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Where's Fennario?

DigiTrad:
BONNIE LASS OF FENARIO
Notes for Bonnie Lass of Fyvio/Peggy of Darby/Dandy


Related threads:
(origins) Origin: Fyvio / Fenario / The Bonnie Lass of Fyvie (20)
Lyr Req: Songs about Beeching's Cuts (23)
Lyr Req: The Journey tae Fyvie (Bill Smith) (11)
Pretty Peggy-O (definitive recording) (8)
(origins) Origins: Fanario (?) (3)
happy? - Oct 29 (Fyvie) (4)
as we march down to fenario (21) (closed)
Lyr Req: Peggy-O & Rosalie McFall (Grateful Dead) (2) (closed)


tah@cts.com 13 Jan 00 - 06:49 PM
Sunley 13 Jan 00 - 07:07 PM
Susan of DT 13 Jan 00 - 08:44 PM
Bob Bolton 13 Jan 00 - 09:28 PM
Bruce O. 13 Jan 00 - 09:30 PM
sheila 13 Jan 00 - 10:11 PM
Bruce O. 13 Jan 00 - 10:19 PM
Bruce O. 13 Jan 00 - 10:30 PM
13 Jan 00 - 10:37 PM
tradsteve 14 Jan 00 - 01:16 AM
Terry 14 Jan 00 - 12:21 PM
Bruce O. 14 Jan 00 - 01:01 PM
kendall 14 Jan 00 - 04:38 PM
Martin _Ryan 14 Jan 00 - 05:33 PM
Bruce O. 14 Jan 00 - 05:51 PM
GUEST,B Dunayski 28 Apr 03 - 01:51 AM
Mudlark 28 Apr 03 - 02:02 AM
Hrothgar 28 Apr 03 - 04:01 AM
Snuffy 28 Apr 03 - 09:10 AM
Bob Bolton 28 Apr 03 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,Moleskin Joe 28 Apr 03 - 09:46 AM
Scabby Douglas 28 Apr 03 - 09:47 AM
Dave Bryant 28 Apr 03 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 29 Apr 03 - 06:16 AM
John MacKenzie 29 Apr 03 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,leeneia 29 Apr 03 - 03:38 PM
Suffet 29 Apr 03 - 09:47 PM
John MacKenzie 30 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM
Joe Offer 30 Apr 03 - 11:36 PM
open mike 01 May 03 - 02:50 AM
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Richard Bridge 21 Jun 04 - 03:10 PM
dick greenhaus 21 Jun 04 - 03:15 PM
Malcolm Douglas 21 Jun 04 - 04:40 PM
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Richard Bridge 22 Jun 04 - 03:17 AM
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greg stephens 22 Jun 04 - 05:15 AM
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Subject: Where's Fennario?
From: tah@cts.com
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 06:49 PM

I've recently heard for the first time the traditional ballad "Fennario", sung by Anthea Lawrence on the MP3.com celtic site. Is Fennario a true place name? I know it's been used in lyrics, such as the Grateful Dead's "Dire Wolf", in addition to the traditional ballad. I would appreciate any help, also the origin of the traditional song.

Terry


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Sunley
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 07:07 PM

On the album "Joan Baez In Concert Part Two" there is a track called Fennario. Sounds Mexican of southern USA doesn't it ?


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 08:44 PM

In other versions, it is Fyvio, presumably Fife in Scotland


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 09:28 PM

G'day all,

This is really out of my core area, but I seem to remember hearing that the Fennario version of Maid of Fife arose from American troops, familiar with the older song, adapting it to their circumstances during one of the American / Mexican stoushes.

Whether there s an actual Fennario, or whether this is a corruption of the actual name of some Mexican town, depends on the accuracy of the avaerage soldier's appreciation of invaded territory. Of course, it could be a part of California or Texas, now renamed by the victors.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 09:30 PM

See the version from 'Pretty Peggy and Other Ballads', 1880, at "Pretty Peggy of Derby, O" on my website in Scarce Songs 1. That's the original of the Fennario version. www.erols.com/olsonw
http://www.mudcat.org/olson/viewpage.cfm?theurl=SONGTXT1.html


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: sheila
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 10:11 PM

Susan -

No, not Fife. There actually is a town called Fyvie, in Aberdeenshire. The Kingdom of Fife is south of there.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 10:19 PM

But "Pretty Peggy of Derby, O" was somewhat earlier than "The Bonnie Lass of Fyvie, O".


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 10:30 PM

I should also point out the the American version, probably by Rosinna Emmet, wasn't derived from the Scots version, but from a broadside copy of "Pretty Peggy of Derby, O". She didn't seem to know the old tune, so her version was supplied with a new one. More particularly, the "Fennario' version is only in Sharp and Karpeles' 'English Folk Songs from the Southerrn Appalachians', A version, and the tune there is slightly altered from that in the book of 1880. And the Irish (and Scots) tune "Pretty Peggy of Derby, O" has not been collected with any American version of the song.

The American version can be distinguished by that very lame line 'The Captain fell in love with a lady like a dove', and in another verse wherre Peggy is offered a ride in a buggy, carriage or the like, which is not in British Isles versions.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From:
Date: 13 Jan 00 - 10:37 PM

Of course, Bob Dylan, on his eponymously named first album, sings "Pretty Peggy-O," and in a spoken intro says (approximately). "I've wandered this whole world, but I've never found Fennario."


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: tradsteve
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 01:16 AM

Fenario is presumably in Scotland because "Pretty Peggy-O" is a traditional Scottish ballad. Dylan "Americanized" it extremely. The Dylan intro is: "I've traveled 'round this whole COUNTRY and I've never yet found Fenario". This is because Fenario was or is in Scotland.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Terry
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 12:21 PM

Thanks to all who replied to this thread. So...Dylan already recorded it, under the "Pretty Peggy-O" name. Didn't know that. I reckon his great-Dylan-ness has his stamp on lots of great traditional songs. At least he didn't claim this one as his own...did he?

Terry


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 01:01 PM

Sorry, that should have been Rosina Emmet above. I have the American edition of the book, 1880, but there was also an English edition the same year. It was a Mrs. Combs of Knott County, Kentucky that came up with the imaginary "Fernario" in 1908.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 04:38 PM

didnt he say the same thing about Pretoria? wasn't too good with geography was he?


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 05:33 PM

Bob

What's a "stoush" please - if not a typo?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Jan 00 - 05:51 PM

PS: I have no idea who changed 'Fernario' to 'Fennario'.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,B Dunayski
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:51 AM

I live in Fife, Washington (which is somewhere down in the United States). I've been all through Fife and I've never yet found Fenario anywhere around here either. by-


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Mudlark
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:02 AM

I learned this song from an early Judy Collins record...and always loved the gusto with which she sang it, compared to the limp J. Baez version...after all the penultimate verse as I heard it was "And when I return, the city I will burn, and ravish all the ladies in the country-o." Though I don't know where Fennario is, from the sound of the song I'm sure it didn't originate in the Americas.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 04:01 AM

A stoush is a blue.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Snuffy
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:10 AM

A blue what?


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:40 AM

Errr .. G'day Martin Ryan,

A 'stoush' is Australian for a fight, a brawl, a battle (or, as Hrothgar would have it, a 'blue'). (Hmmm ... that ought to be in the Mudcat Australian Glossary, on which I collaborated ... ? ... ! ... ?)

