Where have all the folkies gone?

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 20 Feb 22 - 05:02 AM

> However, and to its benefit, the Blues genre has not decided to cling so tightly to its past traditions but rather, it has allowed itself the freedom to be transformed and move beyond the past in many ways and in doing so, transformed the greater world of contemporary music like no other genre ever has.

That seems to me to describe how "folk" has evolved too; from Cecil Sharp's piano arrangements via folk-rock and singer-songwriters to EFDSS's current promotion of "folk art" (which means newly-written material). We're entitled to our personal likes and dislikes among all that, but it has certainly "move(d) beyond the past in many ways".

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Feb 22 - 06:03 PM

I don't sing very often but there are plenty of opportunities outwith folk clubs. About half the public sessions I get to (and most of the private house events) mix singing and instrumentals.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 22 - 11:40 AM

Jack, I get the impression that you are more interested in playing an instrument than singing, Folk clubs are primarily about singing or attempting to sing.
I do not know what a jazzie is , I know what a cuntie is, THEY often wear cowboy hats and sing in American accents ABOUT THE BLACK HILLS OF KILLARNEY

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Feb 22 - 05:36 AM

I think its still a scary time, particularly if you are old, ill and vulnerable and frightened of getting Covid.

I bet many genres of entertainment must be going through a lean time.

I notice they've stopped giving us a daily tally of all those killed by the disease.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 22 - 05:08 AM

surely you don't need to play an instrument to be a folkie?

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 22 - 06:12 AM

And even in my older age-group, I can think of some who, having learned an instrument, spend every bit of spare time at sessions but rarely attend any clubs or “spectator sport”.

That would be me. I've been playing folk music since the mid-60s and never felt folk clubs had much to do with it. The age group of the people I've played with has widened over the decades but the lower end hasn't shifted that much. I'd have had a very different impression if I'd frequented institutions where people thought real ale had anything to with music or that possession of a brand-name guitar with a cool model number would make it more memorable.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 17 Feb 22 - 04:04 AM

Reggie: I wasn't being entirely serious. I know the question is one that could potentially lead to an endless and fruitless dispute, like "what is folk?". I happen to agree with the first part of what you said. As far as the second part is concerned, well, you play blues in public whereas it's not really my thing.

On Deutschlandfunk, there is a regular program called "Lied- und Folkgeschichte(n)" ("Song and Folk Story (Stories)"):
https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/lied-und-folkgeschichte-n-100.html
Unfortunately, there's no English translation.

Normally, it's on once a month, but there were none from September to November 2021. I've heard at least one, but I don't usually listen to it.

I've looked over the previous broadcasts and according to my definition (the only correct one, of course), NONE of them contained folk. Here are a few sample phrases from the descriptions of the broadcasts:

"Mobile samplers and loopers"

"the Chansons of Jacques Brel" (I love them, but they're not folk.)

"slam-poetry passages in the songs"

"is it retro bluegrass, indie folk or Americana Pop?"

"whether on the street or the club, X is creative, surprising, mostly
barefoot" Barefoot, on the street? Or on a stage where there can be nails? Does OSHA know about this?

"with their Folk-Pop-Rock-New-Age interpretations ..."

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: voyager
Date: 16 Feb 22 - 04:23 PM

coreection to typoed text ...Abbie Hoffman and Paul Krassner - clown princes of the antiwar movement ...Old Yippees never die, they just go underground"

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: voyager
Date: 16 Feb 22 - 04:17 PM

Yippee epitaph for Abbie Hoffman and Paul Krassner - clown princes of the sntiwar movement ... 'old Yippees MN ever die ... they just go underground'.

voyager

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,Roger.
Date: 16 Feb 22 - 03:48 PM

We're still here. Just getting older and playing with ourselves!

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: reggie miles
Date: 16 Feb 22 - 01:22 PM

Piers Plowman:

"Oh, and there are quite a few programs about blues on the radio currently, weekly in fact. Is that folk?"

Well, I'd say we'd be opening another can of worms to get into a discussion about whether Blues may or may not be considered Folk. I think that Blues has its roots in the Folk music tradition and that it maintains some of the elements of that tradition even today in some forms of the genre. However, and to its benefit, the Blues genre has not decided to cling so tightly to its past traditions but rather, it has allowed itself the freedom to be transformed and move beyond the past in many ways and in doing so, transformed the greater world of contemporary music like no other genre ever has.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 02:23 PM

Traditional music isn't dead. I doubt if that is within the considerable pwers of of the current perpetrators.

