style not repertoire

Subject: style not repertoire
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 02:01 AM

in this months Living Tradition. Jim Bainbridge said
quote:we developed a much wider view of folk music its place in the community and essentially it was and still is a style rather than a repertoire.
I strongly disagree:
IMO This musical philsophy has certain flaws
1 If i sing god save the queen, or lily the pink or the birdies song acoustic with my concertina in the vocal style of joseph taylor they do not become suddenly folk songs.
Rpertoire is the important factor for me. when i sing in an irish pub my repertoire would change slightly from my perfomance in a folk club.
3. dependent on the folk club my repertoire would change and be adapted slightly, to some extent this is picked up from the material of other performers floor singers residents etc.
when i put together a 40 minute spot it is again repertoire, contrasting subject matters and style is not ruled out entirely because different tempos and different music keys are considered to provide balance and change of sound.
What i find intersting about jim bainbridges statement is that imo it is applicable to Jazz not folk.
Jazz is about improvisation lily the pink or god save the queen or lovely joan as melodies can all be jazzed up or imporovised

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Aug 21 - 03:07 AM

When Steeleye Span performed Folk songs, in a folk rock style they did not stop being folk songs, when Peter Pears sang the water is wide and when cliff pilchard sang the same song it was still a folk song even though i thought Cliff murdered it stylistically.

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 03:09 PM

I suppose I'm more with Jim Bainbridge. I would though rather hear a Folk Singer (my opinion) sing Water is Wide than a drawing room version, though worthy collectors showed them off that way.

My singing teacher had me sing from a Benjy Britten collection of Folk Songs (Trad but copyright BB). She was being sympathetic to me but I have never considered singing any of them out.

Post Zoom I find even more new singers using books or sheets and stands etc. to do recent pop songs. (More recent than any I know) I assume that's the way it will go if there is a 'Folk' music scene again. Music from the people. Not for me I admit.

Tony H sang the likes of 'The mouse in the windmill in old Amsterdam' Why? I asked. Because the audience enjoyed it.

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 03:37 PM

JHW, So are you happy to sing lily the pink or god save the queen or were all going on a summer holiday at a folk festival or at a folk club, as lomg as you do it in a folky style[ what exactly is that is it singing like frankie armstrong or like bob dylan OR LIKE JOSEPH TAYLOR]

I have seen you sing many times and you have obviously considered your repertoire first and foremost, i have heard you sing tam linn,i have never heard you sing bachelor boy.or any cliff richard songs
methinks you are playing devils advocate. any person who thinks anything goes as folk, as long as it is acoustic.and done in a folky style[whatever that is]is imo misguided.
any singer makes judgements on what he is about to sing on two things whether he likes the words or the tune or both, that is a repertoire judgement not a stylistic judgement.
they then subsequently decide to sing the song in a certain way that is a stylistic judgement.
so based on this argument to put style as more important than repertoire is a nonsense
when peter pears or cliff richard
sings water is wide it does not cease to become a folk song, you may not like the style but it is still a folk song, same tune same words,

when leadbelly sang a blues version of prickly bush eg [gallus pole] ,it was still a folk song, regardless of whether you like the style

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Aug 21 - 07:04 PM

Another subjective question for people to argue about. Don't bother complaining when people "rub you the wrong way."

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 21 - 02:20 AM

a stock of plays, dances, or items that a company or a performer knows or is prepared to perform.




    the whole body of items which are regularly performed.
    "the mainstream concert repertoire"
    a stock of skills or types of behaviour that a person habitually uses.
CHOICE OF REPERTOIRE IS SUBJECTIVE, but the question is not subjective. a folk song is a folk song regardless of style .

