Carthy Family needs assistance

Subject: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,Mary Katherine sans cookie
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 01:57 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/jan/13/carthy-folk-dynasty-appeals-for-financial-support-after-income-dried-up-during-pandemic

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 08:39 PM

It is my understanding that TRAVELERS have their own, very unique assistance league.

It is quite presumptuous you are seeking kindness from strangers.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

talk about SPAM.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 09:57 PM

Now, now, Gargoyle!
This one is legit, already.

The good Missus, better known by her maiden name as
Norma Waterson,
is hospitalized with pneumonia.
So says her daughter, Eliza Carthy.

Martin Carthy was set to perform online through Falcon House
on January 8, one week ago:
he had a mild case of COVID, it has since been disclosed,
and had to postpone the concert
while he regained his health. Remember, he is eighty years old.

Eliza Carthy states in her online statements and updates
that she is taking this assistance appeal online
at the advice of others.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 10:22 PM

Martin Carthy and Norma Waterson have contributed so much to folk music in the English-speaking world. Their plight is a worthy cause. Take a look at the concert Martin did at the home of Janie Meneely and Rob Van Sante last year:

https://www.youtube.com/user/Tulip0852/live

And don't be grumpy, Gargoyle.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: RTim
Date: 14 Jan 22 - 10:42 PM

To add to and show the family "blight".....all the house (Martin, Elisa and children) have been tested Positive for Covid.
Norma is in hospital with Pneumonia as well as testing Positive for Covid.
In addition Martin has had a Knee replacement recently....Therefore - All Live performance possibilities have dried up due to Covid.......

They have done so much for the music we love...don't begrudge them some Charity.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 04:40 AM

Millions of people in this country are in dire straits because of multiple factors that have arisen in recent years, mostly through no fault of their own. That adds up to millions of deserving causes. Martin and Norma will both be in receipt of old age pensions. Mrs Steve and I are well placed to see us through the next few years, but we have people very near and dear to us who are decidedly not and who may need help from us, despite our own living costs ballooning. So mixed feelings here. Good luck to them. Let's hope that the good times of old England return soon...

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 05:49 AM

Martin and Norma will presumably receive a State Pension, but that is not a lot. I don't know whether their earnings have been sufficient for them to afford private pensions, but it seems that whatever they have been able to accrue is not sufficient for them to live on, and even in their eighties they still rely on being able to continue to work. In any event, it surely says something about how little the folk world really values this music and those who perform it that two of its most successful and highest-profile performers apparently have not been sufficiently financially rewarded to support themselves in their old age.

Of course they are not alone in this, but these are people who have been at the top of their game for most of their careers, both with international reputations which go beyond the folk world. I find it shocking as well as sad that they should find themselves in this situation.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 05:59 AM

yes, well said Steve, sad news for the family, and yes, a huge influence on the revival, but with 150,000 dead in UK let's have a sense Of proportion here.

There will be two sets of opinions here & many performers with needs just as great, or more so after two years of NO work & no help- you pays your money.....

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 06:18 AM

I receive three quarters of a uk state pension, and have had no gigs since the beginning of Decmber, however despite having had covid ,
I am fit enough to go busking., and am managing.
I hope Martin and his family recover quickly, and that lots of people send them money.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,Oriel
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 06:29 AM

The Carthy family have gigs booked throughout 2022. They are also doing online concerts. Much as I have sympathy for them, I will continue trying to help people who have had, and have got, no gigs.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 06:31 AM

The full new State Pension is £179.60 per week. What you’ll receive is based on your National Insurance record.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 07:07 AM

If you were born before 1951 the state pension is £137.6 per week

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 07:10 AM

I copied that web address in the first message into the browser, and I got a message back saying it was a webscam.

Much better idea. Put Martins address here, and we could all bung him ten or twenty or whatever we can afford.

I've always admired Martin and don't like to think of him devoid of new strings or a pork pie or whatever makes life all right for him.
I hope he soon feels better. Its a worry when you're getting old. To me it feels like the wolf outside the door. Must be awful to be in the situation Martin is - when you're gigging - you don't only have income from gigs - you have committments too. I bey MC's pension is committed to keeping him in the game. That's how it is when you're self employed.

Luckily I gave up gigging when I was 70, I accepted that I don't have the strength any more to heave around heavy amplifiers, or even heavy guitar cases. All the best Martin!

