EFDSS proposed name change

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 01:30 PM

Thanks Mo the caller ~ my folk activities are normally acting as a emcee at the likes of Whitby, Saltburn and Warwick (in the past) Whitby ff had certain PL issues and I was told that public house insurance was not necessarily to relied upon nor their own PL insurance (Whitby in particular) but EFDSS membership conferred a sufficient level of Public liability insurance

I received the above pasted statement as above from Sandman when I renewed my EFDSS membership, once again!

Now I am confused ~ are EFDDSS saying that they are wishing to tighten up on the coverage and that a blanket approach is not acceptable and that specific sort of gig PL needs to be spelled out on all occasions ~ looks like a hornets nest to me ~ ££?


Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 03:13 PM

ray, ring the insurers

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 03:20 PM

With all the respect that is due to the belittlers, the gripers and complainers, I'd suggest that organisations that make ANY attempt to sustain or extend any of the arts of the people are so few that anybody with a serious or even passing interest should be doing everything in their power to make them more effective. Again, with the respect that is due, I'd suggest that if you don't like how an organisation in which you might have an interest is run, you should get in there and be an instrument for its change. EFDSS has resources that could be more effectively used but no resource is more useful than active members - join and act. And, I suggest too that the complainers take a look at the membership of the Board and that of the editorial board of the Journal - every one is active, every one is committed - get in there and do your bit - too many seem to me to use the criterion, what's in it for me before they consider how could I help? EFDSS has influence - use your influence on it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 05:52 PM

John - The problem at the moment is that it would be extremely difficult for individual members to be effective. The powers that be seem not to want members gumming up the works - just their money.
I wrote well over a month ago to the treasurer asking for any thoughts on how much a change of name might cost - a fairly basic question I would have thought and certainly not one to cause offence.
I have yet to receive an acknowledgement, let alone an answer.
At about the same time but separately I asked a question of the membership department which could mean me not renewing my membership - not deliberately - as yet again no answer.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 05:55 PM

Ray -
There was never a problem with Public Liability Insurance during my involvement with Whitby so am I to assume this is a recent thing?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Dec 21 - 07:24 PM

John makes a fair point about getting involved rather than carping from the sidelines, but I agree with Malcolm that there seems to be very few ways an individual member can become actively involved, and there is nothing on the website to suggest this would even be encouraged.

I have to confess all but one of the trustees is unfamiliar to me. Having googled a few of the others, many of them seem to have backgrounds in the arts and no doubt bring valuable skills and expertise, but I don't see much evidence of active involvement in folk music. Perhaps I am wrong, I haven't delved that deeply. I don't question their commitment, simply the direction they have chosen to take the Society.

The issue with insurance is that with only a few days to go before the year end they have apparently not yet agreed the renewal of the policy and are not yet able to issue certificates. Anyone relying on its PLI who has a New Year's Eve gig would be well advised to contact the insurers to see if they will be covered after midnight.

There was a rumpus a couple of years ago when they announced changes to the policy, with very little notice and part-way through the year, which removed PLI cover for performers who were paid more than expenses and for events which charged more than their immediate costs. This effectively removed cover from most of those who are most likely to actually need it, and left some professional performers without PLI in the middle of the festival season, and potentially in breach of their own contracts. After an outcry this was reversed, but not before many had been forced to take out cover elsewhere. Not only was the announcement of the change handled very badly, it showed an appalling lack of awareness of or interest in the sort of activities their members are doing.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 03:16 AM

Malcolm times and attitudes re H &S have changed and the PLI situation was explained to me by Barry Evans

As Howard says above renewal terms are yet to be finalised ~ I will watch this space ~ it seems of course that many festivals have had difficulty with insurance in these Covid times ~ I do not know which Insurer EFDSS have their arrangements!

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 05:53 AM

EFDSS's insurance broker is Bryan James, I don't know who the actual policy is with. I know from experience that they are happy to deal with individual queries.

Cover is limited to events of no more than 500 people, so most festivals would have to arrange their own insurance. Event coverage is intended for things like dance and song clubs. Cover for individuals is probably aimed at amateur and semi-professional performers. Full-time pros are not currently excluded but would need to decide for themselves if it is adequate for their purposes.

