BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 05:45 PM

"The freeze on tax thresholds is nothing short of criminal."

All thresholds?

They were already frozen until 2025/26. Hunt has extended that freeze until 2028. That might well change of course depending on circumstances and/or a change of government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 08:28 PM

I have nothing against freezing or bringing down the thresholds for higher earners. But freezing those AND the one that hits the lowest earners is what Tories do. All in it together, remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 01:26 AM

Our resident cap-doffing, forelock-tugging Tory-apologists are noticeable by their absence. Wonder why they’re not here explaining to the simple folk why the contents of *unt’s Autumn Statement will be good for us all? Could it be, perhaps, that even they are getting a little tired of taking it up the arse from their masters?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 04:14 AM

One thing that is being under-remarked on, in my view, is the daily in the social care funding. In raw budget terms, it is understandable since it is a huge additional cost that we are not yet paying.   But: it is very well known that one of the big problems with the NHS 'efficiency' is the number of NHS hospital beds occupied with people who cannot be discharged as there is no person or organisation to care for them. If you really want to improve the efficiency of the NHS, one of the biggest single things you could do is invest in social care.

One more remark on NHS efficiency - and efficiency in general, come to that. A friend I had worked in NHS admin and part of her job was consolidating notes from various sources. She was hauled over the coals and eventually sacked because she was too slow and did not meet the daily average of others in the office, most of whom highlighted a section of notes and then copy and pasted it into the combined document. As a result they processed many times the amount she did.

Now to the related story. A friend of my wife broke her left arm and they decided she needed an MRI scan. After around three weeks she turns up and they are all ready to scan her left wrist. She objects, pointing out it is her right arm in the sling. No, the notes say they need to scan he wrist. If, however, she signs to say she is refusing treatment ... No way, she says, I am not having "refused treatment" in my notes.


What is happening here is that in the drive for 'efficiency' the wrong thing is being measured, and 'effectiveness' is being lost. The two are three seconds saved by not checking whether the notes were being pasted into the right person's notes (which is what I suspect went wrong)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 04:15 AM

... have been more than paid for with faulty appointments wasting the time of many more, more expensive staff and equipment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 10:54 AM

It's an old problem, DMcG: Local optimisation is always easier than the global sort. If you can't measure the important thing, find something you can measure, which may or may not be related, and call that important.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 11:18 AM

But: it is very well known that one of the big problems with the NHS 'efficiency' is the number of NHS hospital beds occupied with people who cannot be discharged as there is no person or organisation to care for them. If you really want to improve the efficiency of the NHS, one of the biggest single things you could do is invest in social care.

Yes, the hospitals need somewhere to discharge patients to avoid bed-blocking.
The ideal would be 'cottage hospitals', or 'respite centres'!
Unfortunately, they're gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 11:47 AM

Social care is generally in the remit of the local authority. It does tend to get more complex than that of course. If the social care is required for a long term illness, such as dementia (I have gone through the process with both my late parents) the NHS will fund it. By derestricting the amount that the local authorities can raise their council tax, Hunt has introduced an additional tax that I am sure he will state has nothing to do with him and everything to do with the local authority in question. We all know of course that shifting the responsibility to the local authority is simply a way of cutting down on what central government spends. It remains to be seen whether this will be good or bad for health care but one thing is sure. We will all pay more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 12:49 PM

By derestricting the amount that the local authorities can raise their council tax,

The possible rise in council taxes has not been 'derestricted', the cap on possible rises has been raised. There is still going to be a restriction of 5% (So council taxes will not even rise in line with inflation, without needing a referendum)
The fact that councils are permitted to charge more does not automatically mean that all council taxes will now rise to meet the new cap.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 03:34 AM

Unison president Andrea Egan expelled from Labour Party

Does not seem to have had much coverage in the MSM.

Don't know how many people Labour employ to read through social media postings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 04:17 AM

The fact that councils are permitted to charge more does not automatically mean that all council taxes will now rise to meet the new cap.

Hahahahahahahahahanahaha

Oh, and

Hahaha

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 05:44 AM

I thoroughly dislike the term "bed-blocking" and refuse to use it. Those people who can't be discharged because the care system is broken are completely blameless. If anyone is "blocking" hospital beds it's the bloody Tories and their shameful policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 02:27 PM

Steve, go ahead and blame the Tories if you wish. But whose government closed the cottage hospitals?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 03:30 PM

Well I've said several times before that I hold no candle for the New Labour years. But, twelve years on, shall speak as we find?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 02:57 AM

Maybe that should be 40 years on, maybe more, shall we speak as we find. Successive governments have ignored this problem, preferring to leave it for the 'next lot' to try and sort. Meanwhile the problem just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

One day, perhaps, a government will decide to try and do something about it. One day, perhaps, the population will agree on a way to fund it and the best way to use that fund. I doubt that is going to happen within the next few years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 04:31 AM

The last twelve years because the NHS and care sector are in a far worse state now than they were twelve years ago. A&E, waiting lists, waiting times, access to GPs... There are plenty of wrinklies like me whose adverse experiences abundantly attest to the unacceptable decline. Tory ideology has been opposed to the NHS right from the get-go in the 1940s and nothing has changed. Know thine enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 05:45 AM

Interesting and purely factual analysis here

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

Interesting graphic towards the end labelled "Changes in UK public spending on health"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 06:17 AM

Yep, the two graphs at the bottom spell out nicely the Tory attitude to the NHS.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 06:36 AM

74 years since the start of the NHS and it is still with us. 74 years in which the Tories have been in government for the majority of that time. 74 years and the NHS is one of the biggest employers in the world.

I think we can all agree that things could be better. That will mean that more needs to be spent by all of us. We need a sensible conversation about that.

The system itself also needs looking at. So far I have had little need of the NHS for myself. Between 2015 and 2018 my mother did. In the last 2 years of her life she had more ambulance trips to A&E and stays in hospital. I spent a lot of that time in the hospital with her, in A&E waiting for treatment and then a move onto a ward. When on the ward, I and another brother spent time with her outside of normal visiting hours, assisting at mealtimes. You do see a lot and it was a wake up call.

There are no easy solutions. Most people don't want to think about social care problems until it affects them personally. Growing old is not for the faint hearted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 07:01 AM

74 years during which the Tories have not dared to scupper the NHS, a move that would consign the Tories to the dustbin of history where they belong. Over the last twelve years they have been doing it by stealth. The problems now caused by chronic underfunding (see graphs) are put down by Tories to "top-heavy bureaucracy" and "inefficiencies." They want the public to gradually fall out with the NHS, then they can do what they like with it. Like I said, know thine enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 07:54 AM

A lovely example of how to lie with statistics. That graph, here's the link again;

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

does not show spending on the NHS. It shows INCREASE of spending on the NHS.

Decrease in spending is when the graph goes below the base line. It shows three very short instances when this happens. Between 1950 and 1960, the late 1970s and mid to late 1990s. The last one was definitely a Labour Government. The second one is difficult to tell. Government went between Harold Wilson for Labour and Ted Heath for Conservatives and the graph isn't accurate enough to determine who was in power at the time of that dip.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 11:50 AM

This marks the migration of the Brexit & other UK political thread over into a new shorter (for now) thread to spare the Mudcat server from those times when people load the entire old long thread. And it should be helpful for people on tablets and phones (and please note - when looking at the main Mudcat loading page - click on the 123o small blue number means only the 50 most recent posts load in descending order, not the entire thread).

A few of the most recent posts from that old thread will be moved here for continuity (if this thread can ever be accused of that). Here is the original thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 02:20 PM

There won't be an exact correlation between health-service funding and changes in Government: policy decisions can be timed to take effect in the next parliament. But I knew trouble was ahead many years ago, when I read the observation that bed occupancy was about to go over 90%, and that that correlates with hospital-acquired infections going Whoomph.

.... I'm finding it difficult to read this thread about the NHS being slowly strangled. I suffer from earworms, and I've just come another thread which started "Buddy Can You Spare A Dime" running around in my head.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 02:13 AM

Stanron, that is exactly why the title is CHANGES in spending. Which is how I reported it. No lie at all. Now, bear in mind that to keep pace with costs, spending must increase every year. It is a perfectly factual representation of how different governments react to that spending. Just what is this lie that you are talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 06:11 AM

One example of a lie is calling a 'smaller increase' a 'cut'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 06:34 AM

Indeed, DtG. Context is all, and in this case includes wage inflation, and the inflationary effects of health insurance in the USA on the price of medicines this side of the puddle. Re the latter, we've seen an exactly similar problem here with vets' bills: if the insurance company pays at the point of use, expensive treatments become financially viable for the vet to offer, and they get into the habit of charging through the nose for everything.

