BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 25 - 03:17 PM

That's quite an ask from Poland and leads immediately to what is the German reaction.
As with almost every aspect of this continuing issue, cooperation and alignment between the US and Europe is incredibly important, and not a good time for cheap talk about taking over stuff, buying stuff, and renaming stuff that has stood the test of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 25 - 03:06 AM

Here you go, from the BBC News app this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 07:00 PM

That, Doug, is part of the reason I prefer listening to the Beeb on the wireless: one actually gets proper headlines for multiple stories, not endless talking heads banging on about what should be one headline. But methinks I've aired that rant hereabouts before.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 01:54 PM

I'm not doubting that the report appeared on the News Channel. It's just that the BBC seems to be giving it a priority below that given to having to pay to get ear wax removed and a baby wombat being taken from its mother.

Poland may have asked for nuclear weapons to be deployed, but how likely is it to happen?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 12:11 PM

”There is nothing about it on the BBC website, nor on the BBC television News at One.”

I didn’t claim it was on the website or BBC TV News at One. I saw it numerous times in the ‘bar’ at the bottom of the screen which announces ‘Headlines’ in ‘Breaking’ news. This was this morning, on the BBC News Channel.

It’s also widely reported on other news resources, such as this one.

Let Google be your friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 10:29 AM

Ukraine is no doubt kicking itself now for giving up those weapons. At the time it made sense.

This week I was talking to a cousin I haven't heard from in ages and she quoted a line from Lehrer's "National Brotherhood Week" about "be nice to people who are inferior to you" but she might have made a better reference with "Son Long, Mom (A Song for World War III)". That feels like a result of the Trump/Putin pact.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 09:43 AM

Reported on BBC News Channel this morning that Poland has requested the US to provide them with nuclear weapons to counter the threat from Russia.

There is nothing about it on the BBC website, nor on the BBC television News at One.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 08:01 AM

At the time of Ukraine’s independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine held the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world, including an estimated 1,900 strategic warheads, 176 intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs), and 44 strategic bombers. By 1996, Ukraine had returned all of its nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for economic aid and security assurances,

From Here

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 07:52 AM

Donny accused Velodimir of starting WWIII in the infamous White House meeting.
Why wouldn't Poland ask France or Britain? Trump is not in a giving mood. It was Putin who first threatened nuclear weapons in Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 06:59 AM

Reported on BBC News Channel this morning that Poland has requested the US to provide them with nuclear weapons to counter the threat from Russia.

Oh Donny, what have you started? WW3 looms ever larger. :-/

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Mar 25 - 07:21 AM

Ignored with loyalty.

Intelligence from the US will resume in Ukraine if it can be trusted now.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 25 - 03:21 AM

Aren’t there rules in place which prevent a President from using his Presidency to promote and enrich his own business interests? Or are they simply being ignored by the Orange Felon?

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 25 - 03:14 AM

Spot-on, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Mar 25 - 10:47 PM

No, Trump doesn't have a sense of justice. He has extorted Ukraine to the point that they had no more US weapon support and the US turned off the intelligence sharing leaving them blind. Musk has no doubt been threatening to turn off the Starlink for internet access and communications (apparently Poland pays for a subscription for Ukraine). He sees a profit in getting access to minerals from Ukraine, nothing less than profits ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 11 Mar 25 - 10:43 PM

So the Trump now realizes Ukraine did not invade Russia. The man on the plot changes it. The present peace agreement proposal perhaps shows he finely has a semblance of justice. USSR decision now that I have little hope for, but we will see

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Mar 25 - 03:51 PM

That 'power behind the power' is far from the whole story. As a country we would be more stable if there was more to Sandman's premise. We could go back to ethnic stereotypes for who is really running events. Easier to take than believing in a very large baby who argues from the point of view of his diaper.

There is a global theme: Challenging Democracy at all levels and locations.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Mar 25 - 05:13 PM

Sandman has a point, however, if we go beyond puppetry, Trump is now wielding real destructive, capricious power. His tariff concept is as infantile as his bleach and light therapy for Covid.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 25 - 10:12 AM

Georgian Silver you do not seem to understand where the real power lies Trump is only a puppet, the real power lies with the bankers, and the financial institutions.
A previous example of someone who thought she had more power than she had was Mrs Thatcher, her time came and went and allegedly she could not believe it and drank a bottle of whisky on the night she was deposed

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Mar 25 - 06:25 PM

I thought 'Saturday Night Live's Cold Open Cold Open was damn near perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Mar 25 - 02:03 PM

Big question!! IIs WW3 going to be Putin, Trump and Musk against the rest of the world?? Three megalomaniacs seeking power and possession!!