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 21 - 03:56 AM

I choose not to sing hugh of lincoln , generally considerd a folk song..the decision is not based on style but on its lyrics its repertoire,
Paradoxically   consider the shortest story by Harry Chapin. a recently composed song not generally considerd a folk song stylistically when harry performed it, i do not like the way harry chapin perfoms it. but it is a powerfully written song.
when i heard Richard Grainger sing it in a folky style. i realised how good it was, so perhaps style is not more important than repertoire or repertoire is not more important than style, PERHAPS THEY ARE EQUALLY IMPORTANT. The shortestStory
I am born today
The Sun burns a promise
In my eye
Mama strikes me
And I draw a breath and cry
Above me a cloud
Slowly tumbles through the sky
I am glad, to be alive
It is my seventh day
I taste the hunger
And I cry
My Brother and sister
Cling to Mama's side
She squeezes her breast
But it has nothing to provide
Someone weeps, I fall asleep
It is twenty days today
Mama does not hold me
Anymore
I open my mouth
But I am to weak to cry
Above me a bird slowly crawls across the sky
Why is there nothing left to do but die

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 04 Aug 21 - 06:10 AM

Primarily I wouldn't sing anything that doesn't feel right. I wouldn't sing Hugh of Lincoln either, nor Long Lankin which I have done.
'Feeling right' is hard to define. Maybe is part repertoire, part style.
Many songs I sang before 'the troubles' I wouldn't now, but still some Irish songs (eg Colm O'Lochlain book)

I've recently sung (probably Brian Peters collation) of Kemp Owyne. My Book of Ballads has this as Kempion and every verse has an essential glossary. No use singing a song which needs a glossary. The audience won't listen.   

If Folk Clubs ever exist again style and repertoire are both important but also what the audience can be bothered to listen too. Maybe audiences want too easy a listen? I'm trying to decide whether this is a good time to knock singing in the head.

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 21 - 06:32 AM

Let us also not forget the difference between "folksinger" and "folksong singer".

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 21 - 09:04 AM

A good 'folk' singer can take most any banal 'pop' song,
and without changing any words,
imbue it with emotional meaning and significance
way beyond it's original creation, intent, and recording...

If enough folk relate to that new stripped down folkified rendition,
the song can enter the repertoire..

Either as a passing fad, or for many years into the future...


.. it's the way you tell 'em...


Unfortunately, too many folkies can appropriate a pop song
and make it sound even shitter.

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 21 - 09:32 AM

jhw you are a good singer you should not give up

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 06:24 AM

Thanks much for that commendation. Another tale to finish on.
Johnny Silvo sang at the Dolphin, Robin Hoods Bay FC. As usual the room was part Folkies and part Diners who didn't realise they had let themselves in for a Folk Club night. Johnny Silvo sang standards, songs that they'd know but realising he had real Folkies there would do several arch folk songs in a row too. At the end of the evening I'd say the whole roomfull gathered to buy Johnny Silvo merchandise. I don't think I've ever seen that in many FCs.
Style and repertoire.

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 06:32 AM

Here’s a song from a singer whose style I don’t admire, but whose repertoire I certainly do. And it’s Brigg Fair day this very day - reckon I might have a run over there…

‘Brigg Fair’ sung by Joseph Taylor.

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 11:55 AM

exactly back woodsman , it is irrelvant whether you or i like the style of the singer i do not like PEARS or worse still cliff s arrangement of   the water is wide, but it is still a folk song.and would be considerd so by most people, likewise brigg fair
there are some old songs that are defintely folk songs,there is a general consensus, it is not just my opinion
i acknowledge that with more modern songs, in which it is debatable but that is hardly relevant.

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 21 - 01:50 AM

Once musicians decide to restrict THEIR REPRRTOIRE as Rod Stradling did with his No Reels BAND. Repertoire becomes the issue, Reels are played differntly in Scotland and differnt parts of ireland, sometimew swung, sometimes straight, sometimes at medium dancing speed sometimes too fast, but that is a style issue, a blanket ban is a repertoire statement

"My old pal Rod Stradling & his Old Swan Band went away from the ubiquitous Irish music of the time, in a more restricted direction, hence the LP & in my opinion Rod could take personal credit (or otherwise) for inventing the english music style to be heard at most English festivals for nearly 50 years."
quote, jim bainbridge