The problem with the proposed change in 2019 is that it did not allow the event to charge more than was needed to cover its costs. Many regular events aim to make a surplus, although this is retained to run future events and not kept by the organisers as profit. The intention may have been to exclude only events run on a commercial basis for profit, but the wording was unclear and even contradictory. Thankfully they changed it following protests.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 06:49 AM

Ray
I'll carry on sucking this egg shall I?
At the time I was involved with Whitby we arranged not only PL cover but also equipment cover for performers and cover for hired in items such as toilet and shower blocks for the campsites.
I expect that the only problem / change to purchase the necessary cover would be the increase in cost.
We also took H & S issues very seriously.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 07:12 AM

It's not usually difficult to obtain PLI cover from an insurance broker, and it's not necessary to rely on EFDSS cover. However for amateur and semi-professional (and many professional) performers a block policy like this is probably the most affordable. For many individuals and organisations the insurance is a significant benefit, and perhaps the main reason they are members.

I am involved with running a series of ceilidhs, and we affiliated to EFDSS in order to obtain PLI. We could have got this elsewhere, but our choice was partly so that the EFDSS could benefit. If they had not reversed the 2019 changes we would have left and gone elsewhere. The ceilidh band I play in does not use EFDSS for its PLI, we get it through a broker for less than the cost of affiliation.

A festival on the scale of Whitby clearly has requirements which go way beyond what the EFDSS cover can provide.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 07:59 AM

RAY The insurers are listed on the efdss website

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 08:01 AM

ray insurers
contact Bryan James: [e-mail], telephone [phone]

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 09:20 AM

I think the point is missed!

Yes I am not a "professional" paid artist ~ I rely on what I am advised by those who should know

I do not want to pay anything ~ I do NOT want to contact an insurer ~ I have assumed that Whitby ff and EFDSS have agreed that members who dance and singers and musicians are covered in a blanket arrangement ~ if not what IS the position

Yes Malcolm eggs are good for you

Ray
Barnsley Longword I am told do have their own PLI insurance!

Iam not happy to pay OWT!!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 02:20 PM

Ray, I believe the position is that if you are a member of EFDSS then you are covered by their current insurance policy until the end of the year. You can see what is covered by downloading the Guidance notes from the Insurance section of their website, but it is pretty broad and should cover any MCing you do at folk events. The restrictions I mentioned which they tried to impose in 2019 were abandoned after complaints from members.

Hopefully this will be renewed for 2022, but the website says "The members’ insurance certificate for 2022 is in preparation and will be available later in December." They still have a few more days to sort it out. I assume it will provide similar cover to the current policy but this will need to be checked when it is issued.

If you will be MCing or engaging in a folk activity over the New Year period, and if they haven't posted the new certificate by then, it is possible that you won't be covered. This is probably only a theoretical concern, and assuming it is simply a delay with the paperwork my guess is that they would probably honour a claim during this period. However the only way to be certain, if a certificate isn't issued in time, would be to speak to Bryan James.

If you have a household insurance policy you may find that this also provides you with public liability cover.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 07:42 PM

Ray
When I first got involved in the running of Whitby Folk Week in 1982 it was still a Society festival and as such all surpluses were the Society's. Responsibility for Public Liability Insurance and licensing rested with the Society.
In that first year the gang of four Edmund Jenkinson, Graham Pirt, Trevor Stone, Malcolm Storey returned a surplus to the Society in excess of the turnover for the 1981 festival - several thousand pounds.
The situation changed after the 1985 event when Nibs Matthews retired as Artistic Director of the Society and Jim Lloyd became the Director with a shift towards a more rigid business ethic - something which some, including myself, welcomed. Jim did a good job of bringing the running of the Society into a more modern era but one of his improvements was to announce that he wished to see Society festivals donate any surpluses to the Society but to absorb any losses themselves.
Edmund Jenkinson and I were by this time the joint volunteer directors of Whitby Folk Week and as such could not accept that - and why should we?
Fairly amicable discussions led to us taking the festival forward as an independent entity. For a number of years we did offer a discount to society members as gesture of goodwill.
We quickly discovered that when it came to the PL and other issues we had been largely relying on something that might not have been true but probably not deliberately so.
We therefore put in place measures to meet our responsibilities. Edmund was offered a conditional (give up Whitby) directorship with his employers, a major civil engineering company, about the time of that 1986 festival after which we parted company extremely amicably and remained good friends until his untimely death.
You seem to feel that there is some agreement between the current WFW team and the EFDSS regarding insurances but I would think that difficult to conceive - especially with the 500 limit on attendances. I stand to be corrected on that but not by you.