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Moleskin Joe
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:46 AM

In Scotland it's a stushie.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:47 AM

Stushie - is Scots for an uproar, fight, disagreement, great big fuss..
Also related to rammy..


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 09:48 AM

I think it was a misprint - ask Monica Lewinsky.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 06:16 AM

Bob
Thank you!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 11:20 AM

First left after Finaiglin


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:38 PM

Whenever you need a word to rhyme with are-o and Mary-o, (the captain fell in love with her after ditching Peggy-o) you going to get a Fenario. Rhymes are a lot of work.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Suffet
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 09:47 PM

More variants:

The captain had a talk with a lady like a hawk...

The captain got a smidgen of a lady like a pigeon...

The captain went a-bobbin' with a lady like a robin...

The captain got a pinch from a lady like a finch...


Any others?

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM

Duck??


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Subject: ADD Versions: Pretty Peggy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 11:36 PM

This song was recorded by Dylan and by the Grateful Dead. I've never heard either of thos recordings. I learned it from Simon & Garfunkel's Wednesday Morning 3 AM album, the only traditional recordings they did.

Dylan:

Pretty Peggy-O
Arranged by Bob Dylan
Played by Bob Dylan on Bob Dylan (1962) and occasionally during the Never Ending tour (21 performances in 1992, last performance 1998)
Tabbed by Eyolf Østrem



One verse intro (w/harp)

I've been around this whole country
But I never yet found Fennario.

         G
Well, as we marched down, as we marched down
                              D
Well, as we marched down to Fennerio'
          G                           C
Well, our captain fell in love with a lady like a dove
    D                            G
the name that she had was Pretty Peggy-O

Well, what will your mother say, what will your mother say
What will your mother say, Pretty Peggy-O
What will your mother say to know you're going away
You're never, never, never coming back-io ?

Come a-running down your stairs
Come a-running down your stairs
Come a-running down your stairs, Pretty Peggy-O
Come a-running down your stairs
Combing back your yellow hair
You're the prettiest darned girl I ever seen-io.

The lieutenant he has gone
The lieutenant he has gone
The lieutenant he has gone, Pretty Peggy-O
The lieutenant he has gone, long gone
He's a-riding down in Texas with the rodeo.

Well, our captain he is dead, our captain he is dead
Our captain he is dead, Pretty Peggy-O
Well, our captain he is dead, died for a maid
He's buried somewhere in Louisiana-O.



Live version (Albany, NY April 18 1998)

D             G                  D
As we marched out, to Fennario
   D          Bm          F#m
As we marched out, to Fennario
          G               D                      G
Well, our captain fell in love with a lady like a dove
                                 D
And he called her by name Pretty Peggy-O

Would you marry me, Pretty Peggy-O
Would you marry me, Pretty Peggy-O
Would you marry me, your cities I will free,
Free all the ladies in the are-o.

I would marry you, sweet William-o.
I would marry you, sweet William-o.
I would marry you, but your guineas are too few.
I'm afraid my mama would be so angry-o.

What would your mama think, Pretty Peggy-O
What would your mama think, Pretty Peggy-O
what would your mama think if she could hear my guineas clink
See me marching out ahead of my soldiers-o?

If ever I return, Pretty Peggy-O
If ever I return, Pretty Peggy-O
If ever I return, your cities I will burn
Destroy all the ladies in the area-o

Come tripping down the stairs, Pretty Peggy-O
Come tripping down the stairs, Pretty Peggy-O
Come tripping down the stairs, come and make your yellow hair
Bid your last farewell to sweet William-O.

The captain he is dead, Pretty Peggy-O
The captain he is dead, Pretty Peggy-O
The captain he is dead, and he died for a maid
He's buried in Lousiana Country-O

As we marched out, to Fennario
As we marched out, to Fennario
the captain fell in love with a lady like a dove
And he called her by name Pretty Peggy-O



Dead:

Peggy-O
Lyrics: Traditional
Music: Traditional

A traditional ballad played regularly by Jerry Garcia with the Grateful Dead from the early '70s.

As we rode out to Fennario
As we rode out to Fennario
Our captain fell in love with a lady like a dove
And he called her by name pretty Peggy-O

Will you marry me, pretty Peggy-O
Will you marry me, pretty Peggy-O
If you will marry me, I will set your cities free
And free all the ladies in the area-O

I would marry you, sweet William-O
I would marry you, sweet William-O
I would marry you, but your guineas are too few
And I feel my mother would be angry-O

What would your mother think, pretty Peggy-O
What would your mother think, pretty Peggy-O
What would your mother think when she hears the guineas clink
And saw me marching at the head of my soldiers-O

If ever I return, pretty Peggy-O
If ever I return, pretty Peggy-O
If ever I return, all your cities I will burn
Destroy all the ladies in the area-O

Come stepping down the stairs, pretty Peggy-O
Come stepping down the stairs, pretty Peggy-O
Come stepping down the stairs, combing back your yellow hair
And bid a last farewell to young Willie-O

Sweet William he is dead, pretty Peggy-O
Sweet William he is dead, pretty Peggy-O
Sweet William he is dead, and he died for a maid
And buried in the Louisiana country-O

Grateful Dead Recordings

      Date   Album
      25 Sep 1976   Dick's Picks Vol 20
      3 Sep 1977   Dick's Picks Vol 15
      10 May 1978   Dick's Picks Vol 25
      15 May 1980   Go To Nassau



Roots
The following piece is from Josephine McQuail's excellent piece "Folk Songs and Allusions to Folk Songs in the Repertoire of the Grateful Dead"


"As I researched the song, I discovered it was listed in a venerable volume of collected folklore, English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians, collected by Cecil J. Sharp. The song seems to be Scottish in origin. The version performed by the Grateful Dead resembles that transcribed in Cecil Sharp's book, but there are several variants. As is typical of folksongs, the place name given in the Dead version as "Fennario" is "Fernario" in Sharp's version. As the song is passed down from person to person words become changed or transposed, just as the message in the children's game of telephone gets more and more garbled as it is passed along. Sometimes nonsense syllables are substituted for what once were "real" words.

"An even older, Scottish version of the ballad called "The Bonnie Lass O'Fyvie" appears in Folk-Songs of the North-East and another version is given under the title Bonnie Barbara, O, in Vagabond Songs and Ballads of Scotland. From even the titles of the songs it is apparent that the names "Fennario" and "Fernario" both probably originally derived from "O'Fyvie" and the name "Peggy-O" perhaps from "Barbara, O." All of the versions considered together suggest the story of a love affair between a travelling enemy soldier and a local girl which is thwarted by the girl's ambitious mother who wants a son-in-law with more money and a higher social status. Thus his declarations go from a promise of love for "Barbara, O" to threats against the locals' lives when he returns from his next march. But he dies, heartbroken because of love for, respectively, "Peggy-O" and "Barbara O." "Bonnie Barbara, O" is given the setting of Derby and is in dialect, but the story of the song is a bit clearer. When the soldier asks Barbara what her mother would think of her daughter's marriage to an apparently well-to-do soldier, she replies:

Little would my mammie think, bonnie Sandy, O,
Little would my mammie think, bonnie Sandy O;
Little would my mammie think though she heard the guineas clink.
If her daughter was following a sodger, O."

