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Nic Jones

DigiTrad:
SINGER'S REQUEST


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clare s 17 Jan 00 - 07:06 PM
clare s 17 Jan 00 - 07:23 PM
Little Dorritt 17 Jan 00 - 07:42 PM
Bugsy 17 Jan 00 - 08:07 PM
JenEllen 17 Jan 00 - 09:15 PM
Bugsy 17 Jan 00 - 09:19 PM
Malcolm Douglas 17 Jan 00 - 09:24 PM
margaret 17 Jan 00 - 09:25 PM
Willie-O 17 Jan 00 - 11:10 PM
john c 18 Jan 00 - 02:25 AM
Bugsy 18 Jan 00 - 02:34 AM
JenEllen 18 Jan 00 - 03:15 AM
GeorgeH 18 Jan 00 - 04:16 AM
Micca 18 Jan 00 - 06:26 AM
Marc 18 Jan 00 - 07:59 AM
JamesBerriman 18 Jan 00 - 08:00 AM
Lady McMoo 18 Jan 00 - 09:59 AM
Wesley S 18 Jan 00 - 10:09 AM
Liz the Squeak 18 Jan 00 - 11:44 AM
JenEllen 18 Jan 00 - 11:51 AM
Neil Comer 18 Jan 00 - 12:02 PM
Neil Comer 18 Jan 00 - 12:02 PM
Lady McMoo 18 Jan 00 - 12:09 PM
Neil Comer 18 Jan 00 - 12:26 PM
clare s 18 Jan 00 - 01:08 PM
Neil Comer 18 Jan 00 - 02:01 PM
Doctor John 18 Jan 00 - 02:50 PM
Neil Comer 18 Jan 00 - 03:09 PM
john c 18 Jan 00 - 05:20 PM
lamarca 18 Jan 00 - 05:41 PM
clare s 18 Jan 00 - 05:47 PM
18 Jan 00 - 06:03 PM
JamesBerriman 18 Jan 00 - 07:03 PM
Sunley 18 Jan 00 - 09:48 PM
john c 19 Jan 00 - 02:13 AM
GeorgeH 19 Jan 00 - 10:39 AM
GeorgeH 19 Jan 00 - 10:53 AM
Doctor John 19 Jan 00 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,margaret 19 Jan 00 - 08:38 PM
lamarca 19 Jan 00 - 09:25 PM
GeorgeH 20 Jan 00 - 04:18 AM
JohnL 20 Jan 00 - 10:23 AM
Lady McMoo 20 Jan 00 - 10:59 AM
Liz the Squeak 20 Jan 00 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,Neil Comer 20 Jan 00 - 12:09 PM
clare s 20 Jan 00 - 02:44 PM
Malcolm Douglas 20 Jan 00 - 03:16 PM
clare s 20 Jan 00 - 04:27 PM
Wesley S 20 Jan 00 - 04:57 PM
lamarca 20 Jan 00 - 04:59 PM
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Subject: Nic Jones
From: clare s
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 07:06 PM

I'm sure that this has probably said before, but I'm going to say it again. Nic Jones's Penguin Eggs is $#@%*ing (very) fabulous.

I'd try to pick out a few tracks, but whenever I'm about to, the next track starts and is fab too.

I recommend everyone here to buy Penguin Eggs by Nic Jones (Topic Records) I'm not rich enough to offer a money-back guarantee... but I honestly don't think I'd need to

Buy it soon - you won't regret it

Clare


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: clare s
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 07:23 PM

Rereading my post I guess some might think that I'm trying to promote a new release.

Nic Jones was something of a star of the '70's english folk scene. Tragically he had a dreadful car crash in 1982. 'Penguin Eggs' - his 1982 album is the only one currently available (apart from a recent compiation - which is also fab).

Penguin Eggs remains as a wonderful album, and anyone with the remotest interest in English folk should own it.

Clare


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Little Dorritt
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 07:42 PM

here, here, one of the best folk albums ever


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Bugsy
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 08:07 PM

Definitaly a great album by a wonderful folk artist.

Can anyone update the 'Cat on Nic's current situation?

