BS: Regional UK Accents

Subject: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 07:35 AM

I've just read a brief article in the Dreaded Daily Mail which says that researchers at Cambridge and Portsmouth universities predict that Northern accents (eg Scouse, Lancastrian, Yorkshire, Geordie) and also South West 'rrrr' will be taken over by South East pronunciations.
They predict that within 45 years, our accents will be homogenised into some form of 'Estuary English'.
This has really ruined my day. I have absolutely adored the plethora of regional accents in UK, and can imitate most of them easily. There is such a richness of local speech and it has always enchanted me.
Oh dair moi bewties! Oi dornt reck'n oi kin keep a-troshing ner more!
(Maybe Broad Norfolk will survive)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 08:28 AM

It strikes me as unlikely, if people learn their accents from the people around them. If they learn their accents from television and radio, English children are as likely to develop northern accents. The farming programme early this morning interviewed a farmer from the Bristol area, who had a Liverpool accent, though not strongly Scouse, and here in central southern England I am as likely to hear northern accents as southern ones.
And then there are the mixed Caribbean/Cockney accents that have developed more recently.

There was also a report recently that American toddlers, addicted to Peppa Pig, are developing RP English accents and saying 'biscuits' instead of 'cookies'.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 09:57 AM

ah you mean English regional accents many of our schools now incorporate Doric and Laland as well as the Shetland and Orcadian tongue into the curriculum

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 12:41 PM

My sister, who lives between Perth and Dundee, tells me that she has noticed some changes in the Dundee accent over the last couple of years. I've lived in Glasgow and Edinburgh, and found quite a few 'variants' in those two cities, mostly class-related.
I do so love accents, and one of my favourites is the 'new' London Cockney/black one. (The one that has 'innit?' in it!) I adore Lee Nelson's 'Well-Good Show' (I watch it on Youtube) and he has that London one down to a T. I was amazed to learn that he is really Simon Brodkin and qualified/practised as a doctor in London!!
I studied Linguistics & Phonetics at Edinburgh University in the 1960s (among other things!) and was absolutely in my element.
I just want the wonderful diversity of accents to be preserved, not diluted down to one all-embracing way of speaking.
I reckon it's the meedja innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 02:47 PM

In the late '80's I saw a wonderful TV series The Story of English

Episode list

"An English Speaking World: Discusses how English has become the most dominant language throughout the world.
The Mother Tongue: Discusses the early stages of the English language, including Old English and Middle English.
A Muse of Fire: Discusses the influence of William Shakespeare and the King James Bible on the English language as well as how Early Modern English took root in the American colonies and its influence on contemporary American English.
The Guid Scots Tongue: Discusses the Scottish influence on the English language.
Black on White: Discusses the influence of Blacks on the English language. (Includes interviews with Philadelphia hip hop legends The Scanner Boys, Parry P and Grand Tone.)
Pioneers, O Pioneers!: Discusses Canadian English and the various forms of American English.
The Muvver Tongue: Discusses Cockney dialect and Australian English.
The Loaded Weapon: Discusses the Irish influence on the English Language.
Next Year's Words: Discusses the future and new emerging forms of the English language."


It's one of the best documentary series I have seen. Very informative and enjoyable and it shows the way the English language has travelled around the world and evolved at home and abroad.

I'm happy that most of the UK TV shows have moved away from received pronunciation and there are more regional accents but it does make it difficult for an Aussie to understand what they are saying sometimes. Thank goodness for captions!

I also try to identify the regional accents after contestants introduce themselves and state where they are from on shows like Pointless and Tipping Point.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 03:16 PM

There is a very comprehensive set of podcasts here https://historyofenglishpodcast.com

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 03:29 PM

Oh Helen, that does sound very interesting!
I too am glad that RP is no longer required by TV presenters, and that regional accents are acceptable (as long as they are intelligible)
I have several books on my shelves about English, the language, its history and the different accents, including
Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson
Cockney Rabbit by Ray Puxley
Strine by Afferbeck Lauder (actually, that's just his Strine name!)
plus lots of books in Broad Norfolk (Keith Skipper et al)
How terribly boring if we all spoke in identical accents!
I'm afraid I'm one of those people that 'pick up' accents wherever I happen to be living. I spoke a little bit 'Cockney' in West London where I was born, then 'Posh Edinburgh' (Jean Brodie type of thing)
then Glasgow, where I taught and spoke broad Glasgae, and now Norfolk.
I've picked up a lovely Norfolk speech together with many dialect words.
Not to mention some Malinke. My husband's French accent is very West African (a bit sing-song like Welsh) and it's affected my French accent too! (I have a degree in French - my tutors would be horrified to hear me now!))

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 04:13 PM

Regional accents and pronunciation and **speed** are all fascinating, but not when they are the only way someone on a news or documentary program can speak.
In Germany, they have something called "Die Umgangsprache", which is a 'standard' form used on national broadcasts. Even those whose natural accent is local can 'switch' to it.
   Here in the USA, there seems to be an increasing number of hosts who are either from Great Britain or who came from a country with British links. Often they speak so fast that my poor brain and less-than-great hearing simply can't process it. I have closed caption on most of the time, but automated CC often makes and incoherent mess of it.

   I remember a number or years ago, when "Ebonics" was in vogue, a black educator was arguing strongly that it should be not only permitted, but encouraged!
However, she did this in clear, concise, standard English! SHE could do the American version of Die Umgangsprache, but didn't seem to take into account that it might be a hindrance to those who spoke no other way.

   I truly admire those who can pick up other languages and accents easily and are fluent in more than one.. but accent and flow are at least as important as translation when trying to be understood by others.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 04:28 PM

Senoufou, I used to have The Story of English series on video tape but that is now an antiquated, outdated technology and I haven't found it on DVD to buy. It is available to view online, I think, but the book is also available. I bought a copy of the book soon after I bought the videos.

The Story of English

BillD, when I am donating at the blood bank there are TV screens showing a commercial station which has automated Closed Captions. It's a real hoot sometimes just seeing the weird and wonderful misrepresentations of what it being said.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Helen
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 05:49 PM

A hint when reading the book Let Stalk Strine: say the words out loud if you are having trouble working them out, e.g. Afferbeck Lauder. Actually, it might be easier to get that one if it was spelled Alferbeck Lauder.

I remember I had trouble working out "egg nishner" when I first read the book - a very, very long time ago. The emphasis is on "egg" when saying it aloud. We turned on the egg nishner this morning because the weather was a bit chilly.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 05:53 PM

I was born in Radcliffe and went to school in Bolton, but at the age of 18, half a century ago, I moved away from Lancashire (as that area still was) and have never lived there since. My Lancashire accent is absolutely rock-solid, undiminished and uninfluenced, even after 34 years in Cornwall. Oddly, my brother, who moved to New Zealand 44 years ago, rapidly adopted a strong NZ twang, amusingly blended with his northern accent, even up to today.

You can take the man from the north, but...

