EFDSS proposed name change

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 14 Oct 22 - 02:13 AM

Looking at fb posts on this subject I wonder whether the whole of the Mission state aims and objectives of EFDSS should be revisited to consider the inclusion of other countries within and out with England that is customs and songs performed in England that are imported with immigrants and are now part of the customs traditional calendar

Irish dances seem to be one example and of course many songs known as "Irish" are not really Irish? ~ the Gaelic and Irish songs is a grey area

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 13 Oct 22 - 07:39 PM

I still await responses from either the treasurer or the chairperson - or their mouthpiece!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not holding my breath.
The whole thing stinks.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Oct 22 - 01:58 AM

As i say in fb

Folk dance and song society in Britain

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Oct 22 - 07:52 PM

It's like déjà vu all over again. The Living Tradition: The EFDSS - A Future, by Roger Marriott, 1998

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 22 - 04:41 PM

in 1986, JimLloyd wrote an article called the way ahead , a future for the EFDSS,Amongst other things he wrote"the words should include of England rather than English, to take account of the increasing importance of multi cultured folk activities"

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Peter Cripps
Date: 15 Sep 22 - 07:06 AM

To back up Derek's point about membership, during the 10 years or so that the EFDSS Board published the minutes of meetings, there was not one single discussion about membership and recruiting new members!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 15 Sep 22 - 05:32 AM

Why not wait until they change the name then start a new society called The English Folk Song and Dance Society (or some such) then run it like eveyone here thinks it should be run, doing all the things you think should be done, and take it in the direction you choose?

I suggest you take cover when the rush to stand for office starts.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 22 - 05:21 AM

More like the current management need replacing, but how would you go about that ? Easier said than done, mind you, Boris got shifted, but then it comes down to what/who do you replace them with ?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 22 - 03:53 AM

I feel sadness about the direction EFDSS seem to be taking, it reminds me of the phrase in a song "one day none will walk there at all". the management need a kick up the back side

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 08:03 PM

...not allowed to communicate with members.

I've already said I'm no fan of EFDSS but, here I go again defending them. First thing I used to tell every client… s-t-f-U!

Most of the time, it's against some (by)law or regulation somewhere. It's not the talking… it's every other stakeholder not being able to listen in on the conversation. There is no privacy.
U.S. Federal: Government in the Sunshine Act

Too, the untrained, uneducated, self-appointed public information officer can be remarkably stoopid when it comes to “notifying the next of kin” and “proper authorities” in the proper sequence.


RE: EFDSS in particular. Remedial: Environmental, social, and corporate governance

But that's long since decided. We've already moved on to: Diversity, equity, and inclusion

Now go read that one so-called 'opposing viewpoint' again. I'm guessing the average 'trained' EFDSS board member would consider the average Mudcatter to be most of the problem and no part of the solution.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 07:36 PM

Precisely guest!
It would appear that the lunatics are running the asylum - or at the very least the paid staff and not the trustees.
There seems to be a certain lack of fibre within the trustees or are they just innocents abroad?
One wonders how the Charity Commissioners would view this?
I suppose I might be accused of being conversely biased by agreeing with MichaeKM's comments.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,MichaelKM
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 07:03 PM

If I knew nothing about any of this and came across a society called Folk Arts England, I would immediately assume that it was to do with the visual arts and that it supported artists like the English equivalent of Grandma Moses. I would not associate it with folk music or dance at all.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 05:06 PM

"not allowed to communicate with members". !!!!! Who is the almighty being who tells the treasurer and chair of any organisation this ? Why would anyone wish to be a member of such an organisation ?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 05:35 AM

Members? Why do we need members?
It's all smoke & mirrors Derek.
In recent times I have written to both the Treasurer & the Chair - but it appears they are not allowed to communicate with members.
So who is in charge of this member based society???

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 04:38 AM

Malcolm ... I cannot remember the last time there was any active attempt to recruit new members... certainly not since 2006 when I started to edit EDS.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 13 Sep 22 - 06:44 PM

At the time I joined the Society they were pushing for a target of 10,000 members - how are the mighty fallen!?
An analysis of the accounts would probably show that annual income from members (ie not life members) is a relatively small part of the total.
There are several main reasons for the fall off of member commitment - most of which where fire sale responses to pull up the drawbridge to protect the London centralism.
The Society does not exist outside of London and not even for the average Londoner.
Incidentally I was extremely supportive of retaining Cecil Sharp house when its abandonment was being urged - but that was mainly on the basis of accessibility to library etc. London is still the easiest place in England to get to - especially by public transport.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 22 - 05:22 AM

Agreed Derek. However there is pressure on all publicly-funded bodies (not just in the arts) to increase diversity. It is up to the organisations themselves how they do this. Whilst the intention is laudable, the reasons for exclusion are often complex and sometimes lie within the communities themselves.

