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Question about Irish vs English fiddling

The Sandman 29 Sep 21 - 05:20 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 21 - 05:24 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 29 Sep 21 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 29 Sep 21 - 07:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 21 - 07:55 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 29 Sep 21 - 08:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 21 - 09:11 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 21 - 09:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 21 - 09:26 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 21 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,PB 29 Sep 21 - 12:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 21 - 12:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 21 - 12:51 PM
The Sandman 29 Sep 21 - 01:35 PM
The Sandman 29 Sep 21 - 01:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 21 - 02:15 PM
The Sandman 29 Sep 21 - 02:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 21 - 03:30 PM
The Sandman 29 Sep 21 - 04:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 21 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,PB 30 Sep 21 - 03:52 PM
Brian Peters 30 Sep 21 - 07:30 PM
GUEST,PB 30 Sep 21 - 07:57 PM
Brian Peters 30 Sep 21 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,Peter Laban 01 Oct 21 - 01:51 AM
The Sandman 01 Oct 21 - 03:31 AM
The Sandman 01 Oct 21 - 03:46 AM
Brian Peters 01 Oct 21 - 04:00 AM
GUEST 01 Oct 21 - 04:01 AM
The Sandman 01 Oct 21 - 04:02 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 01 Oct 21 - 05:25 AM
Brian Peters 01 Oct 21 - 06:34 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 01 Oct 21 - 06:49 AM
matt milton 01 Oct 21 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,PB 01 Oct 21 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,scotch bonnet 02 Oct 21 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Oct 21 - 09:51 AM
meself 02 Oct 21 - 11:15 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 02 Oct 21 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 02 Oct 21 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 03 Oct 21 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 03 Oct 21 - 08:52 AM
The Sandman 04 Oct 21 - 04:43 PM
The Sandman 05 Oct 21 - 07:26 AM
GUEST 05 Oct 21 - 12:17 PM
The Sandman 05 Oct 21 - 04:36 PM
The Sandman 05 Oct 21 - 04:48 PM
The Sandman 05 Oct 21 - 04:57 PM
The Sandman 06 Oct 21 - 03:28 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 05:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 05:20 AM

NO


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 05:24 AM

It was alright if you were upwind of him, with a little encouragement he would do trombone impersonations, not as well as le petomane


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 05:47 AM

Peter, I,m pleased to hear your implication that that use of regulators in increasing in Ireland, I can't comment on that except that if so, I'd approve of it, as reverting to earlier styles, which I think is a good thing!

    Dick, you are happy to applaud improvements/innovations to traditional music, which by definition, has its roots in the past. I think a lot more value should be given (in music or singing) to people from the past who learned from earlier players. This is not reactionary- Tim Lyons was an example- his music was straightforward, acceptable in a social context and without all the excessive ornamentation & gimmicks prevalent today- Jimmy Shand had sinilar attributes.

    I don't think the current idolatry of folk celebs and their   antics is of any value to traditional music, and nor is the pseudo inteelectual crap of any use except to academics & nerds.

    The music has headed off in a different direction, away from this reverent and'precious' approach and into the commercial world. I don't like it & I don't think you do, but although there's not much we can do about it but detest it!- the result in my case is that I'd much prefer listening to Randy Newman or Bunk Johnson than anything on the folk scene today.

I think that'sll I have to say, it's opinion and taste & nowt to do with the thread, so I think I'll call it a day there- I'll stick to my eclectic apprach to the 'folk' repertoire if I ever get my box out of the case again....


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 07:52 AM

Jim, I was posting for my phone and was perhaps brief and perhaps giving the impression of being snide. I also want to avoid involving myself too deep into this discussion for a number of reasons.

I'd suggest pipers like Mick O'Brien, Gay McKeon (and his son Sean for that matter), Emnett Gill, Tiarnan Duinnchin, Blackie O Connell, Leonard Barry, Mickie Smyth, Colm Broderick, Eanna Drury, Kevin Rowsome, Leo Rickard and loads of others (and I would include myself in there) should lay to rest the notion regulators are a redundant piece of equipment.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 07:55 AM

Dick

If it was the link you posted as https://www.singdanceandplay.net › 2010/11 › En... PDF then, no, I didn't read it because I could not follow it. I did however post a link on English fiddle earlier and did read that.

Yes, taste is a personal thing but you are missing the point. I am trying to find out why we like one thing more than another that is very similar. Purely out interest. I was hoping this question may throw some light on that but up to now the only suggestion is about ornamentation and that has been disputed. You make an interesting point about major and minor keys but I don't think that is relevant for me as I like both!