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Allan Conn
Date: 29 Jul 21 - 06:31 PM

Had a laugh in the early days of my marriage. My wife is from Norwich in Norfolk but moved up here to Scotland when we got together. She doesn't really have a local Norfolk accent. Anyway we were watching Star Trek and she said "It really annoys me how all the aliens have American accents"

I said it was an American prog so it was natural they had American accents and asked what kind of accent she thought aliens should have?

She suggested they would speak like she does and not have an accent.

I must admit it had me in fits of giggles. As soon as she opens her mouth everyone knows she is English because of her accent. But she was adamant that she does not have any kind of accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Allan Conn
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 02:28 AM

More generally re accents I think even within Scotland regional accents, never mind the dialects themselves, are pretty much ignored in drama. Even in the "Shetland" drama series the only local accent seems to be the policeman Sandy and everyone else sounds as if they come from the central belt. And the actor who plays Sandy is himself a Shetlander. So no real attempts for actors to try a local accent. I've never heard anyone in any drama with a Borders accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 03:02 AM

Bill Bryson wrote a wonderful book called Mother Tongue that has a lot of in-depth and witty analysis of UK and US accents and dialects. Worth digging out for those interested in such things

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 03:08 AM

My mother had a soft Irish accent, and she made me smile when she put on her 'posh' voice in shops. But she was a telephonist for the local Electricity Board and had to speak 'posh' (RP) at work.
My father was a Geordie and as a result, as a young child I picked up Irish, Geordie and Cockney!
I realise that with speech, the aim is to communicate thoughts clearly from one head to another. But most accents are perfectly intelligible. Billy Connolly's broad Glasgae is an essential part of his repertoire of jokes and tales. Just as Lee Nelson would not be so very funny if he spoke in his natural 'posh' accent. Innit?
At university, we were taught Phonetic Script and had to transpose many recorded speakers into Script, using the signs for glottal stops, devoiced vowels etc etc. I was in heaven! (Boast follows:- I obtained a Distinction!)
I also learned British Sign Language (just to level 1) which husband says if I used that all the time, it would give everyone around me a bit of peace, the cheeky thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: BobL
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 03:28 AM

I have sometimes thought that the audio on Sat Navs should automatically switch to an accent appropriate to the region. From a technical angle, it would not be difficult.
The only problem is that in certain places, a non-native would become permanently trapped.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 04:13 AM

Hee hee BobL!! I'm imagining a Norfolk SatNav helpfully saying, "Yew kin turn roit hair moi bewty!" or "Yew orter mairk a kumpleet yew-turn when yew kin bor!" And some of the VERY Norfolk folk I know would be delighted if some of 'them thair furriners' got completely lost in the backwoods!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 05:30 AM

Heaven help you kn Croydon ........... inni' !!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 06:53 AM

Eee, lad, stroll on... Ah towd thee ter turn reet but tha's bloody gone left! Tha's 'ave ter turn round an' try again, and next time try listenin' proper, yer daft bugger!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Helen
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 07:00 AM

Senoufou, there is a really funny Australian show called Black Comedy. The main actors and writers are Aboriginal/indigenous. One of the segments shows a man driving and the SatNav voice is an exaggerated Aboriginal voice saying some really out-there instructions. **Strong language warning.**

ABC Black Comedy: Indigenous GPS

Also, one of my very favourite comedy shows in the '90's was Goodness Gracious Me. There were some really funny segments where the Indian heritage characters were mixing up Cockney (I think, from memory) dialects with Indian language and sayings. Classic!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 07:23 AM

I live in Dover. The village of Aylesham is about 9 miles away. The following is taken from wikipedia.

By British standards, Aylesham is a relatively new village. It was established in 1926 to house miners working in the Kent coal mines. The heads of the first families to be housed there all worked at the nearby newly sunk Snowdown Colliery. It was planned to also accommodate future workers at two other proposed new pits at Adisham and Wingham, but neither colliery was ever built.

And

Miners from all parts of the UK (notably South Wales, Scotland and the Northeast) seeking better wages and safer conditions, travelled to the South East to work at Snowdown Colliery.[3] Due to this the people of Aylesham have developed a unique dialect, which was the subject of a 2016 article in the Transactions of the Yorkshire Dialect Society. Most residents use the short [a] in words such as bath, as is common in the northern half of the country, and a schwa in words such as strut, as in common in Wales. Some older residents also use glottal stops for the definite article, as in Yorkshire and Lancashire.

+++

As the village expands the local accent/dialect will become more diluted. Words like jitty might survive, others like snap might well not.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 07:27 AM

When I was far younger I could tell which village/town an individual came from. For instance the difference in accent between say Salford and Swinton was quite dramatic.

However a friend of mine lived in Hull where he often visited the Library at Hull University. The Librarian there was Philip Larkin the renown poet. He apparently could tell which STREET you lived in by your accent!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 07:37 AM

What in the name of all that’s holy is a ‘schwa’? Never heard of such a thing. Mind you, we all talk raight out ‘ere in t’backwoods!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 08:09 AM

The schwa is the sound the of the 'e' in 'the' when you say 'the schwa'.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 08:28 AM

Hmmmmm…

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 08:43 AM

Anyone else remember the Fred Wedlock song about somebody taking the wrong route wth a caravan in tow?

"Thee's got thic wur thee cassan backun assan'"

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 09:19 AM

We always thought we could tell Radcliffe from Bury from Bolton from Oldham from Rochdale from Ozzletwizzle (sorry) from Accrington...

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 11:54 AM

My husband has been a little bit influenced by my interest in accents, and can identify/imitate quite a few. In Tesco the other day, we decided to try Yorkshire Tea for a change (our Typhoo packet had run out) He lifted the box from the shelf and bellowed out "Eeee ba goom!!" A bloke standing nearby folded up laughing.
He also tries a few phrases on our very Norfolk neighbour: "R yew oroit? Oim oroit!" but he can be naughty too. He absolutely loves the joke about 'Norfolk and Good'. Any opportunity and he'll come out with that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 02:26 PM

Mrs Steve has been forcing me to endure the horror that is Yorkshire Tea, on a purely experimental basis, for several weeks. Finally, we've both agreed that it is watery, insipid, weird-tasting stuff that fails to have the desired effect on my demeanour. It's back to the pyramids for us, and the remaining Yorkshire tea bags are bagged up, waiting for someone with, er, strange tastes to gleefully claim them...