Methinks I've commented before about the difference between efficiency and effectiveness, but (from another context): "Programs which are designed to be efficient are hell for those who have to provide the input or use the output."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 06:37 AM

I'd say "a cut in real terms", Stanron, or "a stealth cut" if I'm in a feisty mood.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 07:24 AM

One example of a lie is calling a 'smaller increase' a 'cut'.

I disagree on that point, Stanron, as an increase in funding that is less than the increase in costs is effectively a cut. But that is beside the point. Where in the linked article does it refer to the smaller increases as cuts? How are the facts portrayed lies? Just where in the article is there "A lovely example of how to lie with statistics."?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 09:01 AM

D the G posted;

Where in the linked article does it refer to the smaller increases as cuts? How are the facts portrayed lies? Just where in the article is there "A lovely example of how to lie with statistics."?

Who said that the lie was in the stats? I was talking about using the stats to support lies like 'Tory cuts to the NHS'. There's plenty of those in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 09:41 AM

Stanron. Your post "A lovely example of how to lie with statistics. That graph, here's the link again..." looks remarkably like you are saying that the graph is a lovely example. If that is not what you meant then apologies for the diversion. Where are the stats used to support lies then? As I said, I would class underfunding as cuts but. if you insist on denyting that we can come up with plenty Tory lies instead. How about https://boris-johnson-lies.com/?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 11:49 AM

“I believe in Brexit, I voted for Brexit, I know that Brexit can deliver, and is already delivering, enormous benefits and opportunities for the country." - Rishi Sunak.

Name those ‘enormous benefits and opportunities’, you greedy, lying moron, name just one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 12:16 PM

Weve taken are cuntry back...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 04:59 AM

Weve taken are cuntry back...

In a sense, in a sense.

Not sure of the date they have in mind, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 10:49 AM

if starmer really believes this pro-brexit nonsense how long before he starts deselecting, or expelling us remainers? he could take the chance of getting rid of the socialists still hanging around

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 01:51 PM

What strange times we are living in.

Nigel Farage Has Praised Keir Starmer's Speech On Immigration


"Today, Keir Starmer says we must stop the reliance on cheap foreign labour, start training our own people.

“What with that, and saying the House of Lords must be removed in its current shape, Starmer is now repeating the UKIP 2015 manifesto.

“He may not mean any of it, of course, but to think the Labour Party are now to the right of the Conservatives on immigration. That’s where we are, British politics, today.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 02:03 PM

Who, in their right mind, gives a FF what the beer-swilling, chain-smoking man-frog says?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 03:27 PM

So this is Starmer-Tory-not-so-lite so far:

Marginalise the left on the shallowest and most dishonest of pretexts and do your damnedest to prevent their selection in constituencies.

Refuse to consider rejoining the single market/customs union.

Going back on his word on the free movement that he was so keen on during his leadership election campaign.

Going hard on immigration, oh, except when we need veg pickers, and, well, those skilled workers trained in other countries are always welcome, of course...

Rattle on about a "points system." Anyone remember, not too many years ago, how we excoriated the Aussie points system for immigrants for being so blatantly racist?

I'm still a member but I'm seriously considering my position...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 22 - 03:13 AM

Someone close to me has been suspended on the flimsiest of excuses. She is female, disabled, Jewish and, of course, left wing. She had to jump through hoops to be selected as a council candidate for the next locals and was nearly thwarted at the last minute by the right of the local party changing the rules at the last minute but she was selected anyway.

I cancelled my membership when Rebecca Long-Bailey was suspended. Glad I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 22 - 03:52 AM

Staying in the party yet criticising Starmerism at every turn makes me feel like a bloody fifth-columnist. Whilst it doesn't feel anything like the party I joined when Jeremy Corbyn was elected in those days of hope, it still contains lots of us lefties, not many in influential positions of course. Just think: if Starmer ever glanced at this thread, I'd be out on my ear, wouldn't I?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 22 - 04:04 AM

From this morning's Guardian.

Labour event on race issues sidelined leftwing black MPs, claims Abbott

Keir Starmer has been accused of “marginalising” black leftwing Labour MPs after they claimed they were not invited to a crunch event aimed at regaining the confidence of BAME party members.

Diane Abbott described the event as a “PR exercise” and criticised the party for excluding MPs including Clive Lewis, Bell Ribeiro-Addy, Dawn Butler, Florence Eshalomi and Marsha de Cordova.

The event on Saturday, the first of its kind, aimed to ease tensions with black and Asian members after the Forde report found Labour had not done enough to tackle anti-black racism and Islamophobia in the party.

The event did include some black MPs, but they were from the right of the party. A weak man and weak leader trying to bully his way into shaping the party in his own image is certain to end in tears. And watch your back, Diane...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 22 - 10:11 AM

So the net immigration numbers have hit the highest level ever recorded by some margin. There will, of course, be excuses and "reasonable explanations." There always are. I think it's what's called taking back control of our borders, if I remember rightly.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 22 - 07:51 AM

Yet more smoke and mirrors from this bunch of liars and cheats

Immigration claims repeatedly being made based on unpublished data

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 05:05 AM

There will be fewer tax planning opportunities to save Capital Gains tax after 06/04/23 - so:

Make sure you utilise your annual tax-free allowance of £12,300 before 05/04/23. Consider selling assets, shares for example, that can be sold within the tax-free allowance.

If your chargeable gains are likely to exceed the £12,300 limit, are there any assets you can sell at a loss to reduce the total gains below the tax-free limit? It is no longer possible to sell and buy back shares to facilitate this planning option: the so-called “bed and breakfast” arrangement.

If you are contemplating the sale of your business make sure you have arranged your affairs such that you can claim Business Asset Disposal Relief. This will potentially allow you to make qualifying gains of up to £1m and only pay CGT at 10%.

CGT payable on chargeable disposals after 5 April 2022 and before 6 April 2023 will be due for payment 31 January 2024. If you delay the disposal until after 5 April 2023, any CGT due will be payable a year later, 31 January 2025. Theoretically, you could delay a disposal by one day (from the 5 April 2023 to the 6 April 2023) and it would extend the amount of time you would have to pay the tax by 12 months.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 05:48 AM

Let's hope all the little UK Mudcat capitalists are listening!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:20 AM

Let's hope lefties with second homes and stocks snd shares are listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:32 AM

Why would lefties have second homes and stocks and shares? As you know, property is theft! :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:52 AM

So you've been reading EP Thompson - jolly jolly good.


Why would lefties not have second homes and stocks and shares?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:58 AM

I use only those horrid fruity tea bags, because proper tea is theft.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 07:08 AM

It was Proudhon, as any fule no.

'La propriété, c'est le vol!'

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 07:36 AM

Obviously our Resident Tory-brainwashed Fule didn't no! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 09:37 AM

"Whose spaceship is this?"
"It's mine."
"No, whose is it really?"
"It's really mine. Look: property is theft, theft is property, I stole it, it's mine."

(For bonus marks, name the persons in question.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 09:40 AM

Is that supposed to be funny?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 03:46 AM

Ford Prefect?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 04:34 AM

My first car was a 1955 Ford Prefect which I "shared" with my Mum - had to check the points and plugs weekly so that I could still get 75mph out of it!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 06:39 AM

Our first car, a wedding present, was a white Morris Minor called Mildred (though years before that my Dad had gone through a couple of Ford Anglia three-speed biscuit tins and the first generation Vauxhall Viva - I passed my test in one of those). I spent many a happy weekend removing the Morris Minor cylinder head in order to grind burnt valves. Tappet noise was a very comforting sound after you'd put it all back, I seem to remember. The only special tool needed was a wooden stick with a rubber sucker on the end. There was so much room under the bonnet that you could almost get in and stand next to the engine. I open my Ford Focus bonnet today and I haven't a bloody clue what I'm looking at.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 06:48 AM

I remember our Departmental Land Rover having [snip: seriously long saga] a mismatched power train: the gearbox was expecting an engine with rather higher max revs. It was only just possible, going downhill with no load, to break the speed limit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 06:54 AM

My second car was a Morris Minor, the big end shells would need to be replaced about every 3 months, which I could do in a couple of hours, had to get a reconditioned engine eventually.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 06:57 AM

I had to replace the dashboard clock thingie (with the speedo and fuel gauge) on the Morris. I got one from a scrapyard. Unfortunately, it was a mismatch for our car. The speedo needle went doolally as soon as you drove off so we never knew how fast we were going, and the fuel gauge didn't work, so we never knew how much petrol we had. Bloody good car, that was. Happy days!