CHeers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: JenEllen
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 09:15 PM

Heard from a friend that all is about the same. Nic and the missus are taking it day by day. Seems he's paying more attention to the dog, and to music. Also that another round of fundraising and benefits were in order if anyone's interested.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Bugsy
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 09:19 PM

Thanks for that info, we don't seem to hear much about what's happening to him over here in Australia, though he has a lot of fans here,

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 09:24 PM

The Living Tradition occasionally has articles about Nic; two are available online.   Review of the live CD In Search of Nic Jones  and   A short biography, with some discussion of Nic's guitar tunings .  There's also an unofficial webpage,   here , which has a discography and track listings.  Lyrics are given, but some of these are from versions entirely different from those recorded by Nic; several, indeed, seem to have been borrowed from the DT!  There are a couple of sound samples, but they are re-interpretations and not, so far as I can tell, Nic's own playing.  Nevertheless, the site does contain useful information.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: margaret
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 09:25 PM

I'm going about this Nic Jones thing backwards. He's been recommended to me many times but I never came across his albums. Just last week, though, I found a used CD by John Wesley Harding called "Trad: Arr.Jones" which is pretty much what it sounds like -- Harding covering Jones' versions of trad. stuff. I like Harding's Elvis Costello-ish voice, though it might not appeal to everyone; and I'm very happy with the CD. This is slightly drifting, I know, but my point is, I'm all the more convinced I need to hear the real thing now!


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Willie-O
Date: 17 Jan 00 - 11:10 PM

John Wesley Harding? This wouldn't be Bob Dylan in disguise, would it? (Its commonly thought that when Dylan put out an album of trad songs a few years ago, he lifted arrangements from Nic Jones and some others, without giving credit--caused much (justified) fru-fru.)

Or is it someone taking a shot at Dylan by pointedly referencing both Dylan (who of course entitled a song & album "John Wesley Harding") and Jones' trad arrangements?

Seems a bit much of a coincidence...

Don't believe in them myself.

Willie-O


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: john c
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 02:25 AM

Great to hear that someone else agrees with me about Penguins Eggs. Ive said it before in other threads and Ill say it again - it is the best english traditional album - ever. The tragedy of his accident also brought to light one of the meanest stories Ive ever heard about the folk business. At a time when the Jones family needed nothing more than as much financial help as they could get, it was decided the best way to raise funds would be to rerelease all his old records as cds. A great idea - they are all brilliant and very hard to find on vinyl. But somebody, somewhere was, and still is, sitting on the rights to these recordings and refuses point-blank to allow them to be issued. As a result, we are being denied some of the finest music ever recorded in the folk idiom and, more important, a very important source of income is being withheld from Nic and his family. Not a nice story. And while Im on the subject - no jewels would have fallen off Bob Dylans crown if he´d at least acknowledged Nics influence when he recorded Canadee-i-o. Anyway, should Nic be reading this (a lot of important folkies do, even if they dont contribute) Id like to wish him all the best and thanks again for P.E.s.

John.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Bugsy
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 02:34 AM

Here Here!

Cheers

bugsy


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: JenEllen
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 03:15 AM

Nic got screwed by Dylan, just the same as Carthy did by Paul Simon. It's NOT a nice story. All the best of wishes to the Jones Family.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: GeorgeH
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 04:16 AM

JenEllen: The parallels between Jones/Dylan and Carthy/Simon are not as strong as you suggest, but these matters have been debated endlessly on rec.music.folk (where I've upset a lot of folks by standing firmly in the Carthy/Jones camp) and are not worth reviving here; anyone interested can visit DejaNews and see the original in all its gory. But it's fair to say neither Jones nor Carthy has ever put it as strongly as "being screwed". And Nic's family have MUCH more reason to feel agrieved by the refusal of Celtic Music to re-release his back catalogue (anyone wanting more info on this can look for a recent post of Pete Coe's on uk.music.folk concerning the Bandoggs album).

Personally, I prefer the unavailable "From the devil to a stranger" album to "Penguin Eggs".

And - IMO - it's unreasonably downbeat to suggest "everything continues as before" with Nic. There was a slow but steady improvement in Nic's health, mental and physical, over many years. These days he seems more "back to usual" than one would have ever imagined possible in the years immediately after his accident. The sleve notes on the "In Search of Nic Jones" CD are presented as if Nic wrote them and I've no reason to doubt this is the case; if so, they are a strong testament to the extent of his recovery. There was also an article in a fairly recent issue of Folk Roots which gives a similar, strongly positive message.