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 02:52 PM

Oh dear Steve, we entirely agree with your opinion. The supermarket didn't have any Typhoo, but we'll try tomorrow to get some at Morrisons. My neighbour-across-the-road might like to accept the Yorkshire Muck we bought. Eee ba gumm, it had a rather weird flavour.
For some odd reason, native Norfolk people's speech is riddled with malapropisms, which make me laugh. Sustificate for example. My neighbour calls my Spirea plant the Diarrhoeia plant. She told me only yesterday that a chap who lives up the road is an 'aromatic'. I couldn't figure this out, so she elaborated, "Yew nao, he goos in a namblance" so I gathered she meant paramedic. I was imagining a very sweet-smelling bloke.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 04:02 PM

Maybe the Yorkshire tea is intended for brewing in Yorkshire water. If you are in a hard water area, tea designed for soft water will be useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 04:02 PM

It's not just accents that vary, vocabulary can vary in 'interesting' ways.
In Fort William I was warned that if someone asked where I was staying, they didn't mean 'Are you staying in the Glen Nevis camp site or the hotel?' They meant 'Where do you live?'
When I went to the top of Ben Nevis (it was a few years ago, now) there was a group of fireman from Bolton at the top. I think they were being sponsored in aid of something. They were speculating about the purpose of the little hut, and eventually one of them went over to investigate. He reported that: 'It says "Refuge". It's for putting your rubbish in.'

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 04:12 PM

In Glasgow, I learned that one 'claps' dogs. This does not mean give them a round of applause (like 'clapping the NHS') It means to stroke them. In Norfolk, one 'coaxes' dogs. (pronounced cooox) I'm not sure what one is trying to coax them to do. Perhaps not to poo on the pavements of our village.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 05:32 PM

My Lancashire accent is absolutely rock-solid, undiminished and uninfluenced, even after 34 years in Cornwall.

I moved from the Mersey to the Humber via Manchester almost 50 years ago. My Liverpool accent has somewhat had the edges knocked off and I would now define it as undefined northern, unless I get excited when it goes up a few semi-tones and the Scouser comes out.

My father-in-law was born in Poland but lived in France from the age of 12 to 29. He arrived in England after the Second World War where he lived for 40 another years but he still sounded like a Pole up to the day he died.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 06:02 PM

Having been a missionary worker, sent from Lancashire to yorkshire nigh on 40 years ago, I have to say that Yorkshire tea is prepared especially for the water in Yorkshire, which tends to lack the excessive minerals found in the south.

Made with southern water it is abysmal, made with the water it was created for it is fine ................ and that's coming from a Lancastrian.

A case for softies being better!!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 07:20 PM

Nah then, Raggytash, the water in Bude is just about the softest in the whole of this sceptred isle, yet Yorkshire tea brewed with it still tastes like poisonous shite...

Incidentally, when I want a mug of tea I still ask Mrs Steve to mash a tea bag for me...

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: JennieG
Date: 30 Jul 21 - 07:55 PM

Helen - I remember that excellent series. Just about every library I worked at after it came out had the book which I also read.

We have turned off the TV when accents become just too difficult to understand, accents from various parts of the British Isles. They might be speaking English, but that doesn't mean we understand what is being said.

When visiting Canada - Ontario in particular - we, two Aussies born and bred, have been mistaken for British. A complaint made about Ozzies is that we sometimes speak quickly so we slow down for the Canadians, with the result being the question "Are you English?" "Noooo........" we reply.

The late John Clarke presented an interesting program a few years ago on Aussie English, "The sounds of Aus", taking into account many of the regional dialects from the British Isles which have gone into making our current accent. There's a bit of everywhere in our accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Helen
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 01:09 AM

Jennie, I missed the John Clarke program. He was a classic. An honorary Aussie! I remember on one of his shows he was wearing a green and gold track suit with Straya printed on the back.

I'm fairly sure that I ordered the book of The Story of English for the library branch I worked in, and bought a copy for myself as well after seeing the show on SBS-TV (I think, or was it ABC?).

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 03:16 AM

I don't mind Yorkshire tea at all but I do now live in Yorkshire! Some years back though one of the discount stores, possibly Home Bargains, did a Lancashire Tea which was far better and half the price. Talking of Lancashire I believe the following passage, written phonetically, was used in training ticket staff at British Rail

"A mon an a dog tut bongs an bi bludy andy, surrey"

Or

Please may I have a single adult ticket and a ticket for my dog to Tyldsley and would you please hurry as the train is due.

"Surrey" (Sorry) in this context is derogatory. Probably short for sorry state. My grandad used it but I never really found out the etymology. My grandma, who was a bit posher, often used to tell him to speak English:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 03:17 AM

Norfolk was invaded and settled by Anglo-Saxons, who apparently had the 'th' sound in their language. There are many place names here with Thorpe in them, a Saxon word meaning 'settlement'. I used to take pupils to Thetford Forest occasionally, and they made me smile by pronouncing it 'Thet-thord Thorest' rather lispily. They used to insert that 'th' sound into many words.
There is a town here called Themelthorpe! The residents must sound as if they've forgotten to put their false teeth in.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 03:24 AM

My elderly Bristol relatives didn't wash their hands, they 'swilled' them.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 03:25 AM

Jennie, I visited my Irish aunt and uncle in Ontario in the sixties and was amused when the 'natives' kept asking me to 'say something!'. I still had my rather Cockney accent, which they couldn't get enough of.
I agree that 'Southern' tap water is pretty dire - very hard. Glasgow water was soft and delicious.
Neighbour didn't really want the Yorkshire teabags - "Oi dornt reck'n oi loik that there Yooorkshire tay. Thass gart a waird tairst hint it?"

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 03:49 AM

“Surrey" (Sorry) in this context is derogatory. Probably short for sorry state. My grandad used it but I never really found out the etymology.”

Dave, I worked for a number of years over the border in Nottinghamshire, and ‘Surrey’ was a frequently-used expression by the locals. Several of them told me, and I had no reason to doubt them, that it’s a corruption of ‘sirree’, used to intensify a word or phrase, e.g. “Oh yes sirree!”.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 04:42 AM

"'Southern' tap water is pretty dire - very hard"

Not all of it is hard. I asked the D.J. Miles tea company (in Porlock and Minehead) whether they meant hard or soft water when they said their tea was blended to suit West Country water, and it turned out they meant water in their bit of the West Country, which is soft. But not far away in north-east Somerset the water is extremely hard. There was a rumour that this meant more than the usual number of people living to a hundred in Weston-super-Mare.
When I first lived where I am now we had lovely water sourced from underground aquifers. Some time probably in the 1980s the water suddenly changed and was no longer a pleasure to drink. So many houses had been built that the aquifers could no longer cope, and we started getting chemically treated water from the rivers. It was a nasty shock.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 05:00 AM

Could well be, BWM. Mrs G seemed to think that the derogatory term was the right root and, in the context of the posted phrase, it seems right but there is no reason to doubt the root you give either. Funny old thing, language!

One thing just sprang to mind about the Bill Bryson book I mentioned earlier. There are bands across the UK that use "one and twenty" as opposed to the more common "twenty one". Anyone here use that?

