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Origins: Faithless Sally Brown

DigiTrad:
SALLY
SALLY BROWN
SALLY BROWN 2


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Sally Brown -- unexpurgated (27)
Lyr Add: 'Sally Brown' (27)
Lyr Req: Sally Brown (as sung by Andy Irvine) (6)
Lyr Req: Sally Brown (from Stanley Slade) (12)


GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Sep 22 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Sep 22 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 18 Sep 22 - 06:41 PM
Joe Offer 18 Sep 22 - 10:29 PM
Mrrzy 18 Sep 22 - 10:31 PM
Reinhard 19 Sep 22 - 01:34 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 Sep 22 - 04:50 AM
Reinhard 19 Sep 22 - 05:11 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 Sep 22 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 Sep 22 - 06:19 AM
Steve Gardham 19 Sep 22 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 Sep 22 - 04:14 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Sep 22 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 Sep 22 - 06:05 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 20 Sep 22 - 06:11 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 20 Sep 22 - 09:40 PM
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Subject: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Sep 22 - 06:25 PM

“As a plain sailor with his boisterous chime.

The present Manager of the Chatham Garden Theatre, was formerly a Lieutenant in the British Navy. He was afterwards on the boards of the Norwich Company in England. He was principally applauded for singing a common sailor's chant in character – having a sort of “Sally Brown, oh, ho,” chorus; and requiring the action of pulling a rope, spitting upon the hand, and the accompaniment of a horrid yell….”
[Horace in New York, Campbell, 1826]


Maritime work song in general


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Sep 22 - 06:33 PM

“Subject: RE: Maritime work song in general
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 22 - 07:09 AM

These 1820s anecdotes are very tantalising. It is not easy to relate them to what was happening in the 1840s or to the embryonic chanties of the rowing slaves. Some titles or hints of what they were singing would be useful and more conclusive. The fact that there was a Sally Brown song being sung on stage is also intriguing but without further details again we can't draw any other conclusions.”

Donner longue rime!

My Mudcat search function has been a dead end for a while now. Is there a “main” Sally Brown thread? Found these:
Lyr Add: 'Sally Brown'
Lyr Req: Sally Brown – unexpurgated

But they all appear to come much later and give no mention of the 'original' (???) Sally Brown. Should merge this with the other if it does exist.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Sep 22 - 06:41 PM

1820s popular show-biz version of Sally Brown.

FAITHLESS SALLY BROWN (Hood)

AN OLD BALLAD

Young Ben he was a nice young man,
A carpenter by trade;
And he fell in love with Sally Brown,
That was a lady's maid.

But as they fetched a walk one day,
They met a press-gang crew;
And Sally she did faint away,
Whilst Ben he was brought to.

The Boatswain swore with wicked words,
Enough to shock a saint,
That though she did seem in a fit,
'Twas nothing but a feint.

Come, girl, said he, hold up your head,
He'll be as good as me;
For when your swain is in our boat,
A boatswain he will be."

So when they'd made their game of her,
And taken off her elf,
She roused, and found she only was
A coming to herself.

And is he gone, and is he gone?
She cried, and wept outright:
Then I will to the water side,
And see him out of sight.

A waterman came up to her,
Now, young woman, said he,
If you weep on so, you will make
Eye-water in the sea.

Alas! they've taken my beau Ben
To sail with old Benbow;
And her woe began to run afresh,
As if she'd said gee woe!

Says he, They've only taken him
To the Tender ship, you see;
The Tender, cried Sally Brown,
What a hard-ship that must be!

O! would I were a mermaid now,
For then I'd follow him;
But Oh! I'm not a fish-woman,
And so I cannot swim.

Alas! I was not born beneath
“The virgin and the scales,”
So I must curse my cruel stars,
And walk about in Wales.

Now Ben had sail'd to many a place
That's underneath the world;
But in two years the ship came home,
And all her sails were furl'd.

But when he call'd on Sally Brown,
To see how she went on,
He found she'd got another Ben,
Whose Christian name was John.

O Sally Brown, O Sally Brown,
How could you serve me so,
I've met with many a breeze before,
But never such a blow!

