Is folk a dirty four-letter word?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 03:25 PM

And once again, Dick, well done for not decrying anyone else's tastes. That is as it should be. Perform your stuff. Let others perform theirs in peace. Live and let live. That is what you are doing isn't it? I am complimenting you on that attitude not arguing about it!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:51 PM

Very sensible post as ever from Brian. Who plays mainly traditional but can turn his hand to Sponge Bob shanties :-)

So his Wikipedia entry says!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:42 PM

So, When i sing in a Folk Club, I have to think about two sets. balance of tempo, subject matter,each set, has a beginning a middle and an end,
Because of the structure of the evening and possibly what others have sung. I can only sing some of my favourite songs
. if i was to sing all my favorite folk songs in a folk club.because of how folk clubs have changed in the last 50 years, I do not think i would get rebooked, that is because folk clubs have moved towards anything acoustic goes, and tradtional music has become less popular in folk clubs than it was 50 years ago
FolkClubs are not as busy as 50 years ago, maybe that is a coincidence, or is it some other reason.
I do know that in 1969 folk clubs were very busy and a lot more trad songs were sung than is the case now.
people can draw whatever conclusions they want from that

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:37 PM

Sorry Dave

Decrying

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:26 PM

what does decrieng mean ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:20 PM

Walter valued some songs above others let me quote from a conversation jim carroll had with Walter.
JC If you had the choice, Walter if somebody said to you one night they were going to ask you to sing say half a dozen or a dozen songs say, even of all your songs that you sing what would be your choice can you think offhand what you would choose to sing.
WP The Pretty Ploughboy, Rambling Blade would be another, Van Diemans Land. Let The Wind blow high or low ,Broomfeld Hill The Trees They Grow High, thatd be six.
no one mentioned anything about decrieng, other than Dave Polshaw.
both of us
Walter Pardon and Dick Miles are talking about songs we prefer or choose to sing as favourites we were not talking about anyth9ng else in that context, Folk clubs or decrieng non trad songs,, we are talking about the songs we most enjoy singing for orselves
performing in a Folk Club is a different subject, stop muddying the waters.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:15 PM

We've got a bit sidetracked here into the question of what is and is not acceptable in a folk club, which isn't really what Colin Randall was talking about.

The debate about the word 'Folk' has been going on since I got involved with this music forty years ago, and probably long before that. At various times the term has been pronounced terminally off-putting to potential audiences outside the magic circle, so less baggage-laden alternatives like 'Roots', 'Acoustic', 'Open Mike', etc. have been proposed. Many of us (of a particular persuasion) preferred 'Traditional' to 'Folk' all along. But then every so often - most recently 10-15 years ago - our cultural influencers start telling us that 'folk is cool again' and we all get excited. Now Colin reports that it's out of vogue once more. Well, whatever - fashions change, and it's always been a niche taste anyway.

'Folk' has been a deeply ambiguous term at least since it was applied for marketing purposes to American singer / song-writers of the Dylan / Paxton era, as opposed to its former meaning of old songs passed down traditionally amongst the rural working class. In more recent times, the record industry has regularly applied the term to any act featuring an acoustic instrument or two. So, is 'folk' to be defined by its musical characteristics, by the style in which it's performed, by the method through which it's transmitted, or by the kind of venue in which it's presented? There's never been a consensus on that, but performers and venues alike will still need some kind of label that signals broadly what kind of music is to be expected.

The reasons different people give for being put off by 'folk' are sometimes contradictory: for some, the word conjures up red-faced heartiness; to others it spells fey and wifty-wafty. The folk club itself will, for some, mean a church-like atmosphere in which any outward signs of enjoyment are frowned upon; for others, a safe space in which audiences actually listen. More to the point, 'folk' is surely seen by many young people as something that the old folks do. That hasn't stopped some really talented young musicians getting wildly enthused by it (often though not always through childhood exposure from parents), but even they are very conscious of the ageing demographic sat in front of them. I propose no remedies, other than the often-discussed hope that more young people will take up the mantle of organising the kind of venues - not necessarily 'clubs' of course - where folk music (or whatever it's called) can be enjoyed in years to come.

