 sj |
||
|
||
Sea Shanty Jargon
|
|
|
Subject: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Doctor John Date: 17 Jan 00 - 02:20 PM I know you seafarers out there can answer. I guess "eight bells" is the end of a four hour "watch" or shift. Do one, two ... etc bells mean anything? Also what were (or are) the duties of the first, second, third mates and the bo'son on a ship? Songs snd shanties from Navy and merchant ships suggest the crew were very harshly treated but whaling songs complain about the nature of the job, weather etc; did the crew get a better deal on these voyages, such as a share in the profits? Probably simple questions but I don't rightly know the answer. Dr John |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Micca Date: 17 Jan 00 - 02:54 PM Yeah Doc( traditional nickname for the Cook) you got most of the watch part right when I was at sea(Merchant Navy 60s) the watchs were 12-4, 4-8, 8-12. ships bell was struck each half hour, 8 bells was the watch change, so on the 12 to 4 1 bell was 12.30 2 bells one o clock etc. the watch below( the next watch on) were roused sat 7 bells to be ready to take over at 8 bells. The traditional tea mug on British ships holds a British pint (20 fluid ounces)is called a 7 beller because the person who woke the watch always brought you a freshly made one full of tea when he woke you .Traditionally also you relieved early so the new wheelman struck the 8 bells (always rung in pairs ding ding, pause, ding ding, pause and the single last for odd numbers)The Mates are Officers usually qualified to the rank above the one they hold i.e a First mate ( always known as The Mate and addressed as Mr Mate)would have a Captains qualification, They are the Officers of the watch and keep watchs with at least 3 seamen so the 1st mate takes the 12-4 the 2nd takes the 4-8 and the 3rd takes the 8 to 12, the skipper comes on the bridge when he thinks fit but often takes watch with the 3rd mate. The Bosun is usually the leading non-Officer deckhandm and organises "day work" for deck crew mwmbers who are not watch keeping ie working 9-5 on ship maintenance etc. You guessed right about whalers too they were almost always on a shares basis and even the lowest member of tghe crew might be on a 250 of the profits would come ashore with a sizable sum for 5 months work. If you want more detail contact me through the private messages, I went to South Georgia on atanker servicing the last European whaleing expedition in 1967. |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: The Shambles Date: 17 Jan 00 - 03:05 PM At a festival a got caught up with a group of Shanty singers. They made me very dizzy in the pub (with a little help from the beer),for they seemed to have some songs that it seemed necessary for them all to stand up and sing and others that is was OK to sing sitting down. they all seemed to know which was which. Is there any rational explanation for this strange behavior? |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Date: 17 Jan 00 - 03:06 PM On Navy ships the work was divided into seven watches or shifts:
First Watch: 8PM to Midnight Except for the dogwatches, the watches last for eight bells, with one bell on the half-hour after the beginning of the watch and a bell added each half hour until eight bells, which ends the outgoing watch and begins the next. The bells are rung in groups of two, so five bells of the first watch (10:30 PM) would be rung ding-ding, ding-ding, ding. The first dogwatch ends at four bells, The second dogwatch then has its half-hours markes as one bell (6:30 PM), two bells (7 PM), three bells (7:30 PM) and eight bells (8 PM). Ordinarily you are "one on and two off", that is, you are on duty for one watch then off duty for two. The point of the dogwatches is to create an odd number of watches so that everyone's duty hours will rotate. That is how I understand it operates on Navy ships. Merchantmen may have different systems. In Dana's Two Years Before the Mast the crew is divided into two watches, Starb'rd and Larb'rd. I don't know how it is on modern merchantmen, but I'm sure that the sailors need a union to protect them, since I suspect that the same qualities that make a man an effective captain, just slightly out of alignment, can make him a slavedriver. If the songs are accurate, whaling was hard work even by nautical standards, and a berth on a slaver was very dangerous, due to the risk of disease:
Beware and take care How the pay was managed I'm not sure. I once read a book which suggested that the shipowners rigged things very much in their favor, charging the sailors high prices from the ship's stores for clothing and such (a seagoing "company store"), so that a sailor might leave a ship in debt. I haven't verified the book's information, but I stronly suspect that this was many sailors' experience. T.