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 05:16 AM

I grew up quite used to people saying 'five and twenty past' or five and twenty to' when telling the time. It is so normal for me that I have no idea when I last heard it. It could have been yesterday - I wouldn't even notice.
And there is 'Sing a song of sixpence', of course: 'Four-and-twenty blackbirds ...'.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 05:21 AM

My parents used to say ‘five and twenty’, meaning twenty-five (Lincolnshire). I think I used to use the expression in my youth but, as it fell out of favour generally, I guess I just ‘dropped’ it.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 05:32 AM

One of my Grandmothers would always say it's five and twenty past the hour. It amused me as a child.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 07:07 AM

"Twenty-four blackbirds" don't scan, Jos!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 07:47 AM

I couldn't even scan one blackbird. It kept flying off.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: banjoman
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 07:55 AM

I left Liverpool almost 50 years ago and am proud of my scouse accent. People I meet almost all know at once that I am from Liverpool.
Its good to see that most here support the upkeep of regional accents.
I have not been posting much lately as the arthritis is really bad now. Took over 10 minutes to write this. but enjoy all the threads

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 08:46 AM

"Twenty-seven blackbirds" would have scanned. Maybe the other three flew away though, or the price for twenty-seven birds was more than sixpence.

To go back to accents, I used to think the pronunciation of "ask" as "arks" was a West Indian feature, but then I saw a Punch cartoon from the nineteenth century in which a Cockney character used it.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 08:49 AM

Sorry to hear that, mate. Have you tried dictating your posts? Daft things do get thrown up via that method, it's true, but we'd let you off!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 09:20 AM

Five and twenty was used when I was small, but it was used in those situations where the speaker was giving a considered opinion rather than a quick reply; as though savouring the sound of the spoken word.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 09:51 AM

I get cross when some people declare that a certain accent isn't 'nice'. There are apparently a few that aren't popular. For instance Brummie (Birmingham area), Essex, Estuary English (innit?) Northern Irish and so on. Southern Irish is 'good', as is Somerset, Highlands and R bloomin' P. I can't see why there should be this 'hierarchy'.
We should celebrate and be proud of our plethora of accents and dialects. I love diversity. We aren't clones are we?

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 10:07 AM

Southern Irish Senoufou? Which Southern Irish are you referring to.

The Cork accent is vastly different from the Kerry accent and the Kerry accent is vastly different from the Wexford accent. Needless to say the Wexford accent is vastly differnt to the Galway accent



..................... you get the picture :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 11:00 AM

Ha ha Raggytash! I expect there are adjacent towns/villages in Eire where the accent changes. My mother, born in Cork, had a lovely brogue, which stood out among our slightly Cockney-ish neighbours.
I well remember as a child seeing dreadful signs in the windows of houses with a room to let :- 'No Irish No Dogs No Blacks'
Maybe certain accents conjure up detrimental ideas about people's origins and cultures. But that in itself is interesting and sociologically worth studying.
(Well, I DID study Sociology (and Anthropology and Psychology) at University, among other subjects, for my Masters degree and Postgraduate Teaching Qualification)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 02:11 PM

As a Manc I always check my wallet when I hear a scouse accent...

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 02:39 PM

Blame Kipling:
"Five and twenty ponies, trotting through the dark . . ."

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 02:53 PM

I see that Alex Scott, the Olympics presenter is being castigated for dropping her "g"s, as is Priti Patel, of course.

I suppose the thing is that it does not sound like it is a proper part of the accent.

I know that it jars when I hear it from Priti Patel as the rest of her speech sounds close to RP.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Helen
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 03:14 PM

One of the pronunciations in Oz which surprises me a bit is a particular way of saying "o" as in "home" but - it's hard to describe - it's sort of nasal, but drawn out, and almost like "ho-ome" but with an exaggerated emphasis on the first "o" sound. More like "hoe-em". The nasal sound is in the first syllable. This might not help but the first "o" sound reminds me of a vacuum cleaner when the nozzle sticks to something and there is a deep humming sound.

It surprises me when some of the (Oz) ABC-TV news people say it. It seems to be mostly young women, and possibly from Melbourne. The next time I hear it I'll take note of the presenter's name and see if I can find a video of her.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 04:18 PM

It jars when I hear anything said by Priti Patel.

Dave, the commonest remark made by any Yorkshireman is "Does it cost owt? "

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 04:40 PM

I've heard some odd pronunciations lately. I suspect that people are learning new words by reading instead of hearing them, so they guess at how to pronounce them.
A recent example was 'hyperbole', which was pronounced as 'hyper-bowl', like some superlative kind of Superbowl.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: JennieG
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 06:12 PM

Likewise, Eliza......"oh, we just lurve your accent" say the Ontarians. We don't think we have an accent. The rest of the world does, but we don't.

We think it's because more Europeans visit the east side of Canada, and most Ozzies visit the west side, so the folk in Ontario aren't as used to hearing it. One man with a strong Irish/Canadian accent actually thanked us for coming to Toronto, he said "we don't get many Ozzies!"

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 06:27 PM

Nah, Steve, the phrase is "How fuckin' much?!?!?!"

Hear all
See all
Say Nowt
Eat all
Sup all
Pay nowt
and if tha' does owt for nowt, do it fer thisen!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 21 - 06:39 PM

That will live with me forever, Dave! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 03:50 AM

@JennieG - we go to both sides (we’re UK-ers), Ontario to visit my wife’s brother and his family, and AB/BC because we love it there and can’t get enough of it! Every trip, be it East or West, someone (usually several someones) asks us where we’re from and remarks on our ‘cute accent’ (which, as we’re from an area more or less between Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire, and Yorkshire, is a kind of mish-mash of those three, and is far from standard ‘BBC’ English). It feels really, really strange to be told we have a ‘cute accent’ because, to our own ears, we don’t have an accent at all, it’s the nice Canadians complimenting us who have the accent!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 05:08 AM

When I asked someone with a North American accent in a pub whether she was from Canada she was delighted, as people usually assumed she was from the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 05:31 AM

When I first arrived in Norfolk (decades ago!) I rented a tiny flat in Norwich, near to the school where I took up a teaching post. My Norwich pupils spoke in a particular Norwich accent, and I later learned that it is quite different to the rural Norfolk one. More nasal, with more glottal stops.
When I did voluntary Prison Visiting in many English prisons, 'my' prisoners were from all over the place. One was a Scouser and his accent was very entertaining. He sang me little Liverpool songs and made jokes in his lovely accent. The Visits could last up to two hours in a large Visits Room, and that gave me plenty of time to study the collection of speech patterns and dialects from both the inmates and their wives/girlfriends.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 06:04 AM

For me the Digby Jones v Alex Scott thing is bizarre. She speaks perfectly clearly and is easily understood. The idea that he can dictate who does and who doesn't speak "properly" is just so wrong. So she doesn't pronounce the "g" in "ng" but there are various accents like that. We all speak differently. Some English folks nowadays really emphasise the middle "g" in words like singing. We Scots of course often pronounce the letter "r" whereas English folk often don't. We are all different and life is all the more interesting for that.

