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BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022

robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 02:58 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 22 - 05:12 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 22 - 05:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Feb 22 - 06:00 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 22 - 06:19 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 07:07 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 22 - 07:13 AM
robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 07:40 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Feb 22 - 08:09 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 09:11 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 10:57 AM
meself 24 Feb 22 - 11:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Feb 22 - 12:20 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 12:43 PM
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robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 01:07 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Feb 22 - 01:09 PM
robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 01:23 PM
robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 01:38 PM
robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 01:40 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 04:22 PM
Monique 24 Feb 22 - 06:04 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 22 - 08:57 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 09:52 PM
robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 09:53 PM
keberoxu 24 Feb 22 - 10:11 PM
Donuel 24 Feb 22 - 11:55 PM
Bonzo3legs 25 Feb 22 - 02:20 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Feb 22 - 02:34 AM
Bonzo3legs 25 Feb 22 - 04:54 AM
Bonzo3legs 25 Feb 22 - 05:26 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Feb 22 - 05:28 AM
Senoufou 25 Feb 22 - 05:41 AM
robomatic 25 Feb 22 - 02:09 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Feb 22 - 02:48 PM
Stilly River Sage 25 Feb 22 - 02:55 PM
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Jeri 26 Feb 22 - 09:09 AM
robomatic 26 Feb 22 - 05:15 PM
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Bonzo3legs 27 Feb 22 - 06:43 AM
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McGrath of Harlow 27 Feb 22 - 11:01 AM
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The Sandman 28 Feb 22 - 02:59 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Feb 22 - 04:29 AM
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Steve Shaw 14 Mar 22 - 07:00 AM
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Dave the Gnome 14 Mar 22 - 08:54 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Mar 22 - 10:47 AM
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Senoufou 15 Mar 22 - 07:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Mar 22 - 08:09 AM
peteglasgow 15 Mar 22 - 11:51 AM
robomatic 16 Mar 22 - 06:51 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Apr 22 - 12:41 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Apr 22 - 06:17 PM
Donuel 14 Apr 22 - 09:19 AM
gillymor 14 Apr 22 - 09:53 AM
robomatic 14 Apr 22 - 02:49 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Apr 22 - 09:36 PM
Donuel 15 Apr 22 - 01:10 PM
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Stilly River Sage 17 Apr 22 - 02:45 PM
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Stilly River Sage 19 Apr 22 - 12:46 PM
The Sandman 19 Apr 22 - 05:01 PM
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The Sandman 20 Apr 22 - 01:50 AM
Rain Dog 20 Apr 22 - 02:00 AM
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Steve Shaw 20 Apr 22 - 04:20 AM
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Stilly River Sage 20 Apr 22 - 10:09 AM
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The Sandman 21 Apr 22 - 04:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 22 - 07:48 AM
Donuel 21 Apr 22 - 08:32 AM
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The Sandman 22 Apr 22 - 02:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Apr 22 - 03:33 AM
Stilly River Sage 22 Apr 22 - 11:02 AM
Bonzo3legs 23 Apr 22 - 11:32 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Apr 22 - 11:51 AM
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Steve Shaw 23 Apr 22 - 07:49 PM
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Bonzo3legs 24 Apr 22 - 05:30 AM
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Backwoodsman 24 Apr 22 - 06:11 AM
robomatic 24 Apr 22 - 03:05 PM
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Subject: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 02:58 AM

Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Putin, long serving president of Russia, does not want Ukraine to EVER be a member of NATO. This may be related to the fact that he seized Crimea from Ukraine in 2014 after Ukraine voted for their own president who favored a closer connection with western Europe.

Now, Ukrainians and Russians are two separate peoples with two separate languages and a host of religious distinctions. It is like but distinct from the relationship between Ireland and England. There is a lot of cultural crossover and cultural 'take'over along with a lot of love and hate, including a shared history with a lot of bitterness and yet a lot of intermarriage.

But the distinctions remain. In the 80s I was at an aircraft convention visited by one of the second-largest cargo planes in the world, the Antonov 124. I tried to speak to the crew in Russian only to be told with a smile but firmly "we are all Ukrainians!".
There are many places in the U.S. and Canada with large Slavic populations, and while they will organize that way the cultural distinctions are never forgot.

There has been a low level war being waged by Russian imported militiamen that have kept the Ukrainians on a slow bleed. It seems to me along the lines of a fat playground bully grabbing a small child and telling him to "stop hitting yourself!"

Ukraine has its own problems but has been struggling with some success on getting itself out of the morass of political corruption that has embedded its much larger neighbor. But its paying the price in blood and land.

So Ukraine is on my mind tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 05:12 AM

I might find myself in a horrid, disparaged minority here, but my first reaction to this is to avoid a military fightback at all costs, both from Ukraine and most definitely from the west. I think that, for Ukraine, that would be a bloody and hopeless cause. Over the coming days and weeks we can talk about ramping up sanctions and sending Russia to Coventry. We are dealing with an unstable maniac with a nuclear trigger at his disposal, and nobody but nobody can ever tell him what he can and can't do. That should inform our response, which should be measured and without kneejerk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 05:25 AM

I suppose that the downside of what I've just said is that such an approach might embolden him. But the next step in his mission to reinstate the USSR (there's little doubt that that's what he's up to) would be to invade a NATO country, and that would mean a world war...

With the toughest sanctions in place, including lots of steps that would hurt us as well as him, and a massive commitment needed from him to ramping up his military, he will eventually impoverish his own country to the point of starvation. In the long run, the ordinary Russian people could be our best friends...

Something inside me tells me that the very last thing we want to see right now is bloodshed in every news bulletin for weeks or months...


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 06:00 AM

I don't think he wants to reinstate the USSR but rather the Russian Empire with him as Tzar. His biggest fear is that the Russian people will revolt again so, yes, they are definitely our best hope at the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 06:19 AM

Don't underestimate his ambition. When the Wall came down he was one of the most bitter men in Russia and his bitterness at the loss of the USSR has not diminished.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 07:07 AM

Trump gave Putin ideas, I am sure. Since Trump didn't just hand over Ukraine by completely shutting down NATO (he did gut it), Putin's acting now before NATO gains its full strength. This isn't difficult to read.

Not fight? Just roll over? I think not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 07:13 AM

I didn't say roll over. I said avoid bloodshed and hit Russia as hard as is humanly possible with sanctions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 07:40 AM

I might be crediting the allies a bit much, here, but I think the heavy use of media to throw light on Russia acting out "false flag" operations and keeping up the hue and cry is a tactic to avoid military confrontation. Sending Americans to the local NATO member states shows we're serious without the kind of bluster the Russians and FOX are employing.

I suspect that Putin is not as sane as he appears, although I think he is trying to capture a land bridge to Crimea, which might seem to be a practical goal in a context more suitable to Germany and the Sudetenland in 1938.

Our local NPR plays BBC World Service through the night. Right now "Hard Talk" is on with a Russian MP Vitaly Millonov spouting utter rubbish. I might have to turn this off for sleep and sanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 08:09 AM

Very worrying to hear Putin making thinly disguised threats of the use of nuclear weapons against any country who attempts ‘interference’ with his invasion of the Ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 09:11 AM

From from British Pathe, The Atlantic Pact 1949. NATO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 10:57 AM

I shared this in a new thread above. Suffering, a Ukrainian song performed by the late (and very great!) Ukrainian-American Peter Ostroushko in 2014 at The Concert for Ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: meself
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 11:05 AM

I think it was a mistake for Biden to be so forthright about not sending American troops into Ukraine; he could have kept Putin - and his cronies - wondering.

Interesting that Putin made such a show of humiliating that govt minister in his televised cabinet meeting - he seemed to feel the need to make it clear that he's the boss. Almost as if not everybody's heart is really in this adventure ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 12:20 PM

I would recommend the book A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian for anyone who wants a view of the Ukraines relationship with the USSR. It's very funny and well written too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 12:43 PM

Fiona Hill was the State Department Russia expert who testified during the first Trump impeachment (and why the hell those didn't stick and solve some of this problem . . . )

Fiona Hill says that Trump emboldened Putin to invade Ukraine by treating the country like a 'playground'
Fiona Hill criticized Donald Trump's approach to foreign policy, especially regarding Russia.
In an interview with CNN, Hill, an expert on Russia who advised Trump, addressed the contrasts between Trump's approach to foreign policy and President Joe Biden's.

She said Trump's foreign policy had not been driven by concern about the US national interest, but by personal interests and impulses.

"There's no Team America for Trump," Hill said. "Not once did I see him do anything to put America first. Not once. Not for a single second."

Hill recalled Trump's praise for Russia's authoritarian leader, Vladimir Putin, as well as his disdain for NATO. She also mentioned his campaign to pressure Ukraine for manufactured dirt about Biden in the run-up to the 2020 election. The Ukraine pressure campaign saw Trump threaten to withhold military aid from the nation, which led to his first impeachment.

"All this did was say to Russia that Ukraine was a playground," Hill said, drawing a direct line to events today, as Russia has amassed a huge military force around Ukraine, prompting fears in the US and European countries that a military strike is imminent.

