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BS: Veganism

Senoufou 09 Sep 21 - 06:07 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 21 - 06:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Sep 21 - 07:06 AM
Donuel 09 Sep 21 - 07:12 AM
Sandra in Sydney 09 Sep 21 - 07:18 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Sep 21 - 07:26 AM
Senoufou 09 Sep 21 - 07:26 AM
Georgiansilver 09 Sep 21 - 07:28 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Sep 21 - 07:40 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 21 - 07:54 AM
Charmion 09 Sep 21 - 09:03 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 21 - 09:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Sep 21 - 09:16 AM
Stilly River Sage 09 Sep 21 - 10:49 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 21 - 11:45 AM
Senoufou 09 Sep 21 - 11:51 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 09 Sep 21 - 01:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Sep 21 - 01:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Sep 21 - 02:37 PM
Jeri 09 Sep 21 - 02:49 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 21 - 05:27 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 21 - 05:28 PM
Senoufou 09 Sep 21 - 05:44 PM
Raggytash 09 Sep 21 - 06:36 PM
Donuel 09 Sep 21 - 06:42 PM
Bill D 09 Sep 21 - 07:54 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 21 - 07:55 PM
Jeri 09 Sep 21 - 08:00 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 21 - 08:07 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Sep 21 - 08:24 PM
leeneia 09 Sep 21 - 09:31 PM
Dave Hanson 10 Sep 21 - 02:05 AM
Bonzo3legs 10 Sep 21 - 07:52 AM
gillymor 10 Sep 21 - 08:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Sep 21 - 10:10 AM
JHW 10 Sep 21 - 03:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Sep 21 - 12:23 AM
Andrez 11 Sep 21 - 02:25 AM
Senoufou 11 Sep 21 - 04:00 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 21 - 04:46 AM
Dave Hanson 11 Sep 21 - 07:17 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Sep 21 - 07:34 AM
Georgiansilver 11 Sep 21 - 07:35 AM
gillymor 11 Sep 21 - 08:08 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 21 - 09:48 AM
Senoufou 11 Sep 21 - 11:38 AM
leeneia 11 Sep 21 - 12:13 PM
Senoufou 11 Sep 21 - 12:24 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Sep 21 - 03:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Sep 21 - 04:38 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 21 - 05:16 AM
JHW 12 Sep 21 - 05:27 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 21 - 05:30 AM
matt milton 14 Sep 21 - 09:50 AM
Donuel 14 Sep 21 - 03:31 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 21 - 05:04 PM
Senoufou 14 Sep 21 - 05:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Sep 21 - 05:49 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 21 - 06:07 PM
Donuel 14 Sep 21 - 06:55 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Sep 21 - 11:41 PM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 21 - 12:40 AM
Senoufou 15 Sep 21 - 03:59 AM
Donuel 15 Sep 21 - 06:36 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 Sep 21 - 06:58 AM

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Subject: BS: Veganism
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 06:07 AM

I expect this has arisen on Mudcat before now, but I have just read an article about the problems of being a meat-eater among Vegans, and it rather interested me.
There seems to be a growing number of Vegans (my much-loved niece is one, and has been for a long time) and I have had no problem with their philosophy. But they do appear to be getting a bit more militant.
(The article called them the Broccoli Brigade, and the Avocado Army, which made me smile.) McDonalds has now introduced McPlant burgers!
My local Facebook has many postings from Vegans, with horrifying accounts of animals suffering in meat production. This I wholeheartedly abhor, and I'm sure the cruelties should be addressed. I love animals, but I'm afraid I'm still happy to eat them!
Also, we are surely made to need meat in our diet? Amino acids or something? Our dentition is carnivorous in design?
Anyone share my dilemma?
I do love a nice steak/bit of fried bacon/lamb or pork chop/ loads of eggs/roast chicken/lean beef mince/oxtail soup/haggis (YAY!)
I don't think the Avocado Army would approve of me one bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 06:53 AM

I'll go vegan when every carnivorous animal species on the planet also goes vegan.