|
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Okiemockbird Date: 17 Jan 00 - 03:40 PM The Shambles, do you remember which songs they stood for and which they sat for ? Shanties strictly so-called are work songs (capstan shanties, foremast shanties, etc.) which would only be sung during work. Off-duty sailors, or sailors sitting in pubs between voyages, sang show tunes or any old song. Maybe the difference you observed was between shanties and pub-songs ? T. |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Okiemockbird Date: 17 Jan 00 - 04:04 PM Oops. I meant fore-sheet shanties, not foremast shanties. Sorry. T. |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: The Shambles Date: 17 Jan 00 - 04:05 PM It was some time ago and as I said there were quantities of beer involved. You may well be right but they did all sound pretty Shantyish to me. |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Margo Date: 17 Jan 00 - 04:35 PM Micca, maybe you can help me with an expression I've seen in shanteys and have never understood the meaning... in Leave Her Johnny one line says "she shipped it green and none went by". Most of the lines were complaining about conditions aboard, so I assume "shipping it green" is unpleasant or undesireable. Then in a whaling song, one line says "Our boat she ships it green, and our blubber hooks are keen, as we sail before the wintery wind. Got a clue? Margo |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 17 Jan 00 - 04:53 PM Micca is chattin so I will attempt to answer you. Shipping Green coloured seas is solid water that doesnt break into spray. it is very destructive and usually destroys things on deck if they dont pass by the ship founders and sinks Yours Aye Dave |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: kendall Date: 17 Jan 00 - 05:06 PM she shipped that green both night and day.. meant that she was taking green water over the bows, not just spray. The whalemen were paid on the "lay" principal. it was a way of dividing up the profits. The owners would be paid on the first lay, right down to the lowest seaman who might be on the 250th lay. Sailors in those days were less than PhD's of course and many came aboard without the proper gear, such as foul weather gear needed to round the horn, so, they would draw what they needed from the ships store, or, "slop chest". Naturally they were overcharged, and could, indeed end up owing money for their gear. For those who care, the expression to "try out" came from the process of heating whale blubber in giant "try pots" until the oil was extracted. Kinda like frying bacon. |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Micca Date: 17 Jan 00 - 08:11 PM Good man Dave "They shipped in Green and None went by" means they probably were in bad weather all the way.It has to be experienced to be believed. A wall of bottle greeen water (at about 5 degrees C) moving across the deck picks you up and slams you against the handrail of the flying bridge and fills your oilskins up from top to bottom so that when you get inside the water runs out for about 5 minutes, and if you are going on watch you spend the next hour as wheel man in the same wet gear and your hour on lookout in the same state and its only when your standby you MIGHT get a chance of a change of clothes but you have to run the same gauntlet back to the bridge again anyway. I once spent 3 weeks wet except when I was in my bunk on watch below, and that was none too dry!! and that was on relatively big ships these trawlers bob aout like corks. The only time I've ever seen a film that came close to showing what it is really like is the German film/Tv series Das Boot( the Boat) about a submarine. sorry to ramble but you did ask. |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Barry Finn Date: 17 Jan 00 - 10:17 PM The better deal of a whaling trip was you could be out to sea for years & owing Kendall's slop chest at the end. In Melville's " Moby Dick" (modeled after the true voyage of the New England whaler the Essex) there's a passage about the dangers of cutting in & retrieving oils from inside the whale's head. Their job was beyond the dangers of the regular seaman. In the reports to the Fish & Fisheries the remarks beside the documented voyage reads like 1001 ways to die aboard ship. The loss of captains, mates & common sailors happened almost as an assured occurance. The frequent mutinies speak for the conditions. One of the interesting remarks was that a female in man's clothes was dicovered during her second voyage. Barry |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Margo Date: 18 Jan 00 - 02:24 AM Oh Micca, I don't consider it rambling. We've just had a meal of a hearty stew with bread and butter and we're warm inside; We've taken a spot by the hearth next to a roaring fire and you're telling me tales of your voyages. I'm drinking it in with fascination! Any favorite stories of yours you care to tell? I'm all ears! Margo |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 18 Jan 00 - 07:04 AM As a codicil to Micca's post; the marine industry is still the most dangerous occupation, according to statistics. RCC Halifax responds to an average caseload of 2500 - 2900 Search and Rescue calls a year. Yours, Aye. Dave |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: micca Date: 18 Jan 00 - 07:21 AM And not to mention the unmentionable in WWII the Merchant Navy had the highest percentage casualties of any of the Service. 