BS: robomatic in hospital

Subject: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 04:12 PM

Last time I was in Providence it was kidney stones...the day John McCain announced he had chose Our Sarah (Palin) as his running mate. Today it is the funeral for H.M.Queen Elizabeth II.

ME (Robert, first of his name) stuck here with a bowel blockage.

From the sublime to the supine.

A week ago I had a stomach ache upon retiring. The following night the same. That weeke d it occurred to me that my guts were not their usual talkative selves. The internet suggested waking them up. I took it easy. I made cream of celery soup to which I added chopped celery. It went down and, I thought, stayed down. Next day walked the dog that isn't mine and met the owners at our usual table in Starbucks. And ate some cheese and Guanita's corn chips.
That night, stomach ache. So next day ate barely anything. Guts still quiet, much too quiet. Were the upper guts speaki g to the lower guts? So I devised a dye teast. I roasted and ate a beet about the size of my cerebellum. I remembered this trick from a meal with my formerly one true girlfriend Helen Wheels. The next morning there were pretty blood-red whisps floating in some water from which I drew confidence that materiels necessary to life were making it "all the way through.
It was a false confidence.
Over the next three days I had two hamburgers a can of tunafish, and fried chicken all with my favorite sides of rice and refries.

Then came Saturday night when my esophagus went from tunnel of luv to maelstrom of ejection. Fountains of fury reminiscent of those episodes of Family Guy where the entire cast vomits copiously.
Same color, too.
What is it with refries?
(And how do I know I will return to my brown gooey sirens? Truly they are the generous Kim Kardashian of legumes.)
I will spare you the gory details except for the last one after throwing the bedsheets and some clothes in the washer and was wrapped in my goose down Eddie Bauer sleeping bag and found that my stomach had saved up one last convulsive spasm which sent me to the shower the second tier clothes rack and the Febreeze.

Got cleaned up and over to Starbucks.

-So, I asked my Starbucks friends, -what next?

-Dumbass, they said, -you gotta even ask? Go to Urgent Care.

-But it's Sunday!
-Think we don't know that, Dumbass. We came here from church. Know what the sermon was? Knock knock knockin' on Heaven's door!

-Ah Dylan.

-How can you know that and still be too dumb to live. We think you're a bad example for the dog. Now try to do something intelligent!

I drove to Urgentcare. They told me to go to Emergency. Except now according to themI could not drive myself.

At the hospital they checked my heart. They tomographied my guts. They found a blockage.

Thanks, dumbass beets!

So I've got a tube down my nose and they are trying to depressurize my small intestine. If that inconvenience don't work, I sure as hell won't like the next option.

But, as usual, I'm lucky to be here. And not in pain. I've gone to a better place until the bills come. That should make some sh..!

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 04:35 PM

You're gonna make it. A blockage is serious. A strangulation of the small intestine is life threatening. You may get a tube up the nose to deliver medicine to the blockage which takes longer than the -UGH- quick method. Thank your gut sense for the warning and get well soon.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 06:54 PM

A blockage is something you shouldn't ignore. I'm astonished at how much you kept eating with out getting the output that would register successful digestion. My next door neighbor had a couple of these episodes (a ride to the hospital via ambulance) and finally had surgery to fix it. No fun. Stay well.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 07:02 PM

Keep us posted, mate. Been through a tough time meself lately but I can hardly say that I know how you feel. At 71 I've taken my last two weeks as a yellow card. Get well and keep posting your wisdom!

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Sep 22 - 09:22 PM

Thank you and I wish you good health in return. Easy to take for granted until it's not there.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: JennieG
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 01:24 AM

Oh no, Rob.....hope all goes well for you!

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 02:34 AM

Get well soon Robo!

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 02:54 AM

Warm wishes for a quick recovery Robo. You did the right thing to get yourself into medical care.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 03:25 AM

Good grief, robo. As a fellow Alaskan I feel I have a stake in you. Get it sorted, pronto. (I'm studying Spanish.)