As an aside, Walter Pardon did of course sing more than a few Music Hall songs, though according to Jim Carroll (who knew him and interviewed him at length) he drew an aesthetic distinction between those and the older songs in his repertoire.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:13 PM

That is absolutely fine, Dick, and I'm sure that you would not look down on anyone singing non traditional folk songs. I do not know why you feel the need to substantiate your opinion with that of Walter Pardon but, from what I have heard, I am pretty sure he would not have decried anyone singing non traditional songs either. Folk is a very broad church and many different songs and singers can be accommodated.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 12:56 PM

The songs that i value and enjoy singing the most are the Traditional ones.
I think it is a similar opinion to that of Walter Pardon

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 11:47 AM

Dick, it was 2019 when you included it in your performance at the club I saw you at.If it was requested I don't remember you saying it was,which means either it was requested because someone knew you did sing it or you chose to perform it.which ever, it was as well received as your traditional songs.As others have said about material that is considered non folk songs or tunes if they are performed well most people will
enjoy them just as much.Life has good and bad bits for everyone,no two people have the same tastes.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 10:56 AM

When people ask me what kind of music i perfom i say Folk, Iam proud of my music, for me folk is not a dirty word

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:31 AM

This will seldom be entirely traditional songs, quote
over 90 percent of his repertoire has been tradtional songs on the last 3 occasions,i have booked him.
so the majority of his repertoire is tradtional, that is what he is known for performing.
I do not want to hear, my baby has gone down the plug hole, Although there is a clip of him doing that on you tube.
guest charles,[john charles?] tried to trip me up, by recalling, that a long time ago i sang Nicotine Girl, however it is not typical of my repertoire anymore than Rave On or" My baby has gone dpwn the plug" is typical of Mrtin Carthy

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 08:26 AM

If I go to see Martin Carthy I expect to hear whatever he chooses to perform. This will seldom be entirely traditional songs, and he has been known to go well off-piste at times. I can't recall if I have seen him perform "Rave On", but it has certainly been in his repertoire.

I would not expect to visit any club and find that everything performed was to my taste. That does not mean it should not be performed. If a particular club's style were too far removed from my own preferences I would stop going, but that does not mean it should not be called a folk club.

My own preference is for traditional folk, but I have heard and enjoyed much in folk clubs which was not traditional, but neither did it feel out of place. My life has been enriched by that, as much as it has by "proper" folk.

I've had to sit through stuff I didn't enjoy, but that's a price you pay. The only way to ensure you hear only what you enjoy is either to run your own folk club in a particularly dictatorial way, or stay at home with your own playlists.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 07:57 AM

guest, charles, must have been about 2011. 10 years ago, possibly kiveton park. 10 years ago i sang a song as a request, not typical of my general repertoire.
Dave, yes, the mainstream media do mock it.
EFDSS is also underfunded compared to CCE.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 07:43 AM

This is the main bone of contention, Charles. I think that the traditional meaning of folk is pretty much accepted. It is when we get to what goes on around the edges that there arguments start. I have no idea if Nicotine Gal is an acceptable song at a folk club. Not my cup of tea but performed well it is witty and I would be happy with it. What about John Denver stuff? What about a folk club performer doing "Superstition" in a folk or blues style? What about Les Barker parodies? A lot of this is down to personal taste, regardless of how good (or bad!) it is. One thing I am with Dick on is that there are floor singers who should not be performing when people have paid to see a professional or semi-pro guest. At out club we accepted that some stuff on singers nights was an excuse to go to the bar ;-) That should not happen on guest nights.

So, back to the original question. Is folk a dirty four letter word because of poor performances at clubs? Maybe. Is it a dirty four letter word because the mainstream media mock (particulary) English traditions? Partly. Is it because there are too many introspective singer/songwriters? Could be. All the factors are in play and many more besides. My feeling is to ignore those who mock and just enjoy what I like :-)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 07:21 AM

must have been many years ago,9 years?kiveton park? i cannot even remember it. now.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 06:57 AM

If it was requested yes,I don't recall you saying it was a request.
I'll rephrase that slightly,
If was a request of course you should have sung it. ,I don't recall you saying it was requested.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 06:47 AM

Guest, Charles that song was a request,
It is however a well written song, that i consider a contemporary folk song[ just my opinion]SHOULD I HAVE NOT SANG IT AS IT WAS REQUESTED

Ah I think I get the idea,it is OK to sing a a song if You consider it to be a contemporary folk song,but not songs Dave thinks are contemporary folk songs.