Hill shot to prominence when she testified during Trump's 2019 impeachment hearings, rebutting conspiracy theories promoted by Trump allies that sought to excuse Russia of blame for interfering in the 2016 election, and explaining how Russia was seeking to sow domestic discord in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 12:45 PM

It's pretty clear from the justifications he offers and his rambling speeches that Putin caught whatever Trump has. Or vice-versa. It's personal, this assault on Ukraine.

And while I'm at posting articles, here's another one. Defend Chernobyl During an Invasion? Why Bother, Some Ukrainians Ask. Ukraine has initiated a defensive strategy for the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, one of the most radioactive places on Earth, which lies on the shortest path between Russia and Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv.
CHERNOBYL, Ukraine — Ukrainian soldiers, Kalashnikov rifles slung over their shoulders, patrolled through a silent, snowy forest, passing homes so long abandoned that vines twirl through the broken windows.

The fields are fallow, the cities deserted and the entire Chernobyl zone in northern Ukraine is still so radioactive it would seem the last place on Earth anybody would want to conquer.

But while most of the attention around a potential invasion by Russia is focused on troop buildups and daily hostilities in the east, the shortest route from Russia to Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv, is from the north. And it passes through the isolated zone around the Chernobyl power plant, where the meltdown of a reactor in 1986 caused the worst nuclear disaster in history.

In one of the incongruities of war, that makes Chernobyl an area that Ukraine thinks it needs to defend, forcing its military to deploy security forces into the eerie and still radioactive forest, where they carry both weapons and equipment to detect radiation exposure. . . .Two months ago, the government deployed additional forces into the area, because of increased tensions with Russia and Belarus, a Kremlin ally whose border is five miles from the stricken reactor and where Russia has recently moved troops.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 01:07 PM

whitehouse.gov says Biden will address the nation 1:30 PM Eastern Time.

Great links being added to the thread!


Differences between Russian and Ukrainian languages


There is a haunting Ukrainian song that was being aired about eight years ago. It was a song from a dying soldier to his mother and her answer back but I haven't found it on the internet yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 01:09 PM

”I would recommend the book A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian for anyone who wants a view of the Ukraines relationship with the USSR. It's very funny and well written too.

Written by Marina Lewycka, who was a class-mate of mine through school. A very nice, well-spoken girl with a lovely Ukrainian accent! My dad worked with her dad for a short time - the stories he told about the Russians, and how he was treated by them during WW2, were toe-curling.

‘Tractors’ is an excellent read - thoroughly recommended!


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 01:23 PM

There is an organization around Russian and Ukrainian music that is primarily east coast. The BDAA (Balalaika and Domra Association of America). Over 20 years ago I joined them for a dance class in Philadelphia. It was a wonderful and exhausting experience. Many Ukrainian Canadians showed up. It was a powerful example of people celebrating their related but distinctive cultures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 01:38 PM

"Plyve Kacha"

You can search for it under:

Pikkardiyska Tertsiya / ????????????? ?????? - Plyve kacha / ????? ????


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 01:40 PM

Sorry, those question marks came through instead of the cyrillic fonts. The song was aired a lot during the Ukrainian 'revolt' at the Maidan circa 2013-2014.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 04:22 PM

Usually we delete posts with those question marks - good thing we know who you are! I think if you go into an html directory you could find the code so those would display.

I started a thread for Ukrainian music so please also post your links to songs up there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Monique
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 06:04 PM

Піккардійська терція / Плине кача = Pikkardiyska Tertsiya /Plyve kacha


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 08:57 PM

It's been a long day, and I haven't changed my mind much since this morning, except that I think I've underestimated the sentiment of the brave Ukrainians to fight back, which I respect greatly. We've had the telly on all day today, following all this, and rolling news isn't always as informative as you'd like it to be. But the brave BBC Moscow correspondent (Steve Rosenberg) has spoken to a lot of ordinary Russians and has tried to get the feel of their sentiment, and has come to the view that the majority of Russians are bitterly opposed to what Putin is doing. Putin is not Russia, and Russia does not want to be hated by the world. You can't protest openly in Russia without the risk of police thuggery, arrest then God knows what, but I still think that, in the end, the ordinary Russian people will win this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 09:52 PM

Yes, I was seeing news feeds this evening showing a lot of Russians, all over the country, protesting this war, many arrested in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 09:53 PM

Putin has autocratic powers which too much of the world admires these days. It is a powerful caution that this still exists and in fact is making gains against democratic powers and philosophy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 10:11 PM

The reason I'm watching this with dread, is that it just happens that
I have been reading, lately, about
the Armistice, the Paris Peace Conference, the Treaty of Versailles, and the League of Nations,
that followed upon the Great War.

Just such a sense of foreshadowing.
It was 1919, over a hundred years ago.
And yet such deep roots for the conflict and intolerance
that are still tearing the world apart today.

Woodrow Wilson, somewhere across the threshold,
must be shaking his head . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 11:55 PM

I wonder if Russia has another motivation to seize Chernobyl first, other than being a short cut to Kiev.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 02:20 AM

And what is biden doing - scratching his arse?????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 02:34 AM

Oh, so you fancy the idea of this whole business escalating into a nuclear conflict, eh Bonzo? President Biden is doing exactly what Johnson and other Western leaders are doing - taking part in a concerted, non-military excercise to put economic pressure on Putin in order to make him realise that invasion of a peaceful neighbouring country is not in his best interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 04:54 AM

Is there a balance of power in Europe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 05:26 AM

“No war has the honesty to confess: I kill to steal.”

Wars always invoke noble motives, kill in the name of peace, in the name of god, in the name if civilization, in the name Of progress, in the name OF democracy and if by doubts, if so much lie did not reach, there are the big media willing to invent communication imaginary enemies to justify the conversion of the world into a big madhouse and an immense slaughterhouse.

In Rey Lear, Shakespeare had written that in this world the mad lead the blind and four centuries later, the masters of the world are mad in love with death that have made the world a place where every minute they starve or enf healing 10 children and every minute $3 million, three million dollars per minute are spent on the military industry which is a death factory.

Guns require wars and wars require weapons and the five countries that run the United Nations, which have veto rights at the United Nations, also happen to be the top five gun producers.

One wonders How long ? Until when will world peace be in the hands of those who do the business of war?

Until when will we continue to believe that we are born for mutual extermination and that mutual extermination is our destiny?

Until when? "

#EduardoGaleano #paz #Ucrania
March for Peace and Non-Violence - October 2009


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 05:28 AM

Putin has calculated that he can ride out whatever sanctions the west can throw at him. There are already splits: we can't agree that we should exclude Russia from the SWIFT international banking system (used to pay him for Russian oil and gas, for example). A couple of weeks ago he was cosying up to the equally nasty charlatan President Xi. You can bet your life that there will be plenty of sanctions mitigations coming from that quarter, and Xi will be watching with interest to see if there's a template here for taking Taiwan. This next bit might seem trivial, but Russia is a football-mad country which has now had the prestigious Champions League (aka European Cup, as was) final taken away. Russia still has teams in European competitions as well as an interest in the forthcoming World Cup. Take all that away (which I think should be done), and there are going to be tens of millions of very angry Russians, and it won't be us who they blame. I think that Russian public opinion turning against Putin is almost the only hope of drawing his sting. He's a nasty piece of work and will use brutal methods to suppress dissent, but, unlike in the bad old Cold War days, he won't be able to hide what he does from the world behind a wall of secrecy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 05:41 AM

I would imagine the Russian people are cringing with fear at the more-than-likely reprisals that will follow from other nations. If this escalates into a war, they will suffer too. If it goes nuclear (God save us!) they will not want that, surely?


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 02:09 PM

This is a link to an NPR interview with author Masha Gessen in 2014. It reads as if from the present but there are a few changes worth noting.

I first became aware of Masha Gessen when she was interviewed over the Ukrainian turn toward Europe and rejection of a path toward Moscow. She predicted that Putin would respond with "some form of rape" and within weeks the invasion and seizure of Crimea occurred.

I haven't found any recent interviews or comments from her but I'm still looking. She may be one of those rare commentators who refrains from saying anything when there is nothing new to say. But I'm still looking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 02:48 PM

Putin seems to crazed to worry about going nuclear, and if Putin did make a first strike, would their be any point in obliterating the rest of the world in retaliation and escalation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 02:55 PM

I was frankly astonished at a few of the high caliber people who served in the Trump State Department as his advisors on Russia and Ukraine - it's pretty clear Trump's team didn't consider it important and didn't bother to notice that Hill and Vindman were really smart people and might be a hazard to Trump in the long run. (The only pushback I heard about was when Hill suddenly found herself having to attend a meeting in the White House when she wasn't dressed for it - she had on sneakers, not pumps, and Ivanka who was also there made a big point of noticing it.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 03:09 PM

One huge collaborative effort that suddenly is endangered - the joint NASA and Russian space program.

What does the Ukraine invasion mean for US-Russian partnership in space?
Could Russia's military and political actions in Ukraine upend science and exploration in outer space?

International political tensions are high after Russia invaded Ukraine this week, with attacks beginning near the capital Kyiv as well as in Kharkiv near the Russian border. The world hasn't witnessed a "move like this, nation state-to-nation state, since World War II ... certainly nothing on this size and scope and scale," a senior U.S. defense official told reporters today (Feb. 24), CNN reported.

