BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?

Subject: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Aug 22 - 03:09 PM

This is kind of a dumb question/subject. I got to wondering about the wording of the USA pledge and did some checking on its history. The first version was written in the late 1890s with a couple of tweaks since then.

My first question: Why pledge allegiance to the flag? Why not go directly to the nation, i.e. "I pledge allegiance to... etc? I realize that it's the symbol of the nation but it seems unnecessary to me.

Second question: Do other nations have the same tradition? Do you too place your hand over your heart and recite your vows?

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Aug 22 - 03:34 PM

I think that if anyone did that in the UK they'd be called a Fascist.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 22 - 03:46 PM

I'd rather hack off the family jewels with a rusty machete than swear allegiance to someone, something, or some bloody flag. Loyalty has to be earned in my book. You don't earn someone's loyalty by dint of your authority or superior position in society or because you happen to have a flag. If I met Prince Charles tomorrow, I wouldn't be rude to him. I'd say, "Oi, mate, Howya doing, old chap?"

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 22 - 03:50 PM

"I'll kneel before Zod if it'll shave livesh..." :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 22 - 03:51 PM

Perhaps there was a perceived alliegence to and the flying of the rebel confederate flag. Teaching the kids that the stars and stripes flag was the true flag of the United States was seen as necessary 15 years after the civil war. https://georgiastatesignal.com/why-were-we-made-to-say-the-pledge-of-allegiance/

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 22 - 05:27 PM

There obviously was a coup for religion to be combined with government despite a separation of church and State.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: JennieG
Date: 30 Aug 22 - 10:16 PM

Not in Oz - no. I have no memories of that being done when I was a child, either.

Good question, Ebbie!

A flag can be a very potent symbol....flag burning is looked upon as an act of desecration in some countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Aug 22 - 02:01 AM

JennieG, every once in awhile a random politician will remind citizens that the flag- any flag- is just a bit of cloth with little inherent value. To my mind that is the right approach.

On the other hand, I believe that it is illegal, on the books, to use the flag for any purpose other than patriotic. It seems ironic to me that the very people who bray the loudest on the sanctity of the flag tend to be the ones who cut it up and use it for everything from umbrellas to shorts and bikinis.

A side note: Does any five year old child know the word 'allegiance'? Or even 'pledge'? I don't remember it being explained to the class. As an Amish kid I was instructed by my parents to stand for the pledge but to not recite it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Senoufou
Date: 31 Aug 22 - 02:31 AM

I think rampant patriotism can be rather a dangerous thing.
Our Norfolk heroine Edith Cavell said, just before she was executed by the Germans, "Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone."
However, if one is going to have a flag, a bit of knowledge doesn't come amiss. (The new neighbour on the corner here hoisted the Union Flag upside down on her new flagpole. I just had to go over and point this out, as it's a 'distress signal'!)
If one 'pledges allegiance' to those in charge of a nation, it means one is obliged to continue supporting them never mind what they get up to. I prefer to retain my independence and my judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: JennieG
Date: 31 Aug 22 - 02:45 AM

Different countries have different rules, it seems.....Flag desecration

Every January in Oz we can buy, if we wish, clothing, beer coozies/stubby holders, picnic ware (plates, cups, etc), tablecloths, shirts, pants, swimming costumes - you name it. Australia Day is 26th January and it seems that commercial interests have deemed that we should all bedeck ourselves out in flag regalia. Nothing, however, is said about any pledges.

Flag waving and wearing is seen at a lot of sporting matches, but the allegiances in those cases seem to me to be to the sports people, not the country whose flag it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 31 Aug 22 - 03:14 AM

> I think that if anyone did that in the UK they'd be called a Fascist.

Then why do certain politicians over here insist on being beflagged whenever they're on the telly? it's embarrassing. By their flags shall ye know them.

[hides eyes] Just tell me: how many flags?
Five.
Turn it off; it'll not be worth listening to.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 22 - 04:29 AM

Flags are a part of the Establishment’s control-system, get people flag-shagging and they’re already under your thumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: leeneia
Date: 01 Sep 22 - 12:12 PM

You're right, Ebbie. Allegiance to a flag doesn't make any sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 22 - 12:21 PM

Well, having a flag as a powerful symbol of a nation or other entity, is an exercise in abstract thinking. The power of a symbol lies in how clearly people understand that symbol. Part of that is ability in abstract thinking, but another part is in the storytelling and experiences that give the symbol its meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 22 - 12:22 PM

Flags and warfare are intrinsically linked from ancient times to modern.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 22 - 01:15 PM

"Flags and warfare are intrinsically linked from ancient times to modern"???

So are nations and warfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 22 - 01:27 PM

And nations and flags. Symbols. "and to the republic for which it stands... The flag is only a symbol. The pledge is to the nation, not *primarily* the symbol of the nation. How I see it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 01 Sep 22 - 02:23 PM

I am with Ebbie. I also stood but did not pledge; my Quaker heritage, not adopted by all Quakers.