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 25 - 01:36 PM

Russia will not have to pay anything, unless you make them.
However, this is the sad thing bout capitalism, The ukraine economy,will experience a boom with the rebuilding after the destruction, this is what seems to happen, if we look at history

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 25 - 01:24 PM

To date, Germany has paid 90 billion dollars to holocaust survivors.
How much should Russia pay for 20,000 stolen children? How much for rebuilding? How much to families of the murdered?

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 25 - 12:18 PM

Who will pay reparations to whom?
Usually, it is the country that accepts unconditional surrender.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 25 - 12:01 PM

Pres. Zelenskyy now saying that he ‘wants to make things right’ with the Mango Mussolini, and that he’s ready to come to the negotiating table ASAP.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Mar 25 - 08:06 AM

No one is favour of the war apart from Putin, Dick, but no one is in favour of capitulation by Ukraine either. I posted this on the other thread but it vanished in your spate of nonsense there.

In 1938 the Munich agreement was reached between Germany, The UK, France and Italy. It allowed Hitler to keep parts of Czechoslovakia in exchange for a peace deal in Europe. Chamberlain came back home waving a piece of paper and declaring "Peace in our time". We all know what happened a year later. If you believe for one minute that giving Putin buts of Ukraine and Trump waving his "Peace in our time" agreement will be any different, then you are dafter than I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 25 - 03:29 AM

Thanks for moving the Lech Walesa piece SRS, you’re right, it makes better sense here.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Mar 25 - 02:19 AM

Another long C&P here from the FB Page of Lech Walesa, the former Prime Minister of Poland, and leader of the Solidarity Union, and former political prisoner. A letter he has written to The School Bully in reaction to the appalling Oval Office debacle. (Apologies SRS, but the original is in Polish, and only those logged-in to FB will be able to see the translation to English).

”Your Excellency, Mr. President,

We watched the report of your conversation with the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelensky, with fear and distaste. We find it insulting that you expect Ukraine to show respect and gratitude for the material assistance provided by the United States in its fight against russia. Gratitude is owed to the heroic Ukrainian soldiers who shed their blood in defense of the values of the free world. They have been dying on the front lines for more than 11 years in the name of these values and the independence of their homeland, which was attacked by Putin’s russia.

We do not understand how the leader of a country that symbolizes the free world cannot recognize this.

Our alarm was also heightened by the atmosphere in the Oval Office during this conversation, which reminded us of the interrogations we endured at the hands of the Security Services and the debates in Communist courts. Prosecutors and judges, acting on behalf of the all-powerful communist political police, would explain to us that they held all the power while we held none. They demanded that we cease our activities, arguing that thousands of innocent people suffered because of us. They stripped us of our freedoms and civil rights because we refused to cooperate with the government or express gratitude for our oppression. We are shocked that President Volodymyr Zelensky was treated in the same manner.

The history of the 20th century shows that whenever the United States sought to distance itself from democratic values and its European allies, it ultimately became a threat to itself. President Woodrow Wilson understood this when he decided in 1917 that the United States must join World War I. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt understood this when, after the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, he resolved that the war to defend America must be fought not only in the Pacific but also in Europe, in alliance with the nations under attack by the Third Reich.

We remember that without President Ronald Reagan and America’s financial commitment, the collapse of the Soviet empire would not have been possible. President Reagan recognized that millions of enslaved people suffered in Soviet russia and the countries it had subjugated, including thousands of political prisoners who paid for their defense of democratic values with their freedom. His greatness lay, among other things, in his unwavering decision to call the USSR an “Empire of Evil” and to fight it decisively. We won, and today, the statue of President Ronald Reagan stands in Warsaw, facing the U.S. Embassy.

Mr. President, material aid—military and financial—can never be equated with the blood shed in the name of Ukraine’s independence and the freedom of Europe and the entire free world. Human life is priceless; its value cannot be measured in money. Gratitude is due to those who sacrifice their blood and their freedom. This is self-evident to us, the people of Solidarity, former political prisoners of the communist regime under Soviet russia.