We wrinklies could have a lot of fun in a cars-of-yore thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 07:03 AM

On one occasion we drove from London to Exeter with a hole in the radiator. Stones thrown up from the road by the car in front could easily zip through the grille and smash into the delicate fins. We topped it up with cold water every approx 15 miles. No harm done. You try that with a modern car...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 07:19 AM

I am sure we all remember being told before and after the Brexit vote that the UK would be able to forged new trade deals across the globe and be at the forefront of world trade and basically we would live in a land of milk and honey.

Well it would seem that the first major trade deal we negotiated with Japan which we were promised would lead to an increase in trade of £15 billion has proved to be a failure and in fact has led to a decline in trade of some 5%.

As reported in the press today "Minako Morita-Jaeger, a senior research fellow in international trade at Sussex University business school and a policy research fellow of the UK Trade Policy Observatory, said the government had “oversold” the UK-Japan trade agreement and it did not offer significant economic advantages over the previous EU deal. She said the early trade data did not appear encouraging."

Quelle Surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 08:05 AM

Brexit - the gift that keeps on giving…

What was it they were predicting about ‘sunlit uplands’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 08:12 AM

.... And thus we segue seamlessly from old bangers of yore to the England's clapped-out political system and rusted-out economy. At least bangers had trade-in value, or at worst were worth something as scrap metal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 08:13 AM

Apparently all the issues we are having is because remoaners will not get behind brexit. Wonder how that works?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 09:57 AM

Only in the brainwashed minds of those simple-minded enough to fall for the BrexShit Propaganda Campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 10:04 AM

A bit like saying the Holocaust was because Jewish people would not get behind the Nazis' Final Solution??????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 11:53 AM

SPB - :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 01:25 PM

From The Guardian

Keir Starmer rules out return of free movement between Britain and EU

"Starmer also ruled out a “Swiss-style” deal with the EU, which would allow access to the single market but require more generous immigration rules, after reports the government was considering such an arrangement prompted frantic denials from No 10.

He told the Mail on Sunday: “A Swiss deal simply wouldn’t work for Britain. We’ll have a stronger trading relationship and we’ll reduce red tape for British business – but freedom of movement is a red line for me. It was part of the deal of being in the EU but since we left I’ve been clear it won’t come back under my government.”

He added: “Ripping up the Brexit deal would lead to years more wrangling and arguing, when we should be facing the future.”"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 01:31 PM

apparently starmer has ruled out a return to freedom of movement in europe. well, f*ck you, tory boy. in these days we need a bit of hope. it wouldn't be so be bad if we there was a chance that they were just pretending and the next labour government meant some moves back towards common sense, europe, renationalisation etc but he doesn't seem like the devious type.
but what happened to labour party conference? surely he wouldn't get this past by the party?
i'm always a socialist and still in the party - mostly because of my (cat smith anti-anti-corbyn) mp and angela rayner. and what else is there? but come on labour - throw us something we can be positive about. erasmus? pet passports?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 04:29 PM

I'm a socialist and I'm still in the party. I completely share your frustration. I think there's a massive danger of Labour losing the next election. Absolutely the wrong person at the helm. I really want to be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 03:13 PM

Presume whoever wrote this doesn't mind it being pinched!

T'was the night before Christmas, and all through the nation,
There was misery, poverty and great deprivation,
Some stockings were empty, some fridges were bare,
The heating turned off, little money to spare.
Rishi Sunak was cosy, a quaffing champagne,
Cognac and Port so he’s feeling no pain,
Stuffing his chops on goose flesh and gammon,
Caviar, Stilton and the finest smoked salmon.
The homeless are shivering in cardboard containers,
Ex-Servicemen, youngsters, both Leave and Remainers,
The nurses and doctors all still searching for beds,
With a shortage of staff, of money and meds.
The Moggs singing carols with moguls and bankers,
Hedge funders, financiers and various wankers
,
Admiring his baubles and pulling his crackers,
Rejoicing that he's got us all by the knackers.
Your Gran's in the corridor, still on the trolley
While the Chancellor's counting the last of his lolly,
And Grandad’s in pieces, stemming his tears,
Though they’ve paid their dues these past sixty years
But hey, Goves on the sherry and is quite off his tits,
While his missus is battered and doing the splits,
And Drunken Smith is a singing along with the Pogues,
With the rest of the mob and a few Russian rogues.
And the kids who are dreaming of gifts in the morning,
Won’t get them- their benefits were stopped without warning,
While those whose dosh is in off-shore accounts,
Will be rubbing their hands as the grand total mounts.
And the Waspi woman alone in her kitchen,
Has long given up on Dancer and Blitzen,
She was robbed of her pension, they don’t give a shite,
That she’s freezing and hungry on Christmas Eve night.
And now, here’s the end of this so festive story
Dont forget, STOP VOTING TORY.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 04:33 PM

From The Guardian

Thurrock council admits disastrous investments caused £500m deficit

Another council who borrowed money when rates were low and then lost it in poor investments. Governments, both national and local, are not good at spending public money.

With the rise in interest rates there will probably be more councils running into problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 04:47 PM

thurrock council are feckin winkers

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 06:01 PM

https://www.croydonconservatives.com/news/revealed-true-scale-croydon-labours-toxic-financial-mismanagement

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 06:19 PM

Four councils, Croydon, Slough, Northamptonshire and Thurrock have gone insolvent in recent months.

2 Labour controlled and 2 Tory controlled.

I wonder who was doing their accounts. I think Croydon & Thurrock each have debts of over £ 1.5 billion. Nothing like wasting other peoples money.

The value of your investment might go down as well as up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 22 - 05:07 AM

when the first dartford toll tunnel was built, the rate payers of essx and kent had to pay extra to pay for the building of the tunnel in theory the tunnel belonged to to essex and kent rate payers,
somehow the tunnel was privatised .
i have a recollection that mrs thatchers husband was a director of a firm that got the contract to build the bridge and or the second tunnel, the toll tunnel is now owned by a private company, even though the first tunnel was partly financed by the rate payers of thurrock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 22 - 12:40 PM

w hat happens to councils that get in to this kind of debt , and how does it happen, do they not have auditors

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 22 - 08:29 PM

Mick Lynch made absolute mincemeat of Mischal Husain in Today a couple of mornings ago. Poor Mishal, a far better newsreader and reporter than she is an interviewer. But Mick was spot on. He simply wasn't going to accept the blatant anti-union establishment stance of the BBC and he tore right through it. Brilliant.

Today, we had the estimable Emma Barnett on Womans' Hour ripping into the horrendous, smirking, smug, shitty, disgraceful Tory lying scumbag who is Helen Whately over the nurses' strike. What a bloody treat that was. There isn't much to celebrate these days, but these two buggers are at least fighting the good fight ...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 22 - 08:31 PM

Ach, apostrophe hell - should have gone to Barnard Castle...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 04:09 AM

"w hat happens to councils that get in to this kind of debt , and how does it happen, do they not have auditors"

The dire financial mismanagement by the extremely corrupt labour Croydon council will take years to rectify.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 06:30 AM

I shall repeat Rain Dog's post of 29 Nov

Four councils, Croydon, Slough, Northamptonshire and Thurrock have gone insolvent in recent months.

2 Labour controlled and 2 Tory controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 01:09 PM

Thurrock has debts of 50 million

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 06:12 PM

I wish all selfish and greedy striking workers a most miserable Christmas and a thoroughly bad New Year!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 06:25 PM

I'm sure that you and your good ladies benefits will still come through though Bonzo.............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 06:39 PM

I wish all selfish and greedy bankers, corrupt lady peers (£29 million and counting), corrupt recipients of dodgy PPI deals, corrupt politicians who engineered those deals, parasitic non-doms and other off-shorers a most miserable Christmas and a thoroughly bad New Year.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 02:05 AM

I wonder if any of those whinging that unions are ruining the Christmas holidays realise that they only have Christmas holidays because of the unions. Or that in any dispute, there are two sides. Or that they are being led by the nose by billionaire press barons.