Digby still having a go at her on GB News and really privileged ex-public school and House of Lords types bullying ordinary young women over how they speak is never going to sit that well with most folk. Especially when she is easy to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 06:13 AM

Maybe we should have a go back at Lord Digby for setting a bad example by presenting himself in public as an overweight, rather slobby-looking chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 06:31 AM

accents change, the old Essex rural accent that i remember from the 1950s 1960S has gone like the corncrake, its there but rarely heard

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 07:56 AM

When I first heard about Lord Digby’s attack on the very capable and knowledgeable Alex Scott, I thought it had to be an unfair judgement, probably based on class or geographical prejudice. However, when I actually heard her in action, I lasted about ten seconds before screaming at the TV: ‘ It’s not runnin, boxin, swimmin, rowin!!!!!’

Yes, it was perfectly easy to understand what she meant, but truly distracting coming from a professional BBC commentator.

But then….

‘It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him.’ (GBS)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 08:11 AM

Runnin, swimmin, boxin, etc., are what millions of us say (includin me). I absolutely don't mind the knowledgeable and articulate Alex pronouncin her words that way. Objectin to that puts us on the slippery slope towards prescription. Just sayin.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 11:25 AM

It should become a silent G. Like the silent P in wranglers

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 01:29 PM

About Yorkshire tea... and tea in general.

I was given some nice Yorkshire tea when I hosted several Brits in Maryland a few years ago. It was fine, but I almost never use teabags. I have preferred different types of loose tea with specific origins for over 60 years.
That being said, I can barely comprehend how people can tell one tea bag from another if they put milk in it. Perhaps there are subtle differences that require taste buds more 'highly trained' than mine. ;>).
Even then, I see that Yorkshire teas come in a variety of types ... including 'some' loose. I suppose certain ones are more common in areas where the hardness of the water is relevant. How they process and source tea to complement the water in not clear.
   Note..I have had Twinings a lot, and Fortnum & Mason, but not recently. I have also tried Typhoo... quite a while ago. These days it is very difficult here to find loose tea in shops, except for one chain which treats it as a snobby hobby.
I finally found a combo market and restaurant owned by Persians, but which carries many Middle Eastern items... and boxed & tinned loose tea. I must be very careful, as probably half their teas feature Oil of Bergamot.. as in Earl Grey. I don't dislike it, but it's not always clear on the label and when I thought I was buying simple Ceylon, it's frustrating.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 01:31 PM

Huntin', shootin' and fishin'.

He should look closer to home for those missing gs.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 02:17 PM

Ol’ Diggers hasn’t criticised Not-So-Priti Patel for droppin her Gs in exactly the same way as Alex Scott, has he? Funny, that.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 02:42 PM

The way she talks reminds me of the way Martin Jarvis reads the dialogue spoken by William when he tells the "Just William" stories on Radio 4.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: fat B****rd
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 02:43 PM

I was naive enough to think that people like Digby were almost obsolete. Who's a cock eyed optimist then!? :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Raedwulf
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 03:30 PM

It's the meejuh, alas, Sen, as you say. It's something I've commented on (not here) ere now. Language morphs, diction morphs; under the influence of mass media, I'm afraid it all drifts towards a bland commonality.

Have you ever Kipled, madame? ;-) He often wrote not merely in the vernacular, but attempted to represent speech as it sounded. In his earlier days, there were The Soldiers Three (Mulvaney - Ortheris - Learoyd; Oirish - Corknee - Yaaarkshure). Towards the end of his career, there was Zussex in a lot of his stories. But that same zlow, zoft tone was also in the idealised schoolboy tales of the much earlier Stalky & Co.

That slow, soft accent is (or was) the southern country accent. All the way from the uttermost West to the uttermost East! I doubt you can find an authentic Ezzex accent now; it's all been overtaken / overlaid by "Estuary" Hinglish. But I have heard it in recordings. It used to be the tone of the whole of southern England. Not just Devon, Dorset, Norfolk & Suffolk; Zussex, Ezzex, Kent & Etc too.

I'd like to say it's been displaced; alas, it hasn't moved, it's disappeared. Mmmmm… where is it? Ahhh… the biggest influence on language is mass media & has been for 40-odd years now. Practically every house now has at least one TV. For many years, we all watched the same small handful of channels, so we all watched the same programmes. The never-watched (Soap operas? ARRRGH!!) Eastenders has been running for 35 years now. Has geezer become more widely used as a result (it must feature from time to time, if it's claiming to be set in the East End)? I imagine so.

I've seen quite a few laments about the dumbing down of English over the years. Let's go back to guising – if you're not familiar with the term, the simplest way of explaining it is to tell you it's adults trick-or-treating. How many words & phrases have we imported from US English because of the number of imported American programmes on our TV screens? We never imported their radio shows (and whilst there's Hollywood, the language of films always tended to be more formal in the days before mass TV). And the mass media effect is no doubt even more exaggerated now by the internet & social media.

The irony is that whilst the BBC long ago abandoned Received Pronunciation, and you hear every accent going on TV these days, we are actually losing the variety of both dialect & accent. Wot's an Essex accent, guv? Because that's what you probably think of, but that isn't the native county accent, which you quite possibly will no longer find at all. The native accent right across the south used to be the sort of soft burr we now associate with 'Zummerzet'. But read any of Kipling's Sussex-set short stories, and you'll hear the authentic Zussex accent as it used to be just a century ago.

They've been displaced partly by the diaspora of better off Londoners having moved out to nicer areas, but also by the homogenising effect of TV. Dialect seemingly is being replaced by slang – the 'secret' language of your sub-culture, rather than the local language of where you live. And that phenomenon is being replicated globally too – why bother teaching your kids your native tongue, when there's only 5,000 speakers? Your national language, spoken by 5 million, and English, spoken globally, are far more useful...

I think that pretty much covers my thoughts on the matter. The only other thing to add is that I've no interest in what some random idiot thinks of Alex Scott's voice, but she's a bloody crap pundit, and she only gets employed (along with Carney, "Ebbers", etc) because the BBC are openly agendaist, and nakedly, blatantly, flagrantly sexist. They do NOT employ male pundits on female team sports; they do not employ male pundits who do not meet their unspoken, unwritten, but extremely obvious 'requirements'. They do employ women who don't meet those requirements, which inescapably leads to the conclusion that the unqualified female pundits are employed solely because they are female... Which is sexist. And if you want to discuss that, I'm happy to explain my thoughts further, but not here, please. Open another thread, don't hijack this one (Sorry, Sen, but the last comments were...).