You can get all the nutrients you need without eating animal products but you will struggle to get Vitamin B12 unless you eat foods with supplements. Hmm. If we didn't keep animals for food or dairy, much land unsuitable for crops would go out of use, meaning less food, though I suppose we could always plant trees. Think upland pastures or the areas which require seasonal animal movements because of drought, for example. And developing-world farmers can't always afford artificial fertilisers, so many depend on animal manure. Having said all that, it behoves all of us to eat a bit less meat and to always question hard the welfare of the animals that provide our meat. I do find it galling to read that around half the wheat and barley production of the UK goes for animal feed. That seems entirely wrong to me. But let's keep veganism/vegetarianism as personal choices, free from militant crusading. There are no black-and-whites in this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:06 AM

I am an omnivore and, in the main, have no qualms about eating meat. What does prick my conscience at times though is that we do breed animals just for the slaughter house. Living in sheep farming country as I do I see the lambs every year and wonder what we would think if we were kept by a higher intelligence just so we could breed children for them to eat. Then I remember that sheep are not known for their philosophical views on death and roast lamb is delicious! Still, I do think it would be better if we could grow "meat" in a lab.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:12 AM

Vegans proudly exclaim they do not eat anything with a face.
They are utterly faceless.

Carnivores generally suffer from low vitamin D levels and vegans B12.
Life goes on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:18 AM

I love vegiburgers, but don't see any point in plant products that look & taste like meat products. Gimme a real lamb chop, or a schnitzel, or fish or some chicken mince. YUM

Give me a yummy lentil burger where I can see & crunch the lentils! YUM.

I often have falafel or vegibugers with lunch & meat/fish for my evening meal.

Some evening meals have a plan, & I reach straight into the freezer for my protein, other nights I pick over parcels till I find something I want.

sandra (off to the kitchen tonight with vegiburgers in mind!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:26 AM

Going vegan won’t necessarily make you live longer, but it will feel a lot longer… ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:26 AM

Oh thank you for your posts! It was interesting to read that a plant-only diet can provide all the nutrients we need (except Vitamin B12)
I too live in a farming area, and there is an abattoir a few miles away. We often see truckloads of beasts on their way to their deaths, and I'm reminded sometimes of the trains taking Jews to the Death Camps during the War.
My neighbour's son works in a turkey farm (Bernard Matthews' factory) and grabs turkeys for slaughter all through the night. I certainly could not do that.
I think that militant crusading on many subjects is rife at the moment.
People seem to be up in arms about all sorts of hot topics.
I don't actually eat all that much meat (my original post was a bit of a joke) but I couldn't go Vegan if you paid me. Husband loves meat, as he had hardly any when he lived in Africa (too poor, just rice and a few bits of onion etc) He gobbles up large amounts of lamb, beef etc and thoroughly enjoys it.
It is indeed a much-divided topic, and people should respect others' choices I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:28 AM

Being vegan is a big missed steak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:40 AM

Behave Mike! :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:54 AM

"Carnivores generally suffer from low vitamin D levels"

Untrue. Most dietary sources are animal in origin, such as oily fish, red meat and eggs. If you're a veggie, you might rely more on artificially-fortified sources such as soya milk and breakfast cereals. In summer, take off your shirt and sun yourself for 20 minutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 09:03 AM

One of my many cousins is a militant vegan whose conversion made her both intolerant and intolerable. She periodically floods Facebook with preachy posts that accuse the rest of us of deliberate cruelty. At this point, I almost don’t care if I never see her again, and she used to be a close friend.

Yes, Sen, our teeth tell us that Mother Nature wants us to eat food that requires ripping and tearing, such as meat, as well as food that has to be chomped and ground, like fruit & veg. The human gut is happiest when we behave like the omnivores we are and eat some of everything, but not too much of anything.

I don’t eat much meat when I’m on my own, so I invite people to dinner so I can have a feed of lamb or duck without resorting to a restaurant. Life is too short to forgo such pleasures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 09:05 AM

I suppose one day a scientist will discover that plants are, in fact, sentient beings. Then we won't be able to eat anything. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 09:16 AM

There was a TV thing once where a cult would only drink water and eat fruit that had fallen. Other than that I cannot remember owt else about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 10:49 AM

That was a plot point with one of the dates presented to Hugh Grant in Nottinghill. I think it was "fruitarian." Murdered carrots were part of the dinner.