Then I remember how gullible, greedy or uncaring some people are.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 05:46 AM

And as for lynch, what a despicable commie crack he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 06:21 AM

The reporting narrative in the current industrial disputes is set by the Mail/Telegraph axis. Keywords, to be included bigly in every report, are "disruption," "strike," "chaos," picket line," "inconvenience," "delay," "union bosses/barons" (add your own). You might just hear that it's a dispute about "pay and conditions." What you'll have to dig and delve for yourself are the exact reasons for desperate people being forced to lay down their tools. What you won't hear too much of is the 12-year suppression of pay and the rapidly deteriorating working and living conditions of many of the striking workers in a time of high inflation. You won't read about the privations of those withdrawing their labour, the only weapon they have, as they lose hundreds of pounds a week in pay. But you will hear plenty of platitudes and downright lies from ministers about how the paltry offers on the table are "fair and reasonable" which were decided by "independent" pay review bodies (the biggest lie of all). And then, of course, the downright lie that pay settlements above the parsimony currently on the table will "fuel inflation," or "embed inflation in the economy." Well there's already inflation in the economy that has nothing to do with pay settlements, and giving nurses, carers, ambulance drivers and teachers a decent pay rise can't possibly fuel inflation.   You'll hear ministers telling us that they can't intervene in negotiations when, every time they open their mouths, they are intervening. You'll hear some minister or other who's been wheeled out to tell us that the nurses' 19.2% pay demand is "unreasonable and unaffordable," which can't be negotiated, even though we all know that that is merely an opening bargaining gambit and not an all-or-nothing stance. We all know that unions almost always ask for more than they eventually settle for. The government wants us to think that the unions are our enemies-within and that the NHS can't be fit for purpose and should be broken up. They lie to us about the "investment" they've put in (which has been paltry in historical terms for over a decade). For many people who don't spend hours a day studying the political situation, gleaning what they know from the headlines or the first five minutes of the news, it's easy to dismiss them as gullible. The government controls the narrative that invites us to be gullible and most of the media connive in that. We need a damn sight more Mick Lynches articulately and confidently giving us the real, unadorned truth about how we are being manipulated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 07:52 AM

Verbal diarrhoea

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 08:08 AM

Maybe, but we can't stop you from posting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 10:20 AM

”I wish all selfish and greedy striking workers a most miserable Christmas and a thoroughly bad New Year!”
“And as for lynch, what a despicable commie crack he is.”

Stop talking through your arse Bonz, your breath smells.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 10:57 AM

Minor point: however much the Rabid Right bang on about privatising everything (when they mean *pirate*ising, but that's a separate rant), having nationalised industries actually *benefits* them on average. This is based on the observation that there's only one thing a trade-union official hates more than the management, and that's an official of a rival trade union.

Consider:

Suppose the country has five nationalised industries (for suitably general values of five).

Year 1: the nurses (say) get a pay rise above the national average *for that year*. The Govt says to the train drivers etc: We can't afford to give you a pay rise this year because *nurses* .... and inter-union rivalry does the rest.

Year 2: it's the train drivers' turn to get an above-average pay rise ....

At the end of Year 5, all five industries have had one-off pay rises, each of which has been portrayed at the time as inflation-bustingly exorbitant generous, and all of which average out over five years as somewhat less than five yearsworth of inflation.

This of course all breaks down, as we are seeing now in the UK, if there's an extended imposition of austerity: none of the industries in question get a pay rise for long enough that union members' dislike of the Govt overcomes their distaste of other unions.

Let there be flames.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 11:11 AM

Could it be that people who work beyond the statutory age of retirement and well into their 70's are selfish and greedy depriving other younger, needy people of gainful employment

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 12:08 PM

Not at all, they know nothing and are generally stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 04:02 PM

In my case, Raggy, it was simple absentmindedness: I clean forgot I was supposed to retire, until Herself towed me away for the Caribbean cruise that was supposed to celebrate my retirement. It did pad out my pension a tad, which will be selflessly passed on to the next generation once I date-expire completely and/or save them paying for a rest home for me in the meantime.

More generally, older workers aren't selfish, just more expensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 04:14 PM

That argument about older employees keeping jobs away from younger people looking for jobs is a false dilemma (logical fallacy) - suggesting that older employees are taking from other unknown employees when in fact it appears that keeping older people in the work force longer is one way to help counter the problems of a lower birth rate (bringing new younger employees along) and keeping them pulling their own weight longer as far as paying into social services pools that they draw from more heavily than younger people (here in the US those are typically social security and medicare).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 04:50 PM

Could it be that people who work beyond the statutory age of retirement and well into their 70's are selfish and greedy depriving other younger, needy people of gainful employment

The same sort of argument used to be used to keep women in their place, at home, instead stealing jobs from men.

I chose to take early retirement because that is what suited me but, if others feel they have something to offer, they have every right to pursue those goals. Growing old shouldn't turn people into second-class citizens.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 05:35 PM

Absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 03:23 AM

in my opinion, using automation to replace people so private rail companies can make an increased profit and then the state has to provide unemployment money, is a foolish capitalist policy.
When i use rail,particularly late at night i want someone at the ticket office for security and because as a customer i want to make enquiries and use cash or have the choice of cash or card, it is called customer service.
replacing people with machines is treating me as a second class citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 03:59 AM

99...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 04:25 AM

"in my opinion, using automation to replace people so private rail companies can make an increased profit and then the state has to provide unemployment money, is a foolish capitalist policy."

East Croydon has had both ticket machines and a very efficient ticket office for with 6 windows for many years.

Why can't you buy your rail tickets on line?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 05:00 AM

Perhaps, customers are entitled to choice, I want the choice.why should i buy everything on line, what about the people who cannot afford or do not have computers
keep up to date with info bonz, you make statements criticising rail workers for going on strike, but do not appear to be informed about the reasons for striking[ which is not just about pay
East Croydon, might have had six windows that does not mean the private rail companies want to maintain them, and keep them all
you seem uninformed about the rail strike Bonzo, but why should i be surprised at that?I want security on trains a guard and a driver
I want to travel in security and safety on the platforms and on the trains
"Network Rail will start the formal process to lay off up to 1,800 staff at the end of the month, it has told the RMt" quote guardian
I do not think it a good idea that a private company, should lay off 1800 staff, because the state will then have to pay unemployment money, a much better idea is to renationalise the railways

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 05:06 AM

"a much better idea is to renationalise the railways"

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 08:56 AM

The railways are peactically nationalised already Bonzo. The government takes the ticket revenue and then pays the train companies to run the trains, badly in some cases. Some of those train companies then pass on some of that revenue to their shareholders. Does not mske a lot of sense however you look at it.

Third party companies selling tickets just means less revenue for the government or the taxpayer. Again, it does not make a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 09:18 AM

Shareholders invest and expect a return in the form of dividends.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 10:13 AM

Shareholders - investors - skimming the profit (aka working capital) from an otherwise viable business.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 10:17 AM

As I said, Shareholders invest and expect a return in the form of dividends, quite normal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 10:45 AM

Paying dividends comes after ensuring the business has enough capital to run efficiently. Remember shares can go down as well as up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 11:24 AM

It used to be illegal in the US for companies to do the "share buyback" that is so popular now. It needs to be illegal again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 12:04 PM

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 01:01 PM

why not

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 01:42 PM

Because it means the management is not investing the proceeds in the employees and the operation, they're buying stocks back to increase their own compensation. This from the Communication Workers of America:

Stock buybacks are when companies buy back their own stock from shareholders on the open market rather than investing in workers or equipment. When a share of stock is bought back, the company reduces the number of shares left in the market, which raises the price of remaining shares. Company executives have every incentive to buy back stocks, since most of their compensation derives from stock and a higher stock price makes them personally richer.

It hasn’t always been this way. Until 1982, buybacks were considered a form of market manipulation, but a Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) ruling that year gave companies free reign to buy back stocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 01:53 PM

Which in the UK has to be properly disclosed in the accounts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 03:09 PM

SRS: Stock buybacks are when companies buy back their own stock from shareholders on the open market rather than investing in workers or equipment. When a share of stock is bought back, the company reduces the number of shares left in the market, which raises the price of remaining shares. Company executives have every incentive to buy back stocks, since most of their compensation derives from stock and a higher stock price makes them personally richer.

Consider the source. Communication workers of America appears to be a trade union (In effect, if not in name).
Their logic however fails in making the assumption that When a share of stock is bought back, the company reduces the number of shares left in the market, which raises the price of remaining shares.
The logical fallacy here is that the value of the company does not remain the same (to be allocated between all shareholders). The money used to buy-back the shares (on the open market) will only buy those shares if there is no market for them at a higher price. But the cost of those shares bought back reduces the company's assets by the value of those shares. This should not cause a re-evaluation of the remaining shares unless the company has spotted that the shares are undervalued, and is buying for this reason.

If anything company buy-backs show that the company has confidence in its own future, unlike when directors start selling their personal holdings when they can see the company is in difficulty.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 03:15 PM

I chose them because of the source, Nigel. They are directly impacted by the bad behavior of their company management. They understand why stock buybacks are immoral and should be illegal.