I just think, its cowering in places where BBC4 can't reach it.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 02:09 PM

There's nothing wrong with older people feeling and expressing nostalgia for their own youth. But declaring traditional music dead when it's obviously thriving, and spewing misinformation and disinformation will understandably make young folkies avoid the people who deliberately do this and the places that promote them.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 01:32 PM

Theres a difference.

Someone once sad (C Day Lewis maybe....) If I'm playing cards I'd rather play with someone who simply doesn't cheat, rather than someone who is serious about not cheating.

Moral earnestness is no guarantee of being right.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 01:00 PM

* Correction: the play Folk was staged at Hampstead Theatre from 18 Dec 2021 to 5 Feb 2022.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 12:56 PM

And I'm sure the play Folk, from 2021, will be repeated or eventually fully staged:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000vwq2

(Bit off the folk club subject but I can't resist recommending good stuff.)

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 12:37 PM

Ah, yes, that bygone golden age, when "folksongs were happening in drama". Alas, alack, we weep for what we have irretrievably lost since - checks notes - 2007....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Horse_(play)

And how could young people, inheriting a living participatory tradition, who can literally see multiple generations of famous folkie families playing together on stage, possibly have any sense of history, lmao.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 09:11 AM

Well I think it was more to the contrary. The era was part of a whole raft of cultural 'happenings'. Folksongs were happening in drama - John Arden, Wesker, etc. Seeger was writing about the age of the H -bomb that was upon us every day in the news.

And the guys who could do it professionally to any standard at all were small. I remember Harvey Andrews reminiscing that there were very few in the '60's who could do two whole sets.

But what those guys did - those few - they planted a seed.

It became possible to buy a Yamaha guitar for half the price of those Harmony Sovreigns and and a tenth the price of a Gibson. Demand was created and someone decided decided to supply it.

The multiplicity of acousyic musicians that we see nowadays are a consequence of those of us who sat, enviously watching in folk clubs. And just as we never thought of ourselves as the inheritors of Vaughan Williams etc.- they don't see the connection to us, two generations earlier.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 05:52 AM

As with UK banks and Post Offices.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 22 - 05:09 AM

It's an old business trick
    1 You want to stop providing a service or goods

    2 Restrict the supply of the service or goods & apply intermittent breaks in service and goods shortage- ie general unreliability.

    3 Customers find an alternative

    4 Some customers ask specifically for for the old service or goods

    5 Tell these customers there is no demand

    6 withdraw the service or goods completely.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 12:27 PM

> Protesting when 15 or 20 years ago NDR scrapped their last half-hour folk programme (10.30 pm on a Saturday)

I don't remember this program at all. Was it NDR Info? Up until recently they had a program with rock music, "Nachtclub (Nightclub) Extra", with rotating specialties at 11:00 PM on Saturdays. I often liked "Nachtclub Classics". There was a very good program about Gary Brooker and Procul Harum shortly before the recent change when they went to all news.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 12:21 PM

Oh, and there are quite a few programs about blues on the radio currently, weekly in fact. Is that folk?

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 12:19 PM

Yes, I do live in Germany (Göttingen). And with respect to "folk" in the sense of this forum, I was thinking of Deutschlandfunk (DLF). They play "world music" on HR2 (Hessischer Rundfunk), though not as much as they used to. I think they may play some folk in the course of that. They also have a program on every evening "Hörbar" that may also have some folk on it. I never listen to it because they always play things I hate among some things I quite like.

As far as "Volksmusik" is concerned, I'm pretty sure they have it on the radio and I'm virtually certain it's still on the TV (ZDF). However, if it ever came onto my radio, I would get out of a hot bath to turn it off.

You're right about NDR Kultur. They never play folk, except they did play Joan Baez singing "It Ain't Me, Babe" about half an hour ago.

I recall a "Lange Nacht" ("long night") on DLF about the famous concert at Burg Waldeck a couple of years ago (the program, not the concert).