"A Scottish version which found its way to the Southern United States is given in The Ballad of America. This version lacks the detail of the proud, angry mother. The setting of this version, "The Bonnie Lass o'Fyvie," in other Southern American versions changes from "Fyvie" to local settings or is replaced by nonsense words like "Ivory" or "Ireo."

There was a troop of Irish dragoons
Came marching down through Fyvie O;
The Captain's fallen in love with a bonnie, bonnie lass,
Her name it is called pretty Peggy O.

"O come down the stairs, pretty Peggy O," he said,
"O come down the stairs pretty Peggy, O,
O come down the stairs, comb aside your yellow hair,
Take the last farewell of your daddy, O.

Another version I found of "The Bonnie Lass Of Fyvie" has fuller lyrics:
There once was a troop of Irish dragoons
Come marching down thru Fyvie-O
And the captain fell in love wi' a very bonnie lass
And he called her by name, pretty Peggy-O

There's many a bonnie lass in the glen of Auchterlass
There's many a bonnie lass in Gairioch-O
There's many a bonnie Jean in the streets of Aberdeen
But the flower of them all lives in Fyvie-O

Come trippin' down the stair, Pretty Peggy, my dear
Come down the stairs, Pretty Peggy-O
Come trippin' down the stairs, combin' back your yellow hair
Bid a long farewell to your mammy-O

It's braw, aye it's braw, a captain's lady for to be
And it's braw to be a captain's lady-O
It's braw to ride around and to follow the camp
And to ride when your captain he is ready-O

Oh I'll give you ribbons, love, and I'll give you rings
I'll give you a necklace of amber-O
I'll give you a silken petticoat with flounces to the knee
If you'll convey me doon to your chamber-O

What would your mother think if she heard the guineas clink
And saw the haut-boys marching all before you-O
O little would she think gin she heard the guineas clink
If I followed a soldier laddie-O

I never did intend a soldier's lady for to be
A soldier shall never enjoy me-O
I never did intend to gae tae a foreign land
And I will never marry a soldier-O

I'll drink nae more o your claret wine
I'll drink nae more o your glasses-O
Tomorrow is the day when we maun ride away
So farewell tae your Fyvie lasses-O

The colonel he cried, mount, boys, mount, boys, mount
The captain, he cried, tarry-O
O tarry yet a while, just another day or twa
Til I see if the bonnie lass will marry-O

Twas in the early morning, when we marched awa
And oh but the captain he was sorry-O
The drums they did beat on the merry braes o' Gight
And the band played the bonnie lass of Fyvie-O

Long ere we came to the glen of Auchterlass
We had our captain to carry-O
And long ere we won into the streets of Aberdeen
We had our captain to bury-O

Green grow the birks on bonnie Ethanside
And low lie the lowlands of Fyvie-O
The captain's name was Ned and he died for a maid
He died for the bonny lass of Fyvie-O






S&G:

Peggy-O
(Traditional)

As we marched down to Faneri-o, as we marched down to Faneri-o,
our captain fell in love with a lady like a dove and they called her name pretty Peggy-o.

Come a-running down the stairs, pretty Peggy-o,
come a-running down the stairs, pretty Peggy-o,
come a-running down the stairs, combing back your yellow hair,
you're the prettiest little girl I've ever seen-o.

In a carriage you will ride, pretty Peggy-o, in a carriage you will ride, pretty Peggy-o,
in a carriage you will ride, with your true love by your side as fair as any maiden in the are-o.

What will your mother say, pretty Peggy-o? What will your mother say, pretty Peggy-o?
What will your mother say, when she finds you've gone away
to places far and strange, to Faneri-o?

If ever I return, pretty Peggy-o, if ever I return, pretty Peggy-o,
if ever I return, all your cities I will burn,
destroying all the ladies in the are-o, destroying all the ladies in the are-o.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: open mike
Date: 01 May 03 - 02:50 AM

there used to be a folk music related web site called fennario.
http://www.balladtree.com/


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:08 AM

Without looking at a map of Fyvie/ Aberdeen area, some of the place names posted above are wrong. Certainly I've always heard 'Long before we came to Old Meldrum town' which does fit since it lies between Fyvie and Aberdeen on the old military road. And the river is the Ythan so it's 'bonny Ythan side'
Tarry yet a while,
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Melani
Date: 02 May 03 - 01:15 AM

I always thought it was a county in Folkloreland.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Gavin
Date: 02 May 03 - 04:01 PM

Where's Fennario?

God knows? I haven't a clue - but all the places in the version I know fit well in the the history and geography of Aberdeenshire, and the river systems of the Ythan and the Don. The Ythan meets the sea not 10 miles north of Aberdeen, and the Don flows through the city.

The River Ythan flows through - Auchterless; Fyvie; and past Gight (the Castle of Gight beside the Ythan River, east of Fyvie towards Methlick; built around 1560 by members of the Gordon family and plagued throughout its history by murder, hardship, and unexpected deaths) ---- all in Aberdeenshire (now Grampian Region).

Old Meldrum lies to the south of Fyvie - but still drains into the Ythan river system.

The Garioch (pronounced Geeree, and transliterated in various ways) - the area around Inverurie and Bennachie - draining into the River Don (the neighbouring river system south of the Ythan).

And Aberdeen lies at the mouth of the River Don (yes, there are several more around the globe, but that just shows there are two Aberdeen lads - one stays, and one gets the h..l out, the farther away the better! And once gone, the more ferocious the Aberdeen loon becomes.)

The tune I believe refers to the Battle of Fyvie in 1644, where Royalists commanded by the Marquis of Montrose won against considerable odds. The Marquiss of Montrose then made the mistake of being captured and executed not much later! Win the battle and lose the war?   

http://www.scotwars.com/Individuals/ montrose/background_and_overview.htm

All best - Gavin (yes, another expat Aberdonian).


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 03 - 06:58 PM

Thanks Gavin, I did not know what the Geeree was. I would not have guessed Garrioch!
It's a favourite song of mine. I intend to walk or cycle from Fyvie throgh Old Meldrum to Aberdeen some time. I think that there is a folk club in Fyvie too.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 May 03 - 10:34 PM

Re: "All of the versions considered together suggest the story of a love affair between a travelling enemy soldier and a local girl which is thwarted by the girl's ambitious mother who wants a son-in-law with more money and a higher social status."

Somebody is being naive. The song is about an officer (Captain) who wants to seduce a girl of the lower classes and will probably dump her among the camp followers once he's lost interest. The girl is too smart for him.

Have you heard the line, "In coaches you shall ride, with your true love by your side, just as grand as any lady in the areo?" It shows that she is not a lady, she's a servant or farmer's daughter, something like that.

She's afraid to reject him in a straightforward way, so she calls on her mother's authority.

The captain doesn't really die of love in Louisiana, (pronounced Loo-zee-anna; he dies of one of the many diseases that swept military encampments. When you do the song, allow a musical interlude after the threatening verse so that the singer (the lower-ranked soldier) has time to figure this out. Then sing the first again, tenderly, as is he is remembering the captain and what a rascal he was.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 03 - 11:59 PM

leenia, the story is in the ballads. The original Irish version can be seen on the Bodleian Ballads website. The Scottish and American versions are independent reworkings. Drawings conclusions from combining the two is ridiculous, as is trying to figure out motivations of people who never really existed.