SHOULD I HAVE NOT SANG IT AS IT WAS REQUESTED (No need to shout, I'm not deaf)
If it was requested yes,I don't recall you saying it was a request.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 06:01 AM

Guest, Charles that song was a request,
It is however a well written song, that i consider a contemporary folk song[ just my opinion] SHOULD I HAVE NOT SANG IT AS IT WAS REQUESTED
Ihad a gal, a rare nice gal, down in Wroxham way
She were whooly nice ter me in the ole school days.
She would smile all the while, but Daddy dint know all
What she used ter say ter me behind the garden wall.
'Hev yew gotta loight, boy? hev yew gotta loight, boy?'
Molly Windley, she smook like a chimley,
But she's my little nicoteen gal.

Then one day, she went away, I dunt see har no more,
Till by chance, I see har down along th' Mundesley shore.
She wuz there, twice as fair, would she now be trew?
So when she see me passin' by she say 'I'm glad thass yew,
Hev yew gotta loight, boy? hev yew gotta loight?'
Molly Windley, she smook like a chimley,
But she's my little nicoteen gal.

Now yew'll see har an' me never more t'part,
We would wander hand in hand tergether in the dark.
Then one night I held har tight in th' ole back yard,
But when I tried to hold har close, she say 'Now hold yew hard!
Hev yew gotta loight, boy? hev yew gotta loight?
Molly Windley, she smook like a chimley,
But she's my little nicoteen gal.

By and by we decide on th' weddin' day,
So we toddle orff ter chatch ter hear the preacher say:
'Do yew now tearke this vow ter honour all the time?'
Afore I had th'chance ter stop har, she begin ter pine:
Hev yew gotta loight, boy? hev yew gotta loight?
Molly Windley, she smook like a chimley,
But she's my little nicoteen gal.

Now the doctor tell me a Daddy I will be,
So when I arsk him 'Woss th' score?' he say 'There's only three'
So, here I go, cheerioo, ter see how she do fare,
I know what she will say ter me as soon as I git there:
Hev yew gotta loight, boy? hev yew gotta loight?
Molly Windley, she smook like a chimley,
But she's my little nicoteen gal.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:58 AM

The ridiculous statement is "you were running a club and assumed that everyone wants to hear buddy holly". End of story.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:49 AM

Dave, it is not a ridiculous statement to expect jazz in a jazz club country and western in a country club, if i pay to go to a folk club i go expecting to hear what has been advertised., if it is Martin Carthy, i do not want to hear him sing Rave On, I WANT TO HEAR HIM PERFORM TRAD MATERIAL
if i am being paid to perform ,i have to listen to everything, that is part of the job. Ido not critices what other people do ,but i reserve the right to pick and choose what music i wish to listen to,
i could guarantee in 1970, that if i went to a singers night the standrd would be high and nobody sang buddy holly songs, they sang what are generally classfied as folk songs, the standrd was higher and the venues were packed.
is it coincidence that clubs are emptier now, is it because of anything goes material? or is it because some singers do not practise? i do not know neither do you. what i do know ,is that these days i would be selective before i visited a folk club .
in 1970, i could guarantee going to for example farnigham folk club on a singers night or the fighting cocks in kingston and the standrd was high regardless of booked guest.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Charles
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:37 AM

not ruining folk music but ruining the enjoyment of someone who wishes to hear folk music, it maybe a competently perfomed version of rave on, but if the audience member went to hear willy of the winesbury, he she might have had a ruined evening.
you were running a club and assumed that everyone wants to hear buddy holly, it is rather like advertising martin carthy and you substitute him with andy caven. a good way to piss off your audience.[ andy caven performed buddy holly songs well] but that is not what most people had come expecting
Says the man who happily included My little nicotine gal in his set at the Folk Club I go to.
By the way it is polite to use capital letters when writing peoples names

