Child Ballads - Yiddish versions

Subject: Folklore: Child Ballads - Yiddish versions
From: Felipa
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 06:47 PM

Many ballads of the British Isles codified by Francis Child have versions collected elsewhere in Europe. For instance Child mentioned French and German language variants of "Our Goodman". Yiddish speakers were not so isolated from majority popular culture as you and I may have thought. So since I've come across Our Goodman (Seven Drunken Nights, Dos Daytshl https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=7291 and a version of The Elfin Knight https://yiddishsong.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/yo-yo-di-vilst-performed-by-josh-waletzky/ in Yiddish, I'm wondering what else is out there (the older the better). Any suggestions?

Going beyond the Child Ballads to other widespread traditional/folksongs, there is also The Rattlin' Bog aka The Tree in the Wood aka Funem Sheynem Vortsl Aroys https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=57991 and I'm sure there are more songs in this category to be found in Yiddish language .

Subject: RE: Child Ballads - Yiddish versions
From: Felipa
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 07:25 PM

versions of the Elfin Knight are discussed in pages 82-89 of "The Folk Songs of Ashkenaz", Volume 6
edited by Philip V. Bohlman, Otto Holzapfel
which I saw part of in Google books. Songs selected for this book are mainly those which have variants in both German and Yiddish.

Subject: RE: Child Ballads - Yiddish versions
From: GerryM
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:14 AM

The same Susan McKeown & Lorin Sklamberg CD, Saints & Tzadiks, that has The Rattlin' Bog / Funem Sheynem Vortsl Aroys, also has Yiddish and Scots versions of Child 11, The Cruel Brother. The Yiddish version is titled, Fort a Yidele Fort Aroys, A Young Man Rode Out.

Subject: RE: Child Ballads - Yiddish versions
From: Felipa
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:33 AM

Fort a Yidele, Fort Aroys sheet music, transliteration and translation is published as #28 in Jewish Life: the Old Country by Ruth Rubin. Again, I saw that in Google books so I can't easily reproduce it on Mudcat. I haven't tried yet to compare with the song sung by https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZeUL9Axhwg Voices of Askenaz. They have lyrics set to a tune attributed to Michael Alpert (a contemporary American who was raised in a Yiddish-speaking family)

I see a song in the afore-mentioned Ruth Rubin book which has counterparts in English and German language songs, but which it seems to me could have been derived independently: #53 Tsi Vus Zhe Gibn Dir, Mayn Lib Kind (what will I give you, my dear child -mein leibes kind). A mother and daughter discuss what sort of man the daughter should marry and why life with a cobber, blacksmith, carpenter is hard and life with a doctor is better. Substitute a musician for a doctor, and one could pair this song with the Irish "Ceol an Phíobaire" although in the latter the narration is by the piper himself and there is not a dialogue.

Another mother-daughter conversation is found in "Mame a Kholem" https://yiddishsong.wordpress.com/2018/02/08/mame-a-kholem-mother-sung-by-lifshe-schaechter-widman/
"The motif of the lover who returns as a beggar is as old as Homer’s Odyssey and is found in ballads throughout the world. In this Yiddish ballad version, the former lover is not disguised as a beggar but has indeed become one because of his 'character'.

"I consider this ballad to be one of Lifshe Schaechter-Widman’s [LSW] masterpieces. Not only because it is certainly among the older songs in her repertoire, but because of the deeply emotional way she performs it, concluding with the dramatic last verse in which the woman reveals to her mother who is at the door.

In typical old ballad style, the dialogue prevails: first between mother and daughter, then between daughter and beggar (former lover) and finally, again, between daughter and mother. There is a break in the narrative after the third verse when the dialogue changes and at this point Leybl Kahn, who is recording the song, feels compelled to ask LSW to continue.

"This transition from third to fourth verse is noteworthy. A new plot/scene develops at this point. It leads me to believe that originally there might have been two ballads that were combined to form one.

"Supporting this idea are the awkward transitions between the two scenes in all the versions. We also have examples of separate ballads. Singer/researcher Michael Alpert recorded Fanya Moshinskaya, (born 1915 in Babyi Yar, Kiev), singing a ballad of the first scene – ‘Oy a kholem’. And he has recorded Bronya Sakina (1910 – 1988) from Olvanisk (Holovanivsk/Golovanevsk, Ukraine) singing a ballad – 'Derbaremt aykh'- depicting the beggar/lover scene. Alpert currently sings both of them and sometimes combines them."

Subject: RE: Child Ballads - Yiddish versions
From: Felipa
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 08:36 AM

https://yiddishsong.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/vus-tisti-du-sheyn-meydele-performed-by-beyle-schaechter-gottesman/ Vus Tisti du Sheyn Meydele is similar to Yo Yo Du Vilst cited in the first message of this discussion thread.