I don't eat anywhere as much meat as I used to - the days are long gone when a whole chicken breast or a large steak were put on the plate with veggies beside it and a salad bowl nearby. The chicken or beef go into other dishes more as flavor or one of many ingredients. Casseroles, fajitas, soups, etc. Maybe I don't eat enough meat or vegetables - my doctors have me take a daily Vitamin D and B12. (Vit. D has to do with calcium retention and it is my age as much as anything affecting that directive.)

I also find that when I go shopping if I leave the register with several bags and the cost was low, I realize I didn't buy any meat. It is the most expensive part of the meal generally. I shop at a warehouse discount grocery that gets meat, veggies, fruit, canned and boxed goods from the wholesale distributors who didn't manage to sell whatever it was. So I buy chicken marked for sale at one of the grocery stores with a red marker slash mark across the price - it's now in the freezer and it is half price. Chicken, beef, sausage, I don't usually see pork chops or sirloin there, but I find enough to keep me going. I never buy the pre-ground beef hamburger any more, not for years (since 2009, in fact) after reading The Burger That Shattered Her Life in the New York Times. I grind my own, usually from chuck roasts I buy on sale.

I have a couple of acquaintances who are quite strident with their vegan mantras - and I ignore it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 11:45 AM

The NYT piece is an appalling read. Maybe I'm prejudiced, but that confirmed for me the severe doubts some of us remainers had during brexit about low American food standards, which we were threatened with having to endure once we struck a trade deal after leaving the EU.

I buy burgers from M&S occasionally. It's a food retailer of high repute. Sometimes I make my own from minced steak that I buy from Donald Russell, an online Scottish butcher also of high repute. I treat all raw meat as potentially contaminated and treat my kitchenware and work surfaces, as well as my hands, accordingly. I won't cut corners just because I think no-one is looking. My steaks are medium to rare, but that's fine because the outside and inside of the meat don't get jumbled up. I would never eat a burger that still had even the slightest trace of pink in the middle. I could mince my own beef but I haven't got a sensible spot in our smallish kitchen where I can install a mincer.

We've replaced all of our milk-drinking, except in cups of tea and coffee, with Alpro oat milk. It's fortified with B12, it tastes quite nice, it's fat-free and it doesn't have that sort of vaguely gassy, farty indigestibility of cow's milk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 11:51 AM

I think I eat a good, balanced diet (not so many crumpets during the warm Summer) with oily salmon, eggs, much fruit and raw spinach leaves, and I like pork lunch tongue (oh dear, those poor pigs) plus a cooked chicken from Morrisons. I also like the odd teaspoonful of codliver oil (oh dear, the poor fish).
My super sister is more-or-less a Cordon Bleu cook. And she prepares the most gorgeous Vegan food when her daughter comes for a weekend visit. They also go out together to the very best Edinburgh restaurants which offer a Vegan option on their menus. They seem to have achieved a compromise, but my sister would not tolerate her daughter preaching at her for eating delicious meaty meals.
My sister is a Tory, a feminist and a Christian. Her daughter is a feminist, a Vegan, a Communist (honestly!) and a Buddhist. But they can behave respectfully and lovingly towards each other. A lesson there I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 01:20 PM

I can't go vegan while cheese exists, real cheese that is. I have tried vegan cheese but it isn't cheese.

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 01:37 PM

My daughters are not vegan but they are vegetarian and lactose intolerant. When they come round I quite enjoy the vegan ham (sham) and vegan bacon (facon). The only vaguely decent vegan alternative I have found for cheese is a feta one but can't remember what it is called. I do really like a lot of the tofu dishes they make.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 02:37 PM

I have just read that yeast is a good source of vitamin B12 so vegans can eat marmite or drink lots of beer :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 02:49 PM

I could probably survive as a vegetarian, although I like beef, and steak, and chicken. I'd have to contemplate suicide if I had to be a vegan. I love dairy. I love real cream in my coffee, and cheese, and butter. I don't eat a lot of it, but some is necessary for my sanity. I don't know where eggs fit in, but I like them, too.
And if I went to a vegan meal with friends, I'd enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 05:27 PM

I'm a fiend for eggs. I could eat a dozen a day but I have to severely hold back. Raw, soft-boiled, hard-boiled, scrambled, fried, omelette, poached, frittata, tortilla, eggy bread, eggs benedict, mayo, carbonara (oh my beloved carbonara...), in flans, quiches, custards, ice cream... To misquote Gluck, Oh egg, what is life for me without thee?