Laurence Finston

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,Susanne (skw)
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 10:34 AM

Piers Plowman, do you live in Germany? Or who told you the yarn about folk music on German radio? Other than DLF on occasion, as far as I am aware they all stopped doing folk music years ago because they found - surprise, surprise - not enough people were interested. We tried in vain to explain that a public station should feel responsible for also (or even particularly) catering for minority interests that the private stations refused to cater for. Protesting when 15 or 20 years ago NDR scrapped their last half-hour folk programme (10.30 pm on a Saturday) got us nowhere, so I have to fall back on my disc collection and the occasional gig or festival. Germany is no folkies paradise!

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,Guest - hazel
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 10:11 AM

Sadly I haven't been in a folk club for years now.Do they still exist. I was part of the Leeds scene in my younger days when there were clubs going nearly every night of the week if you could travel around the area. From the Adelphi and the Grove out to the Maypole at Barwick. As one musical genre has led to another across my life. I now find myself an enthusiastic choral singer! I still want to sing the words though when I hear some of the Vaughn William orchestral pieces which originated in folk songs .. 'A fine young man it was indeed ..'

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Feb 22 - 06:12 AM

 Very funny, Jim!  

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 03:52 PM

I've always regarded the term folkie as a pejorative term anyway- I appreciate the work done on traditional music by the early collectors and revivalists, BUT   

right from my early days, I certainly did not want to be associated with the folkies, with their pewter mugs and hippie tendencies, it seemed to be a southern fad anyway, anathema to a loyal Geordie!

Most of the folk club people I met in the NE were quite normal, drinking out of straight glasses, lefties & Guardian readers all(nowt wrong with that, I'm one & don't wear sandals nor do I eat muesli) but I certainly wasn't about be saddled with the folkie label.

I always wanted to grow a beard and loved the Clancy Brothers' Aran sweaters, but deliberately avoided these two marks of the folkie. I gave in to the beard idea after a long stay in hospital in 1981 & found Le Tricoteur sweaters in Guernsey- much better than Aran & less baggage!

- Never mind where did all the folkies go, whatever happened to all those pewter mugs hanging from straining belts?

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 10:47 AM

The OP’s question was more about where are all the young people in folk clubs? It’s true, not many in the audiences unless their pals happen to be performing on stage, and then they’ll hope to get in free on a “guest list”! The whole age spectrum of folk club audiences has changed since the “folk revival” of the 1960s when it was young people who started up, organised, attended and performed in the many folk clubs then. The people themselves are the same ones, only now 50-60 years older. “Succession” has been a problem in keeping some clubs going; no-one younger volunteering to carry on when these older folk want to step down, or are forced to do so by illness, infirmity or the inevitable. And so another club dies.
As Al and others have said, there are plenty of talented young musicians about, but they seem mainly prefer playing in pub sessions or hoping for paid gigs in clubs or festivals rather than spectating or helping to run clubs. (Of course, there are a few notable and commendable exceptions to any such sweeping generalisation, and some are involved in teaching yet more budding instrumentalists.)
In our area, we are lucky in having a good number of thriving folk clubs, and they have largely survived the Covid pandemic, most of them beginning to meet in person again : some of them shut down for the duration, others continued on Zoom, Facebook, etc. But there are certainly not as many as there were 50 years ago.
And even in my older age-group, I can think of some who, having learned an instrument, spend every bit of spare time at sessions but rarely attend any clubs or “spectator sport”.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 08:42 AM

Interestingquestion.

I've always thought, it was an artistic movement which came and went and is in the process of being gone.

It was a time. And you can't sum it up in just talking about the music. Obviously music will continue - however much the authorities try to suppress it.

But didn't it also have something to do with those ratty old pubs we used to crowd into. However much you revive and posh up an old pub, somehow its not the same.

Something also about the people. There was something of Hancock about bohemian characters like Johnny Handle, Hamish Imlach, Derek Brimstone. I mean they weren't candidates for Britains Got Talent.

I think it had something to do about the wars of the 20th century, the crumbling industries - the rootlessness of us all. The lives we tried to lead and failed for the most part. Also the rarity of good instruments. Ownership of a a Gibson J200 by Alex Campbell made him an incredibly glamorous presence, quite beyond the aspirations of anyone I knew.