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 03:58 PM

I think she's a breath of fresh air. As is Jermaine.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Allan Conn
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 04:07 PM

Surely she is just as qualified as Gary Lineker, Sue Barker etc etc. It is a long standing thing that retired sports people go on to be pundits and sometimes presenters.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Raedwulf
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 04:20 PM

Elsewhere, folks, elsewhere. I commented only because a number of comments had already been made. Accents and presenters / pundits are totally different subjects. This wouldn't be a meander (which is very much the Mudcat way! ;-) ) but a hijack. Let's not, please. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 04:43 PM

I remember, as a child, holidaying in Brightlingsea in north Essex. I was sent to buy newspapers and was amazed at the strength of the local accents. It was so strong that when I asked for a Sunday Mirror it turned out the local pronunciation was Sunday Pictorial!
Some thirty years ago I was surprised to find Essex accents in a small pocket near
Corbets Tey just inside the M25. I bet they've been swamped now.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 05:16 PM

Well I'm not privy as to the reasons Alex was employed as a pundit/presenter. As far as I can see, she's qualified in multifarious ways: she's attractive, she's articulate, she's a sportswoman of considerable achievement (recognised by the state, in fact), she speaks with considerable clarity, she's upbeat and cheery, and, generally, she appears to know what she's talking about. Of course, all that is just my opinion. Your opinion is that she's a bloody crap pundit, etc., then you berate the BBC for employing her, then, the icing on the cake, you try to prevent the rest of us from commenting in the thread you've raised all this in. I find that just a bit weird.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 05:46 PM

I'm a bit biased because she hails from Poplar in east London, where I lived for several years in the 70s (in Robin Hood Gardens) and taught there in a secondary school from 1973-80. I think it's great that a girl from that background (I use the word girl, as opposed to person, advisedly) can come good in the way she's done, and the last thing I'd want for her is for the flabby and outmoded Lord Digbys of this world to be imposing his idea of the Queen's English on her. Go, Alex!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 02 Aug 21 - 04:17 AM

Regarding 'The way she talks reminds me of the way Martin Jarvis reads the dialogue spoken by William when he tells the "Just William" stories on Radio 4.'

Martin Jarvis reads it that way because Richmal Crompton wrote it that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Aug 21 - 05:00 AM

Lord Digby is an out-and-out SNOB.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 02 Aug 21 - 05:37 AM

Exactly Jos, but it still takes an effort to translate the written word into that accent.
It is interesting that Richmal Crompton was brought up in Lancashire, moved to Derbyshire, taught in South East London and then started her writings.
I presume that it was the latter location that prompted her to give William that accent.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Allan Conn
Date: 02 Aug 21 - 10:51 AM

There is quite an interesting piece in one book I have which shows how people often simply don’t recognise their own prejudices. It is a book called “Being English In Scotland” written by Murray Watson and it contains info compiled by Dundee Uni.

One of the people interviewed was Kenneth Silver who was the rector at Jedburgh Grammar School when I was there in the mid 70s. He is quoted talking about how incomers were received by us.

“Reaction to English born people was varied. Among the native pupils, many of whom spoke a slovenly form of English with broad vowels, there was a quite obvious reaction on occasions to those English born immigrants who joined them. Those with strong regional accents (eg cockney or West Midlands) were allegedly not able to be understood and they were often poorly mimicked and/or ridiculed”

I am sure he has a point in that kids are kids everywhere and can be cruel. However we were kids! He is a responsible adult who in the same paragraph as condemning how local children ridiculed regional accents actually calls the Borders dialect “slovenly English” and I imagine he saw no contradiction in that. He himself was English but in truth he didn’t need to be as there are plenty enough Scots who dislike how Scots speak too.

There was one incident that stuck in my mind though. Our normal History teacher was absent and Silver ended up taking the class. He got extremely annoyed with me for saying “aye” instead of “no” in fact so much so that I ended up getting detention. The deputy rector Alastair Allan, who I had a lot of time for, was taking the detention. When I entered he said “och laddie whit’ve ye been daein nou” which kind of made me laugh.

The daft thing of course was that as well as being the common word for “yes” in this area the word “aye” is a perfectly good word in Standard English too.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Aug 21 - 03:34 PM

Oh Allan I can so relate to this account! In the early seventies I was a newly-qualified teacher in Bruntsfield Primary School in Edinburgh.
I thank my lucky stars I have quite a good ear for accents and can imitate them, because I often felt the Scots did not like the fact I was English. (In 1973, John McGrath's 'The Cheviot The Stag And The Black Black Oil' came out and I attended a performance. My word, the anti-English atmosphere in the theatre was tangible!)
I spoke in a rather nice Miss Jean Brodie accent, and this plus my Scottish surname (a town up in Caithness) got me through the prejudice.
Also, when doing a spelling test with my pupils, it was obvious to me that words such as 'girl', 'pearl' and 'unfurl' were far better pronounced in 'Scottish'. I always said, girrul, perrril and unfurrrel which gave the children hints as to the spelling. (far better than geul,peul and unfeul which is how they sound in RP)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 02 Aug 21 - 05:08 PM

Ha, Allan there's a similar story aboot the wee laddie hae'in' tae explain himself tae the heidie in Billy Kay's book: "Scots - the Mither Tongue".
Now, I'm another of those who is stuck with the accent of their childhood, though maybe it is nowhere near as broad as it was. I was brought up first in Essex, to age 9, then Suffolk, and when I first went to Uni in London, was laughed at for my "local yokel" accent. 7 years in the East End of London may have Cocknified it a bit, as well as adding a few of the old Yiddish phrases, as the East End still then had a sizeable Jewish population. After London, Sussex for 3 years, Devon for 3, Cheshire and Shropshire for 7, back to Suffolk for 2 years (hooray!) before moving to Scotland 35 years ago.
Despite our long stay in Scotland, and my mother being Scottish, I don't have a Scottish accent, though I have acquired a lot of Scottish phraseology from my Scots-speaking freens here - muckle mair than I ever learned frae ma mither! And I have no idea what my mother's accent was: she having been born in Aberdeen but brought up in Greenock!
I think that the majority of people don't change their accent much beyond their teenage years: a few exceptions, as with your friend acquiring the Kiwi accent, Steve. We certainly saw changes in our daughter's accent, who went from Shropshire sing-song to broad Suffolk, but changed very rapidly after we moved to Scotland when she was 9: didn't want to be called "that English girl" at school!
As for the "dumbing down" or homogenising of accents, my husband, a Devonian, also feels that the proper job Devon accent is being steadily diluted by all the people from London and Brum who move down to the West Country: but even his own accent is far less broad than that of his old pals who have continued to live in Devon throughout their lives.
And as for disliked accents, my mother was mortified when my sister and I developed our Suffolk accents! I just love to hear it, Norfolk as well, Senofou: it's a very difficult accent to imitate unless you have lived there: very few actors can do it convincingly: usually comes out as "standard BBC rural".

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Rain Dog
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 03:41 AM

Call You & Yours on BBC Radio 4 today at 12.18 might be of interest to some.

Call You & Yours: Do people treat you differently because of your accent?

The crossbench peer Lord Digby Jones has criticised presenter Alex Scott's pronunciation during BBC coverage of the Olympics. He objected to the way that the TV presenter and former professional footballer drops the letter 'g'. He tweeted: Enough! I can’t stand it anymore! Competitors are NOT taking part in the fencin, rowin, boxin, kayakin, weightliftin & swimmin.

Alex Scott responded saying she's proud of her accent and working-class, east London roots.