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 05:28 PM

Egg butties. I forgot egg butties. Oh joy, egg butties...


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 05:44 PM

I have eaten raw lamb's kidneys nearly all my long life. I take the outer skin off, wash them thoroughly, chop all the meat off and chuck away the middle. Then I eat it completely raw.
But just last week I got an absolute bollocking off my sister. She said I must STOP eating them like this as they could contain Salmonella, E Coli and other nasties. She was very very cross with me, so I took her advice.
But I've never suffered any harm, and I aint dead yet.
I like raw liver too, but she started up again, so I promised not to eat that either.
I think I'm a long way from ever becoming a Vegan!


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 06:36 PM

The BEST eggs I ever tasted were made by my beloved Grandma. She got eggs from my Aunt Mary-Ann's farm.

She would slather (liberally coat for our American cousins) a saucer with butter, crack an egg into the saucer with a generous seasoning of salt and black pepper and bake it in the oven until just right.

Served with a few chips she could make Egg and Chips seem like a banquet!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 06:42 PM

Unfortunately, about 42% of the US population is vitamin D deficient with some populations having even higher levels of deficiency, including premenopausal women, those with poor nutrition habits, people over age 65, Caucasians who avoid even minimal sun exposure, and those who take prescription medication long term ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:54 PM

Our ancestors for 5 million years were omnivores. Some 'may' have died from allergies to meat, but I suspect that's a fairly recent issue.
   For those who assert that every being that's 'aware' deserves to live, I ask... when did this rule become a governing principle? People with the leisure time to think about it have only lived in the last 3-4 thousand years.

A friend of mine once knew two young women who announced they intended to be vegetarian.
He asked them.."Is this religious, or health concern..or is it BBES?"

"Huh? what's that"...

"BBES,,,Big Brown Eyes Syndrome."

They came back later and admitted that is WAS mostly BBES, and they would merely reduce their meat intake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 07:55 PM

You foolish man, Raggytash. Egg and chips IS a banquet!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 08:00 PM

I do omelets, mostly with cheese. I like fried eggs. When I was a kid, I couldn't stand runny ones, but now, I love them. I constantly search for the perfect poached egg. If I can get it without a foamy white, and put it on something else, and use the glorious golden yolk as a sort of sauce.

Don, I've been taking vitamin D3 supplements for a while. My neurologist and my primary care doc recommended them. Apparently, they're essential for MS patients, but I also live in the sun-deprived northeast USA, and have had one episode of skin cancer. I also was prescribed vitamin B12 supplements, so I don't know what sort of a diet I can get vitamin-ly messed up with.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 08:07 PM

Well, Bill, a lovely young woman and I (when I myself was a lovely young man, so I'm going back a bit) once went on a date in London. It wasn't until we were in a pub in Charing Cross that she regaled me with her vegan beliefs. I remember her lamenting the fact that people who ate sausages, etc, did it without remembering that said sausages came from "poor little pink pigs..."

I didn't have much of an answer, and I must admit that the evening was a little subdued from then on. The fact that we'd accidentally chosen a gay pub didn't exactly help (different times, different times...) Then I noticed that she was wearing some rather lovely red leather shoes. I was daft enough to challenge her about them. Well off she stormed. I don't think I ever saw her again!


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 08:24 PM

Mrs Steve did clinical trials for ten years for anti-breast cancer drugs (Tamoxifen and Anastrozole), as she has the misfortune of belonging to two families with strong histories of the disease. As part of her trial she had several bone density scans which revealed that she was part-way between normal and osteoporosis (she's fine, by the way). For many years now she's taken vitamin D supplements which also contain calcium (the tablets are called Calcichew this end). B12 is present in many foods of animal origin. I myself am at slightly-increased risk of a deficiency because I have to take a proton pump inhibitor (lanzoprazole) to protect my gut from the NSAID I take for my bad back (life can be complicated!), and that can mess up B12 absorption to an extent. Hey ho. Just telling you what I know out of necessity. Advice elsewhere!