Russian President Vladimir Putin "has put himself on the wrong side of history," leaders of a G7 meeting said in a joint statement today, according to CNN. The meeting included U.S. President Joe Biden, who has previously voiced support for Ukraine in this conflict, among other world leaders.

The U.S. and Russia have collaborated in space for decades, but this recent action by Russia raises questions about its potential effects in space. . . .

While this mission saw the two nations briefly coming together, what came later saw the U.S. and Russia collaborate on a much larger scale, specifically in regard to the International Space Station (ISS) program as well as sharing rides to the station aboard Russian Soyuz spacecraft.

"I think part of the intent of the ISS program was to ... have a program where the U.S. and Russian space sectors were so closely tied together that it became sort of unthinkable to have conflict," David Burbach, a professor of national security affairs at the U.S. Naval War College in Rhode Island, told Space.com. (Burbach's statements are personal and do not reflect the opinion of the U.S. Navy.)

This is the stuff of science fiction stories, possibly come to life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 06:23 PM

Well there's going to be a lot of collateral damage. My personal focus is on the terrible situation in which the people of Ukraine find themselves.

I want to grasp at straws here and, whilst I don't want to sound emptily optimistic, a couple of things I'm hearing, or not hearing, today made me perk up a bit. First, I'm not sure that things have entirely gone Putin's way today. Nothing swift and clean seems to have happened, and Russia is already getting hundreds of its young men back home in body bags. It's clear that there is a big groundswell of opposition in Russia to what's going on (it's being suppressed, obviously). Thousands of Ukraine citizens have been issued with machine guns, and I'm thinking that young Russian conscripts would be reluctant to get shot at from around every corner. In many regards, Russians and Ukrainians are brothers and sisters, not mutual aliens.

Another point well made this evening by BBC correspondents and interviewees is that Ukraine is a country as big as France with a population as big as Spain's, and, while Russian military might could easily overcome the Ukrainian military, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than 150,000 troops to occupy a non-compliant country for any length of time. It seems doubtful that Putin could increase his resources sufficient to achieve that unless he seriously impoverishes his own country.

As I've said before, it could be that the ordinary Russian people may turn out to be the world's best friends...


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 09:58 PM

The weapons being issued to citizens allow for a guerilla force and the US is upping the amount of weapons being sent there. Biden said that in his last press conference regarding Ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Feb 22 - 09:09 AM

The short term: Putin can take Ukraine.
The long term: I don't that he can hold it, after it was a democracy for so long, and THAT feeling will spread. Also, I think, judging from what I'm seeing on the news, he has finally pushed his people too far, and begun the end to his rule. Kill the USSR twice.

I also hope Zalensky can get to safety, although his fate may be part of the story, too.

One thing this does show, and I've heard it said about the USA enough: the people are great, but the governments suck. (Disclaimer: some of our people suck, too.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 22 - 05:15 PM

Germany's PM announced that they would provide defensive arms to Ukraine. Interesting if he is certain he can still get them delivered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 22 - 06:08 PM

The more I think of it the more I think it is a serious blunder on the part of Putin. I wonder if the armed forces of Russia are prepared to shed much neighbor's blood.

Russians are legendary in repelling invaders. This is not that.

Instead they are fostering unity in Ukraine, increased admiration for their unlikely president, and justification and unity to NATO's many new members.

And I think it is going to work against Trmp and his amen corner in FOX news. (Maybe Chris Wallace timed his exit very well).

It reminds me of 1990 when Saddam Hussein massed troops on the border of Kuwait. He scared a lot of folk, and the price of oil headed for the sky. At that point he was in a bargaining position.

Then he blew it with actual military invasion. Putin may have painted himself into his own corner. Couldn't happen to a nicer son of a bitch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 04:14 AM

I agree with robo here (I don't always, but hey). I'm clinging to hope a bit too much. But this is going to go on for a good while yet. I admit that I was wrong about the need for Ukraine to not fight back. I didn't expect the response to be as brave and feisty as it's been so far. In consequence, this isn't going as well as Putin thought it would. Unfortunately, the realisation of that could make him even nastier. What we're seeing on the telly apropos of families having to leave their homes and, in many cases, their husbands, is almost too much to watch. All because a despot wants to reclaim a corrupt kingdom. I don't think we are heading for WW3 but we are certainly heading for mass cruelty visited on millions of people who just want to get on with their lives.

As for weaponry, I think we should applaud Germany for promising to provide anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry, and, up to today, at potentially at great cost to their economy, they have cancelled the new gas pipeline to Russia and agreed to suspend the SWIFT international bank transfer agreement. The US is the most powerful western military force. Ukraine is an awful long way from Washington. We have yet to see an adequate response to this dreadful attack on democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 05:44 AM

We were reminded this morning on Broadcasting House (BBC Radio 4) of a Prom concert at the Albert Hall on 21 August 1968. The Russian cellist Mstislav Rostropovich and the USSR State Symphony Orchestra under the Russian conductor Svetlanov played the Czech composer Dvorák's Cello Concerto, amid protests and calls for the concert to be cancelled. On that day and the day before, Russian tanks had rolled into Czechoslovakia. That was some coincidence and it made musical history. A tearful Slava played the concerto with passion and anger, making it "completely clear whose side he was on."

Slava promised that he would play in Prague when the last Russian boots had gone from Czech soil. He kept his word, but he had to wait for more than 20 years...

There were no protests during the actual performance. It was released on CD eventually. It is far from the tidiest version ever of Dvorák's concerto but it's an amazing and emotional listen when you recall that context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 06:43 AM

I'm hearing Vladimir Putin is now in danger of being assassinated by Russian sources close to him because they believe he's gone too far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 09:46 AM

What's your source, Bonzo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 11:01 AM

Any dictator is always in danger of being assassinated. Goes with the job. But it doesn't happen too frequently.

More significant maybe are reports of cases where movements of Russian vehicles being halted by people coming out and standing in the way. That suggests that there are Russian troops who are not too happy with this invasion. As would be expected.

This is not a repeat of Crimea where it was genuine support for the takeover - Crimea had been part of Russia, rather than Ukraine from 1754 until 1954: when Kruschev, himself a Ukrainian, transferred it formally to Ukraine, and it's clear that most people living there felt themselves to be Russian. Nor is it like Hungary in 1956, which had been allied with Germany in the in the war.

The BBC referred to polls indicate 60% Russian opposition to the wider war on Ukraine, including people who quite approved of the move to recognise the breakaway republics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 04:16 PM

This is not meant to demean the human cost in life going on as I write this, but in the OP I mentioned being at an airshow talking to the Ukrainian crew of an Antonov 124.

There was a big brother of the 124, the ANT 225, originally built to carry the Russian version of the shuttle. It is one of a kind and looks like one of a kind. It has flown constantly as a private contractor for getting incredible loads of great shape or bulk from point A to point B. To look at it you could imagine it as the perfect musclebound monster to fly anything produced by Jurassic Park! That also goes for the smaller 124, which has been the second largest plane on the planet - so far (I'm ignoring the Californian new experimental Stratolaunch for now).

There is an article from CNN with the unconfirmed report that the 225 has been destroyed.

It is definitely symbolic in this bullying war between two neighbors with such interlocking history and culture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Neil D
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 11:20 PM

Jeri said "I also hope Zalensky can get to safety, although his fate may be part of the story, too." President Zelensky does not appear to be interested in getting to safety. The U.S. government offered to evacuate the president and he said "I don't need a ride, I need ammunition." He is still hunkered down in Kyiv. I fear for this brave and noble leader, my newest hero.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 02:59 AM

Bonzo, source?
Jeri reminds me of the 2000 collapse predictions, pure bollocks


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 04:29 AM

looks like the History channel has got some new material to work on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 07:03 AM

Bonzo, a palace coup, putsch or assasination would be hampered by covid testing and 2 weeks quarantine to get close to Putin. :^/
The truth is Putin is as isolated as a former Trump with very few old crazy KGB yes man pals around him. If Putin wants to hear what advisors have to say, he tells them what to say.

Switzerland banks are warning Russain Oligarchs that their accounts may be frozen. A word to the wise Russains will give most of them a chance to move and hide fortunes. The loyalty of these oligarchs to Putin is problomatic. London banks, similar to Switzerland, are wimping out for now.
Sweden and Germany will give weapons directly to Ukraine. The ruble dropped 30%. 110 rubles now buys a dollar.

Putin has thrown 'all in' with a go big or go home strategy.
A Russain occupying army will face hardships as time goes by as in any occupying army after street by street battles. History shows Ukraine has thrown out Russain occupying police before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 08:32 AM

My Grandad was from Kropotkin on the Kuban river and my Dad was always proud of being a Kuban Cossack. Cossack lineage flows down the male side so I guess I am one too! One of the things my Dad always said was "Don't trust the Russians!" It confused me for years but, after my Grandad died and my Grandma remarried another Cossack I found at their wedding feast, held at the Ukrainian club in Manchester, 1972, the anti-Russian feeling against Russia by Cossacks was palpable.