Subject: Lyr Add: DU MEYDELE, DU FAYNS
From: Felipa
Date: 26 Aug 23 - 07:10 PM

Du meydele, du fayns follows a typical pattern for riddle songs

https://yiddishsongs.org/du-meydele-du-fayns/
"A variant of the text of this riddle song appeared in the S. Ginzburg-P. Marek collection of 1901; text and melody were published in Ost und West, 1905. This song type of the contest between a maiden and young man is a popular international ballad theme – the oldest type mentioned in the Child Collection of Anglo-Scottish Balladry (Child I). A few of the Yiddish riddles were compared to the English type by compiler in her paper “International Motifs in the Yiddish Ballad” (1964). The German parallels were cited by Alfred Landau in 1903. The Yiddish song contains a Jewish motif in two replies, which is absent from other European parallels–that the 'Torah is deeper than the spring' and 'Mikve-vaser (the water of the ritual bath house) is without a fish.' One version (Mir zingen, Paris, 1948) combines the riddles of this song with those of the popular song 'Tum-balalayke.' In The Jewish Songster, 1929, the song is translated into Hebrew as 'Yaldoh yaldosi.' "

DU MEYDELE, DU FAYNS

Du meydele, du fayns,
Du meydele, du sheyns,
Kh’vel dikh epes fregn
A retenish a kleyns:
Vos iz hekher fun a hoyz?
Vos iz flinker fun a moyz?

Du narisher bokher,
Du narisher trop,
Du host nit keyn seykhl
In dayn kop;
Der roykh iz hekher fun a hoyz,
Di kats iz flinker fun a moyz.

Du meydele, du fayns,
Du meydele, du sheyns,
Kh’vel dikh epes fregn
A retenish a kleyns:
Vos flit on fligl?
Un vos iz gemoyert on tsigl?

Du narisher bokher,
Du narisher trop,
Du host nit keyn seykhl
In dayn kop;
Shney flit dokh on fligl,
Der frost iz gemoyert on tsigl.

??Du meydele, du fayns,
Du maydele, du sheyns,
Kh’vel dikh epes fregn
A retenish a kleyns:
Vos iz royter fun a flam?
Un vos iz getrayer fun a man?

Du, narisher bokher,
Du, narisher trop,
Du host nit keyn seykhl
In dayn kop;
Di fan iz royter fun a flam,
Un a tate iz getrayer fun a man.

TRANSLATION
— You fine girl, you pretty girl, I’ll ask you a question, a little riddle: What is higher than a house? What is quicker than a mouse?

— You foolish young man, you silly fool, you have no sense in your head. Chimney smoke is higher than a house. A cat is quicker than a mouse.

— You fine girl, you pretty girl, I’ll ask you a question, a little riddle: What flies without wings? And what makes walls without bricks?

— You foolish young man, you silly fool – you have no sense in your head. Snow can fly without wings, and frost makes walls without bricks.

— You fine girl, you pretty girl, I’ll ask you a question, a little riddle: What is redder than a fire, and what is more faithful than a husband?

some recordings on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8qUco9PVhk "a performance of the Nashville Early Music Ensemble at the First Presbyterian Church in Columbia, TN on Sunday, February 10, 2008"

sung by Rebecca Wave

Lenka Lichtenberg group with David Wall

Subject: RE: Child Ballads - Yiddish versions
From: Monique
Date: 30 Aug 23 - 06:28 AM

Here are the Yiddish lyrics of "Du meydele, du fayns"

דו מײדעלע, דו פֿײַנס

דו מײדעלע, דו פֿײַנס
דו מײדעלע, דו שײנס,
כ’װעל דיך עפּעס פֿרעגן
אַ רעטעניש אַ קלײנס:
װאָס איז העכער פֿון אַ הױז?
װאָס איז פֿלינקער פֿון אַ מױז?

דו נאַרישער בחור,
דו נאַרישער טראָפֿ,
דו האָסט ניט קײן שׂכל
אין דײַן קאָפֿ;
דער רױך איז העכער פֿון אַ הױז,
די קאַצ איז פֿלינקער פֿון אַ מױז.

די מײדעלע, דו פֿײַנס,
דו מײדעלע, דו שײנס,
כיװעל דיך עפּעס פֿרעגן
א רעטעניש א קלײַנס:
װאָס פֿליט אָן פֿליגל?
און װאָס איז געמױערט אָן ציגל?