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 03:28 AM

Now robomatic, there is your problem! (As the Mythbusters would say. LOL). Ebbie has a stake in you. No wonder you have a blockage.

But seriously, I'm glad you sought help in time and I hope you feel better soon.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: fat B****rd
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 04:30 AM

Feel better soon, Robo. Best regards from Charlie (fB)

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 01:12 PM

That occurred to me too, Helen. I may have to rethink his problem. OTOH, he and I live in gold country and a stake is understandable. Though my stake in HIS claim is illegal. (I give up...)

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 01:46 PM

Or Ebbie, it could be a steak. Too much meat and not enough healthy legumes? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 01:51 PM

Sorry, robomatic. I'm just playing on words. I know nothing about your meat:legume diet ratio. (I'm a big fan of legumes but I do eat meat.)

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 10:10 PM

Aw, man, hope everything comes out all right!

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 10:19 PM

Well, in some ways I lucked out in that I got into treatment with little delay, they had me on broth for two days and a kind of vacuum to intend to relax the intestines that were 'crimped'. This morning I had eggs and toast and they told me to go home.

I've graduated to 4 shrimps and we'll see how things play out.

Thanks for the kind words. Or ANY words.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 20 Sep 22 - 11:25 PM

That's good news. I hope you continue to improve.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Sep 22 - 04:29 PM

They didn't suggest a diet that will support your bowel health, or send you home with a large-size bottle of Colace?

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 01:32 PM

Unfiltered apple juice (including the pulp, for the pectin in it)
always helped me (peristalsis).

Do whatever helps YOU, and feel better soon, robo.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 02:47 PM

Thanks again. I have been cautiously eating. A couple of eggs and some apple sauce.

keb, when I got out Tuesday I stopped at the supermarket and bought a big jar of unsweetened apple sauce and started on that.

Today I am resisting picking up some Pad Thai. I may make a hamburger slider for myself.

Supposedly I'm supposed to eat low residue foods, so I may get some white rice instead of my usual brown.

SRS they gave me a bunch of stuff to read, so maybe I should read some of it!

I am cautiously optimistic but simply not back to usual working order yet. Having a tube down my nose seems to have impaired my voice, as well. A boon to some.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 02:59 PM

"Low residue foods." That's a first for me. What is included in that category?

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 10:13 AM

Bruce Forsyth (British comedian, dancer/dance judge, game show host, and film actor) had something akin to that. He described a posture, and was advised after long years of suffering spasms. It was a bit like "squats" only he held the posture for longer. I am pretty sure his was to do with a stricture & the duodenum v large stomach.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 10:33 AM

Every so often we see something called a "squatty potty stool that is supposed to better align everything for effective elimination.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 07:02 PM

Ye gods.

A friend of mine who was suffering from a fissure was advised by his doctor thus:

"The trouble with you professional guys is that you're always in such a bloody hurry! From now on, just sit there, relax and shit like a cow..."

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 07:22 PM

The solar plexus has half the cerebrum's number of neurons. It is responsible for many things including digestion. The parasympathetic nerves and muscles of the intestines do respond to our conscious control via massage up and down on the lower LEFT side of the abdomen.

I should write, the 'Instruction book of the human body'.
But then guys wouldn't read it.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 08:07 PM

Just as well they wouldn't read it. The solar plexus may well connect to the various organs in the abdomen, including the stomach, but it is not "responsible for digestion."

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 22 - 08:11 PM

Incidentally, the solar plexus is part of the sympathetic nervous system, not the parasympathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 02:09 PM

SRS the 'low residue' was a counter-intuitive notion to me. I'd've guessed after the shutdown and emptying of the system one would want a pipe cleaner! But I was encouraged to have eggs and toast, apple sauce, and non spicy foods.

