites when it comes to their own families. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 May 22 - 05:22 PM Sorry, "placing guns in the hands of the wrong people" is not clear enough. I should have put "Allowing the wrong people to get guns so easily" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 May 22 - 05:13 PM No Mrrzy, it is not guns and it is not people. It is placing guns in the hands of the wrong people. It really is quite simple - make guns extemely difficult to get hold of and you will drastically reduce the number of these incidents. In my memory we have had 2 mass shootings in the UK. Hungerford in 1987 and Dublane in 1996. Nothing like that since as private guns have effectively been banned. Of course criminals will still get hold of them. Of course people can kill without guns. But there is nothing like the scale of what happens there anywhere else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 May 22 - 05:06 PM Uvalde librarian thought about canceling storytime. Instead, she made it a refuge Staff members at the Uvalde, Texas, library decided the community needed a safe space for children after the mass shooting at Robb Elementary School. Initially Mendell Morgan, the public library director, thought about closing on Wednesday, out of respect for those who’d lost their children. Ultimately he decided to keep the library open. At a time when librarians across the country have faced baseless allegations and threats of criminal charges from parents who’ve accused them of providing pornography to children, Morgan wanted to show the community what, in his view, a library really is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Mrrzy Date: 29 May 22 - 11:03 AM It isn't the guns. Loads of places have guns. It isn't mental illness. That is everywhere. It is that Americans are raised with the sincerely held belief that violence is a *reasonable* response to insult or discomfort. We have the right to *pursue* happiness, but act as if we had the right to happiness itself. Murricans teach their kids to *fight* everything. War on drugs, war on terror. How about *fixing* things? Or healing things? Or curing things? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 May 22 - 04:52 AM If one of my grandkids hits someone with a stick I don't blame the stick but I certainly take it away! No one is blaming the guns. It is putting them in the hands of the wrong people that causes the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 29 May 22 - 03:08 AM Once again we are seeing the ridiculous argument that teachers need to arm themselves to protect students. Let's drill down on that: (1)The shooter probably entered the classroom assault rifle in hand, ready to kill, so the teacher, in order to stop the shoot would need have a gun in his/her hand at all times while teaching. (2) The shooter in this case has body armour - so are we talking about teachers having armour piercing firearms - and don't they give quite a recoil? (3) If teachers do not have armour piercing firearms, would they then have to aim for the head which is a much smaller moving target? (4) If a teacher has to make a split second decision - would they be at risk of overacting and shooting an unarmed person? (5) I am going to assume that those in professions that require discharging firearms are trained to shoot to kill given the situation - and those who join the police, for example, do so in the knowledge that there is a chance that they may need to do so as part of their work and that requires training. Would learning how to shoot to kill if needed then become a standard part of teacher training? (6) An assumption on my part - armed response police are trained to assess a situation so they don't go in all guns blazing which could massively increase the number of deaths. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 28 May 22 - 11:16 PM I would diagnoses a faulty hyper pathway from the amygdala of the shooter and abnormal disjointed mapping in the neo cortex. |
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Subject: RE: Idiot's guide to shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 28 May 22 - 10:21 PM Blaming rage is blaming the brain. It's easier and better to blame guns right now. The theory of 1,000 brains is for neurologists and biology fans. https://numenta.com/a-thousand-brains-by-jeff-hawkins |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Bonzo3legs Date: 28 May 22 - 06:41 PM You can have as many guns as you like in Texas, but you are not allowed more than six dildos!!!!