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:28 AM

Dick, it is because of ridiculous statements like you were running a club and assumed that everyone wants to hear buddy holly that I no longer interact with you but let us clear up that point. I have never assumed anyone likes anything. I only know what I like. If I go to a concert, I expect the concert artist(s) to perform what they are best at. If I go to a session, I like to hear competently performed music. If I go to a singaround I usually hear a good mix of styles and standards. Some I like, some I don't but overall I enjoy myself and try not to criticise what other people do.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:11 AM

dave the gnome , no,
not ruining folk music but ruining the enjoyment of someone who wishes to hear folk music, it maybe a competently perfomed version of rave on, but if the audience member went to hear willy of the winesbury, he she might have had a ruined evening.
you were running a club and assumed that everyone wants to hear buddy holly, it is rather like advertising martin carthy and you substitute him with andy caven. a good way to piss off your audience.[ andy caven performed buddy holly songs well] but that is not what most people had come expecting

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:01 AM

blues only becomes jazz when the 12 bar structure is improvised on

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:01 AM

folk blues, is not jazz it is folk music,, american folk music,
folk rock is a misnomer it is folk music performed generally with amplification, it bears little resmblance to rock and roll, and uses folk music as its material therefore it is amplified folk music

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 04:57 AM

musical genres inter weave?,
the only example i can think of is jazz, which as i understand is defined by improvisation. so jazz and classical music only interweave if there is improvisation specified in the classical composition.
it could be argued that some folk instrumental music becomes jazz when spontaneous variations are played[ i do not mean northumbrian pipe notated variations which are not spontaneous but written out]
one, might possibly hear miss mcleods reel at RoNnie Scotts Jazz club if it was improvised upon. because someone sings Rave On in a folk club, it does not become Jazz UNLESS IT INVOLVES SPONTANEOUS IMPRVISATION,neither does it suddenly become folk, it is Generally classified as a fifties hit written by buddy holly... rock and roll
       "Rave On", also written "Rave On!", is a song written by Sonny West, Bill Tilghman and Norman Petty in 1958. It was first recorded by West for Atlantic Records, which released his version in February 1958 (as Atlantic 45-1174).[1] Buddy Holly recorded the song later the same year, and his version became a hit, one of six of his recordings that charted in 1958. Holly is instantly recognizable as the artist: the record begins with a drawn-out "Well…" as stylized by Holly's distinctive hiccup ("A-weh-uh-heh-uh-ell…"). quote wiki
feck all to do with folk music

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 04:55 AM

The ruining folk music comment was in relation to allowing music that some considered to be non-folk to be played at our folk club.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 04:52 AM

Fusion Nick - Think of Jazz Blues, Folk Blues, Folk Rock, East/West. The possibilities are endless! Maybe confusing rather than fusing :-D

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 04:01 AM

When I sing at a Maritime song festival, i expect other perfomers to be singing Maritime songs not Rave On.
I have not accused you of anything, I have heard you sing and i would give you a floor spotif i was running a club
I dont think you ruin music when you perform, i have heard better and also a lot worse

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 03:57 AM

How do musical genres interweave?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 03:24 AM

Thanks again, Allan and apologies for misspelling your name earlier. Yes, I realise that you were not suggesting that changed lyrics became folk. I was asking the question to point out once again the blurred lines. Our club was pretty much like yours although we had more paid guests.

Good point made by Reggie too. Music and genres change. I would add that they also interweave. If we try to define something rigidly there will always be exceptions and we end up with too many sub-genres. I, for one, enjoy diversity. Because I have welcomed change I have been accused of ruining folk music. Well, if I have, I apologise. But I have gained, and given I think, a great deal of pleasure through it :-)

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:54 AM

steve shaw,
when i go to trad music sessions, like all the other people there we play trad instrumental music, there are so many good tunes to play that nobody wants to plays yellow submarine, it is not about being elitist its about knowing what we have gone to play.
people can play yellow submarine plenty of other places ,they can play tiptoe through the tulips in plenty of places.
if you want to play that stuff in a listening club environment go and start your own acoustic music club.
people who have not practised have driven more people out of folk clubs in my opinion than anything else, no one minds beginners who show improvement, it is this idea that it is acceptable to continue to insult audiences by not bothering to have practised material, and that audiences are happy to listen to anything in a folk club.
if you want to play buddy holly, fine go and start an acoustic music club or a rock and roll club.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: PHJim
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 12:39 AM

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Malcolm Storey - PM
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 12:59 PM

Leadbelly said he had never heard a horse sing when asked a similar question.