At the moment I think the blockage is gone, but what remains is constipation. So I'm still going easy. No bloat, no pain, just slow addition of food to the tube. In addition my voice is not back. I sound like someone who was punched in the throat. I'm thinking this was because of the plastic tube down my throat.

At this point I want to emphasize that I think I received very good and prompt treatment. I think our medical system is effed, but I threaded that system with help of friends, a certain amount of timing good fortune, and quality good natured personnel. While some of what happened like getting a tube down my nose was uncomfortable, nothing was painful. The truth as usual- I'm lucky to be here.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 02:26 PM

As someone who is still sick after three weeks, I fully sympathise. But if someone told me I had to eat lots of eggs on toast, I'd be over the moon. Scrambled, soft-boiled, fried, poached, anything as long as the yolks are runny, and no fewer than three eggs, please.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 02:47 PM

Your reprieve may only be what they call bypass.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 03:16 PM

robomatic, "counter-intuitive" is exactly what I was thinking aboutthe recommendation for low residue foods, too, but it's possible that in the early stages of your recovery it is a good way to ease back into normality.

Did they also recommend drinking good amounts of water?

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 06:44 PM

The medics on the spot are in the best position to know what should work for your recovery. Medical opinions on Mudcat are, at best, quasi, and based on incomplete information about your situation. Do as they tell you, and, begod, make sure they tell you to consume eggs in all shapes and forms... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 07:35 PM

As Steve said, don't take any notice of his advice.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 07:54 PM

I haven't given any advice. Unlike you. Shades of all that keto nonsense a while back...

I don't regard all medics as infallible, and why would they be. But they're the guys on the spot. They've passed all their exams and they have all your history. They're the best guys to tell you what high or low residue foods to eat and whether you should be drinking lots of water. I've been ill for several weeks now with all sorts, including a bit of a kidney crisis. The last place I'd ever look for advice, or for the demurring of the medical advice I've received, is from unqualified people here on Mudcat. My doctors are wonderful, occasionally they're full of what could be bullshit, but they're the best I've got by a long chalk. Robo is a fierce and feisty sort of chap and he will know damn well who to listen to. All I'd say to him (whimsically, in case some rather literal-minded yanks or Aussies get me wrong), is to keep eating those bloody eggs if that's what they're telling you. There's nothing more cheery than a damn good plateful of eggs, done any way you like as long as the yolks are runny.

(Mind you, three or four stone-cold hard-boiled eggs on a cold day for a picnic... Nirvana...)

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 07:58 PM

Baited, hooked!! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 08:03 PM

So you're admitting that you're trolling? Even I didn't think that! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 08:09 PM

my brother has been in ICU with a ruptured bowel & sepsis - 50% survival rate - but was recently woken from in induced coma & wiggled his toes! So now they are feeding him "white goo" in a tube.

We are all happier now.

No doubt eggs & other yummy stuff will be heading his way sometime soon.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 08:26 PM

Great stuff, Sandra. Sepsis has been the biggest threat to me this time around. My infection markers during my latest bout of cellulitis were sky-high and I was on intravenous antibiotics for several days. After three weeks I'm still being tested. The infection, or possibly the severe dehydration I suffered because of it, has seriously nobbled my kidneys too. I think I'm on the mend but I won't know until my next set of blood tests. Good luck to your bro, and I'm certain that eggs will be his saviour!

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 09:38 PM

eggs rule! nutrition in a shell

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 10:49 AM

If I don't eat eggs every day I feel somehow bereft. Today is such a day...

I'm sure I read somewhere that the advice to not eat too many eggs per week (a derisory number as I recall) has been dropped. Imagine my delight!

I'm not too great at successfully poaching eggs, so if I want eggs on toast but want to keep the calories down I just soft-boil 'em and squidge 'em on the, er, buttered toast... Nirvana!

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 12:50 PM

A very good food even for people recovering from cancer is avocado.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 03:05 PM

Just had a couple of eggs, which have not been enough of my diet over the last few years. And indeed I feel better. Full of protein, not too many calories, and the hen is no worse off.

