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BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022

robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 02:58 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 22 - 05:12 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 22 - 05:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Feb 22 - 06:00 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 22 - 06:19 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 07:07 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 22 - 07:13 AM
robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 07:40 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Feb 22 - 08:09 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 09:11 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 10:57 AM
meself 24 Feb 22 - 11:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Feb 22 - 12:20 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 12:43 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 12:45 PM
robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 01:07 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Feb 22 - 01:09 PM
robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 01:23 PM
robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 01:38 PM
robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 01:40 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 04:22 PM
Monique 24 Feb 22 - 06:04 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 22 - 08:57 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Feb 22 - 09:52 PM
robomatic 24 Feb 22 - 09:53 PM
keberoxu 24 Feb 22 - 10:11 PM
Donuel 24 Feb 22 - 11:55 PM
Bonzo3legs 25 Feb 22 - 02:20 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Feb 22 - 02:34 AM
Bonzo3legs 25 Feb 22 - 04:54 AM
Bonzo3legs 25 Feb 22 - 05:26 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Feb 22 - 05:28 AM
Senoufou 25 Feb 22 - 05:41 AM
robomatic 25 Feb 22 - 02:09 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 Feb 22 - 02:48 PM
Stilly River Sage 25 Feb 22 - 02:55 PM
Stilly River Sage 25 Feb 22 - 03:09 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Feb 22 - 06:23 PM
Stilly River Sage 25 Feb 22 - 09:58 PM
Jeri 26 Feb 22 - 09:09 AM
robomatic 26 Feb 22 - 05:15 PM
robomatic 26 Feb 22 - 06:08 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Feb 22 - 04:14 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Feb 22 - 05:44 AM
Bonzo3legs 27 Feb 22 - 06:43 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Feb 22 - 09:46 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Feb 22 - 11:01 AM
robomatic 27 Feb 22 - 04:16 PM
Neil D 27 Feb 22 - 11:20 PM
The Sandman 28 Feb 22 - 02:59 AM

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Subject: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 02:58 AM

Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Putin, long serving president of Russia, does not want Ukraine to EVER be a member of NATO. This may be related to the fact that he seized Crimea from Ukraine in 2014 after Ukraine voted for their own president who favored a closer connection with western Europe.

Now, Ukrainians and Russians are two separate peoples with two separate languages and a host of religious distinctions. It is like but distinct from the relationship between Ireland and England. There is a lot of cultural crossover and cultural 'take'over along with a lot of love and hate, including a shared history with a lot of bitterness and yet a lot of intermarriage.

But the distinctions remain. In the 80s I was at an aircraft convention visited by one of the second-largest cargo planes in the world, the Antonov 124. I tried to speak to the crew in Russian only to be told with a smile but firmly "we are all Ukrainians!".
There are many places in the U.S. and Canada with large Slavic populations, and while they will organize that way the cultural distinctions are never forgot.

There has been a low level war being waged by Russian imported militiamen that have kept the Ukrainians on a slow bleed. It seems to me along the lines of a fat playground bully grabbing a small child and telling him to "stop hitting yourself!"

Ukraine has its own problems but has been struggling with some success on getting itself out of the morass of political corruption that has embedded its much larger neighbor. But its paying the price in blood and land.

So Ukraine is on my mind tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 05:12 AM

I might find myself in a horrid, disparaged minority here, but my first reaction to this is to avoid a military fightback at all costs, both from Ukraine and most definitely from the west. I think that, for Ukraine, that would be a bloody and hopeless cause. Over the coming days and weeks we can talk about ramping up sanctions and sending Russia to Coventry. We are dealing with an unstable maniac with a nuclear trigger at his disposal, and nobody but nobody can ever tell him what he can and can't do. That should inform our response, which should be measured and without kneejerk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 05:25 AM

I suppose that the downside of what I've just said is that such an approach might embolden him. But the next step in his mission to reinstate the USSR (there's little doubt that that's what he's up to) would be to invade a NATO country, and that would mean a world war...

With the toughest sanctions in place, including lots of steps that would hurt us as well as him, and a massive commitment needed from him to ramping up his military, he will eventually impoverish his own country to the point of starvation. In the long run, the ordinary Russian people could be our best friends...