Finally I'm pleased to see you are a still a devout Yorkshireman - especially when it comes to the first commandment.
Pay Nowt and then only grudgingly!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 27 Dec 21 - 07:53 PM

John
Just a thought - the Society went a long way towards doing away with member involvement when it demolished the District Committee, Area Council structure and at the same time got rid of Sales Points.
I am not by nature a committee person but still persevered at all levels and participated in some very much member led enjoyable and successful initiatives.
And what happened to National Folk Day?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 03:30 AM

Thanks Howard and Malcolm ~ time will tell

For the record I see no advantage, indeed nowt but confusion with a name change away from EFDSS ~ it is what is being done and can be done to improve and increase participation and help in all aspects of dance music and song

The "professionals" seem to have advanced by need to make a living, their "place of employment" certainly away from the "folk clubs" ~ what everyone is looking for is a paying listening audience ~ a move towards festivals providing Workshops in all aspects ~ maybe?

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 06:23 AM

Consignia, anyone ?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 06:30 AM

Ray - I'm with you on the name change fiasco. A nonsensical waste of time and resources and potentially money down the drain.
As far as I know the Society has no direct involvement with any festivals although it does seek the occasional free ride to sell its wares.
Most of the established smaller dance festivals offer lots of workshops but tend to be blessed with an ageing audience.
The two largest festivals already offer a plethora of workshops of all kinds as well as a heavy commitment to involving children - it's the teens to forties (when we started!) that is not by and large being attracted.
The Society outside of London seems to be largely aiming at schools and the like.
Its song initiatives tend to focus on new works by a chosen few.
There is certainly no sign of the buzz expression "levelling up" within the Society.

I remember being offered a trip to a brand new medieval castle once when in Spain. Some people went twice!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 08:41 AM

Any organisation which receives government funding has to meet certain standards of governance and behaviour. This includes an emphasis on diversity, in a praiseworthy attempt to ensure that everyone in society is able to participate and is not excluded by unintentional as well as intentional bias.

The EFDSS appears to have decided that the term "English" has negative connotations for some and must be therefore be eradicated in order to show it is open to all. This seems to me to present a problem for an organisation whose principal purpose is to promote and preserve English folk music. However that may not be the point, a name change which apparently removes this objection can be shown to have ticked this particular box. This may appease those who feel their sense of personal identity is excluded by the term "English", but what about those who feel their own sense of personal identity will have been chipped away a little bit more?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 09:18 AM

Sorry to shout but it's a paste from the Charity Commission web site:

Charitable objects:

2.1.1 TO PRESERVE ENGLISH FOLK DANCES AND SONGS AND OTHER FOLK MUSIC (INCLUDING SINGING GAMES), FOLK TALES AND FOLK DRAMA, TO MAKE THEM KNOWN AND TO ENCOURAGE THE PRACTICE OF THEM IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORMS; 2.1.2 TO PROMOTE THE KNOWLEDGE AND PRACTICE OF ENGLISH FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC, TALES AND DRAMA BY MEANS OF DANCES, SCHOOLS CLASSES , EXAMINATIONS, LECTURES, DEMONSTRATIONS, FESTIVALS AND OTHER LIKE METHODS; 2.2.3 TO PROMOTE AND ENCOURAGE RESEARCH INTO AND STUDY OF THE ORIGINS DEVELOPMENT AND TRADITIONAL PRACTICE OF ENGLISH FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC TALES AND DRAMA AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THOSE OF OTHER COUNTRIES.


I read that as being specifically 'English', with 'other folk music' meaning other English folk music.


https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-search/-/charity-details/305999/charity-overview

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 09:22 AM

Meant to add, as well as the focus of 'English' the "...AND TO ENCOURAGE THE PRACTICE OF THEM IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORMS" is explicit.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 09:27 AM

Well spotted that person!