One thing that has been touched on is music for dance. Maybe the English exponents of folk music, including fiddle players, play to a stricter tempo for dancing? I don't know if that is true though


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 08:38 AM

Dancing is popular in many parts of Ireland, especially here in the west. A lot of players will have experience of playing for the sets. I have sat for hundreds of nights playing for the sets. With Jackie Daly, as it happens, and others.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 09:11 AM

Thanks Peter. So it's not that either!


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 09:21 AM

what do you mean by stricter tempo for dancing,
you play for the dncers and at the tempo they require, that can vary, as i already pointed out for hornpipes very slow for solo step dancing, and considerably faster for sets hrnpipes and less swung, and more swung for hrnpipe country dances like belfast duck, it is not just about speed.
jim bainbridge,
we were talking about button accordions the use of harmony and basses not in `1968 but in the 21st century
i used the term reactionary as backward looking, you mentioned an example of tim lyons in 1968[that is backward looking], and does not represent chromatic bc, c sharp d or d dsharp, button accordions, played in the 21st century.
   for anyone to suggest that we should take tim lyons comment of ignoring the basses as a model, or scotch bonnets comment of playing any old notes and using basses just for percussiion, as progressive ways forward for accordion playing is ridiculous.,
    furthermore it gives a wrong impression of what these boxes capabilities are in the hands of modern players who understand harmony.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 09:26 AM

By stricter tempo I am referring to consistency rather than speed. Ie, it never speeds up or slows down.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 11:46 AM

well, my experience of playing for dancing for both english and iriash dancers is this, you spped up if the caller asks you [english] you speed up if the dancers ask you irish [because there is no caller they all know the feckin dances], so there is no difference


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,PB
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 12:00 PM

Who decides if the ornamentation/ tempo/ whatever else is "excessive"?


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 12:50 PM

I think that once the speed is decided then strict tempo then sticks with that. There are some dances which require a change in speed, such as the capers in some Morris jigs, but in the main people don't expect their dances to change speed! Good examples of strict tempo can be found amongst the works of Scottish dance bands and any marching band.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 12:51 PM

Too many thens!


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 01:35 PM

oh my god, dancers dictate, do you understand Dave, you are playing for the dancers, if they want to speed up or slow down they will say [in ireland]
.people don't expect their dances to change speed!" so in England why do callers ask to speed it up or slow it down dave[ they feckin well do]
and in ireland why do dancers ask, because they feel they can dance to it better at a different speed,
they rarely change speed through a turn or an a part, but often in England when the caller feels the dancers have got the hang of the dance they will ask the band to speed up a little. but generally when the dnce starts again
so you are playing for beginners in England, you start off slowly, when they have the hang of it you go a little faster if the caller asks for it.
for morris dancing, the dancers and the conditions[ grass or concrete] dictate the speed, plus the age and agility of the dancers.
in answer to your question, it depends on the type of dances and the dncers.
now polkas in england are quite different from polkas in ireland. the dance is different and in 4 /4 in ireland they are more like 2/4


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 01:42 PM

i have had 45 years experience Dave ok


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 02:15 PM

I enjoy dance music, Dick, but nowadays I don't often dance. I am happy to accept that you have more experience. You say that the caller 'often' asks for a change of speed. How often? Is it the norm? Because I have never experienced it. Besides which, in the absence of going to dances, I listen to recorded music, watch Morris dance and go to concerts. I have never heard much change of tempo there. Apart from the capers exception I mentioned earlier. All beside the point anyway. I like music with a strict tempo. I find that, in the main, it is English and Scottish music I lean towards.

Personal taste? Yes, of course it is. I am trying to dig a bit deeper as to why that is. Purely out of an interest in human nature, not to fight. I have no quarrel with you and have not disputed anything you have said. There is no need to be so patronising.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 02:36 PM

Dave, are you suggesting that irish dance music is not played at a strict dance tempo?
live dance music is not the same beast as recorded dance music, for reasons i have already explained, beginners learning dances etc


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 03:30 PM

I have never suggested that at all. I do keep saying I don't know what it is that accounts for my tastes. Up to now ornamentation, major/minor keys and strict tempo have been suggested. You yourself have disproved that the ornamentation and tempo are no different. I like both major and minor keyed tunes. So I am back to square 1. Maybe personal tastes are just random, but I doubt it. It does link back to the question in the OP and maybe the answer lies in the linked articles but I have not yet spotted it.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 04:12 PM

maybe you are just like the guy who just liked baked beans


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 21 - 04:32 PM

I enjoy the farting...