Your rendering of the situation is not only wrong, it's crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 04:31 AM

The most recent share buyback announced by BP (BP) of $3.5bn has resulted in the FTSE100 (UK100) members reaching the largest ever aggregate annual cash pay-out in history. In 2022, the members are forecasted to pay out £46.9bn in share buybacks, almost double that seen last year. The top three sectors were energy, financial and consumer staples. BP (BP) and Shell (RDS) were the top two companies, paying out more than the seven runner ups combined.

Excellent news for shareholders, and the treasury also benefits from any Capital Gains Tax payable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 05:14 AM

And he calls the unions greedy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 11:19 AM

and the treasury also benefits from any Capital Gains Tax payable.quote hilarous most of them employ accountants to show them how to avoid paying tax

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 11:28 AM

useless useless lefty idiots.

The government has delayed the introduction of MTD for income tax for landlords and self employed by two years until 2026!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 12:01 PM

Can you tell us what you think without using all of the name calling and slurs, Bonzo? Asking for a friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 02:10 PM

Government ministers have been wheeled out today to tell us on the radio and telly that they won't discuss pay for nurses and ambulance drivers, both of whom are striking on various days, and that the paltry pay offers on the table (about a quarter of inflation, the numbers attached to which are a blatant lie in any case), made by "independent" pay review bodies (independent my arse - they have to abide by the remit of the government) are "fair and reasonable." All that after twelve years of no pay rises or hardly any pay rises.

It's perfectly clear that the Sunak government wants people to die so that we'll come to hate the NHS. It won't work, and what's even more galling is that he's by far the richest prime minister we've ever had, with a non-dom wife who has about £800 million of unearned wealth, thanks to her dad. These people haven't got a bloody clue about ordinary people's struggles. Not a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 04:01 PM

Very true, they do not appear to understand the consumer society either, how can people buy goods and boost the economy if they do not have sufficient money to do so, it is not even efficient capitalism,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 07:46 PM

Do note that no Tory minister is allowed to say "pay review bodies." They have all been briefed to say "independent pay review bodies." The lie of the century. Why, one such Tory apparatchik had to correct himself this morning on the Today programme when he accidentally omitted the word "independent."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 11:46 PM

A real-world, personal friend of mine (a damn fine musician, as it happens) wrote the following elsewhere recently. I think he hits the nail fair and square on the head…

”Getting really fed up with the Gov line that the Pay Review Body is INDEPENDENT. It is not. It works within constraints set by the Gov. It’s Terms of Reference are clear:

“In reaching its recommendations, the Review Body is to have regard to the following considerations:

* the need to recruit, retain and motivate suitably able and qualified staff;

* regional/local variations in labour markets and their effects on the recruitment and retention

* THE FUNDS AVAILABLE TO THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT as set out in the Government’s Departmental Expenditure Limits;

*the Government’s inflation target;”

In other words, the Pay Review Body can only recommend what the Gov says it can afford. And - WHY IS THE BBC NOT REPORTING THIS?”

What he doesn’t mention, but is worth bearing very much in mind, is that the members of the ‘Independent’ Pay Review Body are appointed by the government - not much chance of ‘independence’ there!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 03:46 AM

yes indeed, and of course on examination the BBC is not independent either

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 05:37 AM

The Beeb isn't so much not-independent as just plain scared: they know which side their licence fee is buttered on. Back in the Long Ago when Labour was in power, istr the Beeb getting dumped on for being overly left-leaning .... but methinks that was by the right-wing press. Much depends on who does the examining.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 09:45 AM

Who are the BBC board members?
Image result for bbc board of governors 2022
Members

    Richard SharpChairman.
    Tim DavieDirector-General.
    Shumeet BanerjiNon-executive Director.
    Damon BuffiniDeputy Chair; Chair, BBC Commercial Board.
    Elan Closs StephensNon-executive director; Member for Wales.
    Shirley GarroodNon-executive Director.
    Robbie GibbNon-executive director; Member for England.Who are the top people at the BBC?
Executive Committee

    Tim DavieDirector-General.
    Kerris BrightChief Customer Officer.
    Tom FussellCEO, BBC Studios.
    Charlotte MooreChief Content Officer.
    Gautam RangarajanGroup Director of Strategy and Performance.
    Rhodri Talfan DaviesDirector, Nations.
    Leigh TavazivaChief Operating Officer.
Might i suggest you check out their political back grounds

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 12:21 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWnfW_WSons
you may or may not agree , but aboveis an argument as to why the bbc is not impartial

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 04:40 PM

Further horrors have emerged in Croydon Council’s finances as the true picture of Labour’s toxic legacy became clear in a recent “opening the books” exercise.

In addition to doubling the Council’s debt to a staggering £1.6 billion - which costs around £50 million a year to service - it has now emerged that:

Labour overestimated parking income by £10 million per year, leaving an ongoing black hole in the finances
Labour sold £73 million of council property and quickly spent the money. However, they got the accounting wrong and now £9 million must be repaid
Labour claimed that the refurbishment of Fairfield Halls would come at zero cost to the taxpayer. However, it was so badly managed that the project has cost the taxpayer £70 million – and the roof still leaks
Substantial losses have now been crystallised in Labour’s Brick by Brick developer, into which they pumped £200 million of our money
Labour made numerous accounting and spending errors over time that have now come to light and need to be paid for

As a result of these historic issues, the Council has been forced to issue a Section 114 Notice, meaning that it will be impossible to set a balanced budget next year.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 06:03 PM

I did intend to say something about generals vs poor bloody infantry at the BBC, but the conversation appears to have moved on, so I'll leave it at that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 03:26 AM

Bonzo, a drop in the ocean compared to Conservative controlled Thurrock50 billion in debt.
But the real point is that what ever the party in control, both councils have been very irresponsible

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 04:15 AM

Rattling on repeatedly about Croydon in a UK politics thread may not be completely off-topic, but surely it's a bit parish-pump when set alongside the fact that your party managed to piss £30 billon of our money up the wall in a few short days...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 04:47 AM

Date: 16 Dec 22 - 01:09 PM

Thurrock has debts of 50 million

---- " ----

Date: 22 Dec 22 - 03:26 AM

Bonzo, a drop in the ocean compared to Conservative controlled Thurrock50 billion in debt.


The actual debt lies in between, at just under 500 million, which is outrageous but less than third of Croyden's.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 05:19 AM

To be fair to Bonzo, (though not sure why I should be fair), Croydon has been leading the way. Other councils have followed and I am sure some more will follow in the next few months.

Thurrock have debts of £ 1.5 billion, largely borrowed from the government and other councils. Servicing that debt is costing a lot of money, which has resulted in a deficit of £ 500 million this year.

From The Guardian this week.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/19/thurrock-latest-council-declare-effective-bankruptcy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 05:24 AM

Government intervention into Thurrock Council.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 05:35 AM

There are other councils of all political persuasions struggling to make ends meet and many will fail. The underlying cause is the mismanagement of the economy by the bunch of lying, cheating and corrupt rogues currently in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 08:15 AM

thurrock always brings me a smile. i watched Bath City v Thurrock some years ago. maybe 20 thurrock fans sang - 'it's Th-U-U-rock! Th-U-rock FC - are by far the greatest team the world has ever seen!' Yes, I did meet Ken on the terrace, I wanted to compliment him on the scene in Land and Freedom where the Spanish peasant farmers are discussing whether to collectivise their land. Croydon - on the other hand - has no fond memories for me at all

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 12:45 PM

An individual has won a First Tier Tribunal (FTT) appeal against a demand from HMRC over disputed stamp duty land tax (SDLT) payments

The appellant, Gary Withers, appealed against a closure noticed issued by HMRC, which increased the SDLT due from £114,500 to £212,500.

The notice was issued to Withers over an enquiry into his SDLT return for the acquisition on 31 July 2019 of a house and land located at the property known as Lake Farm, in Kent.

The case concerned whether a home with adjoining grazing and woodland could attract commercial rates of SDLT tax instead of residential rates.

HMRC allowed the appellant’s claim for multiple dwellings relief (MDR) but concluded that the acquisition was of ‘wholly residential property’ and calculated the increased amount of SDLT under s55 of the Finance Act 2003 (FA 2003).

FA 2003 establishes that SDLT tax is chargeable when the relevant land ‘consists entirely’ of residential property.

In respect of the land, HMRC contended that it was entirely appropriate for such a large rural property to include ‘extensive gardens or grounds’ and was eligible as residential property for SDLT purposes.

The appellant argued that the property included non-residential property and, therefore, should have been classed as mixed-use.

Lake Farm was a barn conversion and was advertised as sitting in landscaped gardens. The fields and woodlands were mentioned separately.