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Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 03:28 PM

no, not lead belly,louis armstrong.
rubbish. anyway, of courses. horses sing.

******************************************************************
I have seen this attributed to Big Bill Broonzy:
"All songs is folk songs. I ain't never heard no horse sing 'em," in a Sing Out! magazine from the sixties.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: reggie miles
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 10:45 PM

In the 1960s, some of the artists that have been sighted as having a role in the beginnings of what we generally recognize as the Blues genre were being introduced to audiences of the day. The advertising for these artists and their music wanted to reference the fact that these players were using acoustic guitars, not the newly popular electric guitars gaining attention in the contemporary music scene. I think that's why the phrase Folk Blues was used to describe their music. Many of the songs they played and sang very likely had roots in the oral traditions that were a part of the culture in the early 1900s, when they first began to explore their musical paths. Which was the way most music found its way to folks before the popularity of recorded forms.

I have no oral tradition of influence, as they did. But I always liked the phrase Folk Blues and thought it was a good description of their unique approach to sharing their music. Many of those artists had a primitive feel to their playing and singing style. Some even accompanied their songs with primitively self-built instruments, that today are considered Folk instruments. It was that primitive (anyone can do this) aspect of their approach to sharing their music that first attracted me to explore more of what they singing and playing.

I am not going to attempt to offer any definitive answer as to what Folk music is or isn't. In this fast paced world we now reside in, genres defining some aspect of musical styles are being invented and adapted so quickly, that I have no earthly idea about what the majority of them even refer to. I am shocked that some players are allowed to expand the definitions of their musical styles with strange new terms and that those genre names have become universally accepted almost overnight. Meanwhile, older genre terms, like Blues, or Folk struggle to even find a place among the flood of newly invented genres. I may be the only person even using the now defunct phrase Folk Blues to describe my own efforts.

I recently released a few songs to streaming outlets in the digital multiverse. As I was filling out the needed information regarding my songs, the drop down menu asked me to describe my music from among the many choices they offered and yet, they offered no means to add my own description. I felt cheated out of the opportunity to do as so many other artists have been granted permission to do with their music, invent my own terms to describe what I've been sharing.

I think that given the many and varied aspects of Folk music represented in just this thread alone, we should not be afraid of doing as other contemporary artists have done. We should have fun with our descriptions and invent new terms to define what is obviously an ever changing body of musical expression. Because, though we may yearn to put music in a box and restrict its characteristics with genre terms, describing instrumentation, singing and playing styles, cultural origins, oral traditions... all of those efforts are vain and utter folly. Music is, by nature, ever changing. It morphs with each new soul that travels the path to its discovery and expression. Music cannot be contained by any feeble means we possess. Like life itself, it breaks through any artificial boundaries we might build. It only ever longs to be free.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 07:18 PM

No one changes pop song lyrics!

So who's Alice?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 06:54 PM

I kind of agree with Dave too re the genres. I like a wide variety of music from most types of popular/rock music to jazz to classical to ambient to folk etc. I don't really get the division thing. Though we don't restrict our club anyway. We are called Kelso Folk & Live Music club and welcome all genres as long as it is live. Though the paid artists we bring tend to be pretty exclusively from the folk world. But in normal times we have 50 singers nights per year and performers can do what they want. Some of it is folk but plenty is not.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 06:42 PM

David I wasn't suggesting by changing the words of a pop song it becomes a folk song. So wasn't going there really. Was just pointing out that the statement "people don't change the words of pop songs" doesn't really hold up. Sometimes some people do.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 06:15 PM

Besides that if we start putting some bugger in charge of quality control - most of us would never get a play.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 06:12 PM

Folk or folk clubs?
In folk it's the words that are dirty.
In clubs it's the loo.
Dictionary definitions don't need to make rent.
Clubs on the other hand do.