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,PB
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 03:52 PM

But, as I pointed out earlier, in the modern Irish tradition, the music often isn't for dancing to. Who defines "excessive" then?


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 07:30 PM

Some good points here, especially from our guest 'PB'. If we are talking about the style still current in English music sessions, then the harmonic approach of 1970s bands like Old Swan, New Victory and Flowers & Frolics remains influential. None had a guitarist, but there were banjos and brass, and all three were based around a melodeon playing the basses in the classic 'oom-pah' style. Jacky Daly and some others do use their basses, but the technique and effect are quite different. A more leisurely pace, and a preference for polka over reel, were crucial reasons why ECM has always lent itself more readily to harmony.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,PB
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 07:57 PM

Guitarist. That is the harmony that holds together both Irish and English sessions, when the melodic musicians don't have the time . space and vision to do it themselves. It takes a good clear brain to hear: what is going on (OK you know it, you've played it a hundred times before), what can happen here to make it interesting (without buggering up what the others are doing), and what you can do yourself, and finish up alongside the other... without making them look bad. Sessions are easy, and hard. If you're better than the others, the bonus is in YOU to blend in.

Back to fiddling. No difference until recently invented stuff.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 08:07 PM

I was in the privileged position of being the guitarist in an English dance band otherwise composed entirely of melody instruments. 'World', 'oyster', etc.

make it interesting (without buggering up what the others are doing)

Well I tried. With varying degrees of success...


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 01:51 AM

I spent last night at a concert by two very fine fiddle players. It would be extremely silly to think they didn't have the time or vision to pla harmonies. Or needed a backer to hold them together. They didn't need any of that. I don't know why it is so hard yo accept for you guys that the Irish tradition is a melodic one that gets its impact from something else than harmony.
And Jackie Daly, getting a mention just before a statement about a preference for polkas over reels that is apparently lacking in Irish players. It makes me wonder.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 03:31 AM

modern [ as played in the 21st century] irish tradtional music is used for dancing, the proof of this is that the dancers are so familiar with the dances they do not need a caller.
in answer to Brian Peters remarks, speed bears not relation to the use of harmony, and furthermore the speed for dancing in ireland and for playing for dancing does vary a lot
the prefernce for polka over reel is not entirely accurate[ we are talking here only about southern english music not northumbrian. in comparion to irish music .
firstly irish music uses2/4 polkas slides reels jigs mazurkas hornpipes, southern english music used jigs[ a musical form mostly of irish origin and 4/4 polkas] which were originally of european origin.
just as there is variation in speed and tempo between southern english music and northummbrian music, so there is s variation in speed and tempo betweenvarious regional styles in Ireland.
speed and tempo bears no relation to the abilty to use harmony.
I too played in an English Country dance band in the 1970sand 1980s. and
having played both have to say in fairness that the harmonic structure of irish music is more varied.
I notice too that two people who i used to play with in a band john and katie howson, also now play sliabh luchra music which of course is irish
The fault of playing too fast is never the fault of the music, but of the players playing it.
and in my experience in the 1970s it was the fault of some irish musicians in England who played in sessions and who were not playing for dancing
I have been insulted on this thread by somebody who has exposed their ignorance of the bc, csharp d, and d dsharp system.
nothing, i have said is anything other than an accurate recollection and statement, and is not pseudo intellectual crap, some people on this forum and on this thread need to get their facts right


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 03:46 AM

one other point.
In relation to speed the faster the player goes the more difficult it becomes to ornament the tune, that is my experience

I was running a folk festival session in the uk four years ago, trying to accomodate people playing both english and irish music,
when a xenophobic rude person [who was playing amandolin banjo badly]. got up complaining about too much irish music
i am not prepared to put up with xenophobic crap in relation to music


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 04:00 AM

I don't know why it is so hard yo accept for you guys that the Irish tradition is a melodic one that gets its impact from something else than harmony.

This is clear, obvious and accepted. I was merely trying to suggest why English music as played over the last 40 years has evolved in its own particular direction.

Of course Irish music doesn't lack polkas (though in my limited experience they don't dominate ITM sessions), but the whole 'No Reels' approach in England - especially the South as Dick says - revolved around polkas played at a particular pace. Some of us in the North put a lot of effort in to finding alternative approaches, but this style - driven by melodeons playing oom-pah style - is still very influential.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 04:01 AM


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 04:02 AM

if one analyses musically, most of the tunes in the southern english folk repertoire that i hear played they are in the major key, a very small percentage are in the dorian mode.
irish music uses the dorian mode, the major key, the mixolydian[flat 7] and to a lesser extent the aeolian mode
northumbrian english music, has more of a scottish influence and uses mixolydian, dorian, and the major key
Shetland music is intersting too, particularly the harmonic influence of guitarist, peerie willie, who learned his style from listening to jazz guitarist eddie lang., on shortwave radio during the second world war
a wonderful example of crossover between jazz and trad.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 05:25 AM

'This is clear, obvious and accepted.'

