Afghanistan - then and now

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 21 - 12:03 PM

You don't 'get' irony then, Bonz?

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Sep 21 - 12:01 PM

Exactly!!!

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 21 - 10:45 AM

Bonzo reminds me of the Boy Scout marching with his Scout troop in the St. George’s Day parade, and whose admiring mum turns to her husband and proudly declares, “Oh look George, they’re all out of step except our little Bonzo!”. :-)

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Sep 21 - 09:55 AM

Matter of opinion

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Sep 21 - 08:55 AM

You did not criticise Biden in any sensible way, Bonzo.

I think Biden is wrong in what he is doing because x, y and z

Is not stupid.

USA's reputation in the world has never been lower than it is today, and ALL blame must fall on biden who is not fit for public office, not fit to be President of the USA, and not fit to be the leader of the free world.

Is stupid because it does nothing to back up your opinion; the USA's reputation in the world was far lower when Trump was in power; How can the blame fall on Biden for an agreement that Trump made with the Taliban and, finaly, the leader of the USA is not the leader of the free world. Now, I can only suggest that you do as previously suggested and only post when you are wearing your sensible hat.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Sep 21 - 07:57 AM

So I'm being stupid when I criticise biden - I despair!!

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Sep 21 - 08:10 PM

The value of translators in WWII by German born jews that were in the US army was that 60% of intelligence were supplied by them. They trained at camp Richie and were called the Richie boys. They did the interrogations and worked in virtually every battle, Nuremberg trial and became crucial in post war policy. Some of the Richie boys became famous in science or the arts like J.D.Salinger.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 21 - 06:30 AM

125 people whose job is was to guard the British embassy in Kabul were promised that we would get them out. The number who have made it here is...one.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 21 - 06:26 AM

Well I don't necessarily refrain from posting when I'm having a drink of an evening (the only time I drink), but on the couple of occasions down the years on Mudcat that I've been accused of posting under the influence (not quite the same thing as posting after a moderate glass or two) I was stone cold sober each time. Just sayin'...

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 21 - 01:33 AM

No problem, SRS - I thought it was probably something like that! ;-)

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 11:05 PM

Sorry about that, Backwoodsman - after deleting a couple of posts, Bonzo got himself put into timeout. Again. He needs to stop drinking while he's posting, to start with. He also needs to stop being so flagrantly stupid.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 06:10 PM

Bonz hits some humorous home runs but when you swing for the fences it sometimes looks like an unfunny hyperbolic foul ball.

The best comparison for the shameful Afghan evacuation is the shameful evacuation from Viet Nam.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 02:23 PM

I sincerely hope you’re right, SRS. It’s clearly not only the White Supremacy movement that’s alive and well in TX, Male Domination appears to be too. Shameless, shameful. I used to spend a little time each year working in Houston - I’ve been astonished at the appalling attitudes revealed on FB by some of my former colleagues there whom I’d always believed were decent, mature adults.

”USA's reputation in the world has never been lower than it is today, and ALL blame must fall on biden who is not fit for public office, not fit to be President of the USA, and not fit to be the leader of the free world.”

I think you’re confusing Biden with his predecessor there, Bonz. Trump, via his bum-boy Pompeo, made the withdrawal agreement with the Taliban, which guaranteed US withdrawal by the end of May - a date extended by three months under Biden. The withdrawal has undoubtedly been disastrous, but imagine the utter shambolic canine’s cojones it would have been under Trump and working to the dates set out in his treacherous agreement. If anyone was unfit as you say, it was Trump.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Thompson
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 02:13 PM

Lots about Afghanistan in Dervla Murphy's Full Tilt.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 01:04 PM

That was the definition of a blather fart.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 01:02 PM

USA's reputation in the world has never been lower than it is today, and ALL blame must fall on biden who is not fit for public office, not fit to be President of the USA, and not fit to be the leader of the free world.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 01:00 PM

There will be remedies to this absurd new legislation. Soon, one hopes. The legislators thought they were being clever by leaving the enforcement in the hands of religious zealots, but it will come back to shoot them in the ass. I suspect, for example, that every GOP member of state government will find their names added to the offenders list by "whistleblowers."