Two months before completion, the appellant had signed an agreement with a farmer which gave him permission to graze sheep on 20 acres and to cut hay on a further five acres. This agreement lasted for one year, in return for £800.

The same farmer had grazed sheep at the property on an informal basis continuously for many years. In addition, another part of the property was used as part of a Woodland Trust scheme, a conservation charity.

On 31 July 2019, Withers completed the transaction purchasing the property for £2.5m. On the same date, HMRC received an SDLT return from the appellant.

The property was classified as ‘mixed-use’ on the basis that its land was used for agricultural purposes and the amount of tax self-assessed was £114,500.

On 20 January 2021, HMRC wrote to the appellant citing that the acquisition of the property should have been classed as residential due to the fact that the appellant owned additional properties at the time of its purchase.

In response, the appellant’s agent stated that he owned their previous main residence upon purchasing the property but had sold this in October 2020. They argued that it was pointless for him to pay higher rates on additional dwellings (HRAD).

On 14 April 2021, HMRC issued the closure notice under s10 FA 2003 increasing the SDLT due to £212,500, a difference of £98,000 to the amount self-assessed.

The tax authority stated that as the appellant owned multiple dwellings at the date of the purchase, HRAD was applicable.

Withers argued that the land surrounding Lake Farm had been used for a separate purpose and in a commercial sense, as it had been grazed by a farmer continuously for 20 years.

He also stated that many in the farming community struggled to make a living and that it would be ‘irresponsible’ to charge high rent to a farmer for revenue which would be immaterial to his own income.

Judge Ruhven Gemmell WS said: ‘In respect of HMRC’s submission relating to the ‘use of land’ the tribunal does not accept their submission that it is sufficient that the adjacent land is available to Withers to use as he wishes. The grazing agreement does contain restrictions on his use of the land as set out in his submissions.

‘The tribunal, following a balanced assessment of all the facts, considers that the land surrounding Lake Farm to the extent that it is occupied for grazing and by the Woodland Trust does not constitute gardens or grounds, and therefore, should not be treated as residential property for the purposes of SDLT.’

Accordingly, the appeal was allowed.

Sean Randall, partner at Blick Rothenberg, said: ‘For years taxpayers have argued that where they have a property in the country that has grazing and woodland that any SDLT should be levied on a commercial basis instead of a residential basis.

‘This has led to litigation and HMRC had, until this case, an unblemished record in challenging ‘mixed-use’ appeals. This is the first case where the evidence of separate non-residential use has been sufficient.

‘It is also a good example of the need to consider all the circumstance and to be careful of relying on HMRC’s guidance.’

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 01:37 PM

Gosh, Bonzo, I'd bet that you could write one of those books that once you put it down you can't pick it up again...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 01:51 PM

Lol :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 04:36 PM

Bonzo reminds me Stylistically of Patrick o Brian.
Bonzo is of course creating a Red Herring.or should it be a deep blue Herring

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 03:41 AM

I must be a bit weird because I found the story quite interesting. Particularly the fact that it it the first such case that HMRC has lost. What bonzo has failed to tell us though is that it is not his own work. It looks like a cut and paste from that thrilling publication "Accountancy Daily" :-)

Bad form to pinch someone else's work and not credit them bonzo old chap. Mind you, it is typically Tory...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 03:52 AM

I'm sorry, I didn't "fail" to do anything.

It came from Croner i, who provide daily tax updates. I'm always glad to read about cases lost by HMRC, and tax saved by a taxpayer!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 05:04 AM

You did bonzo. You failed to credit the source. I know your hero Bozzer tries to gaslight everyone but there is really no need to emulate him

But, yes, in cases of genuine overtaxing it is good to see HMRC proved wrong. It is a pity that they don't put their efforts into closing the loopholes that allow the mega corporations to avoid paying what they should

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 05:11 AM

Tax legislation is what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 05:14 AM

Then it needs changing. Nothing is written on tablets of stone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 07:11 AM

We will miss the old Queen's speech, but look forward to the King's speech!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 07:18 AM

"Tax legislation is what it is."

We just need the tax enforcement to go with it. Not much point in the Tories raising taxes if they cannot be bothered to collect them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 07:32 AM

"We just need the tax enforcement to go with it. Not much point in the Tories raising taxes if they cannot be bothered to collect them."

That's what HMRC is for, in case you didn't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 07:52 AM

HMRC work to rules set by the government so it is the government that need to ensure that the rules are fit for purpose. Part of the EU shake up of taxation rules mooted before 2016 was to close the tax loopholes that resulted in the mega rich being able to stash their earnings where HMRC could not get at them. If you have any doubt as to that is why those in power conned people into voting to leave the EU then you need to work on your comprehension skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 08:22 AM

'That's what HMRC is for, in case you didn't know.'

I did know that Bonzo.

It is the government who decide on the resources available to HMRC, in case you didn't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 10:16 AM

And your point is???????????

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 12:17 PM

It's the government who decide on the resources available to "independent" pay review bodies.

Lie no 1: the pay review bodies are independent

Lie no 2: we have to restrict the pay of public sector workers in order to keep inflation down

Watch the news tonight and you'll hear both these lies being blatantly trotted out by Fishi Sunak and/or his lackeys.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 02:08 PM

I think Richie Sunak could become a good appellation :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 05:37 PM

People who cross the channel from France are not genuine asylum seekers and we must send them back or to a third country.

With an energy crisis and war in Ukraine, taxpayers money cannot be spent on supporting thousands of migrants who have come to this country illegally.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 06:11 PM

You must be feeling tired Bonzo. Perhaps you need a lie down?

Might cause a bit of a problem if you sent everyone who crossed the channel back to a third country. Certainly would put an end to any future imports carried by trucks. Might help the balance of payments though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 02:52 AM

Everyone of Viking descent must go back to Scandinavia

Everyone of Norman descent must go back to France

If your ancestors entered the country illegally you do not belong here!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 02:53 AM

Bonzo would you send them to Ukraine? What has caused the energy crisis Bonzo, was it the fault of the asylum seekers, would you send all stray dogs back to a third country?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 03:01 AM

Bonzo what would be the cost TO TAX PAYERS of sending them back to a third country. , would it not be cheaper to send them to croydon CROYDON

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Monique
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 03:22 AM

Please note that Norman meant "North man" and that they were Vikings (Cf. The French History Podcast from Ep.72 and he's not finish yet). If we must all go back to where we started from, I wonder if Africa will cope with 8 billion people and some might be too white for their taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 04:10 AM

You forgot to mention Yorkshiremen, Dave. Send 'em all 'ome then blow up th' M25, I say!

(It would take a Braverman than me to fix it...See what I did there?)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 04:29 AM

It is true, Monique. Thank you :-D

Steve - I'm all for widening the Watford gap and floating the part south east of it elsewhere :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 11:31 AM

Passengers have said they wish the Army could man the borders permanently after airports ran smoothly on Friday in an “embarrassing” blow to striking Border Force workers.

The Government had been braced for disruption as a week-long strike by 1,000 passport staff at six airports began.

Families with young children, who cannot use electronic gates, were expected to bear the brunt of delays at border control, but there was no widespread disruption as travellers arrived home.

Military personnel and civil servants filled in for Border Force at major airports, including Gatwick and Heathrow, with passengers who had expected “carnage” suggesting border checks were quicker than normal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 11:35 AM

The Taliban government on Saturday ordered all foreign and domestic non-governmental groups in Afghanistan to suspend employing women, allegedly because some female employees didn’t wear the Islamic headscarf correctly. The ban was the latest restrictive move by Afghanistan’s new rulers against women’s rights and freedoms.

The order came in a letter from Economy Minister Qari Din Mohammed Hanif, which said that any NGO found not complying with the order will have their operating license revoked in Afghanistan. The letter’s content was confirmed to The Associated Press by the ministry’s spokesman, Abdul Rahman Habib.

The ministry said it had received “serious complaints” about female staff working for NGOs not wearing the “correct” headscarf, or hijab. It was not immediately clear if the order applies to all women or only Afghan women working at the NGOs.

They are as bonkers as trans loving starmer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 12:16 PM

When it comes to bedding, homeowners are probably conscious about cleaning their bed sheets and pillowcases, but the same cannot always be said about their pillows. As pillows can house a mixture of dust mites, bacteria, sweat and so much more, it's important to make sure they receive just as much attention as anything else on beds. To ensure your pillows are fresh, clean and yellow-stain free, Karl Huckerby is a cleaning expert from Spare and Square spoke exclusively to Express.co.uk to share his top pillow cleaning tips.