"Fennario" came from the imagination of a single singer long since dead. Trying to figure out how she came up with that can be no more than idle speculation. The opening of the original of the Americn version is given in facsilmile here. Original Pretty
Peggy, 1880


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 May 03 - 10:37 PM

I did not use a combined version. I used the words I've learned.

And as for figuring out the motivations of people who never existed, have you ever heard of intelligence guided by experience?


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 03 - 09:59 PM


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,jac/turriff, scotland
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 12:56 PM

fennario is not right, it is actually the bonnie lass o' fyvie'o...fyvie is a small village approximately 30miles north of aberdeen in north east scotland. the song is actually starts ....."there once was a troop o' irish dragoons, came marchin doon through fyvie'o..." it's about the irish dragoon captain falling in love with a local girl called peggy who comes from fyvie. you can get the lyrics on the corrs album.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM

jac/turriff, scotland:

That is the version I used to sing: "the captain fell in love with a lady like a dove, as we marched through the bonnie streets of fyvie'o."


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 03:55 PM

I have read from several sources that Fyvie (becoming Fyvie-O) is the older and presumably (judging by the other locations in the older versions) original place, but have heard speculation that "Fennario" or its variants might have been a localization to Fiunary, which would become "Fiunary-O" then simplified a bit. I believe, on the scant evidence of the scansion of "Farewell to Fiunary," that the accent is on the second syllable, "fiYOOnary," which might make this unlikely, but the soldier/sailor traditions did seem to change place names almost as readily as girl names, and to adjust the names to fit the songs (as in, "away, RYEo" and "off to Amerikay"). I don't have a map handy; is not Fiunary fairly far north? Is it a place where soldiers of the era of the song (or the next wave, to alter a familiar song) might be?


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 04:08 PM

It does look rather as if neither "jac" nor "brucie" actually read this old four-year-old thread before posting to it. Bruce Olson's comments earlier on make it clear that the American "fennario" variants derive from Pretty Peggy of Derby, not from the later "Fyvie-o" form. A derivation from Fiunary is certainly ingenious, but really very unlikely.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 02:18 PM

I am surprised that the Fyvie version is not in the DT.
Re version given above and further to my earlier post, I know it as the town rather than glen of Auchterless. This is lowland Scotland so perhaps glen is less likely. Also there is the village of Kirkton Of Auchterless just a couple of miles from Fyvie.
Correcting my earlier, the town is Oldmeldrum, not Old Meldrum.
With flounces to the knee,
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 03:10 PM

Guest proposes that the original version is the Irish version and is in the Bodleian Ballads collection. Is anyone smart to link us a graphic, or a typescript?


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 03:15 PM

Keith-
It is in the DT, and has been for many years. Interestingly (to me, at least) is the Scottish tune, which seems to have started out as "A Landlady of France" and was used for "The Chesapeake and the Shannon" as well as "The Constitition and the Gurriere" early in the eighteenth century.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 04:40 PM

That "guest" was the late Bruce Olson. His material on the song and its tune can be seen at:

http://users.erols.com/olsonw/SONGTXT1.HTM#PEGDRBY

Examples at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads (all, as it happens, printed in London) are listed in this link:

Pretty Peggy of Derby


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 06:15 PM

In the Scottish version I know, it's "Howe of Auchterless", not town or glen, which is I believe geographically accurate.
From all the stuff I've done on old fiddle tune books(published and manuscript), I have to say that the earliest versions of the tune I've come across were called "Pretty Peggy of Derby", no references to Fyvie or Fernario till much much later. But equally well, I would have to say that I've done more work on English fiddle notebooks than I have on Scottish. It is notoriously difficult(in fact normally impossible) to track down "original" versions of old songs. All you can do is come up with the earliest known version, and that only lasts as a theory till someone finds an earlier one.
   As is often the case, we have an anonymous GUEST on the thread claiming the original version is Irish. Well, that's as maybe, but he or she omitted to provide any references, so that red herring is best ignored for the moment. I see no reason why it shouldnt be Irish, and no reason why it should.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 03:17 AM

Thank you Malcolm.

Does anyone happen to know...

What is a "hautboy" and how is it pronounced?


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 04:39 AM

Thanks Dick. Ijust used the links at top of thread which do not lead to Fyvie.
I sang Chesapeake and Shannon while Kendal was visiting our session. I politely suggested that the Americans may only have lost due to friendly fire.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 05:15 AM

Hautboy is a transitional form between the original French hautbois and the modern English oboe. The French means "high wood". How they exactly pronounced it in 18th century England I dont know. Ho-boy maybe?? Or o-boy perhaps, the French haut is pronounced o.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 08:09 AM

With that information I'll bet the pronunciation is "Oh-boys"


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 09:12 AM

Finnagh, Co. Clare?

My first thought was Fenar-i-o, fanâr (arab.), lighthouse.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 09:42 AM

Here is the Italian version.
As I was driving my Ferrar-i-o,
The people cried "What a car-i-O"
Then I missed second gear
And trashed the thing I fear.
Now Ferrari don`t go very far-i-O.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Moleskin Joe
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 11:32 AM

Until I read this thread I assumed that Fennario was the result of someone mis-hearing or misunderstanding "through the Garioch-O" i.e. "through the Geeree-O".


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,satchel
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 09:36 AM

Has anyone considered the Louisiana element of the song? The final line has always struck me as a reference to the Acadian removal from NS to Louisiana by the British in the 18th c.   With this in mind, it's pretty easy to see the Scottish origins, via Nova Scotia to Louisiana.   No especially my area of experise, but...


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: fretless
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 09:28 AM

The location never seemed to bother us, but the closing couplet of the first verse often came out as:

The Captain fell in love with a lady like a dove,
She had feathers and the brains of a canary-o.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 10:25 AM

you can get the lyrics on the corrs album

Oh, well. Post no more. You cannot get a more authentic source than this.

:-(


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Deda
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 06:06 PM

Never having read this thread before I'm now compulsively thinking up rhymes --

The captain poked his toe at a lady like a crow

The captain had a row with a lady like a cow

The captain stole a pinch from a lady like a finch

The captain, by Apollo, loved a lady like a swallow

The captain lost his juice for a lady like a goose

He threw up on the lawn for a lady like a swan...


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 01:13 AM

In Barbara Hambly's latest Benjamin January mystery, "Day of the Dead", Pretty Peggy Oh is used as a signal by a Texan courting a Mexican girl.
If you haven't read Hambly's "January" series, they're wonderful. Start with "A Free Man of Color" the first one. You won't be able to put them down.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Deda
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 11:06 AM

" went insane, for a lady like a crane..."

" sang a tune, to a lady like a loon..."

(Hook around neck, yanked off stage right)


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 02:20 PM

the nearest I've come to fennario is Fenoderee which is the little folk of the Isle of Man, made me wonder if the name could refer to a myst isle one of those brig o doon places.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Brian R
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:15 PM

The original "American" version of Peggy-O, was popularized by Union troops during the civil war. Those that created it were members of the Irish Brigades mustered out of New York, which took part in the invasion of confederate New Orleans in 1862. From there they fought many costly small battles north along the Mississippi, burning southern plantations as they went. It is doubtless that is where the lyrics that refer the burining of the area, and "our captain is buried in the Lousianna country side" came from.

