Help ID'ing Old Time Instrumental Songs

Subject: Help ID'ing Old Time Instrumental Songs
From: cnd
Date: 19 May 22 - 12:04 AM

A few months back in a since-lost thread by our western PEI friend M Dixon about collecting local musicians' field recordings via cassette, I lamented that I hadn't been able to find any of my own despite my large collection of music -- I only had commercially available recordings.

Well now, my search is over. During a recent camping trip, I stopped in a tiny gas station in rural NC and found a cassette put out by local mandolin player "Uncle" Dave Sturgill.

Now, the thrust of my request is this: I am no good at identifying instrumental songs. Well, at least, not much good. And this being an old-time cassette, has several of them. And since many of them are live recordings, the quality isn't always the best. So, I was hoping some of the people here on Mudcat could help me identify the tunes. I've got a video posted to YouTube.

VIDEO LINK

Almost all of the notes below are from Dave's introductions to each song, and can be heard on the video. Songs listed together between groups of dashes are (likely) from the same recording sessions and will have mostly the same musicians and recording date, unless otherwise noted.

His remarks are largely from memory, which has led to a few conflicts: for example, the first recording, "Chicken Pie," he says was recorded 1977, but the album it comes from (identified below) is widely claimed to have been released in 1975. I'm working on tracking down if that date is correct or not, but you get the idea.

(spelling of names is tentative -- I will try to make corrections in the coming days)



Track listing:

0:00 Introduction by Dave Sturgill        
  Tape made January 7th, 1991
  band originated from jam sessions in Dave Sturgill's instrument shop, Skyland Musical Instrument Company (opened 1971)
  eventually, regularly met on Fridays from 1971 through winter - organized band for conventions that spring
  can't remember first convention, but believes it was in Saltville, VA
  band stayed together 5 years (until 1976) - several members played in band, but Ken Powers (fiddle) & Dave Sturgill (banjo) were core
    Ken Powers - fiddle
    Dave Sturgill - banjo
  a couple of recordings are from vinyl releases, most are jam sessions or rehearsals
  once Rick Abrams (banjo) joined (1981?), Dave moved from banjo to mostly mandolin or fiddle
3:47 Chicken Pie
  recorded 1977 by Kyle Creed at New River Jam and released on New River Jam: One (Mountain Records 308, 1975?)
    original band - list from above
    Bruce Carwith - banjo, vocals
    Paul Tyke - vocals
    Ken Powers - fiddle
    Dave Sturgill - mandolin
6:29 Band History
  Original band broke up 1976 (Dave & wife taking trip west). Ken Powers took over original band, reorganized, and rennamed Grayson Highlands String Band
  Recorded 1976 at Chilhowie VA
7:21 The Eighth of January
----------------------------------------
8:43 Band History
  Skyland Strings has largely been Dave Sturgill plus "musicians around looking for somebody to play with", formed largely from jam sessions - won several ribbons
  remainder of tunes recorded at various times and places, may not necessarily be in order
----------------------------------------
9:44 Sourwood Mountain
  recorded 1974 at Virginia Highlands Community College
    Ken powers - fiddle
    Dave Sturgill - banjo
    John Sturgill - bass
    Wayne Henderson - guitar
    Caroll Henderson - guitar
12:56 Cumberland Gap
    Dave Sturgill - clawhammer banjo
    Ed Atwood - clawhammer banjo
    Wayne Henderson - guitar
----------------------------------------
15:02 Meeting Rick Abrams and The Wild Goose History
  met banjo player Rick Abrams ("a fiddle-footed Hebrew newspaperman") in 1981 while warming up on banjo at Galax Fiddlers Convention
  "we'd never met before, but I can tell you 4 hours later we were pretty well acquainted, and we've been the best of friends since then"
  When Dave was a kid, several old fiddlers played a song called The Wild Goose; Dave left for a while, and when he returned, no one played it -- the song had been forgotten
  in 1977, when Dave was on a trip out to Seattle, WA he met one of his mother's first cousins (a banjo picker) - he called in some musicians to pick with him
  the fiddler he called was from Grayson County, VA and played The Wild Goose - Dave recognized it instantly and recorded it
  Dave helped revive the tune, and when he heard Dave play it we knew he wanted to include it in an album ("The Wild Goose")
  Rick eventually recorded the album (Heritage Records HER 071, 1987) at Bobby Patterson's Galax studio
17:15 The Wild Goose
  recorded 1984 at Galax Fiddlers Convention
    Dave Sturgill - mandolin
    Rick Abrams - banjo
    Sam Holcomb - guitar
    Al Christians - guitar
    unknown - bass
  several members of Bill Cannaday's Orchard Grass sat in for Rick's recording studio, plus (insinuated) Dave Sturgill
    Tehava Conner - bass
    Ebo Clifton - guitar
----------------------------------------
20:38 ????????????
  recorded 1987 at Galax Fiddlers Convention
    Rick Abrams - banjo
    David Rainwater - fiddle
    Dave Sturgill - mandolin
    Bill Necessary - guitar
    Marty Shuman - autoharp
23:15 Raggedy Anne
    (same as above? insinuated)
    Chester Wilson - second fiddle
----------------------------------------
26:47 ?Cripple Creek?
  recorded 1984 by Bud Meineke at Galax Fiddlers Convention
    Rick Abrams - banjo
    Dave Sturgill - mandolin
    John Sturgill - bass
    Sam Holcomb - guitar
----------------------------------------
29:14 Sally Goodin
  recorded 1985 at Galax Fiddlers Convention
    most musicians unknown (8-10 total)
    Dave Sturgill - mandolin