The Russian state has used Cossacks in their wars for centuries. There are verified instances of mounted Cossacks attacking German tanks in WW2. Their courage and fierceness is legendary. As Ukraine is the focal point for Don, Kuban and Zaporozhian Cossacks, it makes me wonder why the current regime is foolish enough to take them on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - From 2022-2023
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 12:11 PM

About the only (sensible thing?) about this war is that it is not over whose God is the right God. It is about what man is mentally ill.
BUT religions are jealous. If you google Ukraine invasion and religion there are plenty of sites that claim the reason is really about trying to destroy Christianity but it is top secret. shh

Q Anon is of course all Pro Putin and despise Ukraine as a fake country. Q Anon has gone international and is now banned in Ukraine. Hmmm.
Muslim countries are split depending on who wants Russain support and the Hindu and Buddists are silent in their despair. What about Jews you ask? Russia has not been a friend to Jews for a very long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 01:52 PM

Sadly, Donuel, Ukraine is the spiritual home of the Cossacks and Jews have no reason to love them either. It does seem though that by electing a Jewish president Ukrainians have moved out of the dark ages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 06:04 PM

The fierceness of Cossacks have even reached my poor ears.
I think the President was a comedian first and Jews make good comedy.
My making light of The Ukraine war is like making terrorist jokes on 9-12.
The tradgedies and atrocities are mounting up already


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Mar 22 - 08:20 PM

"and Jews make good comedy."

Not ideal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 12:05 AM

Sez you. In America it is commonly known that many of the most successful and nuanced comedians are Jewish. I really wish you would stop saying "no" any time Donuel says "yes." We're all tired of it. Try to do the adult thing and ignore him if you're unhappy with what he posts. We'd all be the richer for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 07:44 AM

I think Putin's plans were predicated on Trump dismantling NATO by now.
That it did not happen once Biden was elected, we Americans who were against Trumpism all along have done our part to also protect European independance. Perhaps its a small part but its a democratic lynch pin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 07:57 AM

Maybe Donuel but when Trump did not follow Putin's orders, why did Putin go ahead anyway? I think this has been in the making a long time prior to Trump even dreaming about being president.

There is one Russian demand that I could be convinced would be beneficial to all concerns. Remove American nuclear weapons from the whole of Europe. If anything good can come of this, maybe that will be it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 09:07 AM

The map of Europe which has Nato coloured in is very different to the one from a few decades ago. It appears to show a relentless Nato advance, right up to the Russian border. That shouldn't be a problem, as Nato is ostensibly a defensive bloc, though he sees that "advance" as a provocation and as a broken promise (he'll see what he wants to see and he hasn't got people around him to tell him otherwise). A wise agreement between Nato and Putin would involve keeping each other's weaponry well away from their borders. And not pointing missiles at each other. And somebody needs to tell him that Ukraine will not be joining Nato either in his or in Biden's lifetime. We're dealing with a bloke who doesn't need much of a pretext and who has an evangelical desire to restore the Russian empire. We've made the big mistake of failing to sufficiently recognise that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 09:29 AM

Removing nukes is a great idea but symbolic. I think Putin's plans go back to the fall of the Berlin Wall and Glasnost which was against his idea of empire and colonialism.

An aside to Stilly:
Steve and I regretably have conditioned responses. His expertise lies with the past and mine are with the future. Never the twain shall meet except in the fleeting now. In truth we agree on more than we disagree.

The past can be corrupted or improved upon and future speculation can be wrong or changed. Its crazier than fluid dynamics and quantum mechanics. All in all things go better than expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 11:26 AM

Even if Putin released tactical nukes the damage would be less than the inexorable scourge of global warming.
The UN released its research showing that all the previously unknown factors are accumulating to inflate the rapidity of a runaway warming event. Billions of people will be effected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Mar 22 - 12:20 PM

"Remove American nuclear weapons from the whole of Europe. If anything good can come of this, maybe that will be it."

Absolutely. Way back in the early 80s I was delivering firewood (and, one one occasion, Mrs Steve) to the brave women of Greenham, marching with the missus and kids round US air bases (dressed up on one occasion as moles*), all to persuade the bloody yanks to get their baleful weaponry and their sweet arses out of our country. The last thing any country needs is to be made more vulnerable by dint of a bunch of armed foreigners squatting in their country who have wildly different interests to their own.

*Our little lad, four years old at the time, managed to separate himself from us momentarily on one of the demos. We found him a couple of minutes later marching in step, right at the front of the marchers, with the Labour MP Ann Clwyd. He looked very solemn as he trotted along with her and she seemed very happy to have such hallowed company. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 06:09 AM

The news gets worse every day. I can't help thinking that Putin is trying to provoke war with the west. It's hard to know what we can do as individuals. I hate giving to charities because I know that much of what I might give is sucked up by "administrative costs," but I don't know what else to do apart from sticking a Ukraine flag car sticker on my bumper. I know there are collection points round here for blankets, clothing, that sort of thing. Our DEC (Disasters Emergency Committee) is an amalgam of fifteen charities which currently has an appeal directed at giving aid to Ukrainian people. That'll have to do for me. The government is going to match the first £20 million raised pound for pound, and you can gift aid your donation. For example, £100 turns into £125.

Annoyingly, paying online has been made as bureaucratic as possible. Name, address, full card details, declarations, etc, all have to be filled in. Generally, before making online payments for anything I look for the good ol' PayPal button. Not this time. I suppose there are alternative ways of giving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 06:25 AM

New laws in Russia can sentence a person to 15 years in prison for calling the mission in Ukraine as an invasion.
MSNBC source.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 06:34 AM

Disinformation about nuclear and cyber attacks are designed to keep the west off balance as the Russain invasion stumbles forwrd.
Putin wants to win the war of fear among other wars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 08:18 AM

Here's to the Ukrainian farmers pinching abandoned russian military vehicles and joyriding!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 08:28 AM

Ha ha. I guess the farmers know how to repair vehicles better than Russain troops.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 08:39 AM

I can't think that there's much joy around in Ukraine at the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 08:53 AM

The end game is supposed be a Stalingrad like siege of Kyiv to kill Ukrainians by starvation and thirst. Depending on logistics and old trucks, Russain troops may go hungry too.

What if the Vatican supplied food by air drop like America did in the Soviet blockade of Berlin. The vatican is not NATO.

The hacker group Annonymous has declared cyber war on Russian business, infrastructure and government. They used to attack the US but now they attack Russia???


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 07:07 PM

Our local branch of Morrisons is appealing for donations of all sorts of stuff that we can make in store, and Morrisons has promised to donate £250,000. That's the spirit. We'll be there first thing (ish)...

We don't seem to have a local collection point for blankets, nappies and clothes at the moment but we're working on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 08:04 PM

From the Guardian:

As the war in Ukraine intensifies, some US lawmakers are urging President Joe Biden to take a tougher stance against Russia, such as by suspending imports of its oil.

The White House has ruled this out so far, fearing it might cause rising oil prices to go up even more and hurt US consumers stung by record inflation.


Why, you poor dears. Or, should I say, you bastards. Sod the starving, the dying, the refugees, the homeless, the terrified. What's more bloody important than your oil prices (remind me: what do you pay for your petrol?) or your "record inflation"? You didn't start this war but, begod, you are in Russia's face in Europe with your military bases and your aggressive weaponry close to the border with Russia. You are in this mess with us, or, at least, you should be if your conscience allows. You need to stop relying on the fact that Ukraine is a long, long way from you. Time to step up, Yanks. Show, for once, that you care about the world beyond your borders. Or are you merely adhering to Trump's "America first...?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 08:29 PM

I know many dislike the US but an opinion piece in the Guardian is not the final word during these fluid times.

Meanwhile in Russia you can't use an ATM or credit cards.
The Ukraine invasion is not the doing of the US or a lax response.
The US is not respondsible for attacking the largest nuke plant in Europe which is located in Ukraine.

If one stated 'fake' news about the Ukraine invasion inside Russia they face a 15 year prison sentence. I tend to think the party line is the fake news.
In the US there is a bipartisan push for banning Russia oil and gas!
I daresay that is more than parts of Europe's response.

Sometimes being angry for anger's sake is unhelpful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 08:51 PM

That was a report from a journalist, not an "opinion piece." Falling back on "everyone hates the yanks" is just tired and lazy. There is a big issue here, and it's that people like you and me (and it wouldn't matter even if it wasn't people like you and me....) are being slaughtered, driven from their homes and families, losing everything they have and spending their lives in fear and terror. Your bloody oil prices and inflation hardly count for anything in that scheme of things. To say the least, the piece I read about US self-interest trumping everything else made me want to throw up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 09:15 PM

Please don't toss your crumpets. Since I am somehow respondsible for bloody oil prices and inflation that hardly counts for anything, lets just agree its Putin's War.
However, I will not take any respondsibility for Putin's war.

Perhaps you want me to enforce a no fly zone over Ukraine and shoot down Russain planes. We narrowly avoided a nuclear meltdown 10 times bigger than Chernobyl last night. Perhaps Putin wants to go nuclear but the US is determined to minimize that from happening. Total prevention is not possible without the US going toe to toe in nuclear poker of bluffing or going all in.
Lets keep losses less than the dead from pandemic and be rational.