דו נאַרישער בחור,
דו נאָרישער טראָפֿ,
דו האָסט ניט קײן שׂכל
אין דײן קאָפֿ;
שנײ פֿליט דאָך אָן פֿליגל,
דער פֿראָסט איז געמױערט אָן ציגל

דו מײדעלע,, דו פֿײַנס,
דו מײדעלע, דו שײנס,
כיװעל דיך עפּעס פֿרעגן
אַ רעטעניש אַ קלײנס:
װאָס איז רױטער פֿון אַ פֿלאָם?
און װאָס איז געטרײַער פֿון אַ מאַן?

דו נאָרישער בחור,
דו נאַרישער טראָפֿ,
דו האָסט ניט קײן שׂכל
אין דײַן קאָפֿ;
די פֿאָן איז רױטער פֿון אַ פֿלאַם,
און אַ טאָטע איז געטרײַער פֿון אַ מאַן.

Subject: RE: Child Ballads - Yiddish versions
From: Felipa
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 12:07 PM

https://yiddishsong.wordpress.com/tag/conversion/:
"When ballads have been presented on the Yiddish Song of the Week we have sometimes emphasized the parallels with other international ballads. This week we present a ballad type that is not to be found internationally, certainly not in the Anglo-British-American tradition – a ballad that describes the conversion of a child to the Christian faith; a shmad-ballad. The verb shmadn in Yiddish means to convert to Christianity."

You'll find two related songs on the page, conversations between a parent and a daughter, with the parent offering clothes, a dowry, a good Jewish husband to the daughter if she will return to the faith of her family.

Subject: RE: Child Ballads - Yiddish versions
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 02:12 PM

Felipa wrote:

This week we present a ballad type that is not to be found internationally, certainly not in the Anglo-British-American tradition – a ballad that describes the conversion of a child to the Christian faith; a shmad-ballad.

This is correct in detail but not entirely true in broader context. There are Child ballads of religious conversions -- "Young Beichan/Lord Bateman" being the most obvious. (Though there is an interesting footnote to that one in that the woman in that song is often named Sophia -- Σοφια, the Greek word for wisdom; an entirely Christian name; I wonder if the girl didn't have a Christian mother.) And there are non-Child ballads of conversion to Christianity, though too often in the face of force (e.g. Silver Jack [Laws C24]). There are also songs of refusing to convert (e.g. The Romish Lady [Laws Q32]). So the concept is common; the problem is that Jewish folk songs are a bit thin on the ground. It's a little depressing to realize that Ruth Rubin's books don't seem to have anything on the topic.

Subject: Lyr Add: DU MEYDELE, DU FAYNS
From: Felipa
Date: 26 Aug 23 - 07:10 PM

Du meydele, du fayns follows a typical pattern for riddle songs

https://yiddishsongs.org/du-meydele-du-fayns/
"A variant of the text of this riddle song appeared in the S. Ginzburg-P. Marek collection of 1901; text and melody were published in Ost und West, 1905. This song type of the contest between a maiden and young man is a popular international ballad theme – the oldest type mentioned in the Child Collection of Anglo-Scottish Balladry (Child I). A few of the Yiddish riddles were compared to the English type by compiler in her paper “International Motifs in the Yiddish Ballad” (1964). The German parallels were cited by Alfred Landau in 1903. The Yiddish song contains a Jewish motif in two replies, which is absent from other European parallels–that the 'Torah is deeper than the spring' and 'Mikve-vaser (the water of the ritual bath house) is without a fish.' One version (Mir zingen, Paris, 1948) combines the riddles of this song with those of the popular song 'Tum-balalayke.' In The Jewish Songster, 1929, the song is translated into Hebrew as 'Yaldoh yaldosi.' "

DU MEYDELE, DU FAYNS

Du meydele, du fayns,
Du meydele, du sheyns,
Kh’vel dikh epes fregn
A retenish a kleyns:
Vos iz hekher fun a hoyz?
Vos iz flinker fun a moyz?

Du narisher bokher,
Du narisher trop,
Du host nit keyn seykhl
In dayn kop;
Der roykh iz hekher fun a hoyz,
Di kats iz flinker fun a moyz.

Du meydele, du fayns,
Du meydele, du sheyns,
Kh’vel dikh epes fregn
A retenish a kleyns:
Vos flit on fligl?
Un vos iz gemoyert on tsigl?

Du narisher bokher,
Du narisher trop,
Du host nit keyn seykhl
In dayn kop;
Shney flit dokh on fligl,
Der frost iz gemoyert on tsigl.

??Du meydele, du fayns,
Du maydele, du sheyns,
Kh’vel dikh epes fregn
A retenish a kleyns:
Vos iz royter fun a flam?
Un vos iz getrayer fun a man?