We call on the United States to uphold the guarantees made alongside Great Britain in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, which established a direct obligation to defend Ukraine’s territorial integrity in exchange for its relinquishment of nuclear weapons. These guarantees are unconditional—there is no mention of treating such assistance as an economic transaction.

Signed,

Lech Walesa, former political prisoner, President of Poland

---

Moved from the Trump/Convicted felon thread - it fits here better. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Mar 25 - 11:24 AM

Dick, Trump and his group ganged up on Zelenskyy. How long have you been donating to the GOP and Trump's campaign fund? Did you buy some crypto currency lately? Clearly you drank the Kool-Aid.

Meanwhile, it is possible to support Ukraine directly without waiting for the US to do the right thing. United24 - Official Fundraising Platform of Ukraine.

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Mar 25 - 11:12 AM

”why dont you lot go and volunteer to fight for zilensky, if you are so fond of fighting, you swallow without question the propaganda you are fed in the news,
here are some facts, ukraine has been losing this war.
the usa has finally decided to try and make a deal, zilensky wants to continue and is prepared to carry on regardless of how many more are killed”

Stupid Boy! (Spoken in the voice of Capt. Mainwaring when addressing Pte. Pike in ‘Dads’ Army’).

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Mar 25 - 02:13 AM

The whole business is utterly horrific - it’s 1930s Germany, it’s 1960s USSR, it’s 21st-century Russia. The POTUS and VP behaving like the despotic rulers of a banana republic.

Yet here, we’re not seeing any worthwhile reaction reported from the GOP, or from the 77million. Why not?

Subject: RE: Convicted felon US 47th President/ Musk Coup
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Mar 25 - 01:41 PM

Dick, do you think that letting letting Putin keep everything he has encroached on since 2014 is "stopping a war?" It's appeasing a dictator who will keep taking more. Illustrated.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 01:11 PM

Yesterday was not usual protocol. Who could have expected such a crass display? (Well now we all will, all of the time.) The senate approve Rubio as Secretary of State thinking he might be a grownup in the room. That seems not to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 12:54 PM

Not sure Zelenskyy had much choice yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 12:38 PM

The King is not supposed to interfere in political matters so it is meaningless.
Zelensky made a big mistake agreeing top do an interview with two people, Trump and Vance intent on opposing him., imo, he has not got much tactical shrewdness.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 12:12 PM

I'll put this in both threads (delete as appropriate):

Just announced in the last hour: Zelenskyy is going to meet the King tomorrow, as part of his UK visit. Someone's got balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 03:57 AM

From ‘Occupy Democrats ‘ FB Page today. (BTW, I quote sources such as OD because they express my views far more eloquently than I am able myself). The emboldening is mine…

BREAKING: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy breaks his silence on Donald Trump's disastrous Oval Office outburst with stunning grace and class — but refuses to apologize to Trump as demanded by MAGA.

And the best part? He did it on Fox News.

This is what a real world leader sounds like...

"President Trump said after your meeting that you disrespected him and the vice president and all of America in the Oval Office," said Fox News' Bret Baier when Zelenskyy appeared on his show. "Do you think you did? And do you think you owe an apology to President Trump?"

"Thank you so much. First of all, thank you for the invitation, for this dialogue and good evening to all of your country, to all Americans," said Zelenskyy. "I'm very thankful to Americans for all your support. You did a lot. I'm thankful to President Trump and to Congress's bipartisan support and I was always very thankful from all of our people."

"You helped us a lot from the very beginning, here in three years of full scale invasion. You helped us to survive and anyway we are strategic partners," he continued.

"And even in such tough dialogue — and I think we have to be very honest and we have to be very direct to understand each other because it's for us very necessary," said Zelenskyy.

"To President Trump — and with all respect that he wants to finish this war — but nobody wants to finish more than we because we in Ukraine we are in this war, we are in this battle for freedom, for our lives," he went on.

"So I'm just telling that I think we have to be on the same side and I hope that the president on our side together with us and that is very important to stop Putin," continued Zelenskyy. "And I heard from President Trump a lot of times that he will stop the war and I hope he will. And we need to pressure him with Europe, with all the partners."