Then reading on his 'bacco box
He heaved a bitter sigh,
And then began to eye his pipe,
And then to pipe his eye.*

And then he tried to sing "All's Well,"
But could not though he tried;
His head was turn'd, and so he chew'd
His pigtail till he died.

His death, which happen'd in his berth,
At forty-odd befell:
They went and told the sexton, and
The sexton toll'd the bell.

*Catullus has imitated this:
        Ad dominam solam usque pip-abat. Printer's Devil.”
[The London Magazine, Vol.5, 1822]
Thomas Hood (1799 - 1845)

The cited volume has a scribble in the margin: T. Hood, alternate stanzas by John H. Reynolds, (Hood's brother-in-law: John Hamilton Reynolds (1794 – 1852))

Never been able to figure which author wrote what verses but, it does at least suggest this is not the earliest version out there.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Sep 22 - 10:29 PM

Here's a recording. It is isn't the same as the lyrics Phil posted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEIuFH0DNCQ

And here's David Harley, a performance I find more satisfying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lbkuk5SulE


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Sep 22 - 10:31 PM

I heard Pipe your eye in Gilbert&Sullivan. Never knew what it meant before!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: Reinhard
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 01:34 AM

Faithless Sally Brown in The Poetry of Thomas Hood, read by Richard Mitchley and Ghizela Rowe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxcFm882WHI.
There are only very slight differences to the lyrics shown above.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 04:50 AM

The OP is actually a footnote to a verse. The clipped bit is: “...In private life, both Mr. and Mrs. Wallack were much respected. Mr. W. need not feel hurt at being told of what he has been:”

James William Wallack (1794 – 1864)

“...It is said that he was originally intended for the Navy, and that at an early age he received his appointment as midshipman. Attracted by the Profession of which his father had been such a distinguished member, he must, however, have soon renounced all idea of a life on the ocean wave. Richard Brinsley Sheridan, seeing the young Wallack in one of his juvenile impersonations, was so struck by the talent displayed that he procured for him an engagement at the age of twelve, at Drury-lane Theatre. In the bill of the Pantomime of Furibond; or Harlequin Negro, produced here in 1807, “Negro-boy, Master James Wallack,” may be read as one of the conspicuous lines, and his progress from that time seemed to be rapid.”
[Death and Memoir of Mr. James Wallace, The Era, 15 January 1865]

Note: Also some sort of family connection to the song Bound Prentice to a Waterman.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: Reinhard
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 05:11 AM

The capstan/halyard shanty Sally Brown (Roud 2628) and the poem Faithless Sally Brown (Roud V625) are completely different; the only connection is that both females have the same name. The citation in the OP cleary refers to the shanty, not to the poem.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 06:17 AM

The citation in the OP cleary refers to the shanty, not to the poem.

From the linked thread:
"Sally Brown - Roud 2628. – James Bounds - Portsmouth
(GG/1/14/885) – Tune & Text – Bounds – 5 Aug 1907
Collected by Dr. G. Grardiner."

The OP refers to a stage 1822 act. How did you get such clarity working back from 1907, absent lyrics and/or music?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 06:19 AM

*1826 stage act.

My bad.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 10:18 AM

I haven't got the references to hand but Gibb has several contemporary references to SB being used as a rowing song in the first 2 decades of the 19thc and it appears to be an embryonic form of the chanty. It certainly seems to be one of our earliest chanties. 3 others are 'Cheerly Men', 'Grog Time o' day, and 'Going down to Georgia'.

There is some evidence to suggest that 'Cheerly Men' was an English work song used on small Naval vessels well before the American developments.

I back Reinhard's statement. There may or may not be some vague connection in the use of the name SB.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 04:14 PM

Did a hard word search on the Advent thread. Son-of-a-gun in a circle:

"Subject: RE: The Advent and Development of Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:23 PM

And from Lighter again. The publication date is 1826, but Lighter's biographical info suggest the singer might have learned this Sally Brown "sailors' chant" anytime between 1808 and then.