At the same time things can't be easy for Nic and his family; the could certainly make use of the royalties from everyone here buying the Penguin Eggs and In Search of Nic Jones CDs - and purchasers would be rewarded by two very fine recordings, as well.

BTW (Trivia point) there are many other albums with Nic playing as a session musician - including the Richard & Linda Thompson "Pour Down Like Silver".

G.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Micca
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 06:26 AM

I agree about Penguin Eggs, it is one of my 8 for the Desert island. especially as it was the first time I heard "little pot stove" and who ever wrote that had been to South Georgia!!! I have picked up the same positive noises from friends about Nics health for a few years now and have hopes of seeing him in performance one day. if you read this Nic or anyone connected please convey my best wishes also along with those others on thgis thread, You are not forgotten BTW i Frequently give PE as gifts.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Marc
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 07:59 AM

I think its interesting to hearpeople talk of him being screwed. Harry Robertsons family feels he did the same thing with penguin eggs.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: JamesBerriman
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 08:00 AM

On "Ballads and Songs", Nic Jones wrote:

"Annan Water is not such a well-known ballad. I have altered and simplified it considerably. The original verses may be found tucked inconspicuously away in an appendix of volume 4 of the Child Ballads. The tune used is an adaption of The brisk young lively lad, found in The Folk Song Journals."

So, can anyone with access to Child vol. 4 dig out those 'original verses' for me?

( :-]) James


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 09:59 AM

I have "From the devil to a stranger" and "The Noah's Ark trap" on vinyl but unfortunately my tape of "Penguin Eggs" (which was my personal favourite of the three) has long since perished. That reminds me I must buy a copy of the CD.

Does anybody think it would be a good idea to write en mass to Celtic Records lobbying them for a re-release of all Nic's recordings on CD? Besides the obvious benefits to Nic and his family all are classics and I'm pretty damn sure there would be a good market for them.

All the best,

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 10:09 AM

I've decided to order Penguin Eggs as a result of reading this thread. I've been hearing about it for months. Is there anyone else recording today doing similar work?


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 11:44 AM

Anyone remember Bandoggs? Pretty bloody good as well, but my copy has gone into hiding, which I knew where it was......!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: JenEllen
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 11:51 AM

OUCH George. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been. Certainly the parallels aren't as strong between Jones and Carthy...the only parallel I was referring to was the fact that they are both good musicians that had their time and effort stolen without the credit that was due them. it's probably as much their fault as any. I've never read/heard anywhere that they've been "screwed", it's just IMHO...(I think people who would talk that way probably don't have their work stolen very often).. Nic's family does have more reason to be upset. No one is doubting that. Martin Carthy is in the middle of a US tour, and where is Nic? My heart goes out to those at home. Nic's recovery Has been extensive. And I think "going on as before" is more fighting the good fight. They've never given up although they've had every right and chance to.

Wesley: depends on whether you want the sound or the lyrical content. I do like Carthy's earlier stuff with the flat fingerpicking sound..but for lyrical content, I've gotten quite fond of Kate Rusby. She's another for adapting the older songs...lovely stuff, but a bit dreary at times.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Neil Comer
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 12:02 PM

There is another recording which has become available on the market which contains Nic singing with The Halliard. It can be ordered from Mike Raven ( who is very obliging) whose address is on the above mentioned unofficial website. I agree about torturing the record company to release the old vinyl on CD. By the way, can anyone give me any insight into chord shapes for Canadee-i-o. I believe that it is in C-Modal ( or Seven Yellow Gypsies, for that matter)


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Neil Comer
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 12:02 PM

There is another recording which has become available on the market which contains Nic singing with The Halliard. It can be ordered from Mike Raven ( who is very obliging) whose address is on the above mentioned unofficial website. I agree about torturing the record company to release the old vinyl on CD. By the way, can anyone give me any insight into chord shapes for Canadee-i-o. I believe that it is in C-Modal ( or Seven Yellow Gypsies, for that matter)


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 12:09 PM

Neil - I'd love to know the tuning and chord shapes for Canadee-i-o too. A good friend, Lee Collinson, used to do a lovely version of it but I haven't seen him for a while and can't remember the tuning he used. I worked out a passable version in EADEAE and normally work in DADGAD but I don't think Nic's was in either of those tunings.