----------------------------------------
SIDE B

31:32 Red Wing
  recorded 1986 by Bud Meineke at Galax VA jam sessions
    Rick Abrams - (unidentified - banjo?)
    Dave Sturgill - (unidentified - mandolin?)
    with Bill Cannaday's Orchard Grass
35:13 ?tentative - Way Down the Old Plank Road (Aunt Dinah Drunk)?
-----------------------------------
36:49 ?"Old Scottish Tune"?
  recorded 1987 at Galax VA jam sessions
    Rick Abrams - banjo
-----------------------------------
38:36 Introduction
  believed 1987 to be best assemblage of Skyland Strings group
  "next 3-4 tunes" came from that group - maybe more?
    Dave Rainwater - fiddle
    Rick Abrams - banjo
    Dave Sturgill - mandolin
    Marty Shuman - autoharp
    Bill Necessary - guitar
39:39 ???????
44:53 The Eighth of January
48:03 ???????
50:52 ???????
54:02 Down Yonder
56:55 ???????
59:09 The Little Cat Spit In The Big Cat's Eye (Grey Cat On A Tennessee Farm)


David Rainwater is from California
Bill Necessary is from Scott County, VA (mother was a Sturgill)
Marty Shuman is from Florida
Bud Meineke is from Chattanooga, TN
Bill Cannaday's Orchard Grass of Roanoke, VA
Dave Sturgill is from North Carolina

VIDEO LINK

Subject: RE: Help ID'ing Old Time Instrumental Songs
From: cnd
Date: 19 May 22 - 10:53 AM

Info on some of the musicians above:


Dave/David Rainwater - bio - YouTube

Rick Abrams - (1950-1997) journalist and clawhammer banjo player from Sacramento CA who later founded a band (The Piney Creek Weasels - certainly named for Dave Sturgill's home town of Piney Creek NC) - some info

Bill Necessary seems to have lived in Weber City, VA and (may) have been primarily a Western Swing guitarist - source, source - also seems to have a good amount of material on record at Mountain Empire CC

Martin Schuman (note spelling) - bio

Chester Wilson is a fiddle player from Virginia(?) who has played with several groups tangential to members listed above, but I can't find much more on him.

Elbert "Ebo" Clifton was a guitarist and bassist and member of Orchard Grass, The Clifton Old Time Band, and the Floyd County Boys.

Eva (not Tehava) Conner was a fiddle and bass fiddle player who played with the Clifton Old Time Band, but I haven't been able to find much more.

Ed Atwood was a clawhammer banjo player from Alleghany County, North Carolina. Not much else is available at the moment.

Carol Henderson is a member of the Henderson Family Bluegrass Band and lives in Virginia. Not much else I can find.

Wayne Henderson *could* be the famous VA-based luthier - bio - but I can't find any evidence he played with Carol.

The information given on Ken Powers above is correct as far as I've found. His band was based out of Whitetop, VA


currently no more info or confirmation of spelling on Bud Meineke, Sam Holcomb, Al Christians, Bruce Carwith, or Paul Tyke


This book has a chapter on Dave and mentions many of the above musicians too - A Hot-bed of Musicians: Traditional Music in the Upper New River Valley by Paula Hathaway Anderson-Green

Subject: RE: Help ID'ing Old Time Instrumental Songs
From: GUEST,Andy Alexis
Date: 20 May 22 - 11:55 AM

20:38 and 39:39 sounds like "Fortune".
35:13 also sounds like "Sail Away Ladies"
36:49 is "You Take the High Road and I'll Take the Low Road", aka Loch Lomond.
48:03: I can't exactly place the tune, but it sounds like one of the Gribble, Lusk and York pieces:
https://www.gribbleluskandyork.org/
50:52: Year of Jubilo
56:55 Fly Around My Blue Eyed Gal aka Western Country.

Subject: RE: Help ID'ing Old Time Instrumental Songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 May 22 - 03:46 PM

Yes it is Wayne Henderson the ace guitar picker and builder. Carol (Seese) Henderson was his wife at the time. They have a doughter Jayne who follows her father in building instruments. I know too that Carol built a fiddle or two. Wayne's brother Max played in the Grayson Highlands String Band.

Frank Weston did an early interview with Wayne in 1980 which was published in the UK magazine Old Time Music around 1982.

There is an audio track by Uncle Dave on You Tube playing "Breaky Mountain Fog Down" with a still shot. It's on the channel of 'Backup6Box'

The book by Paula H A Green is fine but a more comprehensive book on many many musicians of the area is "Strings of Life" by Kevin Donleavy
Pocahontas Press, Blacksburg, Va.

Subject: RE: Help ID'ing Old Time Instrumental Songs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 May 22 - 08:46 AM

On that first video, what is labeled "Old Plank Road" is "Sally Ann/Sail Away Ladies"

Subject: RE: Help ID'ing Old Time Instrumental Songs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 May 22 - 08:47 AM

On that first video, "Cripple Creek" is right.

Subject: RE: Help ID'ing Old Time Instrumental Songs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 May 22 - 08:52 AM

So many OT tunes run together with interchangeable names. "Bile them Cabbages
often turns up as the chorus to many. In folk music, there are few really original tunes.
Many are offshoots of others. The only distinction to be made is when the individual learns a tune one way and gives it a name that comes with it or makes up a new name.

Subject: RE: Help ID'ing Old Time Instrumental Songs
From: cnd
Date: 24 May 22 - 09:23 AM

Thank you both Hootenanny and Stringsinger for your help in determining the players and song names -- will definitely have to look into that book. The Breaky Mountain Fogdown is a fun one, too!

I also posted this to BanjoHangout and there was some discussion about the 48:03 tune as Apple Blossom