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: leeneia
Date: 09 Sep 21 - 09:31 PM

Ames, Iowa has many international students, sent by their countries to study agriculture. A friend of mine met one of them, a beautiful young woman from India whose back was hurting her. She went to a doctor and he said he was familiar with her problem. She had been a vegetarian all her life, and her nervous system, which needs B vitamins, has not been getting them. Finally, her spinal chord and major nerves could not take it anymore.

I never learned how this all turned out, but when I was visiting, every suggestion for something to eat that would solve this problem was met with a shrug and a pathetic whimper. This young lady just could not turn her back on familial indoctrination and take care of her own body.
==========
One of my science magazines had an article a few months ago which reported that vegans get more hip fractures than other people.
==========
What's wrong with eggs? They are just food packages, they were never living creatures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Sep 21 - 02:05 AM

I have several vegetarian/vegan friends, I find most of them hypocritical, if they come and eat at my house, I wouldn't dream of serving them meat, but if I eat at their houses you get vegetarian food like it or lump it, if I respect their eating ethics why won't they respect mine ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Sep 21 - 07:52 AM

My sister just didn't eat meat. She never said she was a vegetarian or worse a vegan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Sep 21 - 08:55 AM

Dave Hanson, I'm a guy who's abstained from meat eating for more than 15 years (I make an exception for fish that I harvest myself several times a year) and I can't stand the smell of cooking meat any more and can't even imagine bringing meat into my house and cooking it for others. When we have folks over for a meal it's understood that the fare will be vegetarian and, fortunately, we've got some dishes that every one likes, at least they say they do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Sep 21 - 10:10 AM

I've accepted I couldn't be a vegetarian..

.. I don't like fish...


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: JHW
Date: 10 Sep 21 - 03:46 PM

I became veggie, (not vegan) in 1985. No problem to me but I couldn't go back. Taste changes involuntarily. Butcher's market stalls, someones steak and kidney pie smell awful!
(I have freinds who used to catch fish at sea for a living so still eat fish.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 12:23 AM

Has veggie high command passed down any proclamations about insect protein...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Andrez
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 02:25 AM

I like to keep it simple and just dont eat meat but am happy to have a nibble of fresh caught fish along with a nice serve of veggies heated or saladised.

I've often found vegans to be a little too hardcore or sanctimonious in their dietary views as well as have some of he other thread contributors. At times some discussions with vegans have parallels with political discussions with people of a conservative persuasion. I try to avoid those as much as I do to avoid eaing meat.

Cheers,

Andrez


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 04:00 AM

That's true Andrez. What upsets me the most are the graphic and horrifying posts on our local Facebook by a small group of Vegans, showing film clips of animals suffering in turkey or chicken farms, pigs crammed into crates and so on.
My lovely Vegan neighbour, the gay vet nurse, and her partner, run a Sheep Sanctuary, and they take in 'culls', rejected by farmers for being unsuitable for lamb production. They keep showing the injuries, deformities, neglect etc. and it really upsets me. I support their sanctuary financially as best I can.
They'd like everyone to become Vegan, but I just couldn't, much as I'm very fond of these two young ladies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 04:46 AM

Humph. I'd have liked to have seen how long a vegan caveman would have survived...


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 07:17 AM

I like it Steve.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 07:34 AM

But isn’t the diet of ‘cavemen’ (or something along those lines) the basis of the Paleo Diet which, I’m told by American friends who are adherents, is super-healthy in every respect?

Genuine question, BTW - I’m pretty ignorant about Paleo and, quite frankly, have no interest in radical, fad-diets anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 07:35 AM

Simple question. If we weren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made of very edible meat?