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 12:48 PM

"When does the airlift start for getting women and girls out of Texas?????????????????????????????????????"

Good question Bonz! I just saw a good one on FB - a photoshopped image of a highway sign which read 'Welcome To Texas!", with an image of June Osborne (Offred) beneath in full 'Handmaid' garb. ;-)

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 12:44 PM

That's good. Let's hope it turns out that way.

BTW, I'm unhappy, too, about the UK's miserable, mealy-mouthed attitude towards refugees. These unfortunates didn't ask to be invaded but, having done the dirty deed and invaded, I believe it's the responsibility of the US, the UK, and all the other 'allies' to take responsibility for those they have failed so disastrously.

And let's hope that the lesson has been learned - invading another country is the easy bit, having a viable, ethical, equitable Exit Strategy is what's difficult. Without it, invasion is not the answer to anything. And, in this instance, the invaders failed miserably.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 12:36 PM

When does the airlift start for getting women and girls out of Texas?????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 11:56 AM

Trump isn't in office with his toady Stephen Miller to keep things at a standstill, and despite COVID impacting immigration, there will be a lot of those Afghans coming here. They're arriving already. Canada is struggling to get a lot of the translators and local staff who helped them out. Many of the efforts are by individuals who will offer sponsorship, and we'll have to see how this shakes out by the end of the year.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 11:30 AM

The US doesn’t even rank in the top ten refugee-hosting countries, whereas Germany and Turkey - Europe’s largest hosting nations - both do. I’d suggest the US has not only the responsibility, but also the space, to take a good share of those its feckless, reckless abandonment has forced to flee Afghanistan?

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/refugees-asylum-seekers-and-migrants/global-refugee-crisis-statistics-and-facts/

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 10:52 AM

Afghanistan crisis: How Europe's relationship with Joe Biden turned sour

The words I don't see in this article are "refugee" or "immigrant" - and the possibility of lots of Afghanis fleeing to other nations. The US will be taking a lot (many coming to Texas) but I'm sure there will be grumbling in Europe.

Meanwhile, Afghan Women stage protest in Taliban-controlled Kabul.

For many it is simply wait-and-see.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 08:57 AM

Oh, for God's sake, Bonzo. Even he's admitted he shouldn't have done it. One of the worst international crises for decades and the foreign secretary won't get his arse off the beach? Do me a favour, mate!

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 06:30 AM

Raab is entitled to a holiday as much as anyone else.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 05:46 AM

No, but they will do him a good curry!!!

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 05:33 AM

I see that our utterly incompetent foreign secretary Mr Raab (the one who refused to desist from sunning himself on a Greek beach just as the West was being routed in Afghanistan by the Taliban) is visiting Pakistan, large tracts of which are bandit country in which al Qaeda and the Taliban find refuge whenever they're on the back foot. I doubt whether the well-meaning Pakistani administration can ever do much about it...

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 04:58 AM

We've seen images on the telly of US gear that had been completely scuttled before the military left. You would do that, I think, if you couldn't get the stuff home...

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 04:33 AM

I do know, but there does seem to be a great deal of babble in this thread!!!

I work with a lovely lady from North Vietnam who's dad helped to inspect aircraft left behind when the usa pulled out!!!

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 02:42 AM

Afghanistan not Afghanibable

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Sep 21 - 01:45 AM

I wonder just how many aircraft/helicopters left behind in Afghanibable actually go???

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 08:31 PM

No. Instead of being all equal about it, Jeri, why not persuade the silly sod to get off my back? Are you actually following the thread?

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 08:06 PM

Will the two of you get a room?