Rationaly speaking I can not do a damn thing except protest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 09:32 PM

So do you think that ranting at people in the US who individually can't do anything about Russia invading Ukraine is helpful, Steve? Did you hear any one of us complain that we should keep getting Russian oil to be able to fill our tanks cheaply? No. Russia is responsible for this mess and short of starting WWIII many measures have been taken and sanctions put in place to force Putin to back down. I'm hearing of a few who are saying we should "give him an out, a way to save face." Nope. There should be no face-saving for Vladimir Putin, and if I have to help by donating to a fund so low-income drivers in my town can get help with gas, I will.

I don't know what's going on with you but your posts are very unpleasant to read and are needlessly targeting particular members and moderation. And when that happens, they are deleted, even if part of the post had something to do with the topic. We don't operate by Steve's Rules here and your nagging just takes us away from the subject. Consider stepping back for a few days. Don't watch much news, go play a musical instrument, work in the garden, take a walk. Cook something. Do some kind of mental reset.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 09:48 PM

I suspect he's mostly talking to Don. They sort of have a thing.

I'm retired and not wealthy, there's no public transportation here, I'm two miles away from a grocery store and ten miles away from my preferred one, and clothes and other things are 20 or more miles away, but I don't have to drive to work, and I wouldn't mind paying more for gas if we can stick it to Putin. I'm eventually going to have to pay more, anyway.

Lindsey Graham, who I don't like at all, is in deep doo-doo for suggesting someone over there assassinate Putin. I don't think it's a bad idea, but it's not political to actually say it out loud.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Mar 22 - 10:09 PM

Exactly. What you think and what comes out of your mouth are two different things entirely if you're a public figure. Facebook blocked a remark I put on one of your posts - community standards don't allow for the random observation "he should be shot." I didn't consider that the same as instructions to his cohorts to assassinate him, but I suppose the AI algorithms read it as that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 22 - 09:48 PM

They're hanging on, but what a struggle. Russian missiles strike Ukrainian military range near Poland, killing dozens. Moscow promises further attacks.

Putin is out of his effing mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 22 - 09:54 PM

Well, ten days later (who knows what might come back...), suggesting that he should be assassinated drags us right down to his level. We need to see him in court, then in jail. Whatever else, what we don't need is to see him come out of this still in power. That doesn't mean that that has to be the sine qua non before we end this war, as the key issue is to stop the slaughter. But afterwards, we have to get him, and sharpish. And I think we will. In the meantime, we must enforce a no-fly zone, and we must let him know in no uncertain terms that one boot on the ground, or one missile attack, in a NATO country means the end of him and the breakup of his state. That much do we owe to the brave people of Ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 22 - 10:08 PM

Incidentally, Putin is most decidedly not out of his effing mind. That assumption is incredibly dangerous. He knows exactly what he's doing. The same has been said about Trump. But Trump, equally, is also not out of his mind. There's a very game chance that he will win the next election, and there's a very game chance that Putin will survive this horror and continue in power. The assumption that either of these men will not survive a setback is so incredibly complacent. The world is simply not spinning that way any more. In just over two years' time we could well have Trump in the White House and Putin in the Kremlin. Be very afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 22 - 11:20 PM

They are both sociopaths and are out of their minds as far as normal people operate. YMMV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 04:12 AM

There is a move afoot here in UK to encourage people with a spare room etc. to offer six months' shelter to refugees from Ukraine. There is a (small) sum given to cover any food/expenses etc.
I'm somewhat tempted. (Since my husband left, there is quite a bit of space in my bungalow, and I'm rather lonely). However, there is no public transport in our village, and it is a bit remote, so I don't think it would be possible for the refugee/s to access paid work.. There might be language problems too. I speak quite a few languages, but Ukrainian isn't one of them!
However, I did teach my husband to speak English using Phonics and flash cards etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 05:08 AM

Whatever we think of their mental state, the bottom-line issue is that they could both be in power in couple of years' time. And they both know exactly what they're doing. Putin is turning large areas of Ukraine into a wasteland and we rapidly have to decide how long we can allow him to continue to do that. The fact that Ukraine is not in Nato almost feels like a technicality as we watch the slaughter on our tellies. He will target the smaller Nato states on his border next if he thinks he's conquered Ukraine, and at the very least we should be massing overwhelming firepower on those borders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 07:00 AM

The collection point in Bude for clothes, blankets, nappies, that sort of thing, has been overwhelmed by the generosity of local people. On Saturday we had a coffee-and-cake morning that raised £2000 in just over a couple of hours. Collection centres are telling us what items they need most and what isn't quite so useful. One thing I find a bit tacky is the offer of £350 per month to take in refugees. I don't think that most British people need that kind of "bribe." I suppose we could give the money to the victims for them to buy some clothes and toys for their kids. We've just given our Nectar points up!


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 07:10 AM

Steve rolled a cold pickle jar down me back with his WW3 escalation talk.

i'll blame it on frustration and outrage which I've heard elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 07:45 AM

I am airing my opinions. If you have any, please air them. It's much nicer than indulging in not-so-cleverly-hidden ad hominem attacks.

I read this morning that batteries of Patriot (defensive surface-to-air) missiles are lining up along various borders with Russia, coming from a number of European countries, Canada and the US. Putin may want to stop those from arriving (he can't without attacking Nato territory) and to stop the convoys carrying arms reinforcements through Poland into Ukraine, but he can't police the whole long border. Time to show our muscle. The more we do that, the less chance of his attacking a Nato country. One thing's for sure - sanctions won't stop him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 08:54 AM

Having thought long and hard about this, I genuinely believe Putin has dropped the ball. He miscalculated the level of Ukrainian resistance and the reaction of the rest of the world. He needs to be kept wrong footed as the longer he tries and fails to take Ukraine the smaller his support base becomes. If NATO or the western powers begin direct conflict with his forces by, for instance, enforcing a no fly zone, he will start to regain support from both his own people and from countries who are currently wavering.

I cannot see a no fly zone having any great effect on the bombarment of Ukraine civilians as, from what I see and hear, most of it is coming from artillery rather than the skies anyway. The best thing we can do, in my opinion, is to keep supporting Ukraine with both weapons of defence and a safe haven for anyone wishing to leave. It is a tragedy that so many have to die and the courage of Ukrainians fighting the invaders and of Russians standing against their oppresive regime is to be applauded and, wherever possible, assisted.

Just my 2p of couse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 10:47 AM

The military base near the Polish border was hit by air strikes, Dave, killing 35 people, as have several cities in southern Ukraine. A residential building just outside Kiyv was hit by an air strike this morning. The reason that most attacks have so far been from the ground is that it's just the fringes of the country that have borne the brunt as Putin's military convoys have rolled in over the border. Not only that, daytime attacks are hazardous because of Ukraine's anti-aircraft munitions, but the days are getting longer and policing all those extra daylight hours will be a hard task. Putin's attack has stalled badly. He is nowhere near most of the west of the country, and air strikes will be his chosen way of doing damage there. We need a no-fly zone quickly, in m'humble. I'm glad that you and I, at least, can disagree without making stupid comments to each other! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 11:10 AM

Hey, it's only my opinion anyway, Steve. Not worth getting hot under the collar. I am no expert on either diplomacy or warfare but I do know people quite well. There are very few react well to stupid comments or provocation. There are equally few who will have their minds changed by reason, particularly if their arguments are not based on logic anyway. And there are those who are purposely antagonistic that I only respond to with equal abuse or by ignoring them! Glad to say that there are not many of them left :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 12:46 PM

Simon Tisdall in the Guardian thinks the same as me:

"The more Ukraine resists, the greater the danger to Nato. It should act now to stop the slaughter"


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 01:38 PM

My Dad's Dad never really knew if they lived in eastern Poland or western Russia as they put it. Between Hitler and Stalin the family was killed off leaving only 6 who escaped to Boston. At Ellis Island they were asked their name but grand dad responded in a yiddish euphemism which sounded like it ended in ahkem so the clerk wrote down Hackman. We don't know what the actual name was anymore. We do know the euphemism roughly translated was 'stop banging my head like a teapot'. My biodad was Gene Hackman's 1st cousin so we had Hackmans on both sides of the family. So my connection with now Ukraine is as tenuous as my connection with ancient Scotland and England. The English name was Black or Blagg depending on the accent.