I suppose someone will say - well I know some thrilling youngsters who play quite beyond the ability of those old farts. Well yes, I'd have to agree. But given the limited horizons most us (in England) faced, I think it took more of a powerful imagination in those days to dream of being s folksinger.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 08:42 AM

* Correction: the waulking scene was from the Outlander tv series (not Highlander). I did mention that I don't watch telly, lol.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 08:30 AM

Reposted to sign.

Robin said, "In my opinion it is helpful to interest younger singers to have some lighter material around and not all the darker, high death count stuff."

That's an interesting perspective. I agree in one sense, that on the instrumental side younger people often seem to gravitate first towards dance music and other higher energy and more upbeat styles. Of course, this might be exaggerated by the fact that in many parts of the UK and Ireland it's often easier to get an audience and maybe even your first paid gig playing ceilidh music or the local equivalent.

I disagree about the songs though. The Young'uns engaged early on with political material which is often not exactly cheery (and so does Alice Jones and so do Granny's Attic all mentioned above). The most successful non-traditional English folk band of recent years (I'm showing my age here) is the Levellers who were politically focussed. This thread, of course, needs some younger people to give their opinions.

The single biggest factor in the unusually successful outreach of my own local session, apart from us being welcoming to younger people, is probably the simple fact we always have a borrowable guitar, and now also a fiddle, so car-free youngsters or students temporarily back from university have the opportunity to join in without lugging an instrument around.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 08:30 AM

Robin said, "In my opinion it is helpful to interest younger singers to have some lighter material around and not all the darker, high death count stuff."

That's an interesting perspective. I agree in one sense, that on the instrumental side younger people often seem to gravitate first towards dance music and other higher energy and more upbeat styles. Of course, this might be exaggerated by the fact that in many parts of the UK and Ireland it's often easier to get an audience and maybe even your first paid gig playing ceilidh music or the local equivalent.

I disagree about the songs though. The Young'uns engaged early on with political material which is often not exactly cheery (and so does Alice Jones and so do Granny's Attic all mentioned above). The most successful non-traditional English folk band of recent years (I'm showing my age here) is the Levellers who were politically focussed. This thread, of course, needs some younger people to give their opinions.

The single biggest factor in the unusually successful outreach of my own local session, apart from us being welcoming to younger people, is probably the simple fact we always have a borrowable guitar, and now also a fiddle, so car-free youngsters or students temporarily back from university have the opportunity to join in without lugging an instrument around.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 08:17 AM

I don't believe videos on youtube are a good measure of young folkie activity (they're currently more likely to use TikTok - remember the recent sea shanty craze?). But purely out of curiosity I googled the most traditional Scottish Gaelic music form that immediately sprang to mind: waulking. I don't watch telly but those of you who do will probably already know that I was surprised by a sudden popularity of waulking songs in US media, lol.

So, there are many videos of traditional waulking. There's GCSE (General Certificate of Secondary Education) study material based on the Capercaillie recording from 2000. There are clips from the Highlander tv series, lol, and also from a film Outlaw King. There are, oddly, several young men engaging with the music in both traditional ways, Seán Heely (award winning young USian fiddler) and Dàibhidh Stiùbhard (Irish self-described "traditional" singer), and even two electronic dance tracks, an original by Totally Enormous Extinct Dinosaurs (English-USian) and a remix by Lone (English).

Doesn't look like a dying tradition uninteresting to young people to me. In fact, the music seems to have outlived its original purpose and achieved a global reach, thanks to the communities who shared their heritage with collectors (a questionable process, of course, but that's a different discussion).

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 05:44 AM

I'm well aware of the activities of CCE, Ireland is a rare exception in state funding of traditional music, and look at the standard of traditional musicians in Ireland compared to almost anywhere else in the Western world, and their success in exporting their music world-wide.
How much funding does EFDSS or TMSA in Scotland receive in comparison ?

"Highland Cathedral" - no matter how many times it turns up on Youtube - is not traditional music, far less Scottish traditional music.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 03:41 AM

Re Lumley Kettlewell mentioned above, it's a good one for Darwin Day (12 Feb) and I did it the other night. I learnt it from Graham Pratt in the 70s.

In my opinion it is helpful to interest younger singers to have some lighter material around and not all the darker, high death count stuff.