I believe it used to NOT be done to use the US flag motif in any way other than the flag and greatly frowned upon, or worse, to disrespect it in any way. Just a bloomin' piece of fabric, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 01 Sep 22 - 03:21 PM

There are rules about disposing of the USA flag when worn out that say that you have to burn it. That raises a lot of questions in my mind.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Sep 22 - 07:39 PM

I think the point of pledging allegiance to our national flag is to point out what we are NOT pledging allegiance to:

* Not a person
* Not a party
* Not a religion

Also, remember the words continue: "...and to the REPUBLIC, for which it stands, ONE NATION, [under God*], INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

*the 'under God' part was added to the original pledge, guess which political party was responsible for that little add-in.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 22 - 08:07 PM

Dorothy, I believe you're right about using the flag. I remember that in the 70s, clothing with flags was fairly popular. I also knew (or thought I knew) it was wrong to do that. I can't say why I had that impression, though. I had a pair of jeans which had back pocket flag flaps that I felt guilty about.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 22 - 08:35 PM

As I take little interest in flags and all that stuff, I can't be sure but I think we Brits are slightly less sensitive (except when fascist parties pretending to be patriotic use it, or when Boris Johnson sits in the TV studio with a great big one behind him). You can get Union Jack underpants and t-shirts or get the top of your mini painted with it. We dangle the English flag out of our car side windows during the World Cup, but you'll seldom see anyone flying a flag in their garden or in their house window. Just outside Wadebridge on the A39 a farmer has painted his big wooden gate with a somewhat stretchy Union Jack. We denizens of Cornwall have our own flag and I have a sticker with it on stuck to my car. I have a toilet roll with a pic of Donald Trump on every sheet, but I don't think we've gone as far as that with our flag as yet. Not that I know of anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 12:50 AM

I will stand but I don't speak it, and years ago before I took that stance I would never say the "under god" part (added in 1954). I never join in prayer at public meetings, I don't even pretend to look down, I usually look around to see who else isn't praying (I'm rarely alone in that). These activities are aimed at particular gods who aren't my gods (as an atheist) and I have no interest in continuing that tradition. It's a reminder to those assembled of who might be in power (with their human agents leading the prayer being the actual big fish who hope to stay in power.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 04:09 AM

My sentiments exactly (though your first sentence doesn't apply this end). I wouldn't stand if it did, I don't think.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 04:21 AM

If the whole room stands up for "God save the Queen", do you remain seated, Steve?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 05:11 AM

It doesn't often happen these days, but the answer is that I remain seated.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 05:49 AM

I'm obviously more of a coward than you. I stand in polite silence.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 06:23 AM

I can remember* the English tradition of playing the National Anthem after the last film in cinemas, and the equal tradition of a rush for the doors while the closing credits played on said film.

* Remember as in knowing of it, but never having observed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 06:34 AM

”I can remember* the English tradition of playing the National Anthem after the last film in cinemas, and the equal tradition of a rush for the doors while the closing credits played on said film.

* Remember as in knowing of it, but never having observed it.”

Oh, it’s true alright - I’ve been a member of that rush (along with my girlfriend-du-jour) on many occasions!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 07:07 AM

Don't you remember the good old days in the cinema, Doug, when at the very end they played God Save the Queen, everybody knew what was coming and tried to dash out to avoid the standing for it, but you ended up having to stand anyway (or sit back down, which is what I always did) because some royalist tw*ts did the standing bit and blocked both ends of the row?

Happy days! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 07:09 AM

Sorry, I half-composed that post, came back to it an hour later and got usurped twice there!

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 07:29 AM

The last time I was in a theatre, a few months ago, we were asked to stand before the show began for the Ukrainian national anthem. I stood with everybody else but more because I am a conformist rather than wanting to show my personal solidarity with the people of Ukraine. If I were an American, I would probably follow Stilly's lead as regards to the pledge.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 09:41 AM

Apologies for the butting-in, Steve. Just glad to have the tale confirmed .... as well as your rider about royalist lane-blockers, which is new to me.

Now to go back to being amused at the local flagpole fetishists who are sending distress signals because their houses are sinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 10:40 AM

Do the British pledge allegiance to their flag? I may have mistakenly thought that was a USA thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 11:39 AM

No, we don't.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 22 - 11:42 AM

AFAIK, we don’t pledge allegiance to anything, even the words of our dreadful national anthem have SFA to do with our Union of nations and everything to do with Betty Windsor.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 03 Sep 22 - 11:45 AM

> AFAIK, we don’t pledge allegiance to anything

I distinctly remember "to do my duty to God and the Queen" being chanted by me as a cub scout, but details blur at this distance.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 22 - 12:06 PM

Yes, I remember doing that in the Boy Scouts. But it's not the kind of general, universally-parotted 'pleadge' like the US thing that schoolkids all over the US chant every morning before beginning classes, it's a very specific instance limited to the comparatively small number of cubs/scouts.

Subject: RE: BS: Why Pledge Allegiance to a FLAG?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Sep 22 - 12:08 PM

...and, AFAICR, we never, EVER, did that daft 'hand on heart' thing. It's just not a 'British' thing, is it?