Is it though Brian?

When I read this thread the comments of some people have me wondering if that is really the case.

A like :

[i]'Guitarist. That is the harmony that holds together both Irish and English sessions, when the melodic musicians don't have the time . space and vision to do it themselves.'[/i]

with its suggestion some musicians don't have the vision to do something, when in fact they don't have the need and don't need 'holding together' the music is complete in itself.


As I said, I listened to two very fine fiddlers playing to their heart's content last night and there was nothibng missing. In fact I think putting a guitarist in that context would have only acted as a distraction. These musicians had great rapport, and a quick witted exchange of on the spot musical ideas, a constant interplay of humour, divilment and plain ordibary fun interaction. That's what Irish music is about.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Brian Peters
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 06:34 AM

Peter, your two fiddlers sound wonderful, and I'd have loved to hear them. I remember seeing Patrick Street (who of course did have a guitarist) a number of years ago and, although it was a great concert throughout, the piece that really stood out for me was Kevin Burke's solo fiddle performance, which exhibited all kinds of subtleties and a superb grasp of dynamics.

I claim no expertise in the matter, but I have always understood that a 'pure drop' Irish session would consist mostly or only of melodic instruments, and that guitars are generally considered unnecessary. That said, prominent concert acts (Planxty, Bothy Band, Patrick Street, Hayes & Cahill) have over the years used either bouzoukis or guitars to fill out a harmonic accompaniment. I'm still not sure, though, whether this is quite what the OP was asking about!


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 06:49 AM

I wouldn't suggest accompaniment hasn't been used to great effect. But neither do I think that was the OP's focus.

The fiddlers were part of a series of young musicians playing with an older one that inspired them. A series started before Covid, with a brief reprise when the first lockdown ended during the summer of 2020 and now back in full flight. They were Sorcha Costello and Frankie Gavin.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: matt milton
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 08:01 AM

My suspicion is that the OP is thinking largely of modern groups. (By 'modern' I mean anything really from the last 40 years) If you think of recordings of English groups, it's hard to think of any group that doesn't arrange their material in thoroughly harmonised form (or what a jazzer would call reharmonized or reharm versions).

As some have pointed out above, there are certain instruments that harmonise by default - eg pipes with their drone. While this unquestionably a type of harmony, there's still a world of difference between a piper and a fiddler duetting in an Irish pub recorded on an old Topic album for example and, say, what Leveret or English Acoustic Collective do. I'd love it if more English musicians made 'pure drop' albums.

For instance, I've heard both Sam Sweeney and John Dipper playing entirely solo sets live, and in both cases I thought it was way more engaging and subtler yet also more intense than in their group recordings.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,PB
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 10:41 AM

You're right, in the hands of some (relatively few in my experience) really good players, the fiddle, flute, whistle, etc. can carry it off with neither rhythm nor harmony/ chordal backing. Again, in my experience, it's more likely to work for solo or duet melody than larger groups, and I was implicitly referring to session playing. I'd expect professionals to be able to do it; it's their job to be good. But the average (not power) session, with the usual mixed bag of competences and confidences, can certainly be made a better experience for both players and eavesdroppers by a good chordal rhythmic backing. I've a particular guitarist in mind, and he's certainly not me. He isn't actually a brilliant guitarist as such, but he can make almost any session gel. His only fault is the tendency to start djangoing after the fifth pint...


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,scotch bonnet
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 09:22 AM

PB- When those solo instruments are well played, they need no musical harmony or accompaniment, except probably a well-placed rhythmic FOOT.

My previous comment were about accordeon players in Ireland but my point about percussion (often with a loud footstomp as well) is surely supporteded by the players of the instruments you mention.

There is an obsession today with alleged progress- quite apart from the 21st century advances in harmony on traditional instruments, which I'd question, what does the Sandman think about the discordant, syncopated & arhythmic destruction of Irish tunes practiced by so many guitarists, bouzoukhi players & such?

Personally and I'd stress it's IMHO I'd MUCH rather listen to a single melody line with a tackety boot accompaniment on any instrument.

How many decent singers and musicians feel the commercial need to form the **** .... BAND' of musicians with little in common with the originator of it all?


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 09:51 AM

There is a feeling, a pressure, when putting a cd together it will appeal to a broader audience when accompaniment is added.