Something inside me tells me that the very last thing we want to see right now is bloodshed in every news bulletin for weeks or months...


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 06:00 AM

I don't think he wants to reinstate the USSR but rather the Russian Empire with him as Tzar. His biggest fear is that the Russian people will revolt again so, yes, they are definitely our best hope at the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 06:19 AM

Don't underestimate his ambition. When the Wall came down he was one of the most bitter men in Russia and his bitterness at the loss of the USSR has not diminished.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 07:07 AM

Trump gave Putin ideas, I am sure. Since Trump didn't just hand over Ukraine by completely shutting down NATO (he did gut it), Putin's acting now before NATO gains its full strength. This isn't difficult to read.

Not fight? Just roll over? I think not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 07:13 AM

I didn't say roll over. I said avoid bloodshed and hit Russia as hard as is humanly possible with sanctions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 07:40 AM

I might be crediting the allies a bit much, here, but I think the heavy use of media to throw light on Russia acting out "false flag" operations and keeping up the hue and cry is a tactic to avoid military confrontation. Sending Americans to the local NATO member states shows we're serious without the kind of bluster the Russians and FOX are employing.

I suspect that Putin is not as sane as he appears, although I think he is trying to capture a land bridge to Crimea, which might seem to be a practical goal in a context more suitable to Germany and the Sudetenland in 1938.

Our local NPR plays BBC World Service through the night. Right now "Hard Talk" is on with a Russian MP Vitaly Millonov spouting utter rubbish. I might have to turn this off for sleep and sanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 08:09 AM

Very worrying to hear Putin making thinly disguised threats of the use of nuclear weapons against any country who attempts ‘interference’ with his invasion of the Ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 09:11 AM

From from British Pathe, The Atlantic Pact 1949. NATO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 10:57 AM

I shared this in a new thread above. Suffering, a Ukrainian song performed by the late (and very great!) Ukrainian-American Peter Ostroushko in 2014 at The Concert for Ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: meself
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 11:05 AM

I think it was a mistake for Biden to be so forthright about not sending American troops into Ukraine; he could have kept Putin - and his cronies - wondering.

Interesting that Putin made such a show of humiliating that govt minister in his televised cabinet meeting - he seemed to feel the need to make it clear that he's the boss. Almost as if not everybody's heart is really in this adventure ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 12:20 PM

I would recommend the book A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian for anyone who wants a view of the Ukraines relationship with the USSR. It's very funny and well written too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 12:43 PM

Fiona Hill was the State Department Russia expert who testified during the first Trump impeachment (and why the hell those didn't stick and solve some of this problem . . . )

Fiona Hill says that Trump emboldened Putin to invade Ukraine by treating the country like a 'playground'
Fiona Hill criticized Donald Trump's approach to foreign policy, especially regarding Russia.
In an interview with CNN, Hill, an expert on Russia who advised Trump, addressed the contrasts between Trump's approach to foreign policy and President Joe Biden's.

She said Trump's foreign policy had not been driven by concern about the US national interest, but by personal interests and impulses.

"There's no Team America for Trump," Hill said. "Not once did I see him do anything to put America first. Not once. Not for a single second."

Hill recalled Trump's praise for Russia's authoritarian leader, Vladimir Putin, as well as his disdain for NATO. She also mentioned his campaign to pressure Ukraine for manufactured dirt about Biden in the run-up to the 2020 election. The Ukraine pressure campaign saw Trump threaten to withhold military aid from the nation, which led to his first impeachment.

"All this did was say to Russia that Ukraine was a playground," Hill said, drawing a direct line to events today, as Russia has amassed a huge military force around Ukraine, prompting fears in the US and European countries that a military strike is imminent.

Hill shot to prominence when she testified during Trump's 2019 impeachment hearings, rebutting conspiracy theories promoted by Trump allies that sought to excuse Russia of blame for interfering in the 2016 election, and explaining how Russia was seeking to sow domestic discord in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 12:45 PM

It's pretty clear from the justifications he offers and his rambling speeches that Putin caught whatever Trump has. Or vice-versa. It's personal, this assault on Ukraine.