Robin

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 22 - 03:41 AM

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 05:20 AM

Traditional music well funded ? Ha, ha , ha - except it's not funny."

---

comparitevely speaking it is well funded in ireland
In Ireland young people play traditional music, and are encouragedto do so CCE has Funding

The day to day activities of Comhaltas are funded partly by members, partly from the proceeds of events such as Fleadhanna and partly from a grant from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts Gaeltacht, Sports and Media.

Also Comhaltas is currently in receipt of grant funding from the Government of Ireland – Emigrant Support Programme, coordinated by the Department of Foreign Affairs, to support its activities in Britain, North America, Japan, Melbourne, Sydney, Brazil and Luxembourg.
Government Funding         2019 (€)         2020 (€)
Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sports & Media         1,600,000         2,001,000
Government of Ireland - Emigrant Support Programme ( Department of Foreign Affairs)         249,535         249,529

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 10:27 PM

> As pay-subscriber satellite radio began to show up in cars years ago, folk was revived, if only to increase the number of channels they could brag about. These had goofy and awful playlists put together by some clueless person on loan from the world of rock or pop.

Interesting. I have rarely been in a car (strangely enough) since everything on the driver's side became electronic. Do these radios still have mechanical push buttons? Probably not. I loved those.

When I still lived in the Chicago area (before 1991), there was no folk on any of the commercial stations and very little on the one public stations (WBEZ), which specialized in news, spoken word and jazz. One of the two classical music stations, WFMT, had a weekly show with folk, showtunes, novelty songs, etc., called "The Midnight Special", which I used to listen to, with and without my parents, but I eventually stopped, partly because they tended to play the same things over and over.

When I was younger, there was one folk club in my hometown, Evanston, called Amazingrace, which also booked jazz and blues acts and maybe others. At the time, in Evanston, home of the Women's Christian Temperance Union, you were not allowed to open a bar or a liquor store, so Amazingrace didn't serve alchohol, which made it possible for me to attend concerts there. I saw Steve Goodman and Jim Post there a couple of times and Luther Allison, and in fact saw Pat Metheny opening for Bill Evans (!). Amazingrace closed long before I left the Chicago area.

Somehow, I never got to the folk clubs in Chicago, of which there were several: The Earl of Old Town, Somebody Else's Troubles, etc., even after I reached drinking age. The Gate of Horn was before my time. Old Town wasn't so inviting anymore by that time. I think I was there exactly once, in the car with my Dad, driving through it on the way to somewhere else. The "scene" had moved on by then.

By my time (I was born in 1963), folk was easily accessible there, but mostly recordings and performances of the imitators and popularizers. The older, "authentic" performers who had been found and had become active again were often no longer alive or had stopped performing and actual recordings from collections were much less easily accessible
than the versions by younger, professional "folksingers" which were also more easily digestable.

It seems like the imitation is always more popular than the real thing, the imitators are always rewarded more generously than the originals and that the greater part of the audience doesn't want authenticity but rather an illusion of authenticity; not just with "folk" or musical genres in general, but with everything.

It's very instructive to compare the situation in the English-speaking world (nations divided by a common language) with the one in the German-speaking one, but this post is too long already.

Laurence Finston

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: leeneia
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 03:01 PM

There are at least 27 videos on YouTube of the newish tune "Highland Cathedral." Clearly the people of today like and long for traditional music. The audience is there, so keep playing and sharing.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 01:19 PM

Yes Piers, I am in the U.S. Folk music is not broadcast 'on the radio' except for a few scheduled hours here and there on public radio. There is much more coverage in certain isolated metros or college towns. But your average resident of the US has never heard of a folk radio station.

As pay-subscriber satellite radio began to show up in cars years ago, folk was revived, if only to increase the number of channels they could brag about. These had goofy and awful playlists put together by some clueless person on loan from the world of rock or pop.

Now we have an improved environment in some respects, with satellite radio improving I hear, and with people letting spotify or applemusic guide them into hearing new stuff.   Though that can have its own pitfalls with people getting siloed into whatever the algorithm thinks they want.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 07:43 AM

Where did all the folkies come from? Is the change as much about then as now?