The ultimate genesis of the song is in Irish/Scottish folk music. "The Maid of Fyvio" with similar lyrics and harmony predated the US civil war by about 2 centuries.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Shula
Date: 21 Jul 04 - 10:17 AM

Dear Folks,

For what it's worth, There is a version of "Bonny Streets of Fyve-io" on the 1963 album, "Singin' Our Minds," repeated on "The Best of The Chad Mitchell Trio -- The Mercury Years," circa 1974. Fennario is mentioned in the song.

I wish I could decipher all the Scots words, so I could copy this out. If anyone has all the words to this version, I'd love to have them.

Hopefully,

Shula


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,evildoll
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:44 PM

fennario is in pennsyvania.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Shanty Filker
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 07:31 PM

Well, I know this is a little late, but:

Dick Greenhaus: surely you mean "used for "The Constitition and the Gurriere" as well as "The Chesapeake and the Shannon" early in the eighteenth century."

Lets not forget which was the original, and which was the spite-filled, happy-that-they-finally-won-a-frigate-duel-after-several-years-of-trying parody.

(I kid! I kid!) It is interesting, though, that "The Constitution and the Gurriere" is nearly lost here, but from what I can tell, "The Chesapeak and the Shannon" appears to be alive and well over the water. That's too bad, because they are both great songs.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: robinia
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 09:49 PM

At the Keith Festival (outside of Aberdeen) a few years back, I heard this turned into a political history of Britain via its transportation woes ("as we marched down," "as we rode down," "as we. . . ."    I do wish I'd taped the singer (an English minstrel, name of Hall, I think) because it was a very witty song, and I haven't heard it since. Has anyone else?


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: LadyJean
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 11:26 PM

Manly Wade Wellman used a song called "Vandy Vandy" in one of his Silver John stories. Does anyone know if it's a variant of "Pretty Peggy"?


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 04:55 PM

No idea


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 04:55 PM

69


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Max
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 06:09 PM

Interestingly enough, Fennario's is a coffee shop here in Mudcatville (West Chester, PA) that we call home base. I run the open sing there every Wednesday, and if we have a Mudcat gathering or concert, that's where it happens.

Dick Swain and Jake Michaels joined me in October for a gig there.

Also recording my first CD there as we speak.

Some good folks run the place, and let me do as I please. We should start simulcasting sometime this year on West Chester University Radio and mudcat.org.

How 'bout that.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 06:22 PM

Looking at Gavin's list of real local names, did anyone else think Fennario might be a fairly typical sassenach corruption of Bennachie, or is that too lateral a thought process?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Jan 05 - 09:08 PM

"Sassenach" doesn't come into it, and neither does Bennachie. See Bruce Olson's posts from 5 years back, when this old thread was new.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Strick
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 01:48 PM

It's funny this should come back to life so recently (or so periodically over time). Something reminded me of all the things I had downloaded from MP3 and since lost. I miss Anthea Lawrence's version of this song and some others very much. Does anyone know how to contact her? I was a fool not to purchase the CD when I had the chance and now my best efforts at googling some way to do so have failed.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Justin
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 08:44 PM

I've just found this thread trying to find the lyrics to "Fennario" which I heard for the first time on a recent re-issue of a 1971 album called "Daybreak" by Joe & Bing, on the UK label Rev-Ola
They give the song a Civil War context with the line:
"I would marry you, but you wear that coat of blue" rather than "your guineas are too few"
This fits in with Brian R's post from July '04 which I might as well quote in full here:

The original "American" version of Peggy-O, was popularized by Union troops during the civil war. Those that created it were members of the Irish Brigades mustered out of New York, which took part in the invasion of confederate New Orleans in 1862. From there they fought many costly small battles north along the Mississippi, burning southern plantations as they went. It is doubtless that is where the lyrics that refer the burining of the area, and "our captain is buried in the Lousianna country side" came from.

The ultimate genesis of the song is in Irish/Scottish folk music. "The Maid of Fyvio" with similar lyrics and harmony predated the US civil war by about 2 centuries.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Bing Bingham (Joe & Bing)
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 04:00 PM

In case anyone wonders, Joe and I have been singing and performing "Fennario" for 30 years. The version we always liked was recorded by the great 60s folk group, The Journeymen, on their first LP for Capitol. It is their arrangement, basically, we used when we recorded the song in 1971. It was done very simply -- two guitars and two voices -- with one harmony overdub at the very end. It's a wonderful, haunting melody... still very powerful.

Thanks for listening to our CD release on Rev Ola.   Bing Bingham


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Brenda Sutton
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 05:42 PM

And now Richard Shindell has a new song out on his most recent albmu "Vuelta" called Fenario that mentions soldiers and marching and a false king. I'm emailing him and asking what references he used to compose it.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Jan 05 - 08:40 PM

Guest evildoll asserts that Fennario is in Pennsylvania. Any truth to that?

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 19 Jan 05 - 12:20 AM

Yes, it is. As Max said above. It's not far away from my house... I was thinking about going down to the open mike, performing a couple tunes, and meeting the man.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 07:15 PM

First time I heard Peggy-O was Hoyt Axton's version in the early 60's. Has anyone a copy of his lyrics? Axton is generally true to original lyrics. If anyone out there hasn't heard his rendition, I suggest getting your hands on it. Powerful is an understatement.   
Haven't heard Dylan's version - I fell blessed.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,me
Date: 29 Jan 05 - 11:03 PM

must be from England area

guinea

SYLLABICATION: guin·ea
PRONUNCIATION:   gn
NOUN: 1. abbr. g. a. A gold coin issued in England from 1663 to 1813 and worth one pound and one shilling


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,jabrams@optonline.net
Date: 04 Mar 06 - 10:28 PM

Actually, I always wondered if Cpt Ned died from Malaria.

Green grow the birks on bonnie Ethanside
And low lie the lowlands of Fyvie-O
The captain's name was Ned and he died for a maid
He died for the bonny lass of Fyvie-O





Wasn't the area around Fyve known for it and only cleared much later?


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: hawkerlad
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 09:47 AM

Fyvie, as has already been mentioned is in Aberdeenshire, Scotland. This song dates back to the era of The Marqius of Montrose, at the time of the, "covenanters," and civil war between King Charles and Parliment.(Circa 1644) After his victories in Aberdeenshire, he was set to march on Aberdeen. He promised not to send his Irish troops, who were seen as savages by the locals, into Aberdeen, but found himsel having to go back on his word, and to cover this, mounted them and called them dragoons.

Can't say if Malaria was a problem in rural Aberdeenshire in the 17th century or not, but I doubt it since I saw my first mosquito last year at the age of 56. I've always though it was too cold here for the little bu**ers. Global warming?

Incidentally - in "our," local version, "lady like a dove," is nowhere to be seen.
The Captain's fa'in in love wi' a bonny, bonny lass,
And her name it is cried Pretty Peggy O.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 04:04 PM

As this thread gets longer and longer, I will just add a comment made much earlier: as far as I know the earliest known versions of this song locate young Peggy in Derby, England. Though the Scottish Fyvie version is certainy the most comprehensive geographically, with its Meldrum, Fyvie, Ythan side ,Braes of Gight and the Garioch.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 04:41 PM

Malaria was known as the ague, and was common in these islands.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Mar 06 - 04:47 PM

The trouble with long threads is that people will post to them without bothering to read them first. Just occasionally they will add new and useful information, but usually they just repeat what has already been said; and that will often, as in the case of "hawkerlad", who revived the thread this time round, mean repeating -as fact- romantic assertions for which there is not, so far as can be told, a shred of evidence. Then, in turn, others must repeat such accurate details as have already appeared, and so it continues in interminable and ever more confusing circles.