And while I'm at posting articles, here's another one. Defend Chernobyl During an Invasion? Why Bother, Some Ukrainians Ask. Ukraine has initiated a defensive strategy for the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, one of the most radioactive places on Earth, which lies on the shortest path between Russia and Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv.
CHERNOBYL, Ukraine — Ukrainian soldiers, Kalashnikov rifles slung over their shoulders, patrolled through a silent, snowy forest, passing homes so long abandoned that vines twirl through the broken windows.

The fields are fallow, the cities deserted and the entire Chernobyl zone in northern Ukraine is still so radioactive it would seem the last place on Earth anybody would want to conquer.

But while most of the attention around a potential invasion by Russia is focused on troop buildups and daily hostilities in the east, the shortest route from Russia to Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv, is from the north. And it passes through the isolated zone around the Chernobyl power plant, where the meltdown of a reactor in 1986 caused the worst nuclear disaster in history.

In one of the incongruities of war, that makes Chernobyl an area that Ukraine thinks it needs to defend, forcing its military to deploy security forces into the eerie and still radioactive forest, where they carry both weapons and equipment to detect radiation exposure. . . .Two months ago, the government deployed additional forces into the area, because of increased tensions with Russia and Belarus, a Kremlin ally whose border is five miles from the stricken reactor and where Russia has recently moved troops.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 01:07 PM

whitehouse.gov says Biden will address the nation 1:30 PM Eastern Time.

Great links being added to the thread!


Differences between Russian and Ukrainian languages


There is a haunting Ukrainian song that was being aired about eight years ago. It was a song from a dying soldier to his mother and her answer back but I haven't found it on the internet yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 01:09 PM

”I would recommend the book A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian for anyone who wants a view of the Ukraines relationship with the USSR. It's very funny and well written too.

Written by Marina Lewycka, who was a class-mate of mine through school. A very nice, well-spoken girl with a lovely Ukrainian accent! My dad worked with her dad for a short time - the stories he told about the Russians, and how he was treated by them during WW2, were toe-curling.

‘Tractors’ is an excellent read - thoroughly recommended!


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 01:23 PM

There is an organization around Russian and Ukrainian music that is primarily east coast. The BDAA (Balalaika and Domra Association of America). Over 20 years ago I joined them for a dance class in Philadelphia. It was a wonderful and exhausting experience. Many Ukrainian Canadians showed up. It was a powerful example of people celebrating their related but distinctive cultures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 01:38 PM

"Plyve Kacha"

You can search for it under:

Pikkardiyska Tertsiya / ????????????? ?????? - Plyve kacha / ????? ????


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 01:40 PM

Sorry, those question marks came through instead of the cyrillic fonts. The song was aired a lot during the Ukrainian 'revolt' at the Maidan circa 2013-2014.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 04:22 PM

Usually we delete posts with those question marks - good thing we know who you are! I think if you go into an html directory you could find the code so those would display.

I started a thread for Ukrainian music so please also post your links to songs up there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Monique
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 06:04 PM

Піккардійська терція / Плине кача = Pikkardiyska Tertsiya /Plyve kacha


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 08:57 PM

It's been a long day, and I haven't changed my mind much since this morning, except that I think I've underestimated the sentiment of the brave Ukrainians to fight back, which I respect greatly. We've had the telly on all day today, following all this, and rolling news isn't always as informative as you'd like it to be. But the brave BBC Moscow correspondent (Steve Rosenberg) has spoken to a lot of ordinary Russians and has tried to get the feel of their sentiment, and has come to the view that the majority of Russians are bitterly opposed to what Putin is doing. Putin is not Russia, and Russia does not want to be hated by the world. You can't protest openly in Russia without the risk of police thuggery, arrest then God knows what, but I still think that, in the end, the ordinary Russian people will win this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 09:52 PM

Yes, I was seeing news feeds this evening showing a lot of Russians, all over the country, protesting this war, many arrested in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 09:53 PM

Putin has autocratic powers which too much of the world admires these days. It is a powerful caution that this still exists and in fact is making gains against democratic powers and philosophy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 10:11 PM

The reason I'm watching this with dread, is that it just happens that
I have been reading, lately, about
the Armistice, the Paris Peace Conference, the Treaty of Versailles, and the League of Nations,
that followed upon the Great War.