In the early sixties when I noticed folk music it stood apart from most of the music that was available for free (almost) on the radio and TV. The nearest I recall to 'music of the people' was the Spinners singing shanties (I liked that) introduced by someone with a plummy PR accent. The first regional accent I heard on the TV was Brian Redhead presenting what I guess was a spin-off of the Radio Ballads broadcast from Manchester. I was a probably too young to have noticed the Radio Ballads. The Watersons documentary that has been linked in many places recently is a reminder of a different world.

Now we tune to local radio and people who talk like us introduce music from all over the world but including from people near to us who might do a gig close by.

When I was a teenager I sought out the local folk club, now I don't need to. So I guess young folk don't either - and we all have more choice. But, as mentioned above, there are some excellent young players and singers.

(first attempt didn't take - glad I saved it!)

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,Diolch
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 07:27 AM

Dave the Gnome was right in his comment above, this video of a Does Your Mother Know cover version by Granny's Attic is great fun, especially the grand finale:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JYyesDdskM

Is it folk? Probably not. Is it talented young musicians having fun with traditional instruments and dance forms? Yes!

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 22 - 05:20 AM

Traditional music well funded ? Ha, ha , ha - except it's not funny.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: reggie miles
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 10:30 PM

GUEST,pattyClink, agreed, the corporate control of the music being shared on radio has limited a lot of options for general listening. That said, this medium, the internet, has been a heavenly gift for the personalized exploration of music of every sort. This and the convenience of being able to carry around your personal playlist everywhere you go via those wonderful handheld devices that the majority of us already have in our pockets, smart phones, has opened a new means of getting music into everyone's ears. So, folks clubs, as a source for discovering or enjoying folk music have become antiquated. Blame tech if you must but there's no stopping the future. There are but three choices to adhere to, adapt to the future, migrate to a place that hasn't been influenced by the future (a bit challenging to do in this modern connected world we live in), or die. This forum is means of adapting to the future, connecting all who venture here to explore a common interest in music. And just look at the way it has succeeded. Marvel at the thousands of posts we each have made to endless conversations here. Change is not something to be feared but rather, embraced.

I also agree with PHJim's comment above. The type of instrument (acoustic or electric) cannot be the dividing line of what defines a musical genre, especially folk music. The only reason that much of the early folk music was played on acoustic instruments was simply because electrically amplified instruments had not yet been invented or popularized.

Roots, Americana... It seems like every time I click the drop down menu, that houses the ever expanding list of genres to choose from, when describing my musical endeavors, I'm stunned by just how many new genres of music are being invented to describe someone's approach. The names are mind-boggling. I have no clue what 95% of them even mean but there they are being touted as something so unique that they demand their own genre title. I don't ever even see a description listed for the way I describe my music (Folk Blues). I am continuously forced to choose something that, to me, doesn't fit as well. Perhaps that's the future telling me to adapt, to choose from among the choices that are available. Or perhaps just invent a completely new genre, which seems to be what everyone else is doing. Perhaps the answer to where interest in folk music has gone is being willing to adapt to the ever changing future of folk music.

I also agree with with the notion that's been expressed about inclusion of younger players. A local coffeehouse started advertising about their open stage in the area high school's music department. It soon became so inundated with younger players, all wanting to share their talents, that I found myself to be among the eldest in attendance. I often couldn't even get on the list, or find a seat. Because there were so many other younger players vying for a chance to strut their stuff. Again, children are the future. We have to embrace what they wish to share.

Many of the folk songs that so many love to share again and again were written long ago. They represent traditions of the past. That past is quickly being buried under the weight of so many other contemporary musical genres being recognized and invented. Instead of disputing what a folk song or folk music is, maybe we should be considering how to better bring it from the past to the present.

I liked reading about how well funded certain traditional music has become. That sort of cultural investment is important and needed. It's a shame that more music can't find the same level of respect and funding to invest in its future.

The longer I live, the more that I recognize that we are all connected by this love of music. More than anything that I can think of, our shared interest in music has managed to cross all cultural and demographic limitations. It crosses all lines on any map, differences in language, racial heritage, spiritual beliefs, political stands, gender roles... It because of this that all of us have found our way here and why we keep coming back to share our mutual love of music.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 10:29 PM

Speaking of kids, the other day I was at a friend's house. When her daughters were small, I gave them recorder lessons for a brief period before they started learning other instruments and lost interest. I continued to try and play music with them when they were (occasionally) so inclined.