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 08:08 AM

That sounds like a question someone in the Donner Party must have posed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 09:48 AM

The Paleo diet, like all fad diets, is predicated on unproven notions (I said unproven, not false...) about what's good and bad for us. You're not supposed to consume wheat, barley, oats, beans, peas, milk, cheese or spuds, among other things. Cavemen didn't have them so we're not adapted to them, and that causes problems, so they say. A non-Paleo diet can lead to heart disease, obesity and heart disease, we're told. That conveniently sidesteps the fact that in those nasty and brutish times you generally didn't live long enough to get all that stuff. I looked up a piece on the Paleo diet on the Mayo Clinic website. Included in a suggested menu are cantaloupe melons and avocados. Clearly both part of the staple diet of those Palaeolithic chaps... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 11:38 AM

Hee hee Steve, I bet they didn't have quinoa, tofu, dates, caviar etc or sat in their caves eating toasted crumpets with lots of butter. (Or choc-ices)
People live long lives nowadays (Covid permitting) and one hears of many reaching a hundred, especially round here in Norfolk.
Smoking, alcoholism and too much fattening stuff are I think major causes of shortening lives.
It always amazes me how the Africans I've observed manage to survive on such poor food, mostly rice with a bit of whatever they can rustle up. But then, they walk everywhere, cultivate their fields by hand with a 'daba' (hoe type of thing) and have no 'labour-saving' devices, and no electricity. This makes them super-fit. They aren't Vegans, and if they can get their hands on some chicken or a bit of lamb (throat cut with a sharp knife during the feast of Eid) they're delighted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 12:13 PM

there are supposed to be combinations of plant foods which supply all the amino acids we need. This is worth looking into.                                                      
                                                   
I can understand how a person who has convinced himself that meat is bad can not face it, same as a Jew or Muslim would feel queasy eating pork.    What I don't understand is people who, the first sentence out of their mouths when you meet them, is their dietary preferences. Then they talk of almost nothing else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 12:24 PM

You're quite right leeneia. They harp on something terrible don't they?
I'm sorry to say my 'Muslim' husband loves ...er...bacon. And ham. And roast pork. He calls it 'Muslim pork'! But unlike Vegans, I never say a word about what he eats. He's a grown man and can choose for himself. That's how Vegans should view us meat eaters. Eat and Let Eat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Sep 21 - 03:22 PM

[unless they are doing secretive dodgy illicit muscle building drugs...???]

Vegans can get enough protein from their diet to become competition body builders...


btw.. I was being serious with my earlier question about vegetarian attitudes to recent food products made from insect protein...


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 21 - 04:38 AM

I dunno about insects PFR but I have a vegan friend who will happily eat mussels because they are more akin to plants than animals!


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 21 - 05:16 AM

In similar vein, a friend of a friend claims to be dairy intolerant and avoids all dairy products.

Except for milk chocolate. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: JHW
Date: 12 Sep 21 - 05:27 AM

Intolerance represents level of content. Girlfriend was gluten intolerant but ate packet curry ok because she knew she could. But it contained gluten.
Another girlfriend was a hospital case on one pine nut.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 21 - 05:30 AM

Ye gods, pine nuts. I can sit there and scoff a whole bag of them...


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: matt milton
Date: 14 Sep 21 - 09:50 AM

Gonna have to be done if we want our children to live in a world that isn't hell on earth

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/13/meat-greenhouses-gases-food-production-study?fbclid=IwAR1FoOUI8hZ6hoqe2INw21


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Subject: RE: solutions
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Sep 21 - 03:31 PM

The advantages of cloned meat in 8 weeks

For fundamentalist vegans there are all plant based versions that use a sythetic meat protein for flavor. (McDonalds uses the prorein for consistant flavor already.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 21 - 05:04 PM

I've never understood why "vegans" want food that looks and tastes like real meat. I've seen quorn mince that looks exactly like real minced beef (it tastes like shite, but hey ho). I've seen vegan lamb chops that look just like real lamb chops. Bejayus, in Marks and Sparks today today I saw vegan "bacon" that was brown just like bacon, streaky rasher shaped and which had the fatty stripes in the "rashers" exactly in the right place. For God's sake!


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Sep 21 - 05:39 PM

Some Vegan posted a photo of a pile of (real) bacon rashers, with the added tag "My name was Emma" I suppose referring to the pig.
I felt like replying, "Hello Emma. Nice to eat you!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Sep 21 - 05:49 PM

Steve - My edumacated guess is it's a ploy to ease us more open minded omnivores into trying out
and converting to their cult...