Just such a sense of foreshadowing.
It was 1919, over a hundred years ago.
And yet such deep roots for the conflict and intolerance
that are still tearing the world apart today.

Woodrow Wilson, somewhere across the threshold,
must be shaking his head . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Feb 22 - 11:55 PM

I wonder if Russia has another motivation to seize Chernobyl first, other than being a short cut to Kiev.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 02:20 AM

And what is biden doing - scratching his arse?????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 02:34 AM

Oh, so you fancy the idea of this whole business escalating into a nuclear conflict, eh Bonzo? President Biden is doing exactly what Johnson and other Western leaders are doing - taking part in a concerted, non-military excercise to put economic pressure on Putin in order to make him realise that invasion of a peaceful neighbouring country is not in his best interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 04:54 AM

Is there a balance of power in Europe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 05:26 AM

“No war has the honesty to confess: I kill to steal.”

Wars always invoke noble motives, kill in the name of peace, in the name of god, in the name if civilization, in the name Of progress, in the name OF democracy and if by doubts, if so much lie did not reach, there are the big media willing to invent communication imaginary enemies to justify the conversion of the world into a big madhouse and an immense slaughterhouse.

In Rey Lear, Shakespeare had written that in this world the mad lead the blind and four centuries later, the masters of the world are mad in love with death that have made the world a place where every minute they starve or enf healing 10 children and every minute $3 million, three million dollars per minute are spent on the military industry which is a death factory.

Guns require wars and wars require weapons and the five countries that run the United Nations, which have veto rights at the United Nations, also happen to be the top five gun producers.

One wonders How long ? Until when will world peace be in the hands of those who do the business of war?

Until when will we continue to believe that we are born for mutual extermination and that mutual extermination is our destiny?

Until when? "

#EduardoGaleano #paz #Ucrania
March for Peace and Non-Violence - October 2009


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 05:28 AM

Putin has calculated that he can ride out whatever sanctions the west can throw at him. There are already splits: we can't agree that we should exclude Russia from the SWIFT international banking system (used to pay him for Russian oil and gas, for example). A couple of weeks ago he was cosying up to the equally nasty charlatan President Xi. You can bet your life that there will be plenty of sanctions mitigations coming from that quarter, and Xi will be watching with interest to see if there's a template here for taking Taiwan. This next bit might seem trivial, but Russia is a football-mad country which has now had the prestigious Champions League (aka European Cup, as was) final taken away. Russia still has teams in European competitions as well as an interest in the forthcoming World Cup. Take all that away (which I think should be done), and there are going to be tens of millions of very angry Russians, and it won't be us who they blame. I think that Russian public opinion turning against Putin is almost the only hope of drawing his sting. He's a nasty piece of work and will use brutal methods to suppress dissent, but, unlike in the bad old Cold War days, he won't be able to hide what he does from the world behind a wall of secrecy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 05:41 AM

I would imagine the Russian people are cringing with fear at the more-than-likely reprisals that will follow from other nations. If this escalates into a war, they will suffer too. If it goes nuclear (God save us!) they will not want that, surely?


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 02:09 PM

This is a link to an NPR interview with author Masha Gessen in 2014. It reads as if from the present but there are a few changes worth noting.

I first became aware of Masha Gessen when she was interviewed over the Ukrainian turn toward Europe and rejection of a path toward Moscow. She predicted that Putin would respond with "some form of rape" and within weeks the invasion and seizure of Crimea occurred.

I haven't found any recent interviews or comments from her but I'm still looking. She may be one of those rare commentators who refrains from saying anything when there is nothing new to say. But I'm still looking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 02:48 PM

Putin seems to crazed to worry about going nuclear, and if Putin did make a first strike, would their be any point in obliterating the rest of the world in retaliation and escalation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 02:55 PM

I was frankly astonished at a few of the high caliber people who served in the Trump State Department as his advisors on Russia and Ukraine - it's pretty clear Trump's team didn't consider it important and didn't bother to notice that Hill and Vindman were really smart people and might be a hazard to Trump in the long run. (The only pushback I heard about was when Hill suddenly found herself having to attend a meeting in the White House when she wasn't dressed for it - she had on sneakers, not pumps, and Ivanka who was also there made a big point of noticing it.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 03:09 PM

One huge collaborative effort that suddenly is endangered - the joint NASA and Russian space program.