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 07:41 PM

The question has been comprehensively addressed, and please don't make it look like I said "its [sic] the right thing to do" by putting it in quotes. Those were not my words.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 07:21 PM

"Its the right thing to do" is a good reason to not answer the question. There have been many a moot academic question here.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 05:55 PM

What happened historically is irrelevant. This is a moral issue for today. Calling them "foreign" is a familiar distancing tactic. They are in peril because they helped us. We owe them. And we were "foreign" in their country for 20 years, by the way.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 05:03 PM

Historicly the question remains "Does the US army routinely bring cooperating foreign civilians or troops back to the USA. After WWII select Germans and Italians reached US shores. As victors we did not have to meet a deadline as we did today. Other nationalities had to obey immigration laws after wars that we fought in distant countries. They can be virtually traced from the number of new restaurants that appeared in the US.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 05:12 AM

Thanks for the expected insult. Let me look at your question "...but is it really normal and moral to reward all collaborators with a free pass to the US?" from the other side of the mirror: Is it moral to abandon people who have helped you, for many years in many cases, to the mercy of marauding and murderous thugs who are not under any form of central control? Let me remind you again that the Taliban chaps who are politely sitting around tables with us in Qatar are not the same as the Taliban who are running rampant in the Afghanistan countryside. And we in the UK are behaving just as immorally. So the answer to your question, for both our countries, is YES.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 02:10 AM

So is it standard practice to bring allies/collaborators to an invadimg nation's country at the end of hostilities or is this unique to Viet Nam and Afghanistan, wars we lost? I know this is a loaded question like "does slavery have an upside?"

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 01:55 AM

A double agent should appear to be both ally and collaborator to both sides. Otherwise they are either collaborator or allies dependimg on your POV. Do you not see they are both...our allies are wanted by the Taliban for being collaborators, so I don't separate them as you do.
To be one you have to be the other. Its a matter of semantics.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 21 - 09:13 PM

The distinction, Donuel, is between the word "collaborator" (a negative, someone on your side cooperating with the enemy) and allied people in the country who work with the invading army (in this instance, US). To the Taliban, they are collaborators, to the US, they are allies. This is an important point to remember.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 21 - 07:38 PM

A good example that his macho cod piece doth overfloweth.
Like a bad lawyer I'll ask a question that I can't answer.
After WWII did GI's have the opportunity to sail home with; translators, innocent babies from nazi orphanages or double agents?
I know operation paperclip did repatriate actual Nazis in the US but for all your average collaborators I don't know the answer.
Tradition in war is no reason to continue a practice but is it really normal and moral to reward all collaborators with a free pass to the US? just askin

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 21 - 05:52 PM

"This is MUDCAT BS: It is a temple of truth, a blank canvas, a second chance, a fresh start, a culture of honesty, a symposium of reality.

Or is it mostly a bunch of yahoos mouthing off, reducing facts to rumor, people to slime and good ideas into crap?"

It's neither. It's a discussion forum which attracts some wisdom, some prejudice, some foolery and a lot of disagreement. What it doesn't need is a bunch of cod-philosophising over its content in a thread about Afghanistan. Cheers.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 21 - 05:42 PM

A report of military working dogs being left behind is a lie.

Which, considering who said it, isn't suprising.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 21 - 05:26 PM

To rewrite history it is wise to write misinformation often and early.
This is MUDCAT BS: It is a temple of truth, a blank canvas, a second chance, a fresh start, a culture of honesty, a symposium of reality.
Or is it mostly a bunch of yahoos mouthing off, reducing facts to rumor, people to slime and good ideas into crap?
You be the fair and balanced judge.
History is a consensus of the winners and as such is fluid over time.
Afghanistan will be right up there with the hundred years war.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 21 - 05:09 PM

By the way, Bonzo, the use of Latin phrases isn't poncey nonsense to us. In fact, to many of us it's a sine qua non...

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 21 - 05:07 PM

Pen's dedication to his cats and dogs is admirable and I'm quite happy to accept that it wasn't a case of human lives vs animals. Grand. But in the overall scheme of things it's a bit of a peripheral issue and isn't quite in keeping with the substantive in this thread.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Sep 21 - 04:47 PM

Pen Farthing's dogs all arrived in amazing condition and most of them will be adopted by veterans.

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 21 - 04:17 PM

Not little Toto too!

Subject: RE: Afghanistan - then and now
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Sep 21 - 03:22 PM

And I hear that the USA army left their service dogs behind - how disgraceful.