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 07:49 AM

Guest (28th December) says that he/she reads 'that as being specifically 'English', with 'other folk music' meaning other English folk music.'

But, as I said earlier on, the Society has never limited itself just to English folk (song/dance/customs etc) as this sentence says, 'AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THOSE OF OTHER COUNTRIES.'

I have always seen the EFDSS as being 'English' only in the sense that it is based in England. Unfortunately, we are living through a very nationalistic period (what are all those Union Flags doing behind Government Ministers whenever they appear on TV?) and this proposed change in name belongs to a similar mind-set.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 08:24 AM

English is a language - connotations of things other than customs
England is geography/the people - a better fit.

Folk Arts will always be abbreviated, portmanteaued, pesudonymed - talk about coonotations! If the corporate identity of EFDSS needs a re-boot, the name is an obvious start. It has nothing to do with logic, it is all about the perception of the wider public. The hope is that it would draw more people to be interested and for the organisation - join. But get it right ................ second chances are available but counter-productive.
Fakebook tried it and have endured derision, not least from me.

Yes, Yes, you can change the operating methodology and hope people will notice, and then change the name. But as a percentage shot, it is next to zero, even in the long term.

For EFDSS to have relevance it needs people, and more than at present IMNSHO. Don't forget, Bob Dylan et al were the fashion for the yoof of the 60s and that created waves amongst the old guard. Are we ready for today's yoof and their interpretation of Folk? Perhaps we should tut-tut knowingly, and they will come in droves! Such is the way of things.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 08:40 AM

To me Folk Arts means corn dollies and graffiti.

Robin

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST, 28 Dec 21 - 09:22 AM
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 09:20 AM

I quoted the charitable objects because they probably set out what the organisation regarded itself as being about the last time it formally reviewed its aims. Charitable objects can be changed to fit with changing times. For a membership organisation the Charity Commission may want to know that the members agree.

The "Folk Arts" (arts plural, so arguably not 'Folk Art' or 'Folk Crafts') part of the suggested name seems a reasonable fit for "...FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC, TALES AND DRAMA".

But I read 'English' as being used in a geographic ethnomusicological sense, as if maybe it stems for Sharpe's 'English national music' ideas.

What isn't clear to me is where musicians who don't also have a day job or who present newly written tunes via broadcast media come into the charitable objects.

On the one hand I think it would be a shame if the focus of the VWML became much wider than England - there are other places to that focus on the music of other people and places. On the other hand (a) a lot of the 'folk' in England now have other musical heritages and (b) it would be a pity if someone wanting to, say, put on a Breton bal or organise Bulgarian singing workshop was prevented from using EFDSS resources (or the results of it's negotiations with an insurance broker) because the aims were too parochially English.

It would seem odd to change the name without updating the charitable objects.

jag

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 10:03 AM

Yes English can convey England as a Nation as well as English as a Language ~ Welsh and Scottish and Irish can also be similarly described ~ England as a base fine, but without with the other common "Nationalistic" connotations obviously ~ and covering music songs and dance found in our Islands and groups

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 11:02 AM

The charitable objects also include "and other folk music", so its scope does go beyond just English music. Nevertheless it seems clear that is where its focus should lie.

I think it's probably broad enough for a bal to be covered by EFDSS insurance. However if I were running an club formed expressly to put on events of non-English folk I think I would want to seek confirmation from the insurers.

It's not clear whether the name change also represents a change of direction (or perhaps consolidation of an existing direction) or whether it's simply window-dressing to avoid using the E-word and to demonstrate "inclusiveness".

In particular, it's not clear whether the new name signifies an intention to represent the traditions of other cultures which now make up a significant part of our society. The Society seems to prefer "English" to mean "in England" rather than "belonging to England", so that seems possible. On the one hand, these are now part of English society and therefore part of contemporary English folk arts. On the other, these communities may prefer that the safeguarding of their traditions is best left in their own hands.