At one point I put together a recoding with an old style concertina player, several people had a quiet word we should add backing. I resisted that. Quite a few other musicians commented once the thing was done what a delight it was to just have ourselves playing away. But to a lot of musicians a recording is a calling card, a means yo an end and they will try appeal to a broader taste.

I hear quite a few recordings of Irish music where accompaniment is run of the mill, not adding anything, as far as I'm concerned.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: meself
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 11:15 AM

Generally speaking, music with accompaniment, so to speak, is more 'accessible' to a general audience. It just is.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 11:54 AM

Perhaps a silly question but how does the music of Turlough O'Carolan fit into this?
I find it to be very much a harmony based music, but would you say it has much to do with ITM?

Robin


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 02 Oct 21 - 12:38 PM

O'Carolan was a harper i n the bardic tradition that died out by the early 19th century. He was also influenced by Germiniani's music. A different thing altogether perhaps.

Last night there was a bit on tellie around Seá O'Riada's 50th anniversary, in it some surviving musicians who were in Ceoltóirí Chualann were interviewed, talking about O'Riada's interest in Carolan's music the comments were (paraphrasing) 'we played that sort of music because he liked it, it was his sort of music' implying it was more the classical sort of thing a man like O'Riada was into.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 03 Oct 21 - 05:22 AM

more about O Riada on the excellent John Bowman archive programme on RTE dadio 1 thia morning at 8.30.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 03 Oct 21 - 08:52 AM

The link to John Bowman's, mentioned by Jim:

John Bowman, Sunday 3 Oct


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Oct 21 - 04:43 PM

what does the Sandman think about the discordant, syncopated & arhythmic destruction of Irish tunes practiced by so many guitarists, bouzoukhi players & such? quote
do you consider my opinions important? I am not sure i am qualified to comment, i tend to listen to specific fiddlers or musicians, none of whom do that kind of sycopated rhytmic destruction of tunes,to use the words of Scotch Bonnet
i do remember that some SOUTHERN English musicians did that kind of thing back in the 80s and 90s, i thought it was UNINSPRING AND PREDICTABLE.
I also thought that some of the brass trombone playing of one or two of those musicians was fairly low grade but perhaps i was spoiled I had a relative NatPeck who was a jazz trombonist who played with among others Dizzy Gillespie AND who had been a member of Glenn Millers band ,
my ex wife Sue Miles was an excellent baas clarinet player, with grade 8 examination pass, who knocked spots off some of the bass brass players of those southern english country dance no reels bands.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 07:26 AM

of course there is no reason why musicians playing southern english music should not borrow ideas as regards ornamentation from irish fiddlers, in my opinion the only thing to remember is to not let the ornamentation interfere with danceabilty


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 12:17 PM

however laudable and deserving anyone is of a Grade 8 music exam pass, WTF has it to do with traditional music?


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 04:36 PM

That depends, having a good technique is important in any music including tradtional, it enables the player to achieve what they want to, having a good technique is not about showing off,., but having the tools to be able express what you want to, to be able to express yourself because you have the technique to control your instrument, the technique to be able to use emphasis and use dynamics to get lift in to the music, a person who has got a grade 8 cert in classical music will have learned how to do that and will have the technique .
if the person has also listened to a lot of trad music as well then they will have a good idea of style and can use their technique to play trad music well of courses musicality is important as well, good technique is a tool to express musicality.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 04:48 PM

Most top irish and English fiddlers have A GOOD TECHNIQUE the technique to express themselves, anybody who seriously thinks that tradtional music does not require good technique is insulting traditional music, THAT DOES NOT MEAN they have had to pass an exam.
but getting grade 8 is not possible without good technique, so it is an indicator of a certain high standard of technique.


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 04:57 PM

here is a track in question and the bass clarinet player, playing the sort of country dance english music that a lot of southern english folk bands played at that time, that is your answer anonymous guest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boqwtu3xPzU


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 03:28 AM

furthermore I learned a lot from listening and playing music with someone who had the technique to express their musicality, i have also learned a lot by listening to musicians with good technique and musicality who were without musical examination passes,
to return to the anonymous guest who said wtf has a grade 8 cert got to do with playing folk music.
I remember a group called PYEWACKETT who i believe had been classically trained musicians, and were very popular on the uk folk scene


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Subject: RE: Question about Irish vs English fiddling
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 05:05 AM

Well I know someone who has Grade 8 in two different instruments. He had the talent to play all the notes in the right order with a good sense of rhythm and tempo but he got there with very little actual enthusiasm. If you spend half the bloody lessons playing up and down scales, that's hardly surprising, is it?


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