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 08:19 AM

IKnow that bonzo 3 legs BONZO 3 LEGS,I learned acounting before you were born
I receive 535 euros a month, fortunately despite Covid ,i am fit enough to go busking.
Norma is clearly not well, and I wish them all the best, they are decent people, unlike Bonzo who as far as i am concerned has only one redeeming feature[ his concern for dogs]

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 09:18 AM

We can all buy tickets for Martin's online gig, hope it goes ahead, and decline a refund if it doesn't due to family health reasons. But it is sad that a couple in their 80s should NEED to tour in order to maintain an adequate standard of living.

I looked at the Musician's Union website. It provides information on state, employer and private pension plans; but doesn't itself organise pension plans for self-employed musicians.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 09:51 AM

No, self-employed musicians have an obligation to organise a pension for themeslves, surely? The MU gives advice but no more & rightly so.

It's common sense & self-preservation to secure your later life- we have in our favour the NHS and a (pretty mean!) state pension in UK, and Covid did come out of the blue, but whilst wishing the Carthys rapid recovery, there has to be some doubt this is a 'charity' in the real sense of the word- compared to 'Water for Africa' 'Save the Children' etc?

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 10:20 AM

I don't understand any controversy here. The facts as I see them is that highly influential folk musicians who have brought countless people joy are in financial straits, and if they have brought joy to you and you're in a position to help then why not.

All this talk about "more deserving causes" - come on. We're all adult enough to handle the fact that no matter which cause you choose to support, there will ALWAYS be another one which is arguably "more deserving." If we all went by that logic then nobody would help anybody until the issue of who is the most deserving was settled once and for all. This is obviously not how things work. A little fundraising drive for the Carthys won't break anyone's bank or hurt any other cause.

Nor do I understand any kind of "they should have planned for this" sentiment. None of us know what the Carthy's finances look like or what kind of issues, troubles or disasters they've faced over the years that might have compromised them. We all have a situation. If there was a GoFundMe for the Carthys, I'd certainly contribute a little, same way I've contributed to certain other drives now and again, if the situation behind it grabs my attention enough. I certainly don't sit worrying about the thousands upon thousands of other GoFundMe's I might have contributed to instead.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,ottery
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 10:45 AM

Well said, James Phillips. I first heard the Watersons singing on a tape of The Seasons Round when I was around eight or nine. Since then their music and Eliza's has become an important part of my life, and has supported me when I was struggling.

I don't want to think of Martin and Norma now in their old age having to worry at all about money. I can't fix the world's problems - I can't even seem to fix my own problems - but at least I can do this small thing for a family whose art has brought me immense pleasure.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 10:48 AM

I agree with all that (though I'd point out that 'twas not I who wished to point to MORE deserving causes, but, possibly, equally deserving causes...). I did think that there wasn't a great deal of information in the opening post. I wish them well.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 12:25 PM

There was a link to a fundraiser in the thread about their streamable gig - https://ko-fi.com/elizacarthy - so thought I might as well post it here. Was very easy to "buy them a coffee" (i.e. donate a fiver) and it seems lots of people are helping.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 01:01 PM

I don't know why people need to give all manner of reasons not to help. The thread is just stating that there is a fundraiser. You either help or you don't. No need for histrionics...

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 01:38 PM

Yes I found that one on Eliza's website.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 02:43 PM

The so called state pension - first brought into being by Lloyd George is no longer a pension but a benefit - the boys in blue sneaked that one through.
As such there is no automatic entitlement and what you get is always assessed to the lowest figure some android decides on.
Beware!

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 02:53 PM

That's just misinformation. Your state pension entitlement is based on your contributions record and is enshrined in law. The entitlement is automatic and can't be adjusted down by "androids."

I for one was not giving reasons not to help. I was giving the wider context, that's all.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 05:16 PM

Actually, the state pension compared to what I was making gigging pubs doesn't seem too bad to me. No work involved either.No travelling. No tax return involved.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 05:27 PM

its not easy living on 120 euros a week however if this had happened tp me between 1976 and 2015 , i would be destitute, my sympathy to all those younger musicians.
I hope that the Carthys get better soon and are managing moneywise

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 06:01 PM

As far as I can make out to date, the "coffee" fund for them has raised just shy of fifty grand. Unless I'm missing something.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 06:02 PM

UK pensions are not generous!