No one thinks it wrong that Comhaltas concentrates on Irish traditional music, or that other communities should want to preserve their own traditions, indeed this is seen as something to be encouraged. Why then should the English tradition be treated differently? It is probably more at risk than many of these other traditions, since most English people have forgotten about it, and it is at best ignored and and worst ridiculed. I would feel very let down if the EFDSS decided this is no longer important.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:22 AM
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 11:44 AM

I think as it's placed in that sentence 'other folk music' is more likely to be there to include English folk music other than songs. If not English folk music other than songs is not included. In the other objects it is condensed to "ENGLISH FOLK DANCES, SONGS AND MUSIC, TALES AND DRAMA" and in the last one that is distinguished from "THOSE OF OTHER COUNTRIES"

If by 'other folk music" they meant the folk music of other countries then I think, given the name of the charity, they should/would have said that.

If that's what's meant (now, whatever it meant before) there is no reason to rely on a possible ambiguity, they could just change it to be more explicit. Though since they have members I think the trustees would have to ask the members' views. And I bet some would not agree...

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 12:49 PM

"Please also be assured that our continuing use of the word FOLK is not up for negotiation!"
Then they are wasting their time.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 02:56 PM

Please Guest above explain what you mean, thanks

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 03:56 PM

Folk as a music term has become totally meaningless, in my opinion. Comhaltas in Ireland and the TMSA in Scotland both seem to successfully exist without it. See also a current discussion.
Maybe doesn't mean anything, but just for fun I went to eBay, category music and typed in folk. The first 6 results were as follows :
Clannad - Kate Rusby - Joan Baez [ so far, so good ], followed by Nik Kershaw, Kylie Minogue and Eva Cassidy. That's what some people associate with the term folk.
If people aren't aware of EFDSS, why are they going to be aware of it if it is called something else ? A turd called a rose is still a turd.
I'm reminded of the American comedian Bill Hicks, who would stop in the middle of his act and say to his audience something like :
"I would just like to say at this point, that if you work in advertising, or marketing, please - go kill yourself. This is not a joke, there is no punchline, I will now get back to the show".

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 04:08 PM

From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 11:02 AM
"In particular, it's not clear whether the new name signifies an intention to represent the traditions of other cultures which now make up a significant part of our society. The Society seems to prefer "English" to mean "in England" rather than "belonging to England", so that seems possible. On the one hand, these are now part of English society and therefore part of contemporary English folk arts. On the other, these communities may prefer that the safeguarding of their traditions is best left in their own hands.
No one thinks it wrong that Comhaltas concentrates on Irish traditional music, or that other communities should want to preserve their own traditions, indeed this is seen as something to be encouraged. Why then should the English tradition be treated differently? It is probably more at risk than many of these other traditions, since most English people have forgotten about it, and it is at best ignored and and worst ridiculed. I would feel very let down if the EFDSS decided this is no longer important."

To an extent hybridisation is already being encouraged by EFDSS. They have sponsored various groups (do I remember a Morris team working with Ballet students to put on a performance / Fok dancers and Street dancers) Can't find anything on the website, though the first page is interesting.. No mention of English unless you scroll a long way down,and a big thing about diversity & inclusiveness.

It's an interesting question, how much we should try to keep styles separate and 'traditional' (which often means 'how I was taught it x years ago) or should we welcome change. Some may 'tut' when people who enjoy twirling in Zesty Contra then start twirling in Playford back-to-backs.
So many folk tunes crop up almost the same from different parts of Europe.
Was there ever such a thing as 'English Folk'?

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 04:30 PM

I seem to have logged out. The last post was me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 04:45 PM

Was there ever such a thing as 'English Folk'? yes and there is a book called the penguin book of english folk songs, and a new penguin book of english folk songs, edited by steve roud and julia bishop, and guess what it contains english folk songs, and surprise surprise not fecking buddy holly

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 04:46 PM

I'm glad that following my blast, the conversation has been taken up by people with knowledge, interest and intent. As I said, I live in Ireland and I've enough to do but, I do know some of the people who are on the Board and will begin a chat with them - calling their attention to this thread as a start. It's likely I don't know enough about the politics of 'folk' in England so I'll desist unless I'm asked to lend a bit of weight. However, Howard's reference to Comhaltas and people not minding that it confines itself to Irish music needs a bit of argument - Comhaltas is a deeply nationalistic, deeply conservative organisation with a highly authoritarian governance structure and, while at grass roots it has some influence, its influence on Irish music in general has been pretty negative. As Breandán Breathnach said in 1978 "Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann is an organisation with a great future behind it"