One thing I did was to bring my instruments and let them try them out. The oldest liked my trumpet and also was inspired by people from a brass band who went to her school and encouraged kids to join. So now she's 20 and playing with the university jazz group. They don't have enough people for a big band, maybe they're 8-9 people.

While she credits the brass band and not me for inspiring her to take up the trumpet (I remember it differently), when I was over there the other day, she mentioned the jazz CDs that I'd given her over the years on birthdays; Chet Baker, Miles Davis, Clifford Brown. Now that she's in this group, they've become more relevant to her. She also said I was the only person who ever encouraged her to listen to jazz. Her mother is very musical, but strongly specialized on classical music.

On another recent occasion, I mentioned that I've been playing an accordeon. She found this very interesting and suggested we play something together. Now that made me feel good. Sometimes you plant a seed and 13 years later it germinates. Unfortunately, my guitars, banjo, mandolin, etc., leave her completely cold. Maybe if she hears them. And I still have hopes for her two sisters.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 10:06 PM

You certainly have a point. It doesn't make me hate the terms any less, though.

People laughing at folk has been going on since there was folk. The earliest attempt at a folk music collection in Europe was Johann Gottfried Herder's in 1778. He coined the term "Volkslied" ("folksong") in 1771. If you read his introduction, his ideas anticipate those of much later folklorists. Unfortunately, he ran into a lot of criticism and was especially affected by a parody of his collection by Nikolaus Lenau, and ended caving in and changing his methods and criteria and finally getting out of the folk business entirely.

Am I right that you are in the US? In Germany, there is folk on the radio, though only on the public stations. I mean "folk" in the sense meant on this forum in general and not German "Volksmusik", which is a whole other topic. Of course, there are radio stations that play that music and it's on TV. There are still groups that play in a traditional style and I like that music very much, but most of it has very little to do with traditional music and is, in my opinion, awful, with keyboards, full playback and tons of compression.

It's very wrong to marinate kids in current pop. I recommend a mixture of white wine, olive oil, garlic, salt and red pepper.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 07:25 PM

I can't get too mad at Roots or Americana. If it gets any non-pop stuff into the hands of teenagers via playlists for radio or spotify or whatever, that's a good thing.

For too many years, folk has been served up not at home or on neighbor porches, but only in bars where teens aren't allowed, and the occasional festival. And that's the trad tunes; the songs are hidden away til the wee hours, adding another barrier.

This would not have been a problem if kids could have gotten free exposure daily to folkie stuff on the radio, but it was ruled passe for literally decades. So kids now marinate in whatever is considered current pop. It's what is there and what is pushed at them by corporate interests and P.R. flacks.

If anyone can get folk on playlists, great, and if they call it roots or Americana, fine. Lord knows generations have been raised to laugh at the word folk, so what's the point of holding that label high if it causes another generation lost.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 01:51 PM

Diolch. Excellent points. Fully agree.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 01:38 PM

Sorry, in "electric guitar + mike and amp." there's one mike too many.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 01:37 PM

I could never understand why acoustic guitar plus mike and amp = good while electric guitar + mike and amp = bad. What on earth is the difference? People used amplification so that they could be heard in a room full of people. Of course guitarists were thrilled when something that really worked was invented.

I read somewhere that Doc Watson, who had been playing an electric guitar, was advised by someone that he and his musical partners should switch over to acoustic instruments so that people would book him in folk clubs, for folk festivals, etc. The fact that people would listen to someone or not based on whether a guitar is electric or not just shows how much BS there was and is in the entertainment business, which includes folk music, "authentic" or not. People talk about artists/entertainers or entire genres as being "commercial" or not. If you're getting paid, it's commercial.

I think "stuffy and archaic" is well put. When I was young, I didn't question genre labels and just accepted them as being somehow come from on high. Now, "folk" doesn't pull the crowds so they've invented "Roots" and "Americana" --- terms for genres that don't exist and get up my nose every time I hear them.

Subject: RE: Where have all the folkies gone?
From: GUEST,James Phillips
Date: 11 Feb 22 - 12:15 PM

The whole scene comes across as stuffy and archaic to young people. It needs a bit of a kick up the arse, in the same way that bands like Planxty and The Bothy Band revived the scene and rekindled interest in the 70's.