One thing to mention: I went to an urgent care center as my 'entrance' into the health care system. Before they addressed my symptom of no food passing, major vomiting, intestinal discomfort and etc, they took out their stethoscopes and told me I had an arhythmia. This had good and bad results. The bad was that they told me I needed to go to emergency, and their first choice was an ambulance. It is well known that a ride in an ambulance of even the smallest duration is hideously expensive, and all it is is a ride. Whatever they heard in my chest was not new nor liable to affect my immediate health, so I refused to go, but I was smart enough to call someone smarter than me, who said: "I will run you to Emergency myself, and they can let you in because of the arrythmia, but this will get you looked after for what is really bothering you right away." So the bad result was the same as the good result. I had to sign waivers that I was refusing medical advice, but my driver got me to Emergency which took me just as easily as if I'd been ambulanced.

I am also going to prepare some 'thank-you' notes to all the medical personnel I crossed paths with. And I am going to follow up on the heart information once I have a digestive system that is close to what I'm used to. Someone above said the guts have a brain of their own, and I'm prepared to believe that. I sure hope it is smarter than the bundle of neurons north of the collar.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 03:17 PM

Well I've often been told that my brain is in my arse - is that what you mean? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 04:20 PM

It's no secret that I am a big fan of Dr Michael Mosley, and I watched his show about the gut. Here is a page about his book and diet
Clever Guts

"Your gut is astonishingly clever. It contains millions of neurons - as many as you would find in the head of a cat. It is also home to the microbiome, trillions of microbes that influence our mood, weight and immune system."

For a brief overview:

The link on that page "More from Michael" which includes this statement

"If you have severe gut problems you really must see your doctor and exclude more serious conditions before embarking on it. Please see the question “Who should NOT do the diet” in our FAQ and our medical disclaimer."

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 06:15 PM

The trouble with Michael Mosley and his ilk is that they make their dough out of making us a bit more anxious about our diet and our gut. Anyone who is heading for gut trouble should consult their doctor. The telly doctors and the pushers of fad diets know nothing about you and your particular circumstances. Much of Michael's advice is undoubtedly good, but it can't be prescriptive for you. Overall good advice about healthy eating, the Mediterranean diet, etc., can't be bad, but the obstinate fact is that he doesn't know you and your condition.   We should always beware of any medical or dietary "advice" proffered by members of internet forums. Interesting reading is one thing, and can inform us. Generic advice is entirely a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 07:51 PM

Which part of this don't you understand?

"If you have severe gut problems you really must see your doctor and exclude more serious conditions before embarking on it. Please see the question “Who should NOT do the diet” in our FAQ and our medical disclaimer."

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:19 PM

Read it again. Properly this time, maybe? And do try to read between the lines. Michael isn't out to do you a favour.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:23 PM

Nice try.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 08:58 PM

Well he's certainly got you where he wants you. He's a very nice chap, but he's Mr Popular Science Man through and through. Potted, dumbed down, a bit short on scientific rigour to say the least. Do try to see that.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 09:18 PM

The trouble with Dr. Shaw and his ilk is that they make up their advice making us a bit more anxious about advice and its pitfalls. Anyone who is ill should consult their doctor.

However doctors in general will know nothing about you and your particular circumstances. They do not know much about the gut biome and its relationship to mental or physical health. It is more guesswork than your average shmoe may realize.

The gut biome influences will become more accepted in time just as antibiotics gained favor in the early days of their discovery and now their declining effectiveness. If you got a flu shot this year it too is based upon guesswork regarding which variant will be sickening the most people.

Meanwhile a probiotic may be more helpful and cause no harm unlike some forms of anxious advice. The price of advice is rarely related to effectiveness. For some ailments only 2 doctors in the entire world may be qualified to diagnose and provide treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 08:11 AM

> Anyone who is ill should consult their doctor.