Commons Library Briefing; A comparison of state pension alone shows the UK providing a lower level of pension than most other advanced economies relative to average earnings. However, the relative position of pensioners converges if income from all sources is considered.

In addition, the state pension age in the UK one of oldest in Europe.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 06:08 PM

The boss tells me that the actual donation page shows the figure stands at £9887 from 2314 supporters as at 11pm 15 January 2022.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 06:33 PM

Eliza is gonna have a lotta cups of coffee, bless her.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 07:02 PM

I'm in the camp that feels the Carthys have done a LOT for the UK folk scene (as well as British Isles music), and richly deserve any support we can give them. Also, remember that Norma has been seriously ill and unable to work for more than ten years now, and caring for her has had an impact on how much time Martin and Liza could spare for gigging, long before Covid hit.

A friend of mine tweeted the following, and I don't think he'll mind my excerpting it here:
"When I was first discovering the folk scene, over 30 years ago, more than one folk club organiser told me the story of the night Martin Carthy saved their club.

"Even as audiences were declining, Martin would fill any club, and if the club was struggling, he'd often do it for a very low fee. He didn't have to. He didn't have to walk away from Steelye Span to go back to playing solo gigs in small rooms above pubs.

"He didn't have to put all the songs he made out of fragments into the public domain. He doesn't have to greet everyone who recognises him like an old friend. He could, so easily have taken the same road as Bob Dylan... or Paul Simon, both of whose talent just about matches his.

"But of course he didn't. He wouldn't be the Martin so many of us know and love, if he had done that...

"Right now, the entire Carthy family in Robin Hood's Bay: Martin, Norma, Eliza and her kids have Covid. The pandemic has completely buggered their ability to gig and put food on the table..."

Here's a proper link to the Guardian article in the original post and here – for those who are so inclined – is a proper link to the fundraiser, along with the accompanying text:

"Right now the Carthy family, as many others, is struggling to survive the pandemic. Martin and Norma are 80 and 82, Norma being unable to perform for years due to illness. She is currently in hospital with pneumonia. Eliza and her two young children moved back home to help care for her 11 years ago; for the last 2 the family's income has dried up. There have been almost no concerts, club dates or festivals: everything has been moved.

"They urgently need funds to tide them over until the pandemic lifts and Martin and Eliza can return to touring and again become self sufficient. During the pandemic Eliza recorded a new album. Once touring resumes there will be that extra income stream plus the small income derived from the limited releases of the Waterson Family Archive. Until then the family is hard-pressed, and any donations you can make will be greatly appreciated."

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 07:27 PM

I'm glad to help, and a little shocked at the unkindness in this thread. It doesn't take much to give a little back to some musicians who have given so much to others, and who have helped shape the music that we love. We owe a debt to people like Martin Carthy, and I'm glad for the opportunity to pay of it. Yes, others are in need too, and we give in our own ways when and how we can.

If you don't like the idea of a gift, consider go watching one of their online concerts, or some YouTube videos. Enjoy the music - and then pay for it. It's the least we can do.

Dan

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 07:32 PM

Just counting legs and dividing by two here:
2329 supporters bought
9936 cups@
£5ea. =
£49.680

RE all the rest: Copypasta & search “Kevin Kelly” + “1000 true fans”

It's actually pretty bogus fiscal business planning for a working artist but for one-ended charity cases like this, cyberspace is really hard to beat.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 08:18 PM

Clarity is required!

There's very little unkindness in this thread. There's a fair bit of umming and ahhing but there's also a lot of support. My view is that I haven't got the right to ask intrusive questions about the precise circumstances of the family. On the other hand, very little has been voluntarily divulged. It's fine for them to ask. It's fine for us to give (or not). It's also fine for us to discuss and to consider the wider national context. There's not a hint of unkindness in any of that. This very evening I've been reassuring some friends that I know that hardship is around the corner for them as a result of the energy price hike and that I'm here for them if needed. Times a million, eh? That's the wider context for me.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,Liz Milner
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 08:31 PM

The Carthy/Waterson Family have brought so much joy and fine music into my life that I feel privileged to contribute to this fundraiser. It's a shame that the U.K. and U.N. don't do more to conserve human artistic treasures.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 08:32 PM

£49,890 currently.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 08:38 PM

Keep in mind that the page says "[coffee' cup]x 9978"
If you investigate, 1 coffee = £5
(Actually, Phil said it first.)