1 in 3 were lost .I sailed with a guy in 1964 who had been torpeadoed in the North Atlantic and was one of 4 survivors of his ship, the ship that picked them up was torpeadoed the following night and he was one of 3 from that!!!!. He reckoned he was going to die of old age!!!! |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Tony Burns Date: 18 Jan 00 - 11:15 AM I was happy to see this thread. I was listening to shanties last night and was going to start my own on jargon. In a few of the shanties I listened to there is a single voice that shouts what sounds like "Timmy!" just before the first response line. What is the word and or meaning of this exclamation? My best guess is it is a shortening of "to me" but what does it mean? |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 18 Jan 00 - 11:27 AM Without the words of the shanty it would be hard to guess but here I go in for a penny in for a pound .. A timenoguy was a line used to keep the the fore tacks and sheets (rigging ropes) clear of the anchor stocks when tacking ship. I realise that you would not understand a lot of this terminology but I find myself at a loss to explain it simply for you. I think it may be a call to alert for the next pull; TO-ME- way hey (tu-me) very quickly spoken sounds phonetically like timmy...I hope this helps. Yours, Aye. Dave |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Tony Burns Date: 18 Jan 00 - 11:34 AM The alert for the next pull sounds good to me. I'll see if it fits the next time I'm listening to that CD. |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Jacob Bloom Date: 18 Jan 00 - 02:02 PM Even without getting anything from the slop chest, your share of the profits of a whaling voyage could be little or nothing, because there was no guarantee that the voyage would make a profit. If the ship came back full of oil in five months, well and good, but if it had trouble finding whales, and was out for two years, and it had to buy supplies along the way, then it wouldn't do as well. (Which sea song is it that ends with "You've slaved away two years of your life, and you've earned about one pound one"?) As to current conditions for sailors: I served on a jury for a case in which a merchant sailor was suing his employer. It was the kind of case that I would have expected to be handled as a Workmens Compensation claim instead of coming to court: the sailor's feet had been injured in an accident, he had been able to return to work, but he was trying to recover the cost of his physical therapy. Since this did come to court, I take it that U.S. merchant seamen are not covered by Workmen's Compensation. |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Tony Burns Date: 18 Jan 00 - 02:54 PM Blow The Man Down is an example of a shanty using the call "Timmy/T' me" to preceed the first response in each verse. My reference is "Songs Of The Sea - A Collection of Sea Shanties" performed by Johnny Collins with Dave Webber and Pete Walkinson. It's on the Emporio label. |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Margo Date: 18 Jan 00 - 02:59 PM That's funny, I always assumed it was "to me". I don't think I ever figured it meant anything. Shepherds have a command for their working dogs "Way to me". Wonder if it's related in any way? Margo |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 18 Jan 00 - 03:42 PM Jacob, The "Employment of Young Persons Act" in the UK never applied to Sea Going Officer Cadets (called apprentices) until sometime in the 1970's We were used as cheap labour; often working in excess of 12 hours a day. (and expected to work harder and better than the seamen) I am sure Micca would be able to spin a few yarns with you about that. Today a Cuban sailor makes about $14.00 a month.Yours, Aye. Dave |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Micca Date: 18 Jan 00 - 04:19 PM Ive always took that to be to me and it was the sharp intake of breath before the "pull stroke" cf "Paddy Doyle" " To me way hey a hey Ha (breath in) start pulll (take up the slack on the bitts) We'll pay Pady Doyle for his boots Breath again relax move hands up rope for next pull try it for real especially something heavy, you see that anyone who heaves on EVERY line of a shanty or chorus would be Knackered in no time flat. **BG*** It was a trap for the