"And I think this dialogue had to be a little bit earlier to understand where we are," he continued. "Like you know, I don't remember exactly, but like President Reagan said that peace is not just the absence of war."

"Yes, we are speaking about just, lasting peace, about freedom, about justice, about human rights and that's why I said that 'I think so' to ceasefire," he went on. "And you know Putin, he's broken twenty-five times ceasefire during all these years, ten years."

"So I'm not hearing from you Mr. President a thought that you owe the president an apology," said Baier, clearly trying to pander to Trump who was almost certainly watching at home.

"No I respect the president and I respect the American people and if — I don't know, I think that we have to be very open and very honest and I'm not sure that we did something bad," replied Zelenskyy.

"I think maybe somethings we have to discuss out of media, with all respect to democracy and free media but there are things where we have to understand the position of Ukraine and Ukrainians," he added. "And I think that is the most important thing."

"We are partners. We are very close partners. We have to be fair. We have to be very free," said Zelenskyy, sounding far more like an American president than Donald Trump did today.

This is an astonishing display of statesmanship. Rather than give into ego or pettiness, Zelenskyy is rising above Donald Trump's childish bullying to serve his people.

Zelenskyy isn't interested in following Trump down into the gutter. He's interested in securing a lasting peace for his innocent embattled country, a task made all the more difficult by Trump's kowtowing to Vladimir Putin.

Zelenskyy is also correct that these conversations should take place behind closed doors instead of being exploited to create a media circus. Trump and Vance ambushed him in the Oval Office in front of reporters because they knew that it would make headlines and entertain their base.

They are not serious leaders. Zelenskyy is.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 25 - 03:22 AM

Ukraine has been out maneuvered.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 09:10 PM

I do wonder if there are any Republicans left to stand up against Russian aggression.

Hopefully the majority of European countries will still support Ukraine.

The United States certainly cannot be counted upon as long as tRump is President.

This is a very sad day...

Charlie Ipcar

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 06:43 PM

--- Ah, *that*'s what catsup is: we call it ketchup in the UK. Thanks for inciting me to resolve that mystery, Stilly.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 06:39 PM

Now he's being set up on Fox News. I've come away rather than pollute my ears: I want to get some sleep tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 06:36 PM

Zelenskyy was the bigger man here, he stood up to Trump, and even after that awful photo op/row, still tried to get them to hit the reset button and move forward. Trump wasn't having it. I suspect staff are wiping catsup off of the White House dining room walls.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 06:15 PM

As far as I could see, Zelenskyy was all but set up by Bully and his boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 05:20 PM

I was going to comment further, but the 'Cat went for a nap. See also the Convicted Felon thread for more discussion .... I was doing something more constructive (watching Death in Paradise instead).

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 01:15 PM

The BBC News Channel was just showing it a few minutes ago. Trump and Vance behaving like the vile bullies they are - putting the boot into a guy fighting for his country’s life. What pieces of shit Trump and Vance are.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Feb 25 - 01:08 PM

Details coming in as we speak: Zelenskyy and tRump have had a stand-up row on camera. Please let us know, Left-Pondians, if this ever makes it to your TV screens, and in what form.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Feb 25 - 11:38 AM

> step down and not run for office

In the UK news, that was "step down in return for Ukraine getting NATO membership". (Point of information: Was that qualification snipped in US coverage?) Zelenskyy (sp?) also said he realised he probably wasn't going to be around in forty years' time, though wasn't specific who that might have been a dig at.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 25 - 09:21 AM

OK OK NAZI Russia. but seriously Putin wants to restore the USSR empire where he grew up" quote Donuel
What evidence do you have for saying this.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Feb 25 - 06:40 AM

Zelenski made his first concession which is to step down and not run for office. European leaders and Canada arrived in Ukraine by train today.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Feb 25 - 01:19 PM

The Webb might be a good place for Muck to park his space traveling Tesla. It's probably exempt from tickets.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Feb 25 - 09:58 AM

OK OK NAZI Russia. but seriously Putin wants to restore the USSR empire where he grew up. He doesn't have an ounce of Glasnost in him except in stringing Trump along.

When it comes to random cost slashing I wonder what will become of the Webb telescope. Some other astrophysics research has already lost funding. So far Dodge is not measuring once and is cutting twice.

The needs of the billionaires outweigh the needs of the many?