All the organisations can do is try to be welcoming to all. Perhaps the name plays a part in this. However whatever EFDSS chooses to call itself, sooner or later those individuals who engage with it will have to face the fact that it is concerned principally with English music. Surely that is the point, not the name of an organisation which claims to represent it (although with an individual membership of only around 2200 it seems to have very little authority for that claim).

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 13 Sep 22 - 04:46 AM

Regarding the word English ... a recently formed organisation, English Folk Expo, has included the word English in its title and is funded by the Arts Council, the Arts Council Lottery Funds, Greater Manchester Combined Authority, PRS etc etc.... evidently, the funders see no issue with the word, and if it was seen to exclude people, surely they would have adopted a different name.
Derek

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Sep 22 - 04:34 AM

Yes, the EDS article is appallingly partisan and unbalanced. In small print it acknowledges that "the only conclusion we can confidently draw [from the consultation] is that there is no consensus". It then devotes the rest of the page to entirely favourable comments. Any concerns are simply dismissed, and as Richard says the one unfavourable comment they have chosen to quote is quite extraordinary.

It does nothing to dispel concerns that the consultation is simply an exercise to justify a decision which has already been made. The published statement by the Board only reinforces this.

Despite a statement on its website that "There is incontrovertible evidence that many people feel excluded by the word ‘English'" they have not published anything to show how that influences those people's choice of music, or that substituting 'England' will alter their attitude to what is unavoidably English music, whatever the Society calls itself. Despite also saying "We want to have mature discussions", so far as I can see no one from EFDSS has entered into any debates online.

I strongly suspect that this is driven not by any expectation that it will widen involvement in folk music but in response to pressure from other arts organisations and perhaps government to appear more inclusive. I think that is the coded message in their statement that "We must now consider a change of name if we are to fulfil our essential ambitions of widening the appeal of the folk music, dance, customs and traditions of England." That is the world we now live in, but I'd be more supportive of a change if they were more honest about it.

"Folk Arts England" is a rubbish name though. It makes no mention of music, dance and song and so will require just as much explanation as EFDSS does. At least the full name, however cumbersome, is pretty clear what it does.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Sep 22 - 02:47 AM

My fb friends comments are a ainst any changes and "Folk Arts" is already taken, it seems!

EFDSS ~ Efdus is well known

Cost of changes and bedding in will take over 20 years imv

No change, just a concerted effort on a Mission Statement and yes probably a good idea to continue to push at ground level youngster ~ but don't forget the source and revivivalist singers of the late 60s and 70s alive and not

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Sep 22 - 02:59 PM

The latest English Dance and Song has a few pages about the name change. Many of the submitted comments are quoted, all bar one more or less in favour of the change. The only comment opposed to the change that they have chosen to quote reads as if written by a white supremacist. They have presumably chosen that one to encourage readers to dismiss any and all opposition as similarly extremist and therefore to be dismissed.

The paragraph at the end is a bit too long to quote, but I venture to translate it thus: We have made up our corporate mind to effect the name change, but we're aware of the strength of opposition, so we will delay the change until the fuss has died down.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 05:17 PM

yes good suggestion, Rain Dog

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 06:04 AM

I predict you will not be thanked for that very sensible suggestion, Rain Dog.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 04:04 AM

Have you asked them about the costs involved? They are more likely to answer a direct question rather than a post on message board.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 22 - 12:14 AM

You and I have no idea of the costs, that is why i would like to know,
"It doesn't have lots of offices or fleets of vehicles to rebadge. A few boxes of stationery might go to waste, or they could simply replace them when they run out. If they can avoid paying excessive fees to graphic designers for a new logo then most of the admin could probably be done in-house" quote
where do you get your information on that.
you are right EFDSS could promote folk music better, promoting its insurance scheme for organisers of events is one starting point

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 05:18 AM

I doubt the costs will be significant. It doesn't have lots of offices or fleets of vehicles to rebadge. A few boxes of stationery might go to waste, or they could simply replace them when they run out. If they can avoid paying excessive fees to graphic designers for a new logo then most of the admin could probably be done in-house.

It is apparent from the comments in ED&S that the questions about "Englishness" which appear to be driving this come from "people who regularly work with EFDSS". ED&S has published some of the responses to the questions on "Englishness" and these appear to disagree with some of the more loaded questions, in particular 52.9% entirely disagreed that "'English' feels a little possessive, as though someone has the power/authority to decide what or who is English".