unwary,they would be panting by verse two, as I've said elswhere we did a lot by "Norwegian Steam" on that ship.but you should have seen us shifting big oil drums to "Whup Jamboree" Bert knew The real version "....come and get your oats my son" |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 18 Jan 00 - 08:50 PM Depends on what yer heaving on Line for light work, verse for heavy; thats why I only sail things with twin engines or more **B F'G** little bit of Norwegian Steam hurt ye? more like too much Portugese hand pump before (;}) Get up lash up and stow yer lazy bleeders, ye slept last week....Yours, Aye. Dave Mudcatter aboard lads And now me lads we're off Holyhead no more salt beef or weevily bread one man in the chains for to heave the lead JenEllen get your oat cakes done Whip Jamboree whip jamboree Oh ye pig tailed sailor hanging down below Whip jamboree whip jamboree JenEllen get your oat cakes done |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Petr Date: 18 Jan 00 - 09:11 PM Ive always wondered why there are so many references to Santy, (which I imagine is the Mexican general Santa Ana) in shanties & sea songs. Was this just a name that was in the news during the heyday of the clipper ships etc. Cheers. Petr |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Okiemockbird Date: 18 Jan 00 - 09:53 PM "Santiano" is Santa Ana. I heard from someone whow heard from a linguist that it is only fairly recently that English speakers in some regions became able to pronounce a final "a". In many dialects of the 19th century "California" was "Californy", "Sarah" was "Saro", and so "Santa Ana" became "Santiano." John Sampson, in The Seven Seas Shanty Book, London, 1927, classifies this as a capstan shanty. Concerning its history he wrote: "The origin of this Shanty is, of course, the Mexican war, and the original song was written to commemorate the victory of General Taylor of the U.S. Army over Santa Anna...but the sympathies of the sailor who first used it as a Shanty were apparently with Santa Anna, so he was made the hero, and the historical positions duly reversed." I don't know if Sampson has any real evidence of the original version of this Shanty. But merchant crews were sometimes made up of men (usually waep-men, but one suspects occasionally a wif-man would sail) from many different countries. It's tempting, though entirely conjectural, to imagine a British (or Barbadian, Belizian, Bermudan, whatever) shantyman singing a pro-Mexican version as a way of teasing the Americans in the crew.
|
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Micca Date: 19 Jan 00 - 07:03 AM Dave sang the BBN creeping up behind for the pig tail line, he said he learned it from a bloke who sailed with Alan Villiers on Baltic square riggers in the 20s and 30s!!! It was good for capstan and short haul where you didnt have much purchase |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Marc Date: 19 Jan 00 - 07:53 AM Micca, great discription of useing a chanty. I find it interesting that your hauling on a line to Paddy Doyle though. I've Pretty much only used that as a Bunting chanty. Marc |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Margo Date: 19 Jan 00 - 08:34 AM Speaking of Saro: There's a song I've heard, not sure of the title, but the refrain repeats "Rock about my Saro Jane". Can't seem to find it in shantey books. Anyone have the lyrics? Margo |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: GUEST,ShippsCo Singer Date: 19 Jan 00 - 03:46 PM re: the standing up and sitting down part. In Wheaton, we stand up when we remember to, and sit down when we forget. Sound carries better when up. (Where was that beer?) |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Micca Date: 19 Jan 00 - 05:29 PM Yeah i take your point about Paddy Doyle I used it simply as a illustration of the point at which you pull and rest. but our shanty man tailored it for one particular purpose which I could only explain with a ship model, 4 sailors, and a forty gallon drum and a block and tackle***BG***Micca. |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: Marc Date: 19 Jan 00 - 07:43 PM Point well taken. I didn't meen to sound critical. I still think it was a good discription. marc |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: GUEST,Barry Finn Date: 19 Jan 00 - 08:57 PM Hi Margo, search the DT for Saro Jane. Seems Uncle Dave did a number of songs that have references to the sea but then again the mountains were full of songs that sailed in & were left high & dry with the passage of time. I've never heard of Ssaro Jane being used as a sea song though but there is a great shanty version of Little Liza Jane. Barry |
|
Subject: RE: Sea Shanty Jargon From: GUEST,Okeimockbird Date: 19 Jan 00 - 09:09 PM The Sarah Jane is, of course, the ship's name. I have heard the song, but I don't have any copy of the words. T. |
| Share Thread: |