Du, narisher bokher,
Du, narisher trop,
Du host nit keyn seykhl
In dayn kop;
Di fan iz royter fun a flam,
Un a tate iz getrayer fun a man.

TRANSLATION
— You fine girl, you pretty girl, I’ll ask you a question, a little riddle: What is higher than a house? What is quicker than a mouse?

— You foolish young man, you silly fool, you have no sense in your head. Chimney smoke is higher than a house. A cat is quicker than a mouse.

— You fine girl, you pretty girl, I’ll ask you a question, a little riddle: What flies without wings? And what makes walls without bricks?

— You foolish young man, you silly fool – you have no sense in your head. Snow can fly without wings, and frost makes walls without bricks.

— You fine girl, you pretty girl, I’ll ask you a question, a little riddle: What is redder than a fire, and what is more faithful than a husband?

some recordings on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8qUco9PVhk "a performance of the Nashville Early Music Ensemble at the First Presbyterian Church in Columbia, TN on Sunday, February 10, 2008"

sung by Rebecca Wave

Lenka Lichtenberg group with David Wall

Subject: RE: Child Ballads - Yiddish versions
From: Monique
Date: 30 Aug 23 - 06:28 AM

Here are the Yiddish lyrics of "Du meydele, du fayns"

דו מײדעלע, דו פֿײַנס

דו מײדעלע, דו פֿײַנס
דו מײדעלע, דו שײנס,
כ’װעל דיך עפּעס פֿרעגן
אַ רעטעניש אַ קלײנס:
װאָס איז העכער פֿון אַ הױז?
װאָס איז פֿלינקער פֿון אַ מױז?

דו נאַרישער בחור,
דו נאַרישער טראָפֿ,
דו האָסט ניט קײן שׂכל
אין דײַן קאָפֿ;
דער רױך איז העכער פֿון אַ הױז,
די קאַצ איז פֿלינקער פֿון אַ מױז.

די מײדעלע, דו פֿײַנס,
דו מײדעלע, דו שײנס,
כיװעל דיך עפּעס פֿרעגן
א רעטעניש א קלײַנס:
װאָס פֿליט אָן פֿליגל?
און װאָס איז געמױערט אָן ציגל?

דו נאַרישער בחור,
דו נאָרישער טראָפֿ,
דו האָסט ניט קײן שׂכל
אין דײן קאָפֿ;
שנײ פֿליט דאָך אָן פֿליגל,
דער פֿראָסט איז געמױערט אָן ציגל

דו מײדעלע,, דו פֿײַנס,
דו מײדעלע, דו שײנס,
כיװעל דיך עפּעס פֿרעגן
אַ רעטעניש אַ קלײנס:
װאָס איז רױטער פֿון אַ פֿלאָם?
און װאָס איז געטרײַער פֿון אַ מאַן?

דו נאָרישער בחור,
דו נאַרישער טראָפֿ,
דו האָסט ניט קײן שׂכל
אין דײַן קאָפֿ;
די פֿאָן איז רױטער פֿון אַ פֿלאַם,
און אַ טאָטע איז געטרײַער פֿון אַ מאַן.

Subject: RE: Child Ballads - Yiddish versions
From: Felipa
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 12:07 PM

https://yiddishsong.wordpress.com/tag/conversion/:
"When ballads have been presented on the Yiddish Song of the Week we have sometimes emphasized the parallels with other international ballads. This week we present a ballad type that is not to be found internationally, certainly not in the Anglo-British-American tradition – a ballad that describes the conversion of a child to the Christian faith; a shmad-ballad. The verb shmadn in Yiddish means to convert to Christianity."

You'll find two related songs on the page, conversations between a parent and a daughter, with the parent offering clothes, a dowry, a good Jewish husband to the daughter if she will return to the faith of her family.

Subject: RE: Child Ballads - Yiddish versions
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 02:12 PM

Felipa wrote:

This week we present a ballad type that is not to be found internationally, certainly not in the Anglo-British-American tradition – a ballad that describes the conversion of a child to the Christian faith; a shmad-ballad.

This is correct in detail but not entirely true in broader context. There are Child ballads of religious conversions -- "Young Beichan/Lord Bateman" being the most obvious. (Though there is an interesting footnote to that one in that the woman in that song is often named Sophia -- Σοφια, the Greek word for wisdom; an entirely Christian name; I wonder if the girl didn't have a Christian mother.) And there are non-Child ballads of conversion to Christianity, though too often in the face of force (e.g. Silver Jack [Laws C24]). There are also songs of refusing to convert (e.g. The Romish Lady [Laws Q32]). So the concept is common; the problem is that Jewish folk songs are a bit thin on the ground. It's a little depressing to realize that Ruth Rubin's books don't seem to have anything on the topic.