Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me

Subject: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dhubh/Turn ye to me
From: GUEST,Liz Milner
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 09:23 PM

Does anybody have backstory on the Gaelic Song "Ho, Ro Mhairi Dhubh" which became the English "Turn Ye to Me?"

Published in Alexander Campbell's "Albyn's Anthology", 1816, p.54 and credited to "a female maniac."

I don't know if my Gaelic speaking friends were pulling my leg or not, but said the song was about somebody begging Mary not to go to Edinburgh because they'd make fun of her because she had a hunch back and spoke Gaelic.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 15 Jan 22 - 11:30 PM

More background on this thread

DTStudy: Turn Ye to Me

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Subject: RE: Origins: Ho-ro Mhairi Dhubh/Turn ye to me
From: Felipa
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 12:54 PM

https://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book-collections/archive/75850527
Turn Ye to Me (by John Wilson aka Christopher North) and Air Feasgar Ciuin Ceitean (On a Quiet May Evening, by Malcolm MacFalane aka Calum MacPhàrlain, 1853–1931) are two short lyrics set to the tune of an older song Horo Mhàiri Dhubh. I could translate MacFarlane's lines thus,:
One May evening as I descended the mountains, I stepped lightly on the ground, The sun was shining pleasantly in the skies, And the birds on the branches were singing a song, The burn poured into the river vigorously and musically, The trees were in leaf and the vegetation was attractive, The mountains and glens surrounded me in glorious beauty.

Here is a modern recording of HoRo Mhàirí Dhubh by "The Campbells of Greepe" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdVn_JPwzP4

Here is a set of lyrics for Horo Mhairi Dhubh from Henry Whyte aka "Fionn" (1852-1913), "the Celtic Garlands of Gaelic Songs and Readings" (3rd edition, 1920). I haven't compared it yet with The Campbells of Greepe recording, but their lyrics do accord with the bit given by MacFarlane in his introduction to Turn ye to me and Air feasgar ciuin Ceitean.

Boro Mhàir Dhubh

Cha dean mi car feum ma thréigeas mo leanann mi
Ho-ro, Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium, A bhean a chul dualaich's nan cuachagan camagach ; Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium ;
A Mhàiri na'n tigeadh tu, thaitneadh tu rium,
A Mhàiri na'n tigeadh tu, thaitneadh tu rium,
Sa Mhàiri na'n tigeadh tu, B'e do bheath, againn thu
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium.

Ma chaill mise m' eudail 's neo-eibhinn a bhithcas mi
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium,
Ag ionndrainn na h-òighe bha bòidheach 's sgiobalta,
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndadh rium ;
O tarruing an taobh so a ghaoil tha mi 'g ràdh
O tarruing an taobh so — cha'n fhaod mi bhi slàn.
Na'n tilleadh mo leannan-sa
'S mise bhiodh aighearach.
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium.

An cuala sibh 'n sgeula gu'n tainig mo leannan-sa,
Thainig mo Mhàiri is tionndaidh i rium,
Tha mise làn éibhneis — cha tréig ise tuille mi
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhiubh thionndaidh thu rium!
A Mhàiri o'n thainig thu tha mi lan mùirn,
A Mhàiri dhubh bhanail 's tu m' aighear 's mo run,
Og-chuspair mo leannanachd,
Dh'aisig dhomh fallaineachd,
Màiri, mo Mhàiri dhubh, thionndaidh i rium !

In the first two verses the poet sings of missing Màiri (the word changes to Mhàri, with an initial V sound, when she is being addressed, "a Mhàri" and in the possesive, my/mo Mhàiri). In the third verse he rejoices that Mary has come to him. I see no mention of Edinburgh, a hunchback, or even of speaking Gaelic.

The same lyrics were again published in vol 17 of An Cumann Gaelach journal "Deo-Gréine" 1921-22: https://digital.nls.uk/an-comunn-gaidhealach/archive/127171161

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho-Ro Mhairi Dhubh/Turn ye to me
From: Felipa
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 01:18 PM

the previous post has a typo in the song title, which should read Ho-ro MHAIRI DHUBH, ho-ro black haired Mairi. Mairi is being addressed, "a Mhairi" (like yo, Mary or hey, Mary in English but required in Gaelic) and we drop out the a because of the o that comes before it, sort of a contraction - or maybe ho-ro functions like "a" here?)