All the best,

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Neil Comer
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 12:26 PM

Thanks, anyway!!


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: clare s
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 01:08 PM

Nic played Canadee-I-O in C-G-C-G-C-D

I've got some tab somewhere, that I found in a newsgroup ages ago - I don't think it's all that accurate. Let me know if your interested and I can mail it to you.

Is posting tab here generally seen as OK or not?

Clare


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Neil Comer
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 02:01 PM

I am extremely interested. I'll presume that posting tab is ok until someone tells me otherwise.

Address: 10 Curraghmore Pk Glenullin Garvagh COLERAINE Co. Derry N. Ireland BT51 5DX

I will gladly reimburse any postal costs. If you can do this by E-mail, it would be better, but I have no idea how, unless by attachment Cheers Go dté tú slán


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Doctor John
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 02:50 PM

Clare S: Yes THE best and I've been collecting this stuff for 40 years! Don't forget "In Search of Nic Jones" and there another CD from the family due in the future. Watch the sites! Willie-O: Wasn't John Wesley Harding and outlaw or something!!! John C: We all know the who and where! Neil: Mike Raven is a really nice guy and has lots of interesting material for sale. McMoo: It may be a waste of time I regret to say. Nobody (and that includes the Jones family) can understand why the recordings remain unreleased as their release would benefit everybody, including the Joneses; and C_ M_ for that matter. There has been much discussion of all this in the press (including an article in a Sunday newspaper)and many confusing letters. I've put the odd challenge on the Mudcat myself. There's another Nic Jones track on "Ballads" from Fellside. Well worth buying as most of the other tracks are excellent. I'm sure we all wish the family all the best. Dr John


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Neil Comer
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 03:09 PM

Clare- I suppose an E-mail address would be helpful!!! Neil@Comer3.netlineuk.net


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: john c
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 05:20 PM

I like the idea of writing en masse to Celtic Records to get Nics old stuff rereleased. Anybody got any ideas how to set about it and how to get in touch with them? John.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: lamarca
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 05:41 PM

I have all of Nic Jones' old Trailer/Leader albums on vinyl, and wouldn't part with them for the world. "Banddogs" is one of my all-time favorite albums! The combined efforts of Nic Jones, Pete and Chris Coe and Tony Rose is a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

Don't forget Nic's number on "The Transports", Poor Fellows - one of Peter Bellamy's more inspired songs sung deliciously.

Fellside released a sampler album on vinyl that I think was done as a benefit for him. Called "Flash Company", it had numbers by the cream of Fellside's recording artists: Gerry Hallom, Jez Lowe, Linda Adams, Martin Carthy and many others. It also had a track of Nic singing "The Warlike Lads of Russia". (It sometimes seems to me that The Black Family learned half their repertoire from Nic and the other half from Archie Fisher...) I don't know if it's been re-released on CD (my copy's on vinyl again), but it's well worth having, especially if Fellside is still donating part of the proceeds to Nic and his family!


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: clare s
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 05:47 PM

Appealing as the idea of bombarding Celtic Music (not Records) with letters may sound, I'm afraid that it's almost certainly futile.

Celtic Music still claim to have 'lots' of vinyl copies of the albums which they need to sell first. This isn't true, I've tried really hard to get hold of the vinyl and can't. (There was a big discussion of this in Folk Roots letter page a while back)

For whatever reason, the head of Celtic Music (forget his name off hand - but will look it up if anyone wants to know) just seems to be a incredibly mean and miserable sod.

I had a chat with my nearest 'folk specialist' record shop (Decoy, Manchester) about this.

From what I was told, Mr Celtic Music is probably less likely to consider releasing the records if lots of people pester him to do so. He's apparenty fairly rich anyway and won't 'be told what to do'

The guy in the record shop pointed out that this was probably because he's from Yorkshire - I had to point out that Kate Rusby and Eliza Carthy are too...

Yes, it's totally unfair and unjust - but unless anyone with a huge amount of money offers to buy the catalogue, I guess we're stuck with it

Clare

Unless we did bootlegs and sent the profits to Mollie Music...