Putin will possibly end up with a divided Ukraine that mostly hates Russia and a few who love the Russian 1%.
China will wisely take generations to take Hong Kong and Taiwan but with more harmony over time. Putin wants immediate violent results but he will suffer from his impatience and destruction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 03:02 PM

My Dad was from the same area, Donuel - Bialystok in Poland, close to the border with Belarus. His Dad was from Krupotkin on the Kuban River, in Russia but close to both Ukraine and Georgia. His Mum was born in Bialystok but her Dad was a much decorated Officer of the Russian Tzar's army who met his wife while stationed in Poland! I was born David Polakow but my parents anglicised our surname when I was young. I grew up with true tales of both German Nazi and Russian Communist oppression. Little wonder I despise extremism and get very narked by the right wing factions on here when they accuse me of being a left wing extremist :-(

I experienced a Russian troll on Faceache the other day. Said he was a history professor in Brazil and proceded to explain that because my family fled Soviet oppression in 1945 they must have been Nazis! I blocked him of course but had fun shredding his nonsense first :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 03:04 PM

My Dad's mum was born in Bialystok that is. Not my Grandad'# Mum


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 03:31 PM

That's a myth that names were changed at Ellis Island, and the story tends to be told about the turn of the last century era. By the time of your family's transit here, as you tell it, Ellis wasn't processing immigrants or refugees, that stopped in 1924 when embassies took over that work and all of the documents were letter perfect and the shipping companies kept detailed manifest records. If the name was changed, your ancestors changed it. If people arrived by ship they disembarked with their proper papers, and if they arrived by plane the same at the airports. Only an official at either place to check documents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 06:10 PM

Ukraine reportedly adopts Clearview AI to track Russian invaders
The facial recognition technology has not been made available to Russia.
On March 13, Reuters reported that the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine had adopted the firm's facial recognition engine.

Clearview CEO Hoan Ton-That offered the US company's assistance to Kyiv, and according to the news outlet, the AI tech is being used to "potentially vet people of interest at checkpoints, among other uses," for free.

The startup has not offered the same to Russia, of which President Putin calls the war a "special military operation."

Clearview offers facial recognition technologies to law enforcement for criminal investigations. The US Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) awarded the company a patent in January for using publicly-available data -- including mugshots, social media profiles, and news sites -- to match "similar photos using its proprietary facial recognition algorithm."

See also: Ethics of AI: Benefits and risks of artificial intelligence

Over two billion photos have been grabbed from VKontakte, a Russian social network, but over 10 billion are reportedly available for use.

As well as flagging Russian individuals of interest to authorities, it is possible that the Clearview AI search engine could be used to identify misinformation and propaganda online, to identify refugees and family connections, or potentially as a means to try and identify fatalities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 06:12 PM

And this - they have a point:

Cloudflare and Akamai refuse to pull services out of Russia
Cloudflare claims if it shuts down operations in Russia, it would be a victory for the Russian government.
Cloudflare and Akamai have each confirmed they will continue to operate in Russia, despite being urged to do otherwise.

Both companies have argued that if they were to pull their services, they would be hurting Russian citizens who are trying to access information from outside of the country, but said they condemn Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine.

Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince wrote in a blog post acknowledging that the company has received "several calls to terminate" all of its services inside Russia, including by government.

"Our conclusion … is that Russia needs more internet access, not less," he said.

"As the conflict has continued, we've seen a dramatic increase in requests from Russian networks to worldwide media, reflecting a desire by ordinary Russian citizens to see world news beyond that provided within Russia."

He continued: "Indiscriminately terminating service would do little to harm the Russian government, but would both limit access to information outside the country, and make significantly more vulnerable those who have used us to shield themselves as they have criticized the government".


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 06:57 PM

Without more evidence if my family's name was a myth its one they all agreed upon. I only met all the survivors together just once in Boston and I was young. Although I didn't know why at the time I got the impression that blonde hair and blue eyes was unacceptable. They were not a tall people but skilled. Grandad was babe Ruth's collision mechanic and business was good. (hic) One of the sons born in the US owned the first super glue factory. The tour was smelly and dangerous.

The classical station featured all Ukranian music all day. Cable news is 24/7 Ukraine war. There may come a day that Ukraine joins the long
of countries torn by war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 07:01 PM

Family stories are interesting, but if you ever watch Henry Louis Gates' Finding Your Roots, they're made to be debunked. And as an NPS interpretive historian at Ellis Island leading tours and answering questions, it was one we most frequently had to tell people was wrong. With all of the stuff people keep, there was never a shred of evidence that turned up saying "your new name is X."


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 09:36 PM

I doubt very much whether sliding into a wider war would do anything to reduce the number of Ukrainians killed. World Wars just don't work like that.

In a world with nuclear weapons there is no prospect of victory for anyone in such a war. The only way the Putin regime will lose power is if his backers and supporters turn against him. Humiliation in Ukraine is the way that could come about, and more direct involvement of Nato serves to preserve him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 22 - 10:50 PM

I think it was former Labor Secretary Robert Reich who wrote today about Russia on the verge of defaulting on paying millions on loan interest. They can't get the dollars with which it must be paid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 07:43 AM

I read this morning that the website for UK people wanting to offer some living space to Ukrainian refugees has crashed due to overload. This is very generous of all those who have offered. But the Visa-processing by the UK Border Agency is going to hold things up for ages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 08:09 AM

You can only register if you know the names of those you are offering space to. Bit of a waste of time really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Mar 22 - 11:51 AM

we should have an advantage as we have a daughter who works for a ukranian business in tallinn. we are hoping they can put us in touch with someone or two who needs help


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Mar 22 - 06:51 PM

Last week Fresh Air had Masha Gessen on for the full show. I'd been waiting to hear her take, because she's reported and written on the phenomenon of Putin and the Russian/ Ukraine war extensively. It was quite interesting, just not too cheerful.

Last night (15MAR2022) the PBS show Frontline covered Putin's Road to War.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 12:41 PM

Putin makes an issue of Ukraine wanting to join NATO as a reason for his invasion; on the PBS Newshour last night they had an interesting story about how this action in Ukraine is liable to push Sweden and Finland to join NATO.

Finland, Sweden move toward possible NATO membership amid Russian war in Ukraine. Finland is prepared.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 22 - 06:17 PM

That's just a pretext. Ukraine knows, and the west knows, that there is no prospect of Ukraine joining NATO. His mission is to restore the Soviet Union. A big worry is NATO's Achilles heel, the Suwalki Gap between Poland and Lithuania. It's a short stretch of border, but if Russia can take control of it, it will give Putin two advantages: first, it will enable him to connect the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad to Russia, and it would cut off the small Balkan NATO states, starting with Lithuania (any bets on their being his next target?) What's not to like, Vlad?

Of course, stepping on that border would breach the west's red line. But I think
Putin thinks we're too weak to escalate, should he do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 09:19 AM

Donald Trump would be happy to agree with you and wants America to be a great nuclear power again and use them. That blather is for his base and not his pal 'Vlad the Assailer'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 09:53 AM

Putin's getting his ass handed to him in the Ukraine, how's he going to expand elsewhere. He's calling up conscripts who have been out of the service for 10 years and putting 17-18 yr. old cadets into the field. He'll likely be moving into a personal survival mode soon, if he's not there already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 02:49 PM

As of now the main news sources (BBC,PBS,CNN) are reporting that Russia is lining up resources for a major (re)incursion in the Donbass. This was a territorial ambition of Putin/ Russia since the seizure of Crimea, as it allows a land connection from Russia proper to its purloined territory. This is the location of the existing conflict between Russian backed 'separatists' and Ukrainian forces since the Russian takeover of Crimea in 2014.

Meanwhile, the Russian cruiser Moskva has been badly damaged. The Russians reported a major fire and removal of its crew, which is about 500. There are various reports of its current status. Some reports are that it has sunk. Others that it is under tow to Sevastopol.

The Ukrainians are claiming it was hit by their missiles. In any case it is at the least an embarrassment to Russia.

With all the reports of war crimes, rocket attacks, columns of tanks and that this is the greatest land war in Europe since WW2, this is still a limited war. But it is right on the literal bleeding edge of becoming something even more horrendous and damning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Apr 22 - 09:36 PM

Since you wrote about the ship being damaged it has sunk. A major symbolic blow in a tragic war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 22 - 01:10 PM

You sunk my battleship!


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 02:28 PM

Just read Masha Gessen's https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/04/18/the-holocaust-memorial-undone-by-a
in The New Yorker. It has several items I want to remember word for word:


"The problem with Putin's revisionist history is not just the centrality of the Soviet Union and Soviet military glory; it's that, like all Russian propaganda, it intentionally sows chaos. The effect is to produce a preferred historical narrative and a sense of nihilism - a consensus that good and evil are indistinguishable, that nothing is true and everything is possible."


This is a technique that is not new, but is made much more prevalent via the internet.


It goes beyond the old saw: "The first casualty in war is the truth."


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Apr 22 - 02:45 PM

Cormac McCarthy should write an account of the war in which Russia attacks Ukraine. ala Blood Meridian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 22 - 08:30 PM

For an example of life in a post-Soviet neverland:

Journey to Transnistria: Inside Russia's Disinformation Bubble


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 03:30 AM

Interview of Volodymyr Zelensky in The Atlantic


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 10:11 AM

Steve Shaw , how do you know what Putin thinks. how do you know that Putin wants to restore the soviet union, is this another of your fantasies
.USGS estimates that Ukraine produced 525,000 tonnes of titanium mineral concentrates last year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 12:19 PM

There's really no need for a gratuitous insult, Mr Miles.

This from Fox News (yes, I do look around...):

I've read most of everything he’s written," President Biden said of Russian President Vladimir Putin last month. "He has much larger ambitions in Ukraine. He wants to, in fact, reestablish the former Soviet Union. That’s what this is about."

Many experts believe that Biden is right. In an often cited and perhaps highly revealing comment years ago, Putin said that he believed the fall of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century.