We want to know: do people treat you differently because of your accent?

Perhaps you've felt the need to change the way you speak in order to get on in the workplace, or in social circles. Or do you have an accent that has opened doors for you? What assumptions do you think people have made about you, because of the way you speak?

Call You & Yours

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Allan Conn
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 04:04 AM

I must admit apart from if someone comes out with a word like "squit" I struggle to tell a Norfolk accent from a west country type accent - but my wife can tell the difference straight away. I can tell by her grimace if an actor is getting Norfolk wrong. She herself seemingly has a bit of peculiar accent now though I don't notice it but hr friends from down south do. You can still tell she is English but after 33 years with me her vocab is littered with Scotticisms. So to her Norfolk friends she sounds Scottish but to folk up here she doesn't. When she moved up at first about 33 years ago she did speak like a bit like an English newsreader. Whenever my clients would phone the house and Claire answered I would later have them saying "how did you get such a posh wife" but she honestly wasn't posh she just didn't have any regional accent at all.

My sister and brother-in-law moved from Jedburgh here in the Borders down to Durham about 30 odd years ago too. He has a strange mix-max of Durham and Borders now whereas she speaks exactly the same as she did all those years ago. She is quite broad Border Scots speaking really but you can get away with it in the north-east of England as their dialect isn't that different.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 04:20 AM

There are plenty of other BBC presenters whose pronunciation is far from perfect. We hear about ‘shtreets’, or ‘shtudents’ frequently from the traffic-reporter on the Ken Bruce programme, ‘Febuary’, ‘Wensday’, ‘sikth’, ‘restauranteur’, ‘mischiev-i-ous’, etc., etc. regularly on other shows and news programmes.

So I wonder why that fat, greasy, plummy-mouthed ball-bag has chosen to single out as the sole victim of his venom and vitriol a young, attractive ex-international sportswoman, who is currently carving out a successful new career for herself? Presumably he objects to ‘common people’ like her getting ‘above her station’?

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 04:53 AM

Yes, you do wonder whether our language is deteriating... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 04:59 AM

;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 05:57 AM

I keep hearing that something has decayed and then realise that they mean the noun decade.

As a general rule nouns have the stress on the first sylable and verbs on the second.

Quite a few words get said the wrong way; project was one I heard the other day.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jos
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 06:30 AM

I frequently mishear/misunderstand what I hear on the radio even when it is pronounced correctly. For example, "a tax on" is indistinguishable from "attacks on" - both of which occur often in news broadcasts.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 01:44 PM

I think a tax on Boris Johnson and attacks on fizzy lager would be quite acceptable

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 04:59 PM

There are even Radio program titles that are open to being misheard.
I was expecting a bunch of irate very old people when I heard "Crossing Continents" was about to be on.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 02:48 AM

grockle   devon for tourist
emmet. cornwall for holidaymaker

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 03:23 AM

Grockle was Somerset as well.
Grocklebusting was the practice employed by the local fast car owning youths who would overtake a line of tourists, deliberately zooming past and inserting their car into the next space, one car at a time, even where you could overtake several at once. On one long straight you might overtake four cars in a balletic movement. A bit like some Northwest Morris dance moves!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 03:31 AM

The first tme I heard ‘grockle’ was from locals in Hastings, East Sussex.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 03:31 AM

Last night I was enjoying the TV channel of old 70s & 80s pop music, and on came 'Ernie - He drove the fastest milkcart in the West' with Benny Hill. He was actually born in Southampton (Hampshire) but he had the Somerset accent off to a T. Also, the Wurzels (Oi've got a brand new combine 'arvester') I find both these songs hilarious!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 03:36 AM

Just to add, some people try to copy 'Norfolk' speech but end up using the Somerset accent. We are indeed 'carrot crunchers' here in Norfolk, (rural/farming folk) but the accent is very different from that of the west of England.
Loved the idea of annoying grockles by doing a Morris dance routine with ones car! Bit dangerous though hee hee.
We're 'inundairted' here at the moment with tourists at the coast (Yarmouth etc) and they chuck litter all over the place, plus cause parking problems. Ah well. If they're from that there Lunnon, yew dew feel a bit saary fer them dornt yew?

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 04:58 AM

Wot Dick said. Emmets means ants. That's what streams of tourists swarming down yer in summer remind us of.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 05:44 AM

I remember Charlie Yarwood recounting that Mervyn Vincet had told him he was going to call tourists hemorroids from now on.
The reasoning was that they weren't wanted, came down in bunches and were a pain in the arse!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 12:35 PM

We have the same problem with friends up here in Scotland, Senofou: I have some of my Suffolk accent left, and my husband has his Devon one, but people assume we come from the same place! To me they are quite different! They don't roll the rrrs in Suffolk as they do in Devon - just elongate the vowels, as you do in your phonetic Norfolk!
But then, when we first came to live in Scotland - 35 years ago now - I couldn't distinguish all the Scots regional variations. I now know the Weegies (Glaswegians)from the Aberdonians and Edinburghers, and the Western isles from Orkney and Shetland. But my friends in West Lothian can tell if someone is from the next town 5 miles away!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 02:45 PM

I used to work in what was then the DVLC in Morrison near Swansea (had its own folk club!).
After a couple of years I could tell which valley people were from. I would not be able to do it today.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 03:25 PM

Ah yes Tattie, I eventually managed to identify quite a few Scots accents from different regions when I lived 'up there'. But I'm sure there are dozens more I never quite distinguished. And how interesting that you (Suffolk) and your husband (West Country) are both thought to be from the same place!
You're right that Norfolk folk elongate their vowels. I had a much-loved neighbour in our last village who was very houseproud. She was always tut-tutting at the mucky houses she'd been in. Apparently they were, as she said, "Contaaaaaaaaaaaminated." My husband picked this word up, and as he's a school cleaner, he often comes home saying,"Them blooming boys' toilets were contaaaaaminated!" (With a hint of an African-French accent too of course)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: HuwG
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 08:54 PM

A brief discursion on my own orphaned accent. Im earlier posts I mentioned that my intonation was Welsh but my construction purely English.

In February last year, I underwent a major operation. I woke up with one side of my face drooping and slobbering my words. I had suffered a stroke during the operation and had dysarthria, which is mechanical difficulty in speaking caused by numbness of lips, tongue and sometimes the vocal chords, not to be confused with aphasia which is difficulty in formulating coherent words and sentences.

I will give myself marks. My attitude was, "I have at least woken up. Let's build on that." Some six days later, I found that I could speak again, but my Welsh accent, which previously had been fairly muted, was now much more marked, to the extent that fellow patients on the ward found me to be incomprehensible. The accent has since faded once more into the background, but I sometimes joke that my accent is evidence of brain damage.

The stroke management team at the hospital seemed to lose interest in my case when I could pronounce "dysarthria".