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Mo the caller
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 05:17 PM

"....book called the penguin book of english folk songs, and a new penguin book of english folk songs, edited by steve roud and julia bishop, and guess what it contains english folk songs"

Or maybe it contains folk songs sung in England.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 07:50 PM

The very first song I sang before an audience was with a pal of mine at a works do competition.
We did a fair rendition of the Everley Brothers number "Dream" and carried off the second prize.
I was and still am a great fan of Buddy Holly (leave him alone Dick) and was lucky enough to see him live when in his pomp. I have never sung any of his songs to an audience.
My mother who had a lovely voice persuaded me to sing to the joanna in one of the local pubs and I enjoyed that - especially when other people asked me for requests.
Other venues followed but once I started singing in Folk Clubs that part of my song activities ceased apart from leading the community singing at Rugby Club events.
Times change and societies have to live with that but that does not mean it is wrong to remember and preserve things from the past which are part of our culture.
To go through a meaningless and potentially expensive exercise to perhaps tick an extra box to help fill the begging bowl to protect the odd meaningless job or two is not the way to do it.
John Moulden hopes that the people he knows on the board might take some interest in this thread - but I very much doubt it.
"They" always know best - ask Boris the Buffoon.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: matt milton
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:50 AM

"No one thinks it wrong that Comhaltas concentrates on Irish traditional music, or that other communities should want to preserve their own traditions, indeed this is seen as something to be encouraged. Why then should the English tradition be treated differently?"

I think eventually, as years go by, the remit of Comhaltas will be increasingly questioned.
In the meantime, it is secure largely because Irish music and dance makes a lot of money. If England had it's equivalent of Riverdance, or if English sessions had become a cultural export as globally successful as the Irish session then I think the EFDSS probably would be in a very different position (and probably wouldn't need funding so badly).

EFDSS, as pointed out above, already has many hybrid/collaborative events, already features folk arts (visual arts, drama etc) as a peripheral part of its activity, and already hosts folk music events from other cultures (eg London Bulgarian choir).

I suspect increasing amounts of this is inevitable and actually to be desired. This isn't just about funding, it's about people and culture over time.

That doesn't imply that the EFDSS set themselves up as an authority or a spokesperson for those other musics - it clearly doesn't have the funding or resources or expertise to do that even if it wanted to.

But an EFDSS that focuses on English folk music while also hosting and promoting events and programmes that include "immigrant" folkloric traditions (eg calypso, Central and Eastern European traditions, Latin American music) alongside English trad events strikes me as a positive way forward.

It already does a bit of that anyway and whatever the stated aims are and whether or not it prefers 'of/from England' over 'English' that's how I suspect it'll go.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 05:59 AM

John, with respect you seem to have misunderstood my point. No doubt Comhaltas can be criticised for many things. What it is unlikely to be criticised for is not being "diverse" enought because it does not encourage the playing of music from other traditions. It is understood and accepted that its purpose is to encourage traditional Irish music (how well it does this is not the point here).

It is this quest for "diversity" that I fear is behind the proposed name change. I have a sense that the very idea of focussing on "Englishness" is seen as exclusionary and therefore suspect, whereas a minority community focussing on its own culture would be encouraged. I think it is entirely proper that there should be an organisation dedicated to the promotion and preservation of English folk music, and it should not flinch from saying that is what it does.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 06:26 AM

Mo, I am not suggesting that English folk exists in a vacuum. It shares much of its repertoire with the rest of the UK and Ireland, as well as taking influences from elsewhere. Nevertheless that does not mean there is no such thing as English folk music. It has its own distinctive styles, even when performing music which may have originated elswhere.

Neither am I opposed to EFDSS encouraging cross-over collaborations. I don't believe folk music should be preserved in aspic, it should be explored and enjoyed. I am certainly guilty of "taking liberties" with it: my band's version of the Rochdale Coconut Dance was described as "starts in Lancashire and moves ever rapidly eastwards, finishing somewhere near Chicago" although one reviewer said "I reckon it's more like New Orleans". However you should always keep in mind the core tradition. I can't help feeling that EFDSS is a little too keen to promote these collaborations and doesn't do enough to encourage the performance of basic English folk.