Hear, hear.

> It is more guesswork than your average shmoe may realize.

But informed guesswork, with many years' training and experience behind it. Don't knock experience as a research tool.

Engage rant mode: It always saddens me that people will ignore someone who is honest enough to admit the element of doubt in scientific theories and results, while swallowing, whole and without hesitation, something that's stated with certainty by someone whose qualifications begin and end with "wot some bloke said in the pub yesterday", or (worse) blindly follow the top hit on Google .... "garbage in, Gospel out", an' all that.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 08:41 AM

Flu jabs (I'm having mine in the next half-hour as it happens) are not predicated on guesswork. They are based on highly-informed predictions as to which strains will be prevalent in the coming season.

Probiotics may do no harm except to your wallet. The jury is very much out on whether they are even slightly effective, or not effective at all. These things are easy to research for yourself. Of course, if you want to believe in them, good for you. But don't forget what "believe" actually means.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 12:22 PM

Our flu jab contains an extra ingredient for over-65s that makes it "take" better. It works against four strains of the virus. I used to get flu a lot, maybe once every couple of years, but I haven't had it since I started having the jab about ten years ago. Clearly some brilliant, er, guesswork going on there! Next stop covid booster, then next stop shingles jab. I feel like a pincushion.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 12:39 PM

And for the fans of probiotics, this makes for a rather sobering read:

"Probiotics: elixir or empty promise?"

(The Lancet Gastroenterology & Hepatology)

Just a few points, though it isn't a long read:

Evidence for the efficacy of probiotics is weak or, in some cases, non-existent.

Probiotics are classed as food, not medicines, so are not subject to anything like the same regulation, if at all, and are not subject to clinical trials.

Some probiotics in some people may actually interfere with the gut flora recovery process after illness or antibiotic use.

There is limited evidence that probiotics may help to reduce diarrhoea in some people after antibiotic treatment, but consistent evidence is thin.

The suggestion is that a healthy, varied diet may be a better way forward.

A number of medical websites suggest that while probiotics are probably harmless, you shouldn't waste your money!

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 02:50 PM

Perhaps it would be useful to provide the link to the article you want people to read.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 03:47 PM

robomatic, I congratulate you on escaping the expensive ambulance ride. The bills from those companies are the subject of many medical cost stories on NPR and other places.

robomatic's thread has nearly been hijacked by the anti-Moseley Steve. A physician looking into various aspects of medical topics of interest to viewers doesn't make him a bad doctor. There was so much response to his fasting program that he followed it up with more research and a book. So sue him.

Helen, I also like the programs that I've seen from Moseley. I followed the general pattern of alternate day fasting in his Eat, Fast, and Live Longer to finally get back to what I consider my "normal" weight. It was a logical approach that didn't require plans or special foods, just common sense and six months of dedication to the project and a lot of exercise to round it out. My GP knew I was going to work on this ever since I had the thyroid diagnosis. I haven't seen Moseley's gut program but will look into it. My gastroenterologist recommends fiber and probiotics. (She's rather insistent about fiber!) I'm coming up on my fourth colonoscopy next year (five years apart) and have been meaning to find out if her recommendation is more refined than in the past. I also have a copy of David Sedaris' Let's Explore Diabetes with Owls to give her - he has a hilarious essay about his first colonoscopy.