My link to the late Bruce Olson's material on the song, given above (some years ago) no longer works; since his death, it has been archived at the University of Fresno (and at Mudcat, but that is not always working). See instead

Pretty Peggy of Derby, O

for the most accurate information on the history and background that you are likely to find online; or, perhaps, anywhere else. Bruce was a considerable scholar, far exceeding anyone else represented in this old thread.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:51 PM

I was rummaging around the other night and found the Wikipedia section about this song, and it needs correction in that it seems to assert that the scottish version (Fyvio) is the earlier.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:56 PM

Richard Bridge: do you have any links/documentation on that claim? Derby is the earliest place I have found in connection with that song/tune, but I am willing to to learn more.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 01:45 PM

See my link to Bruce Olson's commentary a couple of posts (and nearly 3 years) ago for the best information available. Evidently the anonymous writer of the Wikipedia entry relied overmuch on misinformation posted in old Mudcat threads and outdated comment in books published a century ago rather than tackle the subject properly: the piece is a strange mixture of sensible analysis and utter nonsense.

As I've said many times before, Wikipedia is not in itself a reliable source of information and articles in it carry no particular authority. The same, of course, is true of the Mudcat (though not infrequently you'll find very good information available here, if you are able to distinguish it from the dross) - any web-based resource that allows anonymous or pseudonymous contributions and doesn't distinguish between those who know what they are talking about and those who don't will inevitably spread at least as much falsehood as truth.

Bruce was a considerable scholar, and the evidence he presents for an Irish origin of the tune seems indisputable; given the current state of knowledge, though, I'd suggest that the earliest surviving form of the words ('Pretty Peggy of Derby') can't yet be ascribed with equal certainty.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM

Malcolm says, "the piece is a strange mixture of sensible analysis and utter nonsense....Wikipedia is not in itself a reliable source of information and articles in it carry no particular authority."

Allow me to endorse his words unequivocally. Wikipedia can be very useful, but only as a firststep. Referring to it as a source of knowledge is basically like asking a question of somebody at a party and then taking the answer as Truth from Above.

You gotta check everything with a named reliable source. Named authors don't want to be wrong (though of course they can be), while anonymous posters have little reason to care.

Unfortunately the level of thought and scholarship regarding traditional music (individual pieces especially) has been so wildly uneven over the decades that the relevant Wikipedia articles are probably even less trustworthy than most. Well-meaning but poorly informed fans love to post speculation as fact. My guess is that Mudcat is far more reliable than Wikipedia because skeptics seem quicker to respond here than at the Wiki.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:38 PM

"Anyone" can edit Wikipedia articles ~ anyone, that is, who has bothred to apply and become a Wiki contributor.

Surely some MC member has taken that step ~ no? Is there a volunteer to patch up what they have currently posted about this song, and this imaginary locale? (Not me, thank you; I figure perhaps someone who cares more than I about these historical-accuracy issues might be interested.)

My favorite part of this old thread occurred back on 02 May 03 - 10:34 PM when leeneia offered her interpretation and described her arrangement. That made a lot of sense to me, and I remain in her corner through the ensuing argument. I think she's absolutely right about interpreting the motivations and actions of imaginary characters.

I also like the part about Fennario's being the name of Max's local coffeehouse.

Before I read this thread, I assumed that (for some reason that, upon examination, made no sense at all) Fennario was somewhere in the vicinity of Pretoria, which would place it in South Africa if I'm not mistaken...


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM

It is not necessary to become a Wiki contributor. I corrected a reference to the former public house the Rose and Crown in Stoke Road Allhallows only a few weeks go. The pub (a grade II listed building, now being convereted to a house) was established as a pub in 1432, but the entry stated it was Georgian. At one stage it had a tunnel to the church. It also housed the church altar table during the reformation to protect it from the King's men. The whole entry about Stoke has now been re-edited and my reference lost.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:33 PM

I'm fairly certain that Greg somewhere has provided the satnav directions to Fennario - go straight on through Scarlett Town, and then turn left at Bucklesfordbery. If you reach Ballyjamesduff the you've gone too far.

I'm surprised that since the late Bruce Olson posted all his information 9 years ago about the earliest versions of Pretty Peggy-O nobody has managed to check other copies of his source.

Bruce Olson cited copies in the Library of Congress and Harvard Library of the "chapbook type songster" The Winter's Amusement; and Jolly Toper's Companion which contains the song Pretty Peggy of Derby O. The copies are apparently imperfect, but the Harvard copy had the imprint '42, Long Lane' which he associated with the printers


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:54 PM

Sorry! I pressed 'Submit' before 'Preview' in earlier post.

I'm fairly certain that Greg somewhere has provided the satnav directions to Fennario - go straight on through Scarlett Town, and then turn left at Bucklesfordbery. If you reach Ballyjamesduff the you've gone too far.

I'm surprised that since the late Bruce Olson posted all his information 9 years ago about the earliest versions of Pretty Peggy-O nobody has managed to check other copies of his source.

Bruce Olson in his Scarce Songs cited copies in the Library of Congress and Harvard Library of the "chapbook type songster" The Winter's Amusement; and Jolly Toper's Companion which contains the song Pretty Peggy of Derby O. The copies are apparently imperfect, but the Harvard copy had the imprint '42, Long Lane' which he associated with the printers Howard and Evans, and J Evans about 1794.

According to the English Short Title Catalogue thare are copies of The Winter's Amusement; and Jolly Toper's Companion at the British Library and the Bodleian, as well as Illinois and Newberry. Apparently there is a clearer imprint "Printed and Sold by J Evans" with a provisional dating of 1795(?). If anyone is able to examine any of these copies it might give a more complete text than Bruce was able to provide for this earliest version of the song.

Matthew Edwards


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:44 PM

P. 11 of George Colman's "Songs, duetts, trios, &c. in the new comedy of Two to one. As performed at the Theatre-Royal, in the Hay-Market," 4th edition. (London, 1785), has an original song to the tune of "Peggy of Derby-O."

The melody is unfortunately not printed and the song (in the same meter as the one we're talking about) isn't very intresting. Nor does it mention anything like "Fennario."


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:50 PM

And who knew that David Fennario is a prominent Canadian playwright?

(His name was David Wipers but he changed it.)


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: paula t
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:33 PM

I love the Richard Shindell song. Extremely haunting. We watched him perform it live on his last tour here. Sarah turned to me halfway through with tears in her eyes and just whispered "Wow...."

Well worth more than one listen.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 06:42 PM

Lighter, thanks for the reminder. George Colman (the younger) 1762-1836 was the author of Jenny linkum feedle, Inkle and Yarico and The Quadrapeds of Quedlinburgh and many other successful dramas at his theatre in the Haymarket, London. According to the DNB; "While still at King's,[=King's College, Aberdeen] Colman completed his second play, Two to One, late in 1783. It reached the boards at the Little Haymarket on 21 June 1784 and achieved a respectable run of nineteen evenings."