*SNIP*
Isaac Starr Clason, "Horace in New-York," 1826, p. 46: "The present Manager of the Chatham Garden Theatre, was formerly a Lieutenant in the British Navy. He was afterwards on the boards of the Norwich Company in England. He was principally applauded for singing a common sailors' chant in character, having a sort of 'Sally Brown, oh, ho,' chorus; and requiring the action of pulling a rope, spitting upon the hand, and the accompaniment of a horrid yell. In private life, both Mr. and Mrs. Wallack were much respected."

Clason's use of the word "chant" is almost as significant as "Sally Brown," "pulling a rope," and "a horrid yell." This could be the earliest clear reference to a "sea shanty as we know it," complete with Hugill-style "hitch"!
*SNIP*"

Note: Also quite a bit on Wallack as "formerly a Lieutenant in the British Navy" but I do think it's the wrong brother. Owner-v-manager (see above.) But in the end, same show biz hokum and little more than the song title to go on as far as I can read. So far.

However, rowing songs are older than history. Heia Viri is much older than the usual minstrel type chanties mentioned. "chants," "pulling a rope," "a horrid yell," &c&c are documented back many hundreds of years as generic "Maritime Work Song in General" not "sea shanty as we know it."

I've been told one should not lump them together...


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 04:55 PM

Lumping them together is your prerogative, Phil. Chantying has to be a subgenre of maritime worksong. It's just that most of us prefer to concentrate on the chantying itself and the direct precursers with a known connection.

Whatever Wallack was doing it surely must be based on something he had seen, not necessarily in the RN. As far as I'm concerned I'm happy to accept that some chantying was happening in the 1820s in anglophone vessels. We need to find more evidence. All of the 1820s and earlier evidence needs pulling together.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 06:05 PM

Wasn't my lumping Steve. I have no prerogatives t'all and, for the record, you are the pro from Dover on what makes you happy.

Martial was show biz. He's the numba one maritime worksong citation, hands down. Polybius was the nonfiction historian, doesn't anywhere near the same mentions.

Maritime work song, hokum inclusive, was certainly happening in the 1820s. No disagreement there I take it. How is that not what Wallack heard and did for a living?

How "chantying" gets backed into this narrative is still wanting a rational explanation from somebody here.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 06:11 AM

Alt title with music:

“YOUNG BEN, THE CARPENTER, AND SALLY BROWN
Air– “There's na luck about the House.”
[The Universal Songster, Or, Museum of Mirth, Vol.I, 1828]

Note: Addition of a Too ral, &c chorus after each verse w/minor variations in lyrics and verse structure from the above.

Aka: The tragical history of young Ben the carpenter and the faithless Sally Brown.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Faithless Sally Brown
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 09:40 PM

“THE BALLAD OF "SALLY BROWN, AND BEN THE CARPENTER."

I HAVE never been vainer of any verses than of my part in the following Ballad. Dr. Watts, amongst evangelical nurses, has an enviable renown–and Campbell's Ballads enjoy a snug genteel popularity. "Sally Brown" has been favoured, perhaps, with as wide a patronage as the Moral Songs, though its circle may not have been of so select a class as the friends of "Hohenlinden." But I do not desire to see it amongst what are called Elegant Extracts. The lamented Emery,–drest as Tom Tug, sang it at his last mortal Benefit at Covent Garden;–and, ever since, it has been a great favourite with the watermen of Thames, who time their oars to it, as the wherrymen of Venice time theirs to the lines of Tasso. With the watermen, it went naturally to Vauxhall: and over land, to Sadler's Wells. The Guards–not the mail coach, but the Life Guards,–picked it out from a fluttering hundred of others all going to one air against the dead wall at Knightsbridge.

Cheap Printers of Shoe Lane, and Cow-cross, (all pirates!) disputed about the Copyright, and published their own editions,—and, in the mean time, the Authors, to have made bread of their song, (it was poor old Homer's hard ancient case!) must have sung it about the streets. Such is the lot of Literature! the profits of "Sally Brown" were divided by the Ballad Mongers:–it has cost, but has never brought me, a halfpenny.”
[Whims and Oddities In Prose and Verse, with Forty Original Designs, Hood, 1826]


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