However there is a difference between music from elsewhere being assimilated into English traditions and English styles of performance, and the folk music of the other immigrant cultures who are now part of our society which are now performed in England. I am not for a moment suggesting this music is of any less value, or that those communities should not be regarded as English or British, simply that is not what the term "English folk music" means. I question whether it is EFDSS's role to promote this music as well, and whether those communities would actually want it to.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:16 AM

Interesting stuff from Howard ~and yes "folk" music and dance and song has existed largely in parallel with the world of EFDSS whatever that does encompass for many years and no doubt has its own merit and following

EFDSS can and does do a fine job in promoting its aims and objectives and perhaps was and still is a leader in English folk dance and its events certainly around Sheffield such as "Sound post" and other workshop events ~ it seems to be very active in encouraging the young people in folk activities ~ and good luck to them

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:26 AM

Soundpost does excellent work, but it is an independent community arts organisation run by a number of musicians from the Sheffield folk community. Nothing to do with EFDSS.

https://soundpost.org.uk/about

It is just one of many local organisations which have stepped into the breach since EFDSS closed its regional branches.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:42 AM

"EFDSS can and does do a fine job in promoting its aims and objectives"

Maybe, but what it promotes seems to be concentrated in a few niche areas, and with a strong London bias. Do you have examples of events or activities away from London which are run by EFDSS (and not by local organisations such as Soundpost).

"perhaps was and still is a leader in English folk dance"

I'm not sure what you mean by "leader". As I see it, social dance and ceilidh are in the hands of local clubs. These may be affiliated members of EFDSS for the insurance, but speaking as an organiser of one I can say that they provide them with very little support. When I have asked EFDSS for advice they have either been unable to help or have ignored me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST,28 Dec 21 - 09:22 AM
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:55 AM

Soundpost looks good. I see EFDSS is one of several sponsors. Digging around led me to this: https://www.efdss.org/images/present/Docs/Library/DiversityConference2021ProgrammeWWW.pdf

which seemed to touch on many aspects relevant to this discussion. For example I think many would regard shanties as part of 'English folk music' but, as discussed in great detail on mudcat at times, it's really not that simple.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 10:55 AM

Thanks again Howard Jones ~ this puts me straight of course ~ and EFDSS in a different light

Does The Society not offer certain grants to specific organisations?

and yes I do know of VWML but I am, as I said earlier unlikely to make that particular trip!

Name change is even more of a low priority and the accent on its core activities much more important ~ BUT maybe I have the cart before the horse with EFDSS perceived as simply an organisation to provide expertise and advice to established groups?

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 11:01 AM

EFDSS does seem to run and support activities largely at Cecil Sharp House (in normal times)

Was and I am surprised to see that Halsway Manor is also a separate concern though no doubt encouraged by EFDSS ~ wrong again?

Ray

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 12:28 PM

I'm sure the EFDSS does give financial support to some organisations, although it is far from clear what it does or who benefits. It is one of several organisations shown as supporters of Soundpost, for example, although what this involves is not clear.

It also offers bursaries to developing artists and supports a number of specific projects, which are shown on its website.

In my experience it doesn't offer much support, financial or otherwise, to small grass-roots organisations. When I tried to contact it with a query about GDPR (which would affect any folk club with a membership list) I was ignored. Other organisations I am involved with provide extensive resources to assist club committee members, EFDSS provides next to nothing, and what there is can be difficult to find.

It recently offered micro-grants to dance clubs to get re-started post-Covid, but the "artspeak" language used in the application form suggested you would need to be familiar with making grant applications and the appropriate formulations in order to be successful. It was necessary to show how the grant would be used attract disadvantaged people - a worthy objective but not a priority at a time when it was difficult to attract anyone, and when holding an event at all was highly uncertain and with considerable financial risk. Presumably some clubs were successful, but my own was put off from even applying by the language and conditions attached.

Subject: RE: EFDSS proposed name change
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 12:42 PM

"It was necessary to show how the grant would be used attract disadvantaged people"

Maybe that was something to do with how they got the funds