What does the Ukraine invasion mean for US-Russian partnership in space?
Could Russia's military and political actions in Ukraine upend science and exploration in outer space?

International political tensions are high after Russia invaded Ukraine this week, with attacks beginning near the capital Kyiv as well as in Kharkiv near the Russian border. The world hasn't witnessed a "move like this, nation state-to-nation state, since World War II ... certainly nothing on this size and scope and scale," a senior U.S. defense official told reporters today (Feb. 24), CNN reported.

Russian President Vladimir Putin "has put himself on the wrong side of history," leaders of a G7 meeting said in a joint statement today, according to CNN. The meeting included U.S. President Joe Biden, who has previously voiced support for Ukraine in this conflict, among other world leaders.

The U.S. and Russia have collaborated in space for decades, but this recent action by Russia raises questions about its potential effects in space. . . .

While this mission saw the two nations briefly coming together, what came later saw the U.S. and Russia collaborate on a much larger scale, specifically in regard to the International Space Station (ISS) program as well as sharing rides to the station aboard Russian Soyuz spacecraft.

"I think part of the intent of the ISS program was to ... have a program where the U.S. and Russian space sectors were so closely tied together that it became sort of unthinkable to have conflict," David Burbach, a professor of national security affairs at the U.S. Naval War College in Rhode Island, told Space.com. (Burbach's statements are personal and do not reflect the opinion of the U.S. Navy.)

This is the stuff of science fiction stories, possibly come to life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 06:23 PM

Well there's going to be a lot of collateral damage. My personal focus is on the terrible situation in which the people of Ukraine find themselves.

I want to grasp at straws here and, whilst I don't want to sound emptily optimistic, a couple of things I'm hearing, or not hearing, today made me perk up a bit. First, I'm not sure that things have entirely gone Putin's way today. Nothing swift and clean seems to have happened, and Russia is already getting hundreds of its young men back home in body bags. It's clear that there is a big groundswell of opposition in Russia to what's going on (it's being suppressed, obviously). Thousands of Ukraine citizens have been issued with machine guns, and I'm thinking that young Russian conscripts would be reluctant to get shot at from around every corner. In many regards, Russians and Ukrainians are brothers and sisters, not mutual aliens.

Another point well made this evening by BBC correspondents and interviewees is that Ukraine is a country as big as France with a population as big as Spain's, and, while Russian military might could easily overcome the Ukrainian military, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than 150,000 troops to occupy a non-compliant country for any length of time. It seems doubtful that Putin could increase his resources sufficient to achieve that unless he seriously impoverishes his own country.

As I've said before, it could be that the ordinary Russian people may turn out to be the world's best friends...


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Feb 22 - 09:58 PM

The weapons being issued to citizens allow for a guerilla force and the US is upping the amount of weapons being sent there. Biden said that in his last press conference regarding Ukraine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Feb 22 - 09:09 AM

The short term: Putin can take Ukraine.
The long term: I don't that he can hold it, after it was a democracy for so long, and THAT feeling will spread. Also, I think, judging from what I'm seeing on the news, he has finally pushed his people too far, and begun the end to his rule. Kill the USSR twice.

I also hope Zalensky can get to safety, although his fate may be part of the story, too.

One thing this does show, and I've heard it said about the USA enough: the people are great, but the governments suck. (Disclaimer: some of our people suck, too.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 22 - 05:15 PM

Germany's PM announced that they would provide defensive arms to Ukraine. Interesting if he is certain he can still get them delivered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 22 - 06:08 PM

The more I think of it the more I think it is a serious blunder on the part of Putin. I wonder if the armed forces of Russia are prepared to shed much neighbor's blood.

Russians are legendary in repelling invaders. This is not that.

Instead they are fostering unity in Ukraine, increased admiration for their unlikely president, and justification and unity to NATO's many new members.

And I think it is going to work against Trmp and his amen corner in FOX news. (Maybe Chris Wallace timed his exit very well).

It reminds me of 1990 when Saddam Hussein massed troops on the border of Kuwait. He scared a lot of folk, and the price of oil headed for the sky. At that point he was in a bargaining position.