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 May 22 - 06:11 PM One day, someone will tell us what you're talking about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 28 May 22 - 03:44 PM leenia is not saying guns don't kill people, people do. She is talking about emotions and the human brain, about thoughts and behaviors that stem from rage in our brain. First what is a thought? In is a constructed model that comes from our brains. Models are first created in the hippocampus and model processes are judged and stored in a hundred and 50 thousand or so areas in the neo cortex. Why all these models? Any life that moves has an advantage when it knows where it was and where it is. Predictions help refine our models. Now further down the rabbit hole of neurology is the emotions processed by the brain stem and thalamus. It is a problem as you see and will take a long time to figure out how a network of so many judging areas can work harmoniously. Its as though we have thousands of brains but ordered in a way you can cut a brain in half and it still functions with all its models. Anyway its a deep problem. Right now it is easier to take the sharp tip off our spears than change our brains. We learn our models in our lifetime. An individual brain can not do what collective brains can do and are prone to disruption at various stages. The wiring does not finish until 21. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 27 May 22 - 11:03 PM There are a mixed bag of possible solutions. Some are better than others. Raise the age of buying mass killing guns and ammo to 21. Ban all AR's and magazines of cop killing armor piercing bullets Do what Australia and New Zealand did. Do what has worked since 1950. Mutually Assured Destruction by thermonuclear bombs. Harden schools. Arm teachers. Arm students. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: keberoxu Date: 27 May 22 - 10:16 PM Here is a link to coverage on CNN of the story from the preceding post on this thread. Cheri Mossberg reporting for CNN |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: keberoxu Date: 27 May 22 - 09:46 PM You know, the first time I ever heard of the NRA was in a recording of the "Bonnie and Clyde" song with lyrics supposedly by Bonnie Parker. Somebody had to explain to me what the lyrics meant by saying "We have joined the NRA." Latest thing in the news is the fact that the annual NRA national convention is just about to be held. And a bunch of musicians had been lined up to perform and sing. And a bunch of them are, in fact, pulling out. What the blankety-blank was Don McLean doing, in the first place, agreeing to sing at the NRA convention? I didn't think he would take their money to perform for them in the first place, with the sort of lyrics he publishes and performs? Well, I guess I am the last to know things, and everybody else knows that he is -- was in the NRA's pocket. Because now Don McLean has announced that, no, he has pulled out, and will not sing at the NRA Convention. And neither will Lee Greenwood, who was expected to sing "God Bless the USA"; he has gone on the Fox television network to say that he had been engaged, and he has withdrawn his participation at the NRA convention entertainment. A few other singers and entertainers whose names I do not recognize, people I don't associate, again, with Don McLean. And the fact that they refuse to sing for the NRA ... is national news. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Backwoodsman Date: 27 May 22 - 05:11 PM Apparently UK knife crime still doesn't reach the levels seen in the USA. 224 deaths by a sharp instrument (including knives and broken bottles) in the UK in the year ended March 2021. Source: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04304/ 1,739 deaths by knives or cutting instruments in the US in the year 2020. Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 27 May 22 - 05:09 PM "Rest assured anyone who claims guns are the problem are wrong, misled and are not looking at the facts." Gov. Abbott well that should settle that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Donuel Date: 27 May 22 - 05:00 PM Even Mitt Romney has received 6 million from the NRA in his lifetime. TX gov Abbott brags that a Republican donor will pay all funeral costs for the kids. Insurance claims, unemployment benefits and health insurance will be expedited. After slashing 211 million from mental health programs he is doubling down on mental health. The govenor pledges the shooting will not be an inconveinience or added expense. Even if someone's glasses were broken in the shooting they will be covered. He is livid livid livid about the false reports that the police responded immediately when it really took 90 minutes. It sounds to me that he really doesn't give a fuck about the shooting but wants to sound like a person who cares. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Manitas_at_home Date: 27 May 22 - 04:57 PM Apparently UK knife crime still doesn't reach the levels seen in the USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 May 22 - 04:28 PM The National Rifle Association (NRA) has been very generous in their campaign contributions to the GOP. That's why. And right-to-lifers have been very generous in donations to the GOP. That is also why. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another shooting in US From: Bonzo3legs Date: 27 May 22 - 04:11 PM Why the GOP is quick to enact laws banning abortion but not guns is strange????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? |