Keeping my gut happy has been something I didn't pay as much attention to as I should have over the years, but this year I also decided to make fruits and vegetables a bigger part of my diet, eating less bread (though I do love it!) and meat in dishes, rarely a cut of meat on the plate (steak and potatoes, a whole chicken breast, etc. are rarely on the menu.) I eat more fish. My gut seems to be happier. As I mentioned at the top of the thread, my next door neighbor was rushed to the hospital a couple of times and ended up with surgery to remove a blockage. Serious stuff there, and something to be avoided at all costs. Robo got lucky if they only treatment he needs is what he had so far.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 04:16 PM

I didn't bring up Mosley! Note the correct spelling, by the way. His programmes are entertaining and doubtless contain some good ideas, and his producers/scriptwriters would never allow any wacky or damaging content, but they are not predicated on real science. Fine to take what you like from them. Also fine to question his lack of rigour. You can actually do both, I've found, and indeed I do. By the way, on 22 September, in two posts, I fully supported robo's doctors as they are the guys on the spot who know best what they're dealing with. I should think that Mosley and his shows are generally irrelevant with regard to that....yet I'm the hijacker!

Just google it, Helen.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 05:09 PM

Very interesting article. It's a very short article but I think it is worth reading the whole article and not the bits and pieces one person has chosen to quote from it.

Essentially, the way I read it is that the author surmises that there needs to be further research especially in finding ways to personalise treatments for the most effective results.

This sentence is interesting because it suggests that "trans-poo-sion" (a comical play on words combining "poo" and "transfusion" which I first heard in a medical documentary) appears to have effective results:

"While likely to be considerably less appealing, the group who received autologous faecal microbiota transplantation recovered their microbiota the quickest, with the composition of the microbiota returning to normal within days."


Editorial| Volume 4, ISSUE 2, P81, February 01, 2019

Probiotics: elixir or empty promise?

    The Lancet Gastroenterology & Hepatology

Published:February, 2019DOI:https://doi.org/10.1016/S2468-1253(18)30415-1

The gut microbiota has been implicated in diseases ranging from obesity to Parkinson's disease and depression. Little wonder then that commercial probiotics have gained widespread popularity and are now estimated to command a US$37 billion market worldwide. But with research into the microbiome still in its infancy, increasing evidence suggests that both commercial and clinical use of probiotics is outpacing the science.

Evidence from clinical trials is mixed and often of low quality, but findings from meta-analyses suggest that probiotics can provide benefits in the treatment of some conditions, such as infectious and antibiotic-associated diarrhoea. As such, taking probiotics after antibiotic treatment is an increasingly common practice. However, two studies recently reported in Cell question whether taking highly concentrated supplements of so-called good bacteria aids the recovery of normal gut flora.

Suez and colleagues investigated the recovery of the gut microbiota after antibiotic treatment and found that probiotics might perturb rather than aid this process. The probiotics rapidly colonised the gut but prevented the normal microbiota from repopulating for up to 5 months. While likely to be considerably less appealing, the group who received autologous faecal microbiota transplantation recovered their microbiota the quickest, with the composition of the microbiota returning to normal within days. Furthermore, Zmora and colleagues showed that colonisation occurred in highly individualised patterns, with some people's gastrointestinal tracts rejecting probiotics and others allowing colonisation by the probiotic strain, meaning that many individuals taking probiotic supplements are simply wasting their money.

Two large-scale clinical trials recently reported in the New England Journal of Medicine suggest that the situation in infectious diarrhoea might also be more complex than previously believed. Freedman and colleagues did a randomised controlled trial of a probiotic containing Lactobacillus rhamnosus and Lactobacillus helveticus in children presenting to the emergency department with gastroenteritis. Contrary to expectations, they found that the probiotic did not prevent development of moderate-to-severe gastroenteritis within 14 days after enrolment. In a separate study, Schnadower and colleagues found similar results with L rhamnosus GG alone. Both trials used probiotics that are available over the counter in North America and showed no significant difference from placebo in the duration of diarrhoea and vomiting, number of unscheduled health-care visits, or length of absence from day care. These results cannot be generalised to other probiotic strains or preparations, but they do show that we have some way to go in elucidating which probiotics might provide benefits in which clinical settings.