He said: "Pillows can get dirty easily as they collect the likes of dead skin, sweat, forgotten makeup and other bacteria as we sleep on them. This means they need to be cleaned thoroughly often, to avoid the likes of yellow stains becoming a permanent feature.

If you notice a stain on your pillow, the first thing you need to do is check your pillow's care label, so you know how to wash it without damaging it. Although the majority of pillows can be cleaned in the washing machine, the likes of feather pillows and memory-foam often need to be hand washed instead."

Well, if bonzo can C&P random nonsense without crediting the source, I'm sure we all can.

As to "bonkers as trans loving starmer". I guess that just speaks volumes about his mental capacity :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 02:07 PM

Allowing yourself to be brainwashed by Extreme-Right propaganda, and indulging in proliferating it around the internet without a shred of evidence, is as ‘bonkers’ as it gets.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 05:12 PM

Backwoodsman , good post

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Dec 22 - 10:33 AM

An excellent first Christmas message to the nation and the Commonwealth from King Charles.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Dec 22 - 11:23 AM

I thought so too bonzo. I hope Richie takes notice that even Charlie says that the nurses should be appreciated:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Dec 22 - 11:25 AM

True

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 22 - 01:52 PM

Michael Walkers opinion on why king charles is not fit to reign
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qElmEr8RrLg

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Dec 22 - 05:29 PM

Absolute rubbish

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 22 - 11:26 AM

Bonzo if it rubbish, as you say it is, perhaps you can prove that is rubbish rather than just making a remark of no consequence

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 04:44 AM

Just 33 days left to file your 2022 tax return!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 03:47 PM

SAVE THE BRITS https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/18/british-people-poorer-ifs-uk-autumn-statement

Whales are saved.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 06:27 PM

Well done Sir Brian May!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 06:59 PM

I was at university with Sir Brian, though neither of us knew it :-( Unfortunately, we were also there with Piers Corbyn. Grr.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 03:44 AM

Could have been worse - Piers Morgan!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:10 AM

Well I once had dinner with Thora Hird and I once sat next to Esther Rantzen all afternoon at Make Poverty History at the Eden Project. But Mrs Steve's best friend once had a chat with Buzz Aldrin so I'm shutting up about this now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:46 AM

Thora Hird? Is that the old lady that defrosts cattle?

I once spoke to Audrey Roberts (or Nadia Popov if you prefer) in Sainsbury's, Salford. The bloke who tried to kill Rita was with her as well but he didn't say owt. Mind you, he was run over by a tram in Blackpool...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 06:35 PM

Are we name dropping for New Year?

Ok, My siblings and I went to St Philomena's Primary School, later renamed Sacred Heart. In my sister's class was Paul Rodgers, who was the lead singer for Free, Bad Company and other bands.

In my brother's was Chris Rea.

Mark Rea was in mine, so no claim to fame by association there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 06:57 PM

I was at school with Danny Boyle (Thornleigh College in Bolton), though he was in the first year when I was in the sixth form. He also went to the same primary school as me, St Mary's in Radcliffe. I wonder if I ever bullied him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 02:49 AM

I read online this morning that quite a large proportion of British people are keen to have a referendum about rejoining the EU. I'm not sure how I feel about this, but I'm tending to lean towards voting to rejoin Europe. Anyone else have mixed feelings?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 03:39 AM

Although rejoining would be best all round, it would be far too divisive. Would they have us anyway?

I think the best we can hope for is some sort of association with the EU that gives us at least some of the benefits

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 04:01 AM

i think the first thing is to rejoin the common market to improve the trading situation. one ironic occurence of brexit has been the increase of more bureaucracy

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:15 AM

I never wanted to leave in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:44 AM

We won't be rejoining. We have a pig-headed government and an equally pig-headed leader of the opposition. We have the EU, rightly, digging in. The US has no interest in signing a spiffin' trade deal with us and never did have, along with many others. We are the only member of the G7 with an economy smaller now than it was pre-pandemic. The Northern Ireland "protocol" is still all over the place, as we knew it would be, and is seriously affecting the people there. And hands up all those who think we've managed to "control our borders" (just look at the record-busting net immigration stats, and all this shower can come up with is an aeroplane to Rwanda that no-one has got on yet).

Backwoodsman came across several years ago as a bit mean when he said that those who voted leave after swallowing the lies that all sensible people recognised as lies were gullible and feeble-minded. Well he was dead right. if you voted leave you are collectively responsible for this mess and should hang your head in shame. We did try to tell you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:54 AM

is it not in all parties concerned to have some sort of trade deal?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 06:14 AM

"is it not in all parties concerned to have some sort of trade deal?"

Yes, but this is a classic - perhaps the classic - problem in game theory. It is in everyone's interest, but it is in each participants interests to hold out a little longer than the others because that will give them a better deal.

There are many versions of this, but the simplest is 'Chicken'. You can win everything. Or you can lose by backing down. But given two headstrong participants you crash into each other and both get hurt. However, even then, if one of you is in an Austin 7 and the other in T-10 tank ....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 06:31 AM

in response to Steve Shaws post
The person responsible for the situation was a Conservative leader called dodgy dave Cameron, then we have a so called "democratic" system which allows one side to spend more on its campaign than the other

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 06:37 AM

Mutual trade deals are great when each side has substantial things to offer the other. The US wouldn't exactly be in floods of tears if we weren't here to trade at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 06:48 AM

of course some decades ago industry that had been in the uk was moved by multi nationals to the third world or china where working conditions and environmental conditions were not unionised. however What are the top 10 UK exports?

    Precious metals production – £22.8 billion. ...
    Aircraft parts – £17.3 billion. ...
    Motor vehicles – £14.6 billion. ...
    Pharmaceuticals – £13.2 billion. ...
    Refined petroleum – £8.8 billion. ...
    Natural gas and crude petroleum – £7.4 billion. ...
    Jewellery – £5.5 billion. ...
    Clothing – £4.5 billion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 07:20 AM

Interesting figures Sandman, just where did you get them, what are the figures for banking, insurance and financial markets?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 07:42 AM

i fdund them by googling uk exports , i am assuming they are correct ,perhaps they are not?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 07:50 AM

and this
According to the Office for National Statistics, UK exports in March 2022 grew across every industry. Total export of goods increased by 2.1% equating to an extra £0.6 billion in revenue. Exports to non-EU countries increased by 2.6% (£0.4 billion). While exports to the EU increased by 1.7% (£0.3 billion). These figures do not include the export of precious metals and non-monetary gold.

At AGI, we can arrange for the safe export of all types of goods and cargo. We can provide professional road, sea, and air freight services from the UK to the EU and across the world. Popular UK export industries vary year on year. There are, however, certain exported products for which the UK is world-renowned. So, what are the top 10 UK exports in 2022? Let’s take a closer look.
1. Precious metals production – £22.8 billion

The UK’s precious metals industry is involved in refining precious metals such as gold, silver, and platinum. Once refined the metals are used in a variety of applications including motor vehicle manufacturing, jewellery manufacturing, and computer and peripheral equipment manufacturing.

The precious metal production industry also produces precious metal alloys and metal foil laminates.
2. Aircraft parts – £17.3 billion

UK exports of aircraft parts includes complete aircraft and spacecraft, propulsion units, engines, and other related equipment and components. Customers include both commercial and military organisations, with craft specified for the transport of goods and passengers.

Despite the impact of the Covid pandemic on the aviation industry, exports remain high. This is due, in part, to the industry’s reliance on reserved orders. Airlines and governments often place orders for aircraft well in advance. This helps to insulate the industry from short-term economic instability.
3. Motor vehicles – £14.6 billion

Experts predict that UK motor vehicle manufacturing will continue to grow over the next five years. Demand for passenger cars, commercial vehicles like vans and lorries, and other specialist automobiles remains high.

Demand for new electric vehicles is also predicted to fuel a boom in the UK’s motor vehicle manufacturing industry. Motor vehicles are exported from the UK to locations around the world. At AGI, we work closely with several specialist sea freight forwarders that can offer competitive process on the wholesale export of motor vehicles.
4. Pharmaceuticals – £13.2 billion

AGI refrigerated trailer

The UK is world-renowned for its pharmaceutical production. Several well-established companies manufacture and export a variety of medicines including medical diagnostic preparations, biotech pharmaceuticals, vaccines, vitamins, and antibiotics.