Good to know that Joe Biden shares at least one of my fantasies!

Since 2008 Putin has annexed South Ossetia, taken Chechnya (whilst razing its capital, Grozny), annexed Crimea, attempted to occupy tracts of eastern Ukraine and is now trying to take the whole of Ukraine. You can bet your bottom dollar that his next target will be the extremely vulnerable Kuwalski gap, the short border between Poland and Lithuania. He needs to take that border in order to connect the strategic Russian enclave Kaliningrad with Russia - and to cut off Lithuania from other NATO countries. The Lithuanian people are living in mortal fear.

I won't call you naive, Dick, but let's just say that Putin's aims have become more and more transparent, though you appear not to have noticed...


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 12:46 PM

Let's stop with the insults and unsolicited insults. Dick's post was *that close* to being deleted except I was waiting to see if the claim about mining titanium had anything to do with all of this. Don't feed the trolls.

From an AP update comes this tidbit:
KVIV, Ukraine — Russia has begun dropping bunker-buster bombs on a Mariupol steel plant where Ukrainians are refusing to surrender, the commander of the Azov Regiment of the National Guard said Monday.

Russia is bombing the plant even though civilians are sheltering in the plant’s tunnels. “Russian occupational forces, and their proxy ... know about the civilians, and they keep willingly firing on the factory,” he said.
Russia estimated that 2,500 Ukrainian troops and about 400 foreign mercenaries were dug in. The U.S. said nearly a dozen Russian battalion tactical groups have been tied up trying to defeat them. . . . Ukraine estimates that 21,000 people have been killed in Mariupol. Deputy Prime Minister Iryna Vereshchuk warned Russia on social media that refusing to open humanitarian corridors will justify war crimes trials. The Russians, for their part, said “neo-Nazi nationalists” have hampered evacuations.
Link (though AP links don't stay live for long).


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 05:01 PM

I based my comment on past experience, Hitlers invasion of Poland, was for resources, the polish coalfields
The Ruhr was an important industrial region of Germany close to the border with France and also home to many coalfields which were vital to Germany's industrial production and, therefore, its ability to pay reparations. Germany would sometimes


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 22 - 05:06 PM

So two Historical similarites between dictators, The need to obtain certain resources. why would Putin want to restore the soviet union.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 01:50 AM

I find Bidens analysis flawed.
There is no economic advantage to Putin in restoring the Soviet Union. There are economic advantages to invading the Ukraine. There are also long term economic advantages in waging war, again if we use historical comparisopns which are based on fairly recent historical experience
e.g the UK economy after the second world war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 02:00 AM

"The need to obtain certain resources. why would Putin want to restore the soviet union."

Well once he restores the Soviet Union he has access to all the resources.

You keep on answering your own question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 03:17 AM

He does not have to restore the soviet union to access resources.The resources he is after, imo are in the ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 03:24 AM

Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Belorussia, Uzbekistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Latvia, ...
Rain dog. explain the resources in each of these countries that you think Putin is after.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 04:20 AM

It is not nitpicking to remind you, again, that it is never "the Ukraine." That is regarded as offensive by many Ukrainian people and should never be used. Just "Ukraine" is the name of the country.

If Putin had thought that invading Ukraine was economically advantageous, well the first few days of the invasion would have disabused him of that. He has met stern resistance which will continue long after any "victory" he achieves. To gain economic advantage, he needs a complicit population. That will never happen. In addition, he has trashed so much of the infrastructure of the country that it would cost him many billions to restore. Finally, he is facing massive sanctions that will economically damage Russia for decades to come and, at least in part, prevent him from raising the military resources need to continue his expansionism. The invasion of Ukraine is grounded in pro-Soviet ideology. That's what drives him. He might try to annexe the smaller Baltic states, but that will start a war with Nato that will staunch his expansionism for good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 08:29 AM

Similar to the US, the Russain troops are mostly composed of those in poverty and ethnic minorities. As those Russians see first hand full pharmacies and grocery stores in Ukraine some eyes have been opened as to the standard of living in contrast to Mother/Putin Russia.
This will pose even more opposition to Putin in the long run on a grass roots level as those troops will obviously blame Putin for their plight and poverty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 09:18 AM

I can only hope we don't let hate win.
The lucky few know how they will personally do this.
The rest of us will require soul searching for their own way to not let hate win, not only regarding war but every aspect of life.
The challenge is that natural compassion and empathy is absent in 20% of us. War is the wholesale carnage of hate.
The heartless Soviet style Putin is not that different from our own local bigot.
Social psychopaths are selling it. Buy into it at your own peril.
Its better to be clever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 09:59 AM

btw, war has always driven ~half the sane participants crazy with PTSD and often ends badly with suicide epidemics. Brave new world push button war included.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 10:09 AM

An update from the Wall Street Journal:

Russian Offensive Bears Down on Donbas as West Races to Supply Ukraine With More Weapons
Ukraine is reinforcing units as it also counterattacks southeast of Kharkiv
In the Donbas port city of Mariupol, besieged by Russian forces since late February, the remaining Ukrainian defenders warned that time was running out and asked to be evacuated to a third country, alongside the wounded and the civilians sheltering in the shrinking area under Ukrainian control. Russia has insisted on an unconditional surrender and kept pounding the Ukrainian forces—who are mostly holed up in the sprawling Azovstal steel plant—with artillery and airstrikes.

Ukraine’s General Staff said in its Wednesday briefing that Russian forces had tried to attack the Ukrainian-controlled part of Donbas from the north and northwest, with artillery barrages followed by probes of weak points in Ukrainian defenses all along the front line. After seizing the town of Kreminna over the weekend and advancing toward the villages of Torske and Zelena Dolyna, Russian forces are regrouping ahead of a renewed push toward the town of Lyman, northeast of one of the main cities in Ukrainian-held Donbas, Slovyansk, the Ukrainian military added.

Large cities in the east have rubble where large apartment buildings used to sand, but Ukrainians are thinking ahead:
Pointing out that a new development plan for London was designed in 1943, after the British capital was ravaged by Nazi bombing, Mr. Terekhov said that he now is working with British architect Norman Foster on a project to rebuild Kharkiv once the war ends.

Photos in the article are striking. Perhaps most awful is the fire rescue crew preparing to zip up a body bag to move to the vehicle. The only parts of the body in view are a hand, part of a pants leg, and most striking, a stream of blood running away from the body in the street's gutter.

They've been asking for weapons for weeks.
“If we had obtained in the first week of the war what we are receiving today, it would have been much more useful for Ukraine and the cause of freedom in Europe,” Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said in his Tuesday night address.

He notes that if that equipment arrives now it will save lives.

I suspect western powers thought Ukraine would crumble and weapons wouldn't be of use, only be captured. Now they're getting the idea Ukraine means business. Better late than never.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Fight in Ukraine - April 16, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 22 - 10:24 AM

If this was chess, Ukraine is playing for a draw.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 04:07 AM

More than 25 nations have joined in purchasing and delivering weapons to support Ukraine’s war effort. The U.S. has sent billions of dollars in missiles, ammunition and other items to the front. The EU signed off on a €500 million ($551 million USD) package — a first for the 27-country European bloc — to help arm Ukraine. And both Finland and Germany have rewritten long-standing policy that barred exporting weapons into war zone
Sweden has sent weapons to a country at war: Ukraine. The shipments include 5,000 anti-tank weapons manufactured by Saab, plus 5,000 helmets, 5,000 body shields, and 135,000 field rations.
So far, Australia has announced AUD 116 million ($86.7 million) in military support.

EU member states exported weapons to Russia after the 2014 embargo

Despite the ongoing embargo, ten member states exported € 346 million worth of military equipment, according to public data analysed by Investigate Europe. Some of these weapons could be used against Ukraine now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 07:48 AM

Looks like you forgot to quote your source again Dick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 08:32 AM

War reporting is mistaken with repeating an endless stream of numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 22 - 12:05 PM

Biden orders short of a billion dollars of weapons for Ukraine.
It has gone from simmer to medium heat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 02:55 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY
BBC NEWSNIGHT 2014


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 03:33 AM

See, you CAN do links :-) Now all you need to do is provide an indication of why you linked the item and maybe an argument based on the content and you may start to be taken seriously!


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Apr 22 - 11:02 AM

I unfriended a woman on Facebook who forwarded propaganda from a Russian English-language source that was intentionally publishing misinformation. She "trusted the friend who shared it" and was unwilling to examine the source of the information. Goodbye.

This Nazi group may well exist in Ukraine that but isn't why Russia is invading. It's a sparkly distraction, Dick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 22 - 11:32 AM

Ethiopian men are queuing to fight for Russia - we should not give that banana republic a penny in aid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Apr 22 - 11:51 AM

Could you give us a link to the source of that information please, Bonz?


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 22 - 12:45 PM

here you go!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Apr 22 - 03:23 PM

From that link...

"What began as a trickle of volunteers swelled over two weeks to scores, two neighbourhood residents told Reuters.

On Tuesday, Reuters reporters saw several hundred men registering with Ethiopian security guards outside the embassy. The guards recorded their names and asked for proof of military service.