I'm afraid this suggests to me that this is far more to do with EFDSS trying to be accepted into the mainstream arts world than it is to do with promoting folk music, and adds to my fears that it is increasingly distancing itself from the grass roots.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jun 22 - 03:18 AM

as a member,Iwant to know the cost of changing the name and definite evidence of it being a good business move

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jun 22 - 04:53 AM

ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE IS THE English and International Folk Dance and Song society EIFDSS, That way English is included and international, but how much will it cost to change the name on all the logos?and will it generate more funding? perhaps members should be informed of the figures, and then allowed to vote

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 04:54 PM

this could be solved by calling it The Folkdance and Song society, its approach is international any way, international includes the UK England is in fact a multi racial society anyway.
in the past ex Russian dancers, RESDIENT OR BORN IN eNGLAND have put on displays for the society, so English includes other cultures and tradtuions and has for many years, i think back to the Debrowa? family

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 09:49 AM

The latest English Dance & Song says that the consultation is still continuing. We are assured that this is a genuine consultation, and that no decision has been made. If true (and I'm ready to give them the benefit of the doubt) the design of the survey is even worse than I imagined, if it's obvious bias is in fact accidental.

The only analysis they've provided at this stage is how people feel about "Englishness". There's a hint that a lot of the pressure may be coming from other organisations they work with, who may have no interest in folk music or tradition and perhaps have quite different priorities. This seems to all be part of EFDSS's desire to join the Arts mainstream and abandon the grass roots.

When the name change was originally proposed the Chair said she hoped for a "mature discussion" but I haven't seen EFDSS engaging with any of the online debates I've come across, including this one.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 22 - 02:18 AM

the full albion?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 09:13 PM

If the clowns in charge do change the name what will the Full English become?
Perhaps the Full Erm!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 22 - 03:24 AM

Anonymouse guest are you suggesting that english folk musicians singing english shanties should not be supported when they work outside England, you just couldnt make it up. to quote Martin Carthy "who is this berlk"

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 22 - 02:46 AM

27 april22 242am was from me

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 22 - 02:42 AM

www.fastnetmaritime.com supports english folkmusicians playing in ireland, EFDSS are promoting english folk music in ireland. we appreciate the support of EFDSS

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,guest Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 22 - 07:20 AM

EFDSS SUPPORTS International FOLK DANCE and Folk Song, since my festival supports English folk musicans such as Keith Kendrick, Jim Mageean,Sylvia Needham, Andy Kenna, Merfolk,Sheila Park, Gemma Khawaja, Roger Resch, your coments are widely inaccurate, as well as provocative

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 06:10 PM

I see the EFDSS joined with millions of others in celebrating St George's day.

"I am St George who from England sprung, my famous name throughout the world has rung"
The first couplet of my script when I played the doughty warrior.

Just tongue in cheek thoughts!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 06:04 PM

Perhaps the last note Ray refers to is aimed at Dick who I am sure can fight his own battles.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 03:11 AM

I can't see where "NOT supporting English Music and Musicians" comes into it

I do support the work EFDSS does particularly with young professionals in the area of grants

It is the name and the word "English" that seems to be the problem ~ I have no problem with English ~ we are English and the word is, for me quite acceptable and no other difficulties should be implied!!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 22 - 05:43 PM

So not supporting English Music or Muscians working in England. You just couldn’t make it up

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 04:51 PM

Yes.I have read it thoroughly

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 04:45 PM

Would that be for an event in Ireland ? Are you sure that will work in event of a claim ? Just curious.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 08:57 AM

I have found it useful. I am using their insurance

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,another guest
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 06:12 PM

It not only hates the north(?) it just hates the membership.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 22 - 05:54 PM

EFDSS for the London luvvies get did of it and it’s so called reincarnation it hates the north

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Mar 22 - 01:01 AM

oh WARTS and FARTS ~ leave well alone

Ray

Long live EFdus

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: treewind
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 03:51 PM

"Folk Arts will always be abbreviated, portmanteaued, pesudonymed - talk "about coonotations!"

Not to mention parodied. I'll be calling them "Woke Arts England".

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest Anon
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 08:57 AM

There is a scarcity of young people running folk festivals and folk clubs, by publicising it to young people and encouraging young people with grants there is a possibilty young people may take over as organisers it is called financial incentive, but it needs to be publicised efficently

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 12:50 PM

Guest, I agree it would be good to see EFDSS doing more to support the grass roots. However there is hardly a scarcity of folk festivals. The UK Folk Festivals website lists 139 festivals in England this year, 37 in Scotland, 18 in Wales and 18 in Ireland. This is probably far from complete - I know of a few (admittedly small and eclectic) events which are not shown.

Nevertheless you have a point about the insurance. EFDSS provides this as a benefit to members, but not only does it do little to publicise this, it does nothing to raise awareness that this is something event organisers should consider.

I get the impression it is not really interested in attracting members (its membership is tiny, at around 2200). It seems to function quite happily as an arts body channelling third-party funding into whatever activities the trustees and staff consider suitable. I see no evidence that they are much interested in what the membership thinks - this consultation is very much an exception.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Guest nom de plume
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 12:01 PM

EFDSS should focus its attentions on promoting both equally, they can do this by providing subsidies for young people to promote festivals in either dance or song or both