Everyone in that family earns money by gigging, and they can't gig. But the amount raised so far is a good reflection on how many people's lives they have touched.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 09:01 PM

Copied from the Ko-Fi page: "Right now the Carthy family, as many others, is struggling to survive the pandemic. Martin and Norma are 80 and 82, Norma being unable to perform for years due to illness. She is currently in hospital with pneumonia. Eliza and her two young children moved back home to help care for her 11 years ago; for the last 2 the family's income has dried up. There have been almost no concerts, club dates or festivals: everything has been moved. They urgently need funds to tide them over until the pandemic lifts and Martin and Eliza can return to touring and again become self sufficient. During the pandemic Eliza recorded a new album. Once touring resumes there will be that extra income stream plus the small income derived from the limited releases of the Waterson Family Archive. Until then the family is hard-pressed, and any donations you can make will be greatly appreciated."

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 10:11 PM

I suppose really that's why the Paul Simon/Scarborough Fair business is so important. Paul did use almost note for note that exquisite accompaniment written by Martin and if he'd paid what they were worth - presumably the Carthy family would be living in opulence.

Its a very public piece of wrongdoing. Possibly not intentional by two young men who weren't thinking of 60 years hence.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 04:15 AM

Following on from Big Al's point, Martin isn't a songwriter so I suppose won't be getting anything from PRS.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 05:59 AM

Well its none of my business. But I suppose he does get performance rights by the phonographic lot. That should be enough to keep his budgie in comfort, if not luxury.

My point was that both bob Dylan and Paul Simon, morally at least, owe him a shitload of money.

I think we can assume that this a genuine plea for help from people we all respect. However the people I've met on mudcat fall into two main categories those completely skint, and those completely mingy.

However in Dylan and Simon we have two great artists famous for being generous citizens of the world.

Doesn't anyone know how to contact them? I get the impression from some mudcatters, they are always in and out of each others abodes for a cup of sugar.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 06:01 AM

Rubbish

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 06:17 AM

Bonzo , i am not sure what you are referring to
I have Martins phone numbers and postal adress , he is a friend of mine, but i do not put it up here, if you pm me i will give it to you, Al.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 06:19 AM

my specialist subject....

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 06:53 AM

re prs i would have thought martin gets prs for his trad arr recordings, of which there are of course many. but he's hardly ever on the mainstream radio, so i guess it won't add up to much.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 08:23 AM

its okay I contributed my pittance on Liza's website.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 08:37 PM

I have a friend in the neighborhood who just turned 100 years old. She shares the family home with a daughter and son-in-law, and all three of them are disabled. The daughter is not afraid to ask for help, and sometimes I think she asks for too much. So my friend wants $10,000 to build a kitchen so her daughter doesn't have to go upstairs to the main kitchen - and I have to think this is a reasonable request and I'm going to give $2,500 toward this. It's always a question whether a request is legitimate, but I tend to err on the side of generosity.
I had hoped to support the Waterson-McCarthy family through donations at the January 22 Martin Carthy concert, but this thread took off and now I'm not sure what to do.
I'm looking for the best way to get my donation to the Waterson-Carthy family and make it clear that this is in gratitude for all that this family has done for folk music all over the world.
Thank you, Martin and Norma and Eliza and everyone.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 09:34 PM

Joe, I don't know if the concert donations go 100% to Martin Carthy, or how difficult donation is. I donated through Ko-Fi. They get 100%, and it was very, very easy, though PayPal. I don't suppose that, all things being equal, it matters as long as they get the money.

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 01:55 AM

You're a very nice person Joe, and if its that religion (that so many on mudcat have been sniffy about) that helps you be so nice. Sod 'em!

Subject: RE: Carthy Family needs assistance
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 02:56 AM

Let it be said, Martin Carthy, over the years has supported Folk clubs by making surprise appearances to get them started - like the Minchinhampton FC in Gloucs.

One Folk Festival I attended 30+ years ago and knew the organiser and the machinations. He was far too ambitious. His comment was "one artist refused the fee, after looking at the size of the audience". The organiser had known the Watersons in his days in Hull. And Carthy was on the bill. Given his well known generosity I assumed it would have been him.

Eliza was there as a 14 year-old toying with a mandolin, though not on stage.