A bit like The Children of God sending forth "flirty fishers"
to trawel in thousands of gullible sex starved men for Jesus.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 21 - 06:07 PM

All I can say is, much as I love McCartney and Linda, I will not purchase, let alone eat, a Linda McCartney sausage. I don't even want to know what's in 'em. I do cook a few vegan dishes, and even more vegetarian ones, and I think we should all endeavour to eat more of them, but nothing in them emulates meat in any shape or form. To me, a sausage is a banger. Calling vegan grub "sausages," "chops," rashers" or "cutlets" is just bonkers. I'm sure they all taste very nice but the fact that they are called those things puts me off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Sep 21 - 06:55 PM

I had vegan sausage at Panara and sent them back. They came back worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Sep 21 - 11:41 PM

I made a batch of falafel this evening, and with chick peas and bulgar wheat it works as a complex carbohydrate. Legume and grains combine to work like a protein replacement. Thing is, for people who protest eating meat for reasons to do with how livestock are raised, they need to look at what industrial agriculture does to raise those peas and that wheat. It is easily as destructive to the environment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 21 - 12:40 AM

In my early to mid 20s when I was so skint I had to mostly eat
as if I was a vegetarian;
I became sufficiently informed on the pulse, grain, and nut
combinations which provided the full range of amino acids required to make up effective dietary protein...

Now that I'm facing up to retirement age with no pension or savings,
at least I can fairly easily fall back into that spartan lifestyle
if needs must..

I've already given up all dairy products, including my lifelong beloved Cheddar Cheese
due to health reasons...


Oh well, back to germinating beansprouts and alfalfa in the kitchen,
If I survive covid long enough...

Even though I don't want too, I could probably go vegan under the right circumstances..

Not for sanctimonious moral reasons,
but to cope with financial deprivations...

I have that kind of all or nothing personality,
and self discipline for tolerating forced reductions in variety of lifestyle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Sep 21 - 03:59 AM

Oh dear pfr, I'm so sorry you'll be struggling financially. Are there Food Banks in your area? We contribute regularly to one, and a lovely lady in our village transports all the stuff to the big central food bank in the nearby town. It helps folk like your good self to 'keep afloat' nutritionally.
Africans often find themselves in the same situation, eating only the much cheaper cereals (mostly rice) with a few bits of vegetables made into a 'sauce' with added spices. Very tasty, but not enough protein.
Meat (chicken or mutton) is only eaten at religious feast times (and many families can't afford that either)
My poor husband was physically very depleted when he arrived in UK. He had rickets (his legs are still bandy!) and he had osteoporosis, bones like sponges. Fortunately, with an excellent, balanced diet, he soon became stronger, and after being in hospital with 'shin splints' and an acute abdomen (infected intestinal damage die to worms), he flourished.
I suppose it's having seen all this that has made me reject Vegans' suggestions to abandon meat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Sep 21 - 06:36 AM

The American homegrown -?- conspiracy cult Q anon still blames Democrats for the most despicable carnivorous habit of all, eating human babies. Names are named and believed, but I've never found evidence of a recipe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Veganism
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Sep 21 - 06:58 AM

Sen - thanks for caring, but it's not as bad as that yet..

We'll have my wife's teaching pension, which she's over optimistic
will be enough for both of us..

It'll be tougher for her to adjust to cope without frivolous luxuries.

All her mates are loaded from inheriting properties, and have husbands with big corporate salaries..

Their teaching pensions will be pin money by comparison..

I've just read that wives who have incomplete NI contribution history
might be able to claim something like 60% state pension.
That might be fact...?

However I suspect House Husbands without full NI might be buggered
by good old fashioned sex discrimination...???

There's so much I need to find out,
but the last decade has been devoted to my mum's care,
and so through lack of time and energy I've neglected to even think about my own...

Never mind, me and the mrs both can do with losing a few stones of fat each...

I used to live on something like 20 pence a meal when I was a student.
Peanut butter, tahini, and alfalfa sarnies were really nice...


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Mudcat time: 18 September 5:59 PM EDT

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