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From:
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 06:03 PM

Lamrca,

Can I have your Nic Jones records if I offer you two worlds? I'll through Mars and Venus in for free?


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: JamesBerriman
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 07:03 PM

I'll see your Mars and Venus and raise you a constellation.

( :-]) James


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Sunley
Date: 18 Jan 00 - 09:48 PM

Some points: Credit to Harry Robertson for 'humpback' and 'potstove' was only omitted from the vinyl album of Penguin Eggs. On the CD those 2 tracks and 'farewell to the gold'(P.Metsers) is attributed.

W.Harding has a rather nice web site of his own with lyrics but i don't think any tabs. It is here

All Nic's songs would fit a single CD in mp3 at 128, possibly even at 256 quality. But would folk sent the dollars (lots) to the Jones??

Trivia: Kate Rusby's staring eye on 'Hourglass' is remarkably similar to Nic Jones' staring eye on the back cover of 'Penguin Eggs'


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: john c
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 02:13 AM

Bootlegging is wrong, morally reprehensible, and totaly illegal.......so Ive always thought. But, there again, the copying of records IS allowed for private use and in this case entirely justified. If we made it a point of honour (and its patently obvious that most Mudcatters are a very honourable lot) to send a fitting contribution to the Joneses, this could be a very fair solution to the problem. All wed need to know is the address for the contributions and have an agreement to reimburse each other for whatever costs we have. Most of us have personal pages, so it doesnt all have to be done openly. Could be Im treading on pretty thin legal ice here. Let me know what you think.

John.

P.S. Ive got a copy of his second record ``Nic Jones´´ in front of me this very minute!!


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: GeorgeH
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 10:39 AM

Sorry, JenEllen, I wasn't meaning to criticise you, just to point out that this has all been discussed at length elsewhere (and you should see the names some of us were called for supporting Nic's interests in those arguments) - sorry I gave the wrong impression.

As for all approaching Celtic Music - total waste of time and effort. Since most of those contributing here clearly haven't been following uk.music.folk in recent weeks I'm copying into the rest of this message a posting there from Pete Coe; it appears in a thread re-titled to

Re: Leader/Trailer (Was: Re: ethnic flagellation)

and is dated 14th Jan 2000. Backshift is Pete's own record label, by the way, and DB is Dave Bulmer, owner of Celtic Music. If you want more on the sordid CM saga then the parent thread is of some interest, including comments from Dick Gaughan who knows more about it than most.

G.

>>Are you reading this, Mr Coe??

>Yes, I've also been trying to do something about it. >Three years ago I offered to lease the Bandoggs album >from CM, rerelease it on Backshift & pay all royalties & >profits to Nic. Remember this was well before the >release of 'In search of Nic Jones' & seemed to me, Chris >Coe & Tony Rose a good way of helping Nic & Julia >financially. The offer was turned down flat by DB himself >'I'm not splitting up the catalogue'. I asked >about the possibility of also including the 2 Pete & >Chris Coe albums & leasing all 3. Same answer. However I >was told by DB that if I guaranteed to buy a number of >P&CC albums that we'd go to the top of CMs rerelease >schedule. This offer I declined, & maybe other former >Leader/Trailer artists should take note. I do not want >any of the albums I've recorded rereleased by CM. I do >not wish to be associated with a record company which has >been on the Musicians Union blacklist for years

& has deprived Nic Jones & others from income. I will not be purchasing any of my CM rereleases to sell on gigs, not even one for my own reference. There, that should put me to the bottom of his list! -- Pete Coe


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: GeorgeH
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 10:53 AM

F*** forgot I was typing in an HTML editor window AGAIN! Sorry about the lack of line breaks in the last post . . but you can see what it says.

But someone asked "is anyone still doing stuff like Nic?" which really begs the question of what aspect of Nic you're looking for . . Like JenEllen, I'd say Kate Rusby is a good start; her "Annan Water" is a VERY good interpretation of Nic's version though I think she says she learnt it from Dave Burland (who probably learnt it from Nic). Like Jen I do find most of her recordings somewhat uneven; but the outstanding one is her first recording as an album, the duo with Kathryn Roberts.

