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BS: Can Viruses Talk?
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Subject: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: Mr Red Date: 05 Aug 22 - 02:16 PM New Scientist, November 13th 2013 - article entitled "Can Viruses Talk" About how a respected cyber security expert found his Apple Mac was changing configuration without him doing anything. Take it as read he reduced the configuration by disconnecting from the net, switched of all mains power, ran on batteries alone with 2 computers within "earshot". He noticed the effect at that stage, but not when the microphone(s) was disabled. Speculation is that data could be transferred even ultrasonically, at a low bit rate, but computers are left on for long periods, and they beep at you. He did scan the Macs for viruses and found none. And Apples don't get viruses do they? Do they? So much so you can install a "Defender" on Apple products - Defender/AVI - what's in a name? So - a subtle loophole or subtle virus? Nearly ten years ago. Apple have probably plugged that gap, without telling anyone. There are precedents for that happening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 05 Aug 22 - 05:14 PM Beware: you're treading on territory I used to patrol for a living. MacOS isn't, and never was, immune from viruses or other malware, any more than Linux was. It's just that Microsoft's offerings were initially vastly easier to break into, so that's where those breaking into systems purely for profit focussed their attention to start with, and an unfortunate and misleading legend was born. Once Microsoft upped their game, said vermin looked around for the next-to-lowest-hanging fruit; and Apple kit does tend to be used by people with money, which makes them attractive targets .... As an illustrative horror story: Quite a few years ago now, I took great delight in pinning up an article outside my office, warning people that a botnet had been discovered which ran exclusively on Apple Macs. Many (tens of?) thousands of Macs were found to have been recruited into it, of which some two or three hundred were inside Apple's HQ. So no, Apple kit does get viruses and other malware: I compute, therefore I am vulnerable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: DaveRo Date: 05 Aug 22 - 05:49 PM This sort of exploit is called "air-gapped" - i.e. there's no electrical (or electro-magnetic) connection between the attacker and the victim computer. They're more often reported than proved to exist. What is this one? The article seems to be paywalled. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: Donuel Date: 05 Aug 22 - 07:25 PM airgaps are obviously defeated by a thumb drive |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: DaveRo Date: 06 Aug 22 - 02:33 AM Indeed, that often turns out to be the way supposedly secure systems were breached. Stuxnet was introduced into Iran's nuclear plant by leaving a USB memory stick in a washroom. Which is why secure systems should not have USB sockets. Or CD drives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 06 Aug 22 - 08:33 AM > Which is why secure systems should not have USB sockets. Or CD drives. I just the other week discovered that the DVD drive on my desktop machine won't play audio CDs: it grinds awhile, then spins down. When I looked inside, there's no audio cable, and nowhere obvious to connect one. Presumably leaving out the necessary internal software (coding, zoning etc) saves a bit of money, possibly on licence fees. That'd be a bugger for people who wish to relieve the monotony in clean rooms (or secure zones) by bringing in their favourite greatest-hits CDs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 06 Aug 22 - 08:58 AM Oh, and back at the subject line, bridging an airgap by sound has been demonstrated to be viable enough to leak secrets (slowly) from an airgapped machine and/or send commands to it. And if it's possible, then someone will have done it in anger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: Jon Freeman Date: 06 Aug 22 - 09:27 AM I think it's been a long while since optical dicks needed an audio connection for sound. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 06 Aug 22 - 10:53 AM (*ahem*) Would you care to rephrase that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: Mr Red Date: 08 Aug 22 - 07:37 AM When I was at Uni, the lecturer told of a trick played on him as the manager of the electronics lab. Music coming from a box with not much in it other than a speaker and a circuit board that obviously wasn't a radio. Turned out they had run a relatively high frequency carrier over the 50Hz on the lightbulb and modulated that much as "am" radio is. That would have been in the 60s. Airgaps are older than you think. Think semaphore telegraph! Come to think of it, much older, Armada beacons. DaveRo - The Guy's name is Dragos Ruiu, from Vancouver BC. Found this from Hacker News Malware that transfers stolen data using Inaudible Audio signals from 2013 seems - badBIOS is the buzz word. And a BIOS update was a factor. Another vulnerability of Apple products is the myth itself. Mac evangelists believe it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 08 Aug 22 - 09:36 AM > Airgaps are older than you think. Think semaphore telegraph! Methinks there's a potential misunderstanding here: that's the comms method, not the airgap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 08 Aug 22 - 09:53 AM But I agree with you about the Apple myth being a vulnerability: it targets the weakest link (the wetware), as the continued success of phishing attacks demonstrates. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: Donuel Date: 08 Aug 22 - 10:21 AM Also a bit different were the Soviet spy bugs that we could not detect for a decade because they had no battery etc. The Russians powered them remotely to make the bugs broadcast with energy from something like microwave.types of intel People should know every digital nation has stuxnet now. Isreal let the cat out of the bag. The NSA and CIA have already flagged this thread by key words but will go unseen by human eyes. :^/ As for methods and means np3id 3podn90 fvm=s, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: Donuel Date: 09 Aug 22 - 06:01 AM intel overview interview 33 intel groups |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: DaveRo Date: 09 Aug 22 - 12:28 PM Mr Red wrote: Malware that transfers stolen data using Inaudible Audio signals from 2013That relied on the target computer being compromised - infected by malware. You need physical access, social engineering - or a memory stick to do that. Or a supply-chain compromise - increasingly popular - where a piece of software is updated that has been infected. Recently, malicious code has been inserted into widely used open-source modules. Imagine: a well-funded state actor starts an open source project to develop a development framework, which is so good it's widely adopted. Some years later it's found to include designed-in malware for spying. I remember there was a case where data was exfiltrated from a non- compromised systen by tuning in to the electromagnetic radiation emitted by CRT VDUs. Someone in a van outside an office could reproduce the images on a screen being viewed inside. But they couldn't control what was being viewed. But I don't recall a case where malware was installed onto a computer over an air-gap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 10 Aug 22 - 09:40 AM > a well-funded state actor starts an open source project to develop > a development framework Malfeasance in FLOSS is more likely to be spotted; and has been, at least twice, in the Linux kernel sources. Try doing that with (eg) MS-Windows. > data was exfiltrated from a non-compromised systen by tuning in to > the electromagnetic radiation emitted by CRT VDUs I remember that [snip: too much detail to fit in this margin]. That led to the TEMPEST measures, and quite possibly hastened the introduction of flat-screen monitors. > I don't recall a case where malware was installed onto a computer > over an air-gap. Agreed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 10 Aug 22 - 10:08 AM .... But a small one installed some other how could call home, open the door, and let in the |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: DaveRo Date: 11 Aug 22 - 03:14 AM MaJoC the Filk wrote: Malfeasance in FLOSS is more likely to be spotted...I wonder if it would be spotted if it were contributed by the project's core contributors? To take the analogy of the Linux Kernel, if Linus and his top team added suspicious code, would anyone notice? Fortunately, security of OSS code is belatedly receiving some attention - and funding. But there are still gaps. This just today: Boffins rate npm and PyPI package security and it's not good Just yesterday I wondered where a Python thing I was about to install came from and who maintained it. But I installed it anyway. After all, it was mentioned on Stack Exchange, so it must be OK! But a small one installed some other how could call homeYes. But challenging on an air-gapped machine! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 11 Aug 22 - 06:31 AM > To take the analogy of the Linux Kernel, if Linus and his top team > added suspicious code, would anyone notice? Or if someone(s) on the core team of GCC did Something Naughty. Eventually, one has to trust *someone*, even if it's the Three-Letter Agencies trusting Ken Thompson's statement that he didn't let *that* binary version of CC leave Bell Labs. Personally, I'd rather trust Linus and Co than the anonymous coders behind commercial software --- even if I don't valet the Linux sources myself, at least in principle I could. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: Mr Red Date: 14 Aug 22 - 06:08 AM I think in essence the way things work, compared to the way they used to, is a giveaway. FireFox now loads amazingly slowly if my broadband is connected (lights flashing), and almost instantaneously if not. Now convince me the the new owner is not trawling for data, when I don't even have his (or anyone's) magic gizmos. Like password pockets. The computer shop I got the new PC from (not this one) said he installed a better browser written by the original FireFox boffin (?) because "he didn't like the direction the new owner was moving FF" - I paraphrase (lightly). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: DaveRo Date: 14 Aug 22 - 07:23 AM Mr Red wrote: FireFox now loads amazingly slowly if my broadband is connected ...convince me the the new owner is not trawling for data...What 'new owner'? Firefox does download data about how you browse - called 'telemetry'. You can opt out: Telemetry collection and deletion It also downloads lists of websites that have been reported to contain malware and updates to addons, blacklists, and other things. So it will take longer to load when online, but not much longer IME. Certainly not 'amazingly' so. ...a better browser written by the original FireFox boffinPerhaps it was Brave. That was created by Brendan Eich, who co-founded Mozilla which took the Netscape browser and turned it into the opensource browser which is now called Firefox. Brendan is also famous for inventing Javascript - over a weekend IIRC. Brave should run Mudcat Browser Tools ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: Mr Red Date: 15 Aug 22 - 03:19 AM "Brave" sounds about what the shop was saying. I haven't switched on the new laptop, too many websites and maps to maintain on a PC that does everything I need except Bluetooth. Maybe tomorrow. The guy who "invented" JavaScript gets my vote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: Mr Red Date: 15 Aug 22 - 03:46 AM I have read bit more about "Brave". And this popped out at me. iOS - mind you! Brave Firewall + VPN is a browser based system wide firewall and VPN for iOS AND a de-AMP feature that bypasses Google's AMP system, directing the user straight to the original website instead now I wonder, does it yet do the same for URLs posted on Fakebook ?? I often copy & paste their visible text to "bypass" and have even had to change the JavaScript on some of my webpages to obviate the corruption FB causes (hash text mostly) The Wiki page does not mention debugging features. I would use FireFox anyway, familiarity is all when you just want things "done". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: DaveRo Date: 15 Aug 22 - 04:34 AM AMP = Accelerated Mobile Pages As to Brendan Eich, his technical ability, or the qualities if the Brave Browser are not in doubt. He left Mozilla (was pushed out in fact) because of his politics, not because he 'didn't like the direction it was going'. And the ownership of Mozilla (the Mozilla Foundation) hasn't changed. The man in your computer shop is misinformed. |
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Subject: RE: FITNESS & Declutter 2022 - Pandemic redux From: Donuel Date: 18 Aug 22 - 10:28 AM We let 20 million monkey pox vaccines expire. What ever the reason someone did not do the right thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 19 Aug 22 - 05:55 AM Meanwhile, back at the thread: Janet Jackson music video declared a cybersecurity exploit Playing the Rythm Nation video on a machine could crash it; and playing it on one machine can cause another nearby machine to crash:
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: Mr Red Date: 19 Aug 22 - 08:20 AM natural resonant frequencies for the model of 5400 RPM laptop hard drives What goes around................. I'll get my coat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 19 Aug 22 - 09:47 AM That's a circular argument, Mr Red. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: robomatic Date: 19 Aug 22 - 12:19 PM Great story filkster! Thanks! I'm ready to buy my next (and possibly last) laptop, and I'm wondering if new processors had come out that are immune to that pair of hardware flaws that occurred about five years ago and necessitated software fixes that slowed down processing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Can Viruses Talk? From: Mr Red Date: 22 Aug 22 - 04:18 AM That's a circular argument, Mr Red. Yea my head is spinning |