Imcidentally, my accent originated with my mother's family, who are from the same part of Wales that gave us Richard Burton, Anthony Hopkins, Martin Sheen and presumably other members of the acting Taffia. However, except for brief periods, I have always lived in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 03:15 AM

I'm so sorry you had to go through that Huw - very worrying and distressing for you and your family. But well done for your determination to push through to a recovery of your speech. I absolutely love your word for Welsh people - 'The Taffia'!!
When our cats were around (all dead now, sadly) I often found myself breaking into an Irish accent (which is how my mother spoke, especially strong when she was cross) if one had scratched the furniture or brought in a mouse.
I sometimes wonder if there is a genetic link to language and accent with memory cells in our brains. (While munching on a buttered crumpet, I often sound like a cave-woman - grunt grunt mmph mmph! Primitive genetic link?)

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Allan Conn
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 04:40 AM

It is pretty much the same here in the Borders where locals can often tell what part of the Scottish Borders you come from and even sometimes what town. Hawick is particularly easy to distinguish as it has retained more of the "yow and mey" of the Borders Dialect of Scots that other towns have.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 05:32 AM

Didn't Mick Tems, Dr Price here, have a similar experience with his stroke?
I seem to remember Pattie telling me that when she went to see him first in hospital that he could only speak in Welsh, which is not his first language.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: HuwG
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 04:13 PM

Senoufou: "Taffia" is any group of Welsh people who practice nepotism or live in an ethnic enclave.

See Wiktionary.

It is a standing joke that, in the enclosed communities of the valleys, it is sometimes impossible to avoid nepotism. It is also a joke that corruption is what you suspect when the man awarded the contract is not related to anyone on the planning committee.

There is also the one about the well-off Englishman who is building a second home for himself in West Wales (a perennial source of discontent). Annoyed at the lack of progress, he asks the builders' foreman if there is any Welsh equivalent to the Spanish word "Mañana". The foreman thinks about it for a while and replies "Nothing that conveys quite the same sense of urgency."

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 04:33 PM

In North Wales, I'd stand a chance at picking out Bangor as they are supposed to say "aye" after every sentence.

In the Llandudno area I lived in, I think I'd (Shropshire born and not a Welsh speaker) who doesn't speak Welsh) be more likely to pick up whether someone was likely to be a Welsh first language person than anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Aug 21 - 02:46 PM

I Remember walking in to a pub in bradford on avon in the 1980s and i asked for a pint, the landlord spoke approx six words ,i recognised his accent from my childhood , i said are you from lewisham.. he was

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 08 Aug 21 - 03:27 PM

I was talking about recognising West Country accents with a steward who I did not know at Upton festival
one year. He challenged me to guess where he came from. I got within 3 miles.


Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 02:18 PM

Word of Mouth which was on BBC Radio 4 today.

Michael Rosen asks Professor Devyani Sharma about the latest research into accent bias in the UK. Which are the highest and lowest rated accents, and why does it matter so much? Produced by Beth O'Dea for BBC Audio in Bristol More information on the work of the Accent Bias Britain project: https://accentbiasbritain.org/

Word of Mouth

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 04:33 PM

thanks Rain Dog, fascinating

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 02:52 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdffWwi2EEs

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 02:55 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 02:52 AM
dialect of mid ulster

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 03:02 AM

slithering
To walk onward in a sliding motion, especially in a manner that makes others feel uneasy or distrustful. I ignored the sleazebag at the bar until he eventually slithered along to the next woman who caught his eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 03:17 AM

herpling walking in a lame fashion

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 03:37 AM

That's interesting Sandman. Here in Norfolk, the word for limping is 'harpling'.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 03:55 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH8pxfqgSBQ
Part 1: The History
The Doric tongue so common in the North-East is part of the Scots Language. But where did this language come from, and what makes the Doric special? Our two academics Professors Smith

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 03:56 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH8pxfqgSBQ Part 1: The History
The Doric tongue so common in the North-East is part of the Scots Language. But where did this language come from, and what makes the Doric special? Our two academics Professors Smith

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 07:10 PM

Just remembering a holiday we had in Aberdeenshire years ago, visiting my parents, but bringing with us a couple of friends from Devon: though it was 2 farmers talking to each other, neither could understand of word of what the other said!

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 03:09 AM

is it fair then to say that accents were more pronounced when people travelled less,A friend of mine had to act as an interpreter between two people one from kerry one from suffolk.
i have lived in cork county for 31 years but recently experience a 5 minute conversation where i did not understand a word.
this corkonian talked with no movement of the upper lip. i was mystified and left saying go on., away,you dont say, etc, not understanding a feckin word

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Allan Conn
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 06:13 AM

Sometimes mind it is not just the accent. Sometimes people are just very quick speakers or they slur. I know a least two people who speak with the same accent/dialect as me but I can't make them out half the time. Nothing to do with the accent as such. Just very fast and no very clear speakers!!

I did watch a documentary with Shane Macgowan of the Pogues recently. He has always kind of slurred his speech but seems to be worse as he is getting older. I honestly could have done with sub-titles for some of it. I am sure it was more his slurring than it was the London accent - but I was left wondering had he been a Glaswegian or a Geordie they might have slapped subtitles on. You're just kind of expected to make out London accents!!

One US actor I just can't watch is Jesse Eisenberg. Again not because he has any kind of way out accent. He just speaks so fast that I can't be bothered.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 09:30 AM

There is a BBC interview from the past tha I have seen with a man from Strabane.The interviewer keeps stopping him to slow him down but he just speeds up again. The only word you can hear for sure is Strabane!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Aug 21 - 05:01 AM

I remember that Strabane clip.

My parents were from the west of Ireland, Galway city and Claregalway, approx 10 miles outside the city. They lived all their married lives in S.E.Kent. Growing up I got used to hearing their accent and ended up not hearing it at all. Friends would remark on their accents,they never lost them, but i would rarely notice it. It would only be the odd word or two that stood out.

My parents did encourage all of us to speak clearly. I like to think that I still do. One of my aunts told me years later, that when she visited us when we were younger she would struggle to understand me and my siblings when we were talking amongst ourselves. She put it down to our accent and the speed at which we spoke. It was a very talkative household.

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 14 Aug 21 - 08:38 AM

Shane McGowan's accent is a mystery to me.

He went to Holmewood House prep school (not far from me in Speldhurst in my 4 years living in Kent in the 70s) and to Westminster School from there. That (~to me) doesn't really conjure up images of a sort of say rough London accent.

---
Pre Covid, I used to meet up with a few people from Strabane in a local N Norfolk pub (landlord is from there) for a musical weekend. They just sound "Northern Irish" to me.

---
On an another bit, I only remember one person getting my county of birth right. He was the postmaster at the post office/shop in Conwy, N Wales. He (apparently from Shropshire) reckoned my own Shropshire bit (muddled with longer periods then in N Wales twice and Kent) was quite distinctive...

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 21 - 03:08 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzt4wKW7Tsg

Subject: RE: BS: Regional UK Accents
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 21 - 03:09 PM

previous clip norfolk dialect