The previous discussion thread includes these lines, which are not given in the three sources l put links to in the present discussion thread.

Nuair theid thu ’Dhuneidin se luchd Beurla ’bheir aire dhuit;
Ho ro Mhàiri dhu' ! tionndaidh rium !
Bithidh croitaichean ard g' an carnadh air anairt dhuit;
Ho ro Mhàiri dhu' ! tionndaidh rium !

When you go to Edinburgh, it's the English speaking people who will notice you
ho-ro Màiri, turn to me
Tall humpbacks piling round you[like linens on a clothes line?]

this verse is published on its own in the Gesto Collection of Highland Music, so maybe it is a parody. It could make sense, however, in the context of someone imploring Màirí not to leave, not to go way to Edinburgh.
https://digital.nls.uk/special-collections-of-printed-music/archive/105823220

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: Felipa
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 01:23 PM

another typo, MacFalane should read MacFarlane

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 04:07 PM

I am still looking for the words to the second verse of the recording by The Campbells of Greepe on their album No.2 Greepe (2014)


Horo Mhàiri dhubh


Cha dean mi car feum ma thréigeas mo leanann mi;
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium!
A bhean a chul dualaich's nan cuachagan camagach;
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium!

Sèist:
Sa Mhàiri na'n tigeadh tu, thaitneadh tu rium,
Sa Mhàiri na'n tigeadh tu, thaitneadh tu rium!
Sa Mhàiri na'n tigeadh tu, B'e do bheath, againn thu;
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium!

(verse 2 line 1)?
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium!
(verse 2 line 3)?
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium!

(Sèist)

Nuair theid thu ’Dhuneidin se luchd heurla ’bheir aire dhuit;
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium!
Bithidh croitaichean ard g' an carnadh air anairt dhuit;
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium!

(Sèist)

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Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: GUEST,Rory
Date: 16 Jan 22 - 04:26 PM

Joe,
could these two threads be merged.

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I closed the DTStudy thread for now, and I'll sort it out eventually. It is not a good practice to have two threads open at the same time on any given topic - it confuses the discussion. DTStudy threads are not meant for discussion - they are meant to be relatively sparse collections of definitive information gleaned from other threads.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: GUEST,Liz Milner
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 11:53 AM

Thank you, Felipa and Rory. I love the image of the hunchback looking like a pile of linen. No wonder the creator of the song is described as a "female lunatic."

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho- Ro Mhairi Dhubh/Turn ye to me
From: Felipa
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 01:21 PM

Liz, it's plural, a group of hunchbacks. As I wrote, since they are "tall hunchbacks"; I think they are probably not real hunchbacks but people who are imagined as hunched over when they are either staring at or hanging over Máiri Dhubh. Be sure to see the other thread for more information.

I know how to contact one of the Kennedy family re their recording, hopefully to get an answer to Rory's query about the recording, and to resolve my own difficulties translating one line of the chorus. I may leave it to Linn P, whom Liz asked personally about helping us learn this song, to do that communication as well as to chose which verses from the different publications to make "our own". So I expect to get back to the thread with some answers, hopefully within a few weeks.

The modern spelling of "Bithidh" (will be) is "Bidh". Either is acceptable.
Beurla, the English language, starts with a B, not an h. The letter "h" is just above "b" on the keyboard, so it's an easy typo to make.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: Felipa
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 06:36 PM

https://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/track/24722 sung by
Matheson, Rev. William, 1910-1995, from the Isle of Lewis, who learned the song from printed sources. verses 1 and 3 from the Gesto Collection p19. Middle verse from the John MacGregor MSS in Register House.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: RunrigFan
Date: 17 Jan 22 - 07:11 PM

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Collected_Poems_and_Songs_of_George_Camp/46UxEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Horo+Mh%C3%A0iri+dhubh&pg=PA374&printsec=frontcover

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: BobL
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 04:09 AM