No-one can reproduce Nic and his guitar work; fortunately few would be foolish enough to try. If you're looking for people who treat (largely English) folk song with respect mixed with restrained originality I'd nominate (today's list; tomorrow's might differ):

Dave Burland (but his output is sometimes uneven)

Pete Coe

Tony Rose

If you'll accept a touch more originality at times then I'd add June Tabor and (on his less-blues non-instrumental recordings, such as the excellent "Live") Martin Simpson.

All of whom recognise Nic as an influence AND (as I recall) all of whom have worked with Nic in the past.

G.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Doctor John
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 01:50 PM

I'd add to that, George,:-

Martyn Wyndham Read Jezz Lowe (altho most of his material is his own composition in a trditional style - whatever that means!) Martin Carthy & daughter John Kirkpatrick Johnny Handle (probably semi retired)

I concur with your comments about Dave Burland - a wonderful singer and guitar player (and a warm personality) but some dreadful choice of material and arrangements. Buy the LP's, record the material you like and then sell them again!

Add The Kerrs (mother and daughter) James Fagin Gordan Tyrall Christine Kidd Isla StClair (female version of Dave Burland!) + others I can't recall

I don't think those who enjoy good interpretation of tradition music would like June Tabor (Maddy Prior at times perhaps) : some very non traditional stuff and non traditional styles.

Dr John


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: GUEST,margaret
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 08:38 PM

(Would anyone be willing to fill me in on the Carthy/Simon thing?)


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: lamarca
Date: 19 Jan 00 - 09:25 PM

This is my understanding of the Paul Simon/Martin Carthy Scarborough Fair controversy - probably our UK contributors have more detail (and/or accuracy):

In the mid-60's, Paul Simon went over to spend some time in England. During that time he shared a house and/or hung out with English guitarists Davey Graham and Martin Carthy, among others. Carthy was working on his early albums for Topic, and had worked out a stunning guitar arrangement for "Scarborough Fair", a variant of the traditional Child ballad #2, "The Elfin Knight". Simon learned Carthy's arrangement from him, almost note for note.

When he got back to the USA, Simon took Carthy's guitar arrangement and word set for "Scarborough Fair", added a second song of his own composing ("Canticle") and released the whole work, copyright Paul Simon, without crediting Carthy's arrangement. He also recorded Davey Graham's "Angi" on the same album, giving Graham credit for Graham's original composition. If you want to give Simon the benefit of the doubt, maybe he thought that since "Scarborough Fair" was a traditional song, he didn't have to credit Carthy - but seeing as he lifted Carthy's non-traditional guitar arrangement, that doesn't excuse him, in my mind...

It all gets back to issues of copyright on traditional or public domain material - when is a particular arrangement or rendition unique enough to deserve a copyright in the eyes of the legal system? Not being a lawyer, I can't answer that - but I feel that artists like Martin Carthy who develop particular musical arrangements of traditional material deserve the right to copyright protect their creative additions. You can't (or shouldn't) be able to copyright a ballad that's been existant since the 1500's or before, but if you orchestrate it, or write a novel accompaniment, or score it for 73-voice choir, you should be able to copyright your arrangement. Simon had every right to copyright "Scarborough Fair/Canticle" as a new work interweaving the two songs, but I think that he owes something to Carthy for using his guitar part.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: GeorgeH
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 04:18 AM

lamarca: a couple of minor additions: The Carthy/Simon dispute went to court and was decided in Carthy's favour (he says the settlement paid off his mortgage; given that his house was fairly modest this clearly wasn't a vast sum). And more significantly, Carthy insists (and I don't know anyone who knows the man who doesn't accept this) that he ONLY took action because Simon was attempting to claim copyright in a traditional song.

And Dr John I can assure you that many who "enjoy good interpretation of tradition music" love June Tabor; in that part of her repetoire where she performs Trad (in its folk rather than jazz meaning) straight she does so better than anyone else mentioned here. Of your list I'd certainly agree with Martyn W-R and Johny Handle, probably with Nancy Kerr and James Fagin (only that's moving away from solo interpretation) but feel less happy with the others (Carthy live I'd agree, but I find many of his recent recordings have similar shortcomings to Dave Burland's).