Importantly, patients with gastrointestinal conditions are not the only ones taking probiotics. 3·9 million people in the USA alone regularly take probiotic supplements, with promised benefits ranging from improved digestion and immune function to improved mental health and prevention of heart disease. However, evidence for these benefits is lacking, and because probiotics are often sold as supplements, manufacturers in many countries are not required to provide evidence of their safety and efficacy to regulatory bodies. The ubiquity of probiotic products would suggest that, at worst, they are harmless. Nevertheless, some safety concerns have been raised, including the risk of contamination, possibility of fungaemia or bacteraemia (particularly in immune-compromised, elderly, or critically ill individuals), small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, and antibiotic resistance. Adding to concerns, clinical trials of probiotics have not consistently reported safety outcomes.

While the logic behind probiotics might seem sound, it is clear that we have a long way to go before understanding the complexity of the microbiota and the effects—both good and bad—that probiotics might have. All individuals have a unique gut microbiome, and the effects of different bacteria on different people are likely to be highly variable; as such, probiotic use might even need to be personalised for optimal benefits. Commercially available products might not contain the correct strains or quantities of bacteria to provide benefits, and most probiotic supplements contain only single strains, vastly oversimplifying the complexity of the microbiota. While taking a supplement for improved health is certainly an attractive prospect, those looking to aid their gut microbiota might be better served by consuming a healthy, varied diet. In the meantime, rigorous clinical trials are needed to substantiate potential health benefits and to confirm whether probiotics are elixirs or just empty promises.

For the study by Suez and colleagues see Cell 2018; 174: 1406–23
For the study by Zmora and colleagues see Cell 2018; 174: 1388–405
For the study by Freedman and colleagues see N Engl J Med 2018; 379: 2015–26
For the study by Schnadower and colleagues see N Engl J Med 2018; 379: 2002–14


Copyright © 2019 Dennis Kunkel Microscropy/Science Photo Library
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Publication History
Published: February 2019
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DOI: https://doi.org/10.1016/S2468-1253(18)30415-1
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© 2018 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.
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Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 05:09 PM

This is where we disagree: but they are not predicated on real science. You seem to suggest anything you don't agree with isn't real science, and that is a recurring theme in your posts over the years. Mosely/Mosley is a typo, don't bother to try to turn that into your argument. You should have done Helen the courtesy of posting the link to your article, considering the number of times you criticize others for not posting sources.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 06:52 PM

Then you made the exact same typo three times in one post! :-)

I don't disagree with Mosley's programmes. Not at all. In fact, I've watched a good few, though not all. When he gets a small group of people to take part in his latest study, for example, it's interesting but it's not science. The sample sizes are way too small and the "experiments" are carried out over far too short a time. He knows it too. At best, they may suggest something of interest that requires further study. That's all fine, though I wouldn't risk staking my life on his conclusions. It's entirely up to the viewers whether or not they take a dispassionate view of his findings, or, alternatively, decide whether he's saying what they want to hear. I'm not saying anything derogatory here. I'm simply describing the limitations of popular science. And I tend not to shout at you when I disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 07:10 PM

"Very interesting article. It's a very short article but I think it is worth reading the whole article and not the bits and pieces one person has chosen to quote from it."

Yes it is. I did point you to it, not wanting you to think that I'd only mention the juicy bits, and, by the way, contrary to what you say, I didn't quote from it. You're both quite good at misrepresentation today! I think the bottom line from the Lancet piece is that probiotics don't come out of it very well at all. You'll find similar demurrals in other sources too (though not, of course, the ones that are there to push probiotics). As I said, because they are classed as foods, not medicines, they escape rigorous examination of their claims and are not subject to clinical trial. Of course, not everything that isn't clinically trialled is bad. If you like taking them and believe they're doing you good, that's great. As for me, I'd rather spend the considerable money they cost on nice food. I've just come off two weeks of one gram of flucloxacillin four times a day, as well as a short bout of intravenous antibiotics. That was a heavyweight assault on my gut (which, in spite of decades of good living, is generally in remarkably robust working condition) and I felt it at times. I found that eating mild-flavoured and easy-to-digest foods did the trick. But that's not science, that's just me, and we're all different.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 09:22 PM

Good discussion despite some usual narcissist symptomology. In fact, arrogance can serve as a sounding board or devil's advocate that can stimulate thought. There is a most elite arrogant lake Superior and the water is unbelievably old but fresh.