This brings back memories - learned the song at primary school. At that age, when new words were too frequent for in-depth study, I wasn't too bothered about what "merridew" meant.
Now after seventy years, I've found out.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: Felipa
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 12:31 PM

re the discussion between Silly River Sage and Runrig Fan (17 Jan), I gather that Silly River Sage did copy to his browser, but the page RunrigFan gave a link to is unviewable because the preview of the poetry book only extends to page 99. A search shows you what page the poem about Máiri Dhubh is on, but the page is blank on the screen. I gather this is a 20th century poem by George Campbell Hay (1915–1984), but it would be interesting to see if Hay's poem retains the structure and chorus of older versions of Ho-ro Mháiri Dhubh,in which case it could be sung. Or perhaps the poem is even a comment on the story of the simple woman of Skye who is said to have composed verses of the song. So I would like to read it, but so far have not been able to find a viewable source online. RunrigFan has let us known the poem exists, and a book it can be found in.

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I fixed the link and deleted the messages discussing its faultiness. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: Felipa
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 12:58 PM

If anyone is interested in an Esperanto translation of the song Turn Ye to Me (aka The Sea Mew), see https://archive.org/details/kantaro-esperanta/page/48/mode/2up. It is on page 49 of Kantaro Esperanta compiled by Montagu C. Butler, published by the British Esperanto Association in 1926.

There you will also see Esperanto translations of Robbie Burns' songs: Green Grow the Rashes, Ae Fond Kiss and Scots Wha Hae.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dhubh/Turn ye to me
From: Felipa
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 02:14 PM

It seems the tale of a strange woman composing Ho-ro Mháiri Dhubh appears to be well known.

https://archive.org/details/cu31924105428738/
Principal Shairp and his friends (1888) by Knight, William Angus, 1836-1916; St. John, Cynthia Morgan, 1852-1919
Page 108 tells of being entertained by the singing of a Mrs. Murray Gartshore of Kintulloch:
"Another [song] was the wail of a mad girl, with a refrain , 'Ho ro Mhairi Dhubh turn ye to me ' - if I may be forgiven for perhaps mangling a language which I do not know."

Skye: The Island and its Legends Otta Swire · 2006
books.google.co.uk
p201:
"It was to Mrs. Macpherson of Ostaig that a woman, reputed to have been rather simple, is said to have composed the song 'Ho Ro, Mhairi Dhubh'. This woman may have been 'Old Marcellie', a very well-known character in her day.She was childlike and simple but quite harmless, she dressed always, winter and summer, in white, never spent more than one night under one roof. On arrival she asked for soap and water and washed everything she had on; then and not till then would she eat, talk, and 'wait upon' the lady of the house. A welcome awaited her everywhere, for was she not the BBC and the local newspaper rolled into one? Her surname is forgotten but she was believed to be kin to almost every family in the island."

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: Felipa
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 05:14 PM

Joe, the link you say you repaired is still not useful, as the page with Horo Mháiri Dhubh is not viewable in the preview. It says that "pages 254-374 are not viewable on this link". In the table of contents, I found that the song is on item no. 319, on page 3y4, so if anyone has access to the book they can look that up. And I did make some progress in doing a search ... I saw that the poem is said to be a reworking, "ath-dheanamh", of an old song. And the lines that I was allowed to see in the snippet, which says "preview not available, were ones we already have on this Mudcat discussion, so are not written by George Campbell Hay.:
Cha dean mi car feum ma thréigeas mo leanann mi;
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium!
A bhean a chul dualaich's nan cuachagan camagach;
Ho-ro Mhàiri dhubh, tionndaidh rium!

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: Felipa
Date: 18 Jan 22 - 05:20 PM

I forgot to say that the date given for George Campbell Hay's rendition is 1980-82. The book is an anthology, so the dates probable refer to first publication of the writings.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dubh/Turn ye to me
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 05:55 PM

Lots of versions in English on YouTube; from The Corries to John McCormack, Paul Robeson, and - can’t find it- but I know that Jean Redpath recorded it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Ho, Ro Mhairi Dhubh/Turn ye to me
From: Felipa
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 08:37 AM

The performers Tattie Boggle refers to recorded Turn Ye to Me. That song uses the tune and chorus of Ho Ro Mháiri Dhubh. And "Turn ye to me" is a translation of "tionndaidh rium". But the verses are NOT a translation of any of the Gaelic verses. Tattie Bogle's information would probably fit better on the DTStudy: Turn Ye to Me thread but that thread is closed to new comments.