G.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: JohnL
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 10:23 AM

I ordered In Search of Nic Jones direct from Mollie Music, 52 Newland Park Drive, York YO10 3HP and asked about buying a tape for a friend. Mrs. Jones sent me a spare colour proof of the CD cover to use, with a note saying that they didn't have it on tape, so I'd have to be a good friend and tape it. I don't think you'd find EMI doing that! Does anyone know who owns the rights to Nic's back catalogue? Perhaps we could start a campaign to get them reissued – their unavailability really is a scandal.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 10:59 AM

GeorgeH - Many thanks for the background information concerning discussions in uk.music.folk on this subject. Not having been resident in the UK for many years, I haven't been following the debate in this newsgroup.

Maybe it's futile to lobby Celtic Music en mass, but believing in the direct approach to things I still feel inclined personally to write to them on the subject as a simple member of Joe Public and as one whose copy of Penguin Eggs has long since perished and whose copies of other Nic Jones vinyls are showing signs of soon giving up the ghost. I will post a thread here on any response I get (if indeed I get one!).

All the best,

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 11:15 AM

Lamarca, have you been through my vinyl collection? I'd forgotten about Flash Company, and I played it to death for about 3 years not so long ago! See, when you move house, you box stuff up and never see it again.....

Off now to see if I can dig it out of the cellar.....

LTS


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Neil Comer
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 12:09 PM

I have a suggestion. Could some good soul,who knows the Joneses ( not me personally, ) contact them and ask them what they think we should do? Should they decide to make recordings etc., well and good, and whoever wants them can send cash.


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: clare s
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 02:44 PM

I've just been on the 'phone Nic and Julia Jones - I'm not really a friend but I 'phoned anyway...

My initial idea - hinted at here - was to swap tapes, home burned CDs, whatever of the 'first 4' albums (accepting that this is techically completely illegal - but in my view morally reasonable) and then send cheques to 'Mollie Music' (Nic and Julia's publishing company) for whatever we felt appropriate.

However, whilst been touched by the thought, Julia does not want this to happen. She likes to play by the book, and didn't like the idea of explaining all these anonymous cheques to the taxman. So please respect her views and lets forget the idea.

She mentioned several things about Mr Bulmer and Celtic Music which she asked me not to repeat here.

What she did say however, is that the one way we can best help is to find someone who knows about bankruptcy law. Julia feels that she owns all the publishing and is unsure whether the Celtic Music takeover was entirely legal. She and Peter Coe are still fighting, but I got the impression that she's getting a bit tired of it.

The good news is that 'In Search Of 2' is on it's way...

Please respect Julia's wishes as regards the above - however cross you are

Hope this is of interest

Clare


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 03:16 PM

Further to James Berriman's question, the "Child" Annan Water may be found on an earlier thread,  here  .Child got it from Walter Scott's Border Minstrelsy.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: clare s
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 04:27 PM

For those who want to know such things - Nic sounded in good spirits

They even asked me for some advice on buying a PC - Nic Jones asking me for advice!

I't probably doesn't mean much to most of you - and I should be too old for this sort of thing - but it's my favourite moment of this year so far

Clare


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 04:57 PM

John or Clair - If any of us in the USA were to send away for a CD from the Jones how much would they want? I'll bet a lot of us would rather give our money directly to the artist than to some corporation. Do they have the capability of accepting our checks drawn on american banks or would we need to convert to pounds first?? And what wiuld they have available?? Thanks


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Subject: RE: Nic Jones
From: lamarca
Date: 20 Jan 00 - 04:59 PM

Thank you, Clare, for calling the Jones' and for the update.

Nic Jones was one of the first British folk revival artists I "discovered" when I was first looking for recordings of ballads and songs done in a more traditional style than by my rock favorites, Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span. I live in the USA, and finding British vinyl was difficult in the early 80's. After buying "Banddogs" just on spec, I went back and bought every one of Nic's albums that I could find. I recently got "In Search of..." and am happy that there will be a volume 2! He was and always will be my favorite singer/guitarist/fiddler doing the "Old Songs"; his arrangements were beautiful, and he drew you into the song and let the story shine through.

My best wishes to both Nic and his wife; I hope that they know of the support and admiration that has been expressed here.


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