My recollection of that time was that Flowers and Frolics were just as much a part OF REVIVNG [not inventing] SOUTHERN ENGLISH MUSIC, . Yes it was a restrictive direction.
Northumbrian English Music was also being popularised at that time through the acclaimed group, The High Level Ranters.and virtuoso concertinist Alistair Anderson
as well as Irish music, there was northumbrian music and Scottish music being championed by My old pal Rod Stradling & his Old Swan Band went away from the ubiquitous Irish music of the time, in a more restricted direction, hence the LP & in my opinion Rod could take personal credit (or otherwise) for inventing the english music style to be heard at most English festivals for nearly 50 years.
quote, jim bainbridge
My recollection of that time was that Flowers and Frolics were just as much a part OF REVIVNG [not inventing] SOUTHERN ENGLISH MUSIC, . Yes it was a restrictive direction.
Northumbrian English Music was also being popularised at that time through the acclaimed group, The High Level Ranters.and virtuoso concertinist Alistair Anderson
as well as Irish music, there was northumbrian music and Scottish music being championed by Silly Wizard and The Battlefield Band
Silly Wizard was a Scottish folk band that began forming in Edinburgh in 1970
Battlefield Band were a Scottish traditional music group. Founded in Glasgow in 1969.
The High Level Ranters are a Northumbian traditional musical group founded in 1964, best known for being one of the first bands in the revival of the Northumbrian smallpipes.
Silly Wizard was a Scottish folk band that began forming in Edinburgh in 1970


so a more accurate picture of Dance side of the uk folk revival in 1976 includes the above mentioned groups and Flowers and Frolics their subsequent influences

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 21 - 03:22 AM

sorry, typo in the middle it should read.
Once musicians decide to restrict THEIR REPRRTOIRE as Rod Stradling did with his No Reels BAND. Repertoire becomes the issue, Reels are played differntly in Scotland and differnt parts of ireland, sometimew swung, sometimes straight, sometimes at medium dancing speed sometimes too fast, but that is a style issue, a blanket ban is a repertoire statement

"My old pal Rod Stradling & his Old Swan Band went away from the ubiquitous Irish music of the time, in a more restricted direction, hence the LP & in my opinion Rod could take personal credit (or otherwise) for inventing the english music style to be heard at most English festivals for nearly 50 years."
quote, jim bainbridge

My recollection of that time was that Flowers and Frolics were just as much a part OF REVIVNG [not inventing] SOUTHERN ENGLISH MUSIC, . Yes it was a restrictive direction.
Northumbrian English Music was also being popularised at that time through the acclaimed group, The High Level Ranters.and virtuoso concertinist Alistair Anderson

as well as Irish music, there was northumbrian music and Scottish music being championed by Silly Wizard and The Battlefield Band

Silly Wizard was a Scottish folk band that began forming in Edinburgh in 1970

Battlefield Band were a Scottish traditional music group. Founded in Glasgow in 1969.
The High Level Ranters are a Northumbian traditional musical group founded in 1964, best known for being one of the first bands in the revival of the Northumbrian smallpipes.
Silly Wizard was a Scottish folk band that began forming in Edinburgh in 1970


So a more accurate picture of Dance side of the uk folk revival in 1976 includes the above mentioned groups and Flowers and Frolics AND their subsequent influences

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 21 - 03:29 AM

Wales[ part of the uk] had an impact too
Ar Log (Welsh for "for hire") are a Welsh folk band. They have performed since the 1970s and are recognized as the first professional Welsh folk band. They perform instrumental music and songs in Welsh.

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: GUEST,billy thompson
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 07:53 AM

but if you tell the average crowd of punters there will be a folk night at the pub, they will mostly stay away, sadly.

   Dick Hogan's songs are composed, music-hall style but highly entertaining- a good example of how repertoire tops 'style in the world outside folkalthough Hogan has both, and unselfconsciously in the Irish tradition

Subject: RE: style not repertoire
From: GUEST,billy thompson
Date: 20 Sep 23 - 07:53 AM

but if you tell the average crowd of punters there will be a folk night at the pub, they will mostly stay away, sadly.

   Dick Hogan's songs are composed, music-hall style but highly entertaining- a good example of how repertoire tops 'style in the world outside folkalthough Hogan has both, and unselfconsciously in the Irish tradition