This dates the tune of Peggy of Derby-O as being known in 1783 even if the words by Colman which Olson quotes under the title of The Dandy-O are not "one of his better efforts"!

Matthew Edwards


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:07 PM

Anon., "The Songster's Magazine: Being a Choice Collection of the Newest Songs, Sung at Ranelaugh and Vauxhall Gardens, the Theatres Royal, and All Other Places of Public Entertainment" (London: R. Coster, n.d., p. 7 [dated by the British Library "1785?"; all spellings and punctuation sic]:

Pretty Peggy of Derby

There was a regiment of Irish Dragoons,
They was all marching to Derby O,
The Captain fell in love with a young chambermaid,
And her name it was called Pretty Peggy O.

Oh! come down stairs Pretty Peggy O,
Oh! come down stairs Pretty Peggy O,
Oh! come down stairs and go back with yellow hair
Take the last farewell of your darling O.

I tell you now as I told you before,
And for what should you teaze me any more,
What will your mammy think, when she hears you are sick
And the hautboys a playing before you go,

A Soldier's wife I never will be,
And a Soldier shall never lie in bed with me,
For I will make him stond with his hat in hand
When he stands in presence of my company.

Then spoke his brother, a stout young man,
A valiant soldier as he were,
Saying, If she'll not go, we shall have sweethearts anew,
When we come to the Town of Killarny O.

When we come to the water that runs so clear,
That joins to the town of Killarney O.
The Captain sigh'd and said we are many miles away,
Here's a health to the pretty Girl of Derby O.

When they did come to the last town,
The town that they call Killarney O,
His name was Captain Wade and he died for a maid,
And he died for the pretty girl of Derby O.

(This text seems to me to be a little too clumsy and confused to be an accurate transcription of a song sung on the stage. Bruce Olson's text here

http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/Olson/SONGTXT1.HTM#PEGDRBY

may or may not be from a few years later. That text is very much the same as what I reproduce above, but a bit less confused in the middle.)


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 08:28 PM

Its late at night and I'm in between shifts at work so I apologise for returning yet again to this topic. However the English Short Title Catalogue (ESTC) and the COPAC catalogue have turned up a very intriguing result.

The virtuous maid of the inn; or the entertaining history of Margaret Saunders, commonly called pretty Peggy of Derby... is a chapbook in octavo with 32 pages published by B Talbot, London (1790?). It was also published in quarto for W Clements and J Sadler, London, 1790 and for the same W Clements and J Sadler in octavo in 1791 with the note on page 3 "Pretty Peggy of Derby O ... some account of her history, and the reason of acquiring the appellation of Pretty Peggy of Derby O".
Another, much later printing is by Alice Swindells, Manchester, c.1830.

The DNB has a record for Margaret Saunders, actress, (1686-1745). She was born in Dorset, Wiltshire and acted at the Haymarket and Drury Lane theatres in London between 1707 and 1720. What, if anything, she had to do with Pretty Peggy of Derby awaits discovery...

Matthew Edwards


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Subject: Lyr Add: PRETTY PEGGY OF DARBY-O
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 09:34 PM

Fascinating, Matthew. By chance, this website

http://www.outoftheordinarymusic.com/ott.html

offers the lyrics of a "Pretty Peggy of Darby O" whose first line is identical to that in the Bodleian (but unfortunately not in the online Bodleian Ballads collection). It comes from a Boston, Mass., broadside:

There was a Gay Captain in Darby Town,
And he was come a Recruiting O:
A Pretty Chambermaid his Heart soon betrayed,
And she was called sweet Peggy O.
      And she was called sweet Peggy O.

O come down the stairs with your golden Hair,
O come down to me said the Captain O;
For I to Killarney must now haste away
Then bid me farewell pretty Peggy O.
      Then bid me farewell pretty Peggy O.

The Damsel replied you need teize me no more;
You are not the man to my fancy O;
I will not be ty'd to be a soldier's bride,
So you may be gone now for Peggy O.
      So you may be gone now for Peggy O.

Never heed her disdain said his Brother so bold,
She is not worth your regarding O;
There'll be fair girls enow who their hearts will bestow,
When you come to the Town of Killarney O.
      When you come to the Town of Killarney O.

Then over the ocean they soon sail'd away,
And safe they arrived at Killarney O;
Yet tho' so far away he was often heard to say
Here's a Health to the Pretty girl of Darby O.
      Here's a Health to the Pretty girl of Darby O.

Sweet Peggy still ran in the Captains mind,
No other he thought was so charming O;
Love alone fill'd his breast that he never could rest,
And he died for the Pretty girl of Darby O.
      And he died for the Pretty girl of Darby O.

I almost forgot: the original song sheet ("c1782")evidently includes the tune! And there's a nice sound clip too!

All in all this text and tune must be at scarcely more than one remove from the original.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 10:31 PM

Nice find, Lighter. This site Early American Secular Music and Its European Sources, 1589–1839: An Index (EASMES) suggests that the 1782 source for that text and tune is Twenty Four Country Dances for the Year 1782 published in London by T. Skillern. There is a manuscript copy at the New England Historical Genealogical Society, Boston Mass., and an original under our noses all this time at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library at Cecil Sharp House!
T. Skillern published a series of Twenty Four Country Dances for the Year..., With proper Directions to each Dance for the years 1768 [Printed for T Straight and Skillern], 1787, 1788, 1791, 1796, and 1799 but the edition for 1782 isn't catalogued elsewhere.

Matthew Edwards


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 10:57 AM

I suppose one possible answer to the question "Where's Fennario/Fernario?" it could be that the name is a misremembering (or "folk processing") of "Killarney O" in the original. Not many Appalachian folks in the late 19th century would have been familar with "Killarney."

It would be interesting to compare the earliest "Fennario" versions
with the "Killarney" versions tosee just how similar they are. That might clinch the matter.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:06 PM

It's very interesting that these recent diggings (and I do very much appreciate the information) seem to point to a London origin, not an Irish one.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM

Nine years , this has been going on ! Just another example of the Folk Process ??


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM

100 !


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 12:43 PM

Cheating!


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 06:58 PM

Fennario is in Mexico. Apparently it was not well regarded by early European explorers as it's original name, Ario, was usually pronounced Eff'n Ario which simply became Fenario in later years.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 05:18 PM

Good grief! I read the whole thread, without finding the answer. But it was fun. Thanks to all the contributors!


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 06:33 PM

Here's how I sing it nowadays. It is my belief that a song should make sense and that rhythm and rhyme should be respected. That leaves out rhyming Derby with Killarney. It requires new names; Mary to rhyme with Fennari, and Danny, the closest I could think of to 'angry.' My version is based quite a bit on a song by the Battlefield Band.

As we march-ed down to Fennario
repeat
Captain fell in love
with a lady like a dove,
and the name she was called was lovely Mary-o.

Come go along with me, lovely Mary-o
[how can we resist singing "come go"?]
repeat
in coaches you shall ride
with your true love by your side
as grand as any lady in the are-o.

Come trippin down the stair lovely Mary-o
repeat
come trippin down the stair
combing back your yellow hair
and bid a fond farewell to your mother-o.