Consumers everywhere have choices. Folk is one choice but relevance isn't mandatory. One need not dislike a folk artist or venue to prefer the jazz or classical alternatives. On the other hand, the ladies may hate your eyebrows with a burning passion. If someone tells you they've got it all figured out, fuggedaboudit.

'Folk clubs' are mostly a British Isles thing. Commercial venue owners everywhere are typically more flexible about their A&R. The old Village Vanguard in New York booked a novelty; folk and jazz act on one playbill.

Not knowing what to expect was part of the entertainment... aka fun.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 06:12 PM

these conversations have become something of a tradition.

I think maybe we just don't understand each other's point of view. I can't see much profit in attacking the point of view of someone who is sincere and happily productive from the perspective he seems to enjoy. Particularly as we get older and there is still so much we want to do before the park closes.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 06:04 PM

That's it, Dave.

By the way, I've played and sung Yellow Submarine many times on my acoustic harmonica with my son on his acoustic geetar. Gawd knows whether we'd changed the words, but our five-year-old loved it. I seem to recall once morphing into it in our pub session very many moons ago. You can be po-faced about music or you can have fun. I could get po-faced about a Freddie And The Dreamers minor hit, otherwise I say it's all good...

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 05:36 PM

I went to a concert to see Fishermans Friends and saw them
I went to a concert to see Joe Brown and saw him
I went to a folk club and heard both sea shanties and acoustic 50s covers

I enjoyed them all in different ways and none of them judged me for liking the others. That's probably both the beauty of folk and why some think it's a four letter word. Its inclusivety.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 05:24 PM

You're being a bit elitist about something that isn't elite, Dick...

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 05:02 PM

I think Jim Carroll was right, when folk clubs had good resident singers and people sang folk songs in folk clubs, audience turned up in droves on singers nights, and on guest nights partly because the standard was high and partly because the knew approximately what they were getting.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 04:59 PM

what a load of bullshit.
the penguin book of english folksongs contains folk songs not yesterday or yellow submarine or buddy holly.
if people want to sing buddy holly songs in an acoustic manner why not be honest and call it an acoustic music club, if you want to sing jazz call it a jazz club, if you want to sing bluebeat call it a bluebeat club.
if you want to sing unaccompanied only, call it an unaccompanied singing club, if its an instrumental session call it that.
if people do not know what to expect they will not turn up
if Martin Carthy is advertised you do not expect   Johnny Rotten, or Garth Brooks

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 04:21 PM

"A folk song is what’s wrong and how to fix it."

There you go. A mighty definition from Woody!

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 03:25 PM

Thanks Alan. Do the changed lyrics become part of the folk process if they become regularly accepted by your (presumably folk) audience?

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 03:06 PM

People do change lyrics of pop songs all the time. From a basically rewriting of the words for example Puff Daddy's "I'll Be Wanting You" which is "Every Breath You Take" - to less comprehensive changes for example Sinatra's take on "Mrs Robinson". More personally I do a Scots language take on "Don't Think Twice It's Alright" which involved a fair bit of word changing too. I also do Clapton's "Wonderful Tonight" with the last verse altered. I don't think it is that uncommon. Another example is Kirsty McCall's version of "New England" which is slightly different and has an extra verse.

Subject: RE: Is folk a dirty four-letter word?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 02:01 PM

Just going on from the changed lyric thing, a folk club I was heavily involved with had a lot of Manchester City fans who loved it when "Nancy Whisky" led into a "Blue Moon" section. As far as I know it was a 'tradition' in that club only. In addition, a good friend who we see regularly substitutes "Living Doll" in the song of the same name with "Blow up Doll" followed by hissing noises. Yes, childish I know but still gets a laugh and, again, as far as I know it has been done for so long it could well be a tradition in itself! :-) (tongue in cheek but poses the question about turning a pop song into a local tradition. Maybe!)