Then he blew it with actual military invasion. Putin may have painted himself into his own corner. Couldn't happen to a nicer son of a bitch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 04:14 AM

I agree with robo here (I don't always, but hey). I'm clinging to hope a bit too much. But this is going to go on for a good while yet. I admit that I was wrong about the need for Ukraine to not fight back. I didn't expect the response to be as brave and feisty as it's been so far. In consequence, this isn't going as well as Putin thought it would. Unfortunately, the realisation of that could make him even nastier. What we're seeing on the telly apropos of families having to leave their homes and, in many cases, their husbands, is almost too much to watch. All because a despot wants to reclaim a corrupt kingdom. I don't think we are heading for WW3 but we are certainly heading for mass cruelty visited on millions of people who just want to get on with their lives.

As for weaponry, I think we should applaud Germany for promising to provide anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry, and, up to today, at potentially at great cost to their economy, they have cancelled the new gas pipeline to Russia and agreed to suspend the SWIFT international bank transfer agreement. The US is the most powerful western military force. Ukraine is an awful long way from Washington. We have yet to see an adequate response to this dreadful attack on democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 05:44 AM

We were reminded this morning on Broadcasting House (BBC Radio 4) of a Prom concert at the Albert Hall on 21 August 1968. The Russian cellist Mstislav Rostropovich and the USSR State Symphony Orchestra under the Russian conductor Svetlanov played the Czech composer Dvorák's Cello Concerto, amid protests and calls for the concert to be cancelled. On that day and the day before, Russian tanks had rolled into Czechoslovakia. That was some coincidence and it made musical history. A tearful Slava played the concerto with passion and anger, making it "completely clear whose side he was on."

Slava promised that he would play in Prague when the last Russian boots had gone from Czech soil. He kept his word, but he had to wait for more than 20 years...

There were no protests during the actual performance. It was released on CD eventually. It is far from the tidiest version ever of Dvorák's concerto but it's an amazing and emotional listen when you recall that context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 06:43 AM

I'm hearing Vladimir Putin is now in danger of being assassinated by Russian sources close to him because they believe he's gone too far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 09:46 AM

What's your source, Bonzo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 11:01 AM

Any dictator is always in danger of being assassinated. Goes with the job. But it doesn't happen too frequently.

More significant maybe are reports of cases where movements of Russian vehicles being halted by people coming out and standing in the way. That suggests that there are Russian troops who are not too happy with this invasion. As would be expected.

This is not a repeat of Crimea where it was genuine support for the takeover - Crimea had been part of Russia, rather than Ukraine from 1754 until 1954: when Kruschev, himself a Ukrainian, transferred it formally to Ukraine, and it's clear that most people living there felt themselves to be Russian. Nor is it like Hungary in 1956, which had been allied with Germany in the in the war.

The BBC referred to polls indicate 60% Russian opposition to the wider war on Ukraine, including people who quite approved of the move to recognise the breakaway republics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 04:16 PM

This is not meant to demean the human cost in life going on as I write this, but in the OP I mentioned being at an airshow talking to the Ukrainian crew of an Antonov 124.

There was a big brother of the 124, the ANT 225, originally built to carry the Russian version of the shuttle. It is one of a kind and looks like one of a kind. It has flown constantly as a private contractor for getting incredible loads of great shape or bulk from point A to point B. To look at it you could imagine it as the perfect musclebound monster to fly anything produced by Jurassic Park! That also goes for the smaller 124, which has been the second largest plane on the planet - so far (I'm ignoring the Californian new experimental Stratolaunch for now).

There is an article from CNN with the unconfirmed report that the 225 has been destroyed.

It is definitely symbolic in this bullying war between two neighbors with such interlocking history and culture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Neil D
Date: 27 Feb 22 - 11:20 PM

Jeri said "I also hope Zalensky can get to safety, although his fate may be part of the story, too." President Zelensky does not appear to be interested in getting to safety. The U.S. government offered to evacuate the president and he said "I don't need a ride, I need ammunition." He is still hunkered down in Kyiv. I fear for this brave and noble leader, my newest hero.


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Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 22 - 02:59 AM

Bonzo, source?
Jeri reminds me of the 2000 collapse predictions, pure bollocks


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