What would your mother think, lovely Mary-o
repeat
what would your mother think
for to hear the guineas clink
and the soldiers all a marchin a-fore you oh?   

How can I come down, Captain Danny-o?
repeat
how can I come down
when I'm locked here in my room
and a great deep well beneath my window?

[She let him down gently, aware that he kills people for a living.]

I love you most of all Captain Danny-o
repeat
I love you most of all
but your fortune is too small.
I'm afraid that my mother would be angry-o.

Our captain he is dead, lovely Mary-o
repeat
our captain he is dead,
and he died for a maid
and he's buried in the Lousiana country o.

If ever we return to Fennerio
repeat
If ever we return,
that city we shall we burn
and ravage all the ladies in the are-o.

[play a breakdown[

repeat first verse, gently.

============
This is a nice tune on my dulcimer.

There's a novel by Jane Austen where there are four daughters in the family, and two of them are far too bedazzled by the local soldiers. Is it Pride and Prejudice? Anyhow, reading it puts this song in a broader context.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 07:58 PM

Maybe it's near "Fiunary."


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Mike in Brunswick
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 10:49 PM

If you type "Fennario" into the Google Earth Search box, you get 16 hits, including 6 in West Chester, Pennsylvania and 4 in Montreal. Only two of the hits actually have "Fennario" in their titles - a restaurant in West Chester and an art gallery in Eugene, Oregon. It's not clear to me why the others come up.

You're most welcome.

Mike


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 12 - 01:22 PM

'Till Captain Neddy persished from Ma-lerry-O....


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Emerson Bigguns
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 09:13 AM

Fennario? Why, it's just up the main road a ways, you just head North-Northwest past the big lake, then you bear left at the fork where the rock juts out from the trees and follow it all the way through the holler - bam! You're there.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 06:07 PM

The OED confirms Greg Stephens's guess, long ago, that "hautboy" was pronounced "ho-boy". In fact, it was often spelled "hoboy". The Italians spelled it "oboe", and we took that form in & gave it an English spelling pronunciation that renders it unintelligible to Italians *and* to Frenchmen. Such are the ways of English.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,lou Judson
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 08:44 PM

RE:
Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Emerson Bigguns
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 09:13 AM

Fennario? Why, it's just up the main road a ways, you just head North-Northwest past the big lake, then you bear left at the fork where the rock juts out from the trees and follow it all the way through the holler - bam! You're there.

If this is typical of old country directions, the lake is now a shopping center, the rock was removed and now there's a hotel, and the holler is now a spa. Bam you're there but would never know!


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 28 Sep 17 - 09:06 PM

Only on Mudcat could the simple question, "Where's Fennario?" lead to well over 100 posts.

Anyway, back in July 2004, Shula noted that the Chad Mitchell Trio had recorded the song, and asked for the words to their version. In January 2014, Batty Kellen posted the Trio recording, with lyrics, to YouTube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43tmYYYeA1s. The Trio recording gives a cause for the captain's death not mentioned in any of the versions previously posted to this thread: the colonel orders the troops to ride on, the captain suggests staying another day, and the colonel, enraged, shoots him.

Where the Trio sourced this version, I cannot say.

Here are the lyrics as posted by Batty Kellen. Batty's transcription is true to the pronunciations in the recording, which may not accord with the accepted spelling of the place names involved. I have not attempted to make any corrections.

There once was a troop, of Irish Dragoons,
Come marching down through Fyve-io.
And the Captain fell in love, with a very bonny lass,
As we marched through the bonny streets of Fyve-io

The Captain's name was Ned, he was the pride of the Regiment,
The bonniest lad in all of the Army-o.
A very handsome sight, he was the ladies' own delight!
As we marched though the bonny streets of Fyve-io.

Well, I'll give you ribbons, love, and I'll give you rings,
I'll give you a necklace of amber-o,
If you'll come on down the stair, and comb back your yellow hair,
And we'll march through the bonny streets of Fyve-io.

There's many a bonny lass, in the town of Achterlass,
Aye, there's many a bonny lassie in the Geary-o,
There's many a bonny jean, in the streets of Aberdeen!
But the flow'r of them all lives in Fyve-io.

"Mount up!" the Colonel cried, "and it's o'er the bray we'll ride,
Down from the Hielans to Fenario."
"Well, it's tarry another day," we heard our Captain say,
As we marched through the bonny streets of Fyve-io.

The Colonel in his rage, drew his pistol and took aim,
At the bonniest lad in all of the army-o.
He fired a deadly ball, and our Captain, he did fall,
As we marched through the bonny streets of Fyve-io.

It was lang ere we left, the town of Achterlass,
We had our young Captain to carry-o.
And lang ere we came in to bonny Aberdeen,
That we had our young Captain there to bury-o.

There once was a troop, of Irish Dragoons,
Come marchin' down through Fyve-io,
And the Captain fell in love, with a very bonny lass,
As we marched through the bonny streets of Fyve-io.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:30 PM

I'm surprised that no-one commented at the time on one bit of Matthew Edwards's 12 Jan 09 - 08:28 PM post:
"The DNB has a record for Margaret Saunders, actress, (1686-1745). She was born in Dorset, Wiltshire ..."

What!? Born in two different counties? It doesn't seem to refer to being born once in the normal way and then "reborn" into religion.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:58 PM

I have some questions arising from this thread.

Are the "corrections" made by Bruce Olson really correct? If so, what makes them more correct than the "original readings"?

What is the evidence for Pretty Peggy of Derby being earlier than the Bonnie Lass of Fyvie?

Does it make sense that the unsuccessful courtship was in Derby but the troop of soldiers proceeded next to Killarney?


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Sep 17 - 06:11 PM

There's a lot to digest in Bruce's magisterial note to the song, but it looks as though the chapbook "Derby" version can be dated to the 1790s, but "Fyvie" not till 1828.

So "Derby" can be taken as the likely original, barring new discoveries, of course.

As for the "corrections," they look like Bruce's attempt to improve a faulty (or faultily remembered) song with better phrases from another version.

There's nothing wrong with that sort of editing so long as, like Bruce, you also indicate carefully what the original words were.

Otherwise the evidence is misrepresented and the "corrected" song will confuse people who want to see the original text, warts and all.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 30 Sep 17 - 05:53 AM

> There's a lot to digest in Bruce's magisterial note to the song, but it looks as though the chapbook "Derby" version can be dated to the 1790s, but "Fyvie" not till 1828.

> So "Derby" can be taken as the likely original, barring new discoveries, of course.

The extant dateable copies certainly make "Derby" earlier than "Fyvie", but I was wondering whether that's the only evidence that way. On the basis of the internal evidence of the story as told in the songs, the Fyvie version seems to me to make better sense, with not merely a single place name being changed as was common with many ballads, but a whole string of local place names instead of the abrupt move from Derby to Ireland. If the Fyvie version was derived from the Derby version (or some lost antecedent of both) whoever did that made a very good job of it.


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Subject: RE: Where's Fennario?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Oct 17 - 09:07 AM

Point well taken, Richard, but "internal evidence" of this kind is rarely conclusive.

Maybe a reviser really did do "a very good job of it."

How likely or unlikely is that? It's impossible to know. If somebody did, they did. If not, not.

Was there a "lost antecedent"? Also impossible to know from the texts alone.

So we're back where we started, with little to go on but the earliest publication date.


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