Robo did you lose the tube?

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 04:43 AM

Do you seriously think that the academic reputation of the scientists on Dr Mosley's shows would be placed in jeopardy by simply relying on a small trial sample which is shown for illustrative purposes only. The scientists have already done the real-life studies. That's why they are invited to participate on the shows.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 05:30 AM

Give us some examples.

As I said, the producers/scriptwriters are not going to permit unfounded claims to be made that could be harmful to some viewers. But there is a world of difference between interesting findings from short-term, small-scale, made-for-telly delvings and rigorous, peer-reviewed science. There's nothing wrong with Michael's little sorties into the ins and outs of human behaviour, etc., but he would tell you that you shouldn't try to take more from them than is justified by the limited approach. That's all. I'm not saying it's not valuable or that he's a charlatan. Not a bit of it. But he's there to inform a little bit and to entertain a lot. He's very good at it. If they put me up there with exactly the same material, the viewing figures would be nil.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 10:27 AM

Calm down, folks. I hereby offer a parallel example from my own experience:

Many, many moons ago, our doctor in Nottingham suggested I try eliminating four things from my diet to help my eczema, of which one was cows' milk ("try goats' milk instead"), and another was orange juice. More recently, my eczema flared summat rotten, and I was sent to the specialist (in Oxford, near where we now live). I mentioned the ban on cows' milk. When he finished laughing, the specialist said: "Doctors like to give patients impossible challanges: you'll never eliminate cows' milk, as it's in so many products. But carry on drinking goats' milk if you like the taste."

I've come to the conclusion that (eg) giving up cows' milk gives one something to do, so one feels a bit more in control; and if it doesn't work, there's not much lost. (Eczema is one of those conditions where correlation between cause and effect is problematical at best, except for the disastrous effects of biological washing powder.) And I do prefer the taste, as it happens, but I'm happy enough to drink cows' milk when our fridge runneth over with it, and the goat's run dry.

Meanwhile, back at the Subject: Best of health, robo.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 10:43 AM

I'll drink oat milk 'til it comes out of my ears and I'll have it on my Shreddies and use it to make my porridge, but I must have full-fat cows' milk in my flat whites and semi-skimmed in my tea. So our transaction with cows' milk has lessened severely down the years, and I must say I feel better for it. But that's not science or a recommendation - that's just me!

Stuff such as orange juice is loaded with sugars, natural though such sugars are. Recently I've taken to peeling tangerines by the three and whizzing them, pith, pips and all, with my hand blender in a jug. A bit of added water to make it a longer drink and it's delicious, and I'm getting all the fibre! When my kidneys were damaged by dehydration a few weeks ago, I took to doing this instead of just scoffing the tangerines as is in order to up my fluid intake. I must say, I much prefer it to bought orange juice...

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 11:40 AM

Meat, cheese and all the white carbs (rice, potato...) except eggs are the constipating foods. That is if low residue = constipating.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 11:48 AM

I eat all that stuff all the time and I never, repeat never, get constipated. As potatoes are high-fibre and ninety-odd percent water, perhaps you could explain to us how they would get you constipated.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 22 - 12:17 PM

Er, a bit less water than I said...

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 06:07 PM

Just came from my first checkup after leaving the hospital. The medical professional is having me meet with some specialists before letting me get a Covid booster, not that they are anti-booster, they want to let the pro assess the overall situation. They also recommended adding ground flax seed to my diet, for aiding digestive 'throughput'.

Subject: RE: BS: robomatic in hospital
From: Helen
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 07:16 PM

Thanks for the update, robomatic. Hopefully you are on the mend.