There is no evidence that any Ethiopians have been sent to Ukraine, nor is it clear if any ever will be."



Hmmm... hardly a flood is it? Several hundred out of a male population of 57 MILLION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You really do need to grow a sense of perspective old
boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Apr 22 - 05:30 PM

Yes there is a nazi faction in Ukraine like the US with its proud boys and KKK. Now they get to play war with impunity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 22 - 07:49 PM

I mean, who's side are you on here?

Fer chrissake. There have been "Nazi groups" in France for decades, and the daughter of the Nazi-in-chief is doing rather well in the polls. Germany has had issues with "Nazi groups" for decades. In the UK we've had the National Front and the BNP. You have the KKK and god knows who else. I mean, what a fine time to nitpick about possible "Nazis" in Ukraine.

Are you a Russian sympathiser by any chance? I mean, even would-be Stalinists can't exactly stomach what's going on...


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Apr 22 - 08:33 PM

Who are you addressing? Dick started it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 05:30 AM

"Hardly a flood"

Obviously, well done, they are just trying to scrounge their way into Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 05:44 AM

I was addressing the point, raised initially by Putin and which refuses to lie down, that there are "Nazis" in Ukraine. My response to that is not to deny that there may well be "Nazis" there, like everywhere else, but if you keep on raising it right now with reference to Ukraine you are simply dancing to Putin's tune.

Also, my own instinct is to refrain from watering down the term "Nazi" by using it to refer to people on the far right. Whilst we should always have our antennae tuned for people who would like nothing less than to replicate Hitler's horrors, we should remember that there are plenty of alternative ways in the English language of characterising the nastier elements of the present-day far right. And maybe we could be talking about the ones who may or may not be in Ukraine when this war is over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 06:11 AM

Have a nice day Bonz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 03:05 PM

'nazi' has already been devalued in many ways. Along with Seinfeld's "soup nazi" and various among ourselves who use it to make a point of ultimate extremism, there are almost none of the folks who fit the original description. Plenty of wanna bes but in the original street-fighting sense, the WNs of today are a bunch of disorganized slobs by comparison with the tightly disciplined germanic hordes of yore.

We should keep the focus on Putin's perversities of action and speech and the willingness of Russians to submit to this kind of 'leadership' which is sadistic and masochistic at the same time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 22 - 04:18 PM

Fascist is a useful word. Thing is, I've heard lots of people being called fascists who are not actual fascists. There's something lazy and unthinking about sticking glib labels on people. With a bit of effort and a few more well-chosen words we can easily say what we really think, if we're prepared to make the effort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Russian war crimes
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Apr 22 - 01:42 PM

Russia shuts off gas supplies to Poland and Bulgaria

Cutting off their nose to spite their face seems to be a Russian skill that they're polishing. They need cash, so stop delivering to countries that are dependent on the Russian supply. At least it's spring, hopefully the heating season is about over in those countries. Many other problems still present themselves. They can't spend dollars or Euros, but they've probably worked out another way to convert the cash.
Russia has cut off natural gas supplies to Poland and Bulgaria, dramatically escalating its response to Western sanctions imposed on Moscow over the war in Ukraine.

Russian state energy giant Gazprom said in a statement Wednesday that it had fully halted supplies to Polish gas company PGNiG and Bulgaria's Bulgargaz after they refused to meet a demand by Moscow to pay in rubles, rather than euros or dollars.

The European Commission described the decision to halt supplies as attempted "blackmail" and said it was coordinating a response among EU member states.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 22 - 05:18 PM

The US defeated the Soviet Union and cold war by out spending them.
Now with a billion US dollars thrown at Ukraine we will see a longer obvious flag war with Russia and raise the stakes.
Out spending Russia again will have consequences.
I don't have the expertise to know what they will be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Apr 22 - 07:05 PM

The link to Russia cutting off gas to Bulgaria and Poland was moved here from the war crimes thread due to protest - it doesn't really fit here either, but it doesn't need a whole new thread.

And researching the topic it looks like European countries have been looking over their shoulder at Russia for a long time, working out other fuel options. From The Economist:
The immediate effect of Russia’s latest move, which the eu has described as being a breach of contract, is limited in scope. Poland’s imports, of 10 billion cubic metres (bcm) a year, and Bulgaria’s, of 3 bcm, together account for just 8% of total eu imports. Poland’s contract with Russia was due to expire in December anyway, so the revenue Russia loses from breaching it is small. And although Bulgaria and Poland both relied on Russia for most of their gas imports, they may be able to cope without, says Xi Nan of Rystad Energy, a consultancy. Poland should start receiving gas from Norway in October. Nearby regasification terminals could help it import more liquefied natural gas (lng). Bulgaria is expected to start importing Azeri gas via Greece later this year.

Germany and Italy are most vulnerable as far as the volume they import from Russia, but that isn't their only or even largest source.
But Moscow is offering a compromise. Buyers would open two accounts with Gazprombank (a lender that is not under sanctions). They would pay euros into the first, and ask the bank to convert the sum into roubles and deposit the money into the second account, which would then be wired to Gazprom.

Many European countries dislike the plan, which would look as though they were giving in to Russian bullying and risks creating legal headaches. They will fall into three groups. One, which includes Belgium, Britain and Spain, imports little or no gas directly from Russia, and may refuse to compromise. Another group includes big buyers such as Germany and Italy, which will struggle to replace imports quickly; they may take the deal. A third set of waverers includes countries that are only partially dependent on Russia, and may also have contracts that are soon to expire.

Even this situation would create uncertainty. One country being cut off could have knock-on effects on others, for instance if gas transits through it to other places.

The result of a full-scale shutdown to Germany could lead to a global recession, according to the paper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 22 - 09:56 PM

Biden now gave Ukraine 20 billion plus in equipment and training in advanced new US weapons. Proxy wars helps the Pentagon judge their new stuff. The US military budget is 10 times Russia's so we're on the way to out spending them again. If this were chess Ukraine just got 2 more queens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 16 May 22 - 02:31 PM

Ukraine has been host to many Western political leaders. The most 'hopeful' sign for me has been when U.S. House Speaker Mitch McConnell and a select group of Republican movers and shakers paid a visit to Kyiv and shared selfies with Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

So Putin has contributed to a certain amount of bipartisanship in US Gummint.

Politics, War, Unfamiliar Bedfellows etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 May 22 - 10:32 AM

If you saw the smiles that greeted Pelosi and Blinkin, they weren't present except for stiff formality when McConnell and Cornyn visited. Zelinskyy knows who let Trump get away with holding back financial support, and who made it look like the US didn't care if Russia invaded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 17 May 22 - 03:31 PM

Interesting. I did't look at the photo ops that carefully. Regardless, I think the presence of our politicos is worth something in itself. Same thing with the European leaders and the application for NATO membership projected for Finland and Sweden.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 May 22 - 06:55 PM

Right now Ukraine is watching their soldiers pulling out of the steel works and surrendering to Russia. Sad day. All talks are off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 02:31 PM

FYI
Interesting article
in the Guardian about the current situation and the issues that have been gone over in this thread about whether this is effectively a proxy war and if so what are the responsibiliities of 'allies' in more and more dying in what is going to be at worst a stalemate and at best a war of attrition.

Note: The article is a Guardian article by Simon Tisdall but the link is through msn: just came out:


"Timid Biden condemns Ukrainians to an agonising war without end."


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jun 22 - 03:13 PM

It is easy to criticize from the cheap seats.

Deciding what is provocation and what isn't, as far as what Putin says is too much - and not letting him get away with that - it's a difficult job.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 06:46 PM

As the bread basket of eastern Europe Ukraine and Putin are talking about a way to get grain out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 07:41 PM

Turkey may be getting involved in that, I heard recently. Turkey needs to clean up its act on a number of fronts, so maybe this is an attempt toward that end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 22 - 08:19 PM

With respect to the country's wishes, I'll refer to Türkiye from now on. We could do it for Kyiv, after all.

Yes, Türkiye needs to clean up its act on a number of fronts. As does Israel, the countries that support that regime's actions, Saudi Arabia, China, the US, the UK and so on ad nauseam. I don't say this in a spirit of whataboutery, just to point out that it's easy to make sideswipes at countries we don't happen to like very much whilst giving the others a bye. In any case, I would imagine that it's just as much in Türkiye's interests to sort the grain problem out as it is with many other countries. Erdogan doesn't strike me as the sort of man who would give a rat's bottom about his image in the west.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jun 22 - 03:31 PM

Grain in port rots faster than silo grain.

All 3 regional bridges to eastern Ukraine are blown up. Russain artillery outnumbers Ukraine by 15 to 1. Reports are dire for poor
Ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jul 22 - 11:02 PM

So very much news is coming out all at once: NATO exerecises in Romania, Ukrainian prisoners being exploded in Russian detention, sophisticated Western weaponry still being delivered to and used by Ukraine. Russian recruitment difficulties.

It is looking like Russia is in need of a metaphor. The ones I come up with vary between painting herself in a corner and going out on a steeper and frailer precipice.

While it is in a phase of a 'war of attrition' what is being attrited is different for both sides, and the sourcing of fresh men and materiel is likewise different for both sides.


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