medieval song 'men and boys' (closed)

Subject: medieval song 'men and boys'
From: leeneia
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 04:52 PM

I'm looking for lyrics that I've seen on the Mudcat. (Search seems to be down.) It's not in the DT under "Men and Boys."

The song I seek is a medieval song about men and boys in a monastery celebrating Christmas. It appeared in a collection published about 1561, and the collection is famous. The book has "Gaudete" in it, and also the tune later used for "Good King Wenceslas." The collection has a Latin name which I cannot remember right now.

I'm pretty sure the first three words of the lyrics were "Men and boys."

Can anybody find the thread that discussed this song and provided the lyrics?

If this takes some days and this thread goes away, please PM me.

Subject: RE: medieval song 'men and boys'
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 08:10 PM

The tune of "Wenceslaus" is "Tempus adest floridum" from the Piae Cantiones of 1582. I don't have a copy of the Piae Cantiones, but it ought to be on the internet somewhere; you'll presumably find the text there.

Note that a 1582 date is not medieval. Nor is 1561. I suppose you could argue that that's nitpickery, but it isn't -- the point I'm trying to make is that you are unlikely to find the text in a book of medieval lyrics. It would most likely be in a book of Renaissance lyrics.

Subject: RE: medieval song 'men and boys'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 22 - 10:19 PM

Hi, Bob Waltz. Nice to see you here.

Leeneia, you might enjoy the section on Piae Cantiones in www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com.

The Mudcat thread you're seeking is Lyr Req: men and boys (sing for joy?) - it's about the Christmas song "Personent Hodie."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: medieval song 'men and boys'
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 13 Nov 22 - 08:20 AM

To Joe Offer: I'm only here intermittently, when I have time or when something really bugs me. :-)

But to respond to the thread, we should be clear that "Personent Hodie," although the tune is from the Piae Cantiones, is not the tune for "Wenceslas." The Oxford Book of Carols has "Personent Hodie" (#78), with arrangement by Gustav Holst and an English translation by John A. Parkinson; it does not begin with "men and boys." (And should not, since "Personent Hodie" opens by referring to children singing, not adults.)

So if the song meant is not "Tempus adest floridum," I don't know what it is.

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I clarified the language in her post so it's less likely to lead people astray. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: medieval song 'men and boys'
From: Reinhard
Date: 13 Nov 22 - 10:33 AM

Leeneia wrote that the book she was thinking of also included the tune later used for Good King Wenceslas, not that Personent Hodie were that tune.

"Men and boys" is a phrase from one of the English translations of Personent Hodie, though from the fourth stanza, and not the beginning of the song.

Third, it's true that Piae Cantiones being published in 1582 has the publishing date during Renaissance and not the Middle Age. But it is a collection of late medieval Latin songs.

Subject: RE: medieval song 'men and boys'
From: GUEST,Robert B. Waltz
Date: 13 Nov 22 - 11:12 AM

Reinhard: Leeneia wrote that the book she was thinking of also included the tune later used for Good King Wenceslas, not that Personent Hodie were that tune.

Having re-read Leeneia's post, I think it can be interpreted either way, since there are pronouns with unclear references, but since your interpretation gives something more factually correct, I will agree that you read it more accurately than I did. :-)

I'll still (mostly) stand by my second point, though. In my experience, when songs from the Piae Cantiones are filed by age, they tend to be filed among Renaissance, not Medieval, works. Sure, they're Latin, and sure, some are pre-1500, but it's not really possible to prove it in most cases, so people go with the safe date. :-) And while the Reformation brought in a lot of vernacular hymns, not everyone reformed all at once. :-)

Subject: RE: medieval song 'men and boys'
From: leeneia
Date: 13 Nov 22 - 04:23 PM

Here's something interesting from the site Hymns and Carols of Christmas:

"This happy 15th or 16th century Latin carol is probably a parody of an earlier medieval song beginning 'intonent hodie voces ecclesie' in honour of St Nicholas, the patron saint of Russia, sailors and children - to whom he traditionally brings gifts on his feast day, 6 December. The parody may have been written for Holy Innocents' Day, a day when choristers and their boy bishop ruled the choir and displaced the senior clergy from their stalls. The tune which accompanied it in the 1582 Finnish Piae Cantiones manuscript was possibly that of the earlier song as a very similar melody is found in a 1360 manuscript from Moosburg, Germany. The English translation used today is by James [sic] M. Joseph."


I like early music, but I rarely get as far back as "similar to" 1360. When I was growing up in Milwaukee, a lot of kids woke up on Dec 6 and found candy in their shoes. Not in my family, alas.

I still would like to see the older Mudcat thread about this song, the thread that probably has "men and boys" in its title.

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Leeneia - As I said in the third message in this thread, click here for the thread you seek.
This thread is going around in circles, so I'm closing it.