At AGI, our Folkestone branch is heavily involved in the distribution of pharmaceutical products. Our refrigerated lorries are perfect for transporting temperature sensitive medication. And during the Covid pandemic, our lorries were used to import and export vaccination medicines.
5. Refined petroleum – £8.8 billion

UK refineries turn crude oil into products like petrol, diesel, jet fuel, and petroleum-based products including paraffin wax and white spirit. The refined petroleum market is often volatile. Prices fluctuate and the drive to more sustainable sources of energy is causing a reduction in demand.
6. Natural gas and crude petroleum – £7.4 billion

Crude oil and natural gas are extracted from fields both onshore and offshore. The gas and oil can then be exported around the world for refining and turning into usable products.
7. Jewellery – £5.5 billion

Jewellery exports include UK manufactured items using precious and base metals set with precious or semi-precious stones. Other items that incorporate precious metals include watch straps, cigarette cases, and technical laboratory equipment.
8. Clothing – £4.5 billion

Clothing manufacturing in the UK is internationally known for its premium quality. British made clothing is made from a variety of materials and items include workwear, casual wear, formal wear, underwear, and hosiery.
9. Organic basic chemicals – £4.2 billion

Basic organic chemicals include ethylene, propane, and butane. These organic chemicals are manufactured from refined petroleum and are used in a wide variety of consumer goods around the world.
10. Plastics and plastic products – £906 million

Plastics include plastic products such as packaging, building and construction materials and electric and electronic component. It also includes raw materials polymers and waste plastic for recycling.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 04:55 AM

mick lynch speaks
https://news.sky.com/video/rail-strikes-rmt-chief-accuses-govt-of-lying-as-transport-secretary-denies-blocking-settlement-with-u

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 05:02 AM

Rail strikes: RMT chief accuses govt of lying as transport secretary denies blocking settlement with union

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 11:07 AM

”Page not found

We're sorry. The page you are looking for cannot be found. You may have followed a broken or outdated link, or there may be an error on our site.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 02:19 PM

Moi Aussie.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 04:58 PM

Huh? And...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 04:59 PM

200!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 05:41 PM

It's been my severe misfortune to have had quite a lot to do with the NHS in the last three months. I've had three attacks of cellulitis since September, a condition that can turn life-threatening if not treated promptly. Kudos to my severely overworked GP surgery, who have prescribed the strong antibiotics I need just on the strength of my phone calls. They shouldn't need to operate that way but they have to get us all sorted. They have even agreed to let me keep a stash of a week's antibiotics at home so that I can start taking them at the first hint of symptoms (which happened to me last Friday - without them I wouldn't have been able to get a prescription until today, leading to God knows what). I got a severe attack in September and had to go to A&E (we drove there). I had to wait for over six hours to be seen, even though I hadn't urinated for almost 24 hours, a massive red flag for sepsis. My kidneys were severely damaged, mercifully not irreversibly. Following that were five visits to the medical assessment unit, each one consisting of anything between three and six hours of waiting in a stuffy, cramped waiting room. The cellulitis was sorted out very well by intravenous antibiotics, but I picked up a vicious acute bronchitis infection that took me almost two months to shake off.

Not in even the slightest way can I criticise the doctors and nurses who did their level best to get me sorted. I was dealt with at every step with love and care of the highest order. But I'll tell you what I think I've worked out, after seeing all the reports about the crisis in hospitals, the ambulance queues and the strikes by nurses at the end of their tether: this Tory government wants us to blame the NHS, to hate the NHS. They want the NHS to collapse so that they can privatise the lot and install a two-tier system, maybe even a three-tier system, fast-track for the rich and sod the rest unless you pay big-time insurance premiums. Let's all open our eyes, even you Tories here, and see what's really going on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 06:22 PM

For a decade or so, my children and their friends have been telling me they do not expect there will be a state pension by the time they retire. They regret it, but there is an acceptance of it.

More and more, I am hearing the same about the end of the NHS from people of all ages. There is a growing fatalism I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 06:30 PM

Well we have to fight back. I'd like to think electing a Labour government would be a good first step. But liking to think it doesn't actually mean thinking it.

In the meantime, don't get ill this winter. I've had every bloody jab going but I'm scared stiff of getting a dose of cellulitis that I can't get on top of at home myself. I mean, how the hell has it come to this?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 06:37 PM

i agree . today on the front page of the irish times people are advised to consider all opitions before going to hospitals

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 05:00 AM

yes i am sorry back woodsman, but if you google
Rail strikes: RMT chief accuses govt of lying as transport secretary denies blocking settlement with union, it comes up

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 07:05 AM

I'm worrying myself here. I'm a member of the Labour Party but I'm too bored to listen to Starmer's Big Speech. And wasn't Rachel Reeves a mess on the Today programme?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 12:06 PM

i dont know what to make of the following article
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-41041856.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 12:09 PM

A valid point that all people should not be homeless regardless of nationality, but is she doing it for a racist reason?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 12:42 PM

further more there are hundreds of derelict buildings hundreds of empty but non derelict places just standing empty, some of them are disused churches [one right next to me] whatever happened to jesus and christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 01:58 PM

Thanks to the lazy striking postmen, we received a Christmas card today 5 January 2023, posted 30 miles away on 10 December 2022.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 02:05 PM

Have I missed something - has the Republic of Ireland become a member of the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 06:30 PM

So here's part of a below-the-line comment in the Guardian, with which I concur:

"... Blair was radical. He promised change and he largely did good. He didn't bow to Tory narratives, he set the narrative. If Starmer wants to be a Blairite then act like a Blairite. Be bold. Face the Tories head on. Don't let them set the agenda. Stop being reactive and be proactive.

I'm willing to compromise despite my utter despair with Starmer. I thought his initial start at leadership was good. I'm happy to have Labour sing the national anthem, back the police and support business. What I am not happy is with them failing to support the unions, nationalise where appropriate, build stronger links with the EU and fail to challenge tory nonsense and right wing narratives, sit on the fence and run scared of papers like the sun and the mail which they can never appease.

Be more Blair and be more Corbyn at the same time. Give us hope."

I especially like that last line. Starmer has already nicked lots of Corbyn's policies, but, of course, he can't say so. I hate to say it, but I still don't think he's the man. And even if he does get in, it'll be a short first term.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:13 AM

no backwoodsman , but there is nowhere to post on european topics, and in the past the usa based mods have assumed that

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:21 AM

”no backwoodsman , but there is nowhere to post on european topics, and in the past the usa based mods have assumed that”

Then why not start a ‘European Politics’ thread instead of cluttering up our one and only permitted UK Politics thread with off-topic stuff? Ireland is not a part of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:32 AM

furthermore part of the island of ireland is in the uk. and this situation appears to happen all over the island of ireland
part of the island of ireland is in the uk, it is hardly off topic , ukrqinian refugees are coming to all parts of the uk including part of ireland and homelessness for people of any nationailty in these countries is not being properly adressed.
there is a part of the island of ireland that is in the uk .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:36 AM

Northern Ireland is heading into a "homelessness disaster" this Christmas, a charity has warned.

The chief executive of the Simon Community, Jim Dennison, has said that the cost-of-living crisis is making many people unable to afford payments on their homes.
There are at least 1,842 Ukrainian refugees in Northern Ireland who have arrived under the Homes for Ukraine scheme and the Family Scheme Northern Ireland is part of the uk Backwoodsman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:50 AM

Blair radical,no
RADICAL | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org › dictionary › radical
believing or expressing the belief that there should be great or extreme social or political change:

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:34 AM

But your original post wasn’t about NI, it was about the RoI. You quoted, from an RoI newspaper, an article concerning the RoI, and you referred to ‘where I live’ which, IIRC, is Ballydehob? I’ve just checked the map and Ballydehob is in the RoI.

You can wriggle all you like, but the RoI is not a part of the UK. If you wish to discuss RoI politics, I would respectfully suggest that the one and only permitted UK politics thread is not the appropriate place for it, and you should start a separate ‘RoI Politics’ thread.

Wriggle away….

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 04:31 AM

it is an issue [homelessness] which occurs in northern ireland and the uk.
you do not run this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 07:36 AM

”you do not run this forum.”

{{Sigh}} and neither do you.

I’ve made a perfectly reasonable request to keep RoI political issues out of this UK Politics thread and, if you really do want to discuss RoI Politics (and why not, that’s where your gaff is so it’s perfectly understandable that you would want to discuss issues which affect you directly), that you start a ‘RoI Politics’ thread.

It really isn’t a difficult concept. Or are you just looking for yet another public brawl? If so, you’ll have to find another victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 07:44 AM

Fact checks on -

Richie's speech

and

Keith's speech

Both seem to be lacking

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 08:16 AM

It’s a big problem that we’re living in an age of Dogwhistle-Politics, where the effect of the message is more important to the politicians than its accuracy - the Brexiteers’ campaign being a perfect example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:31 PM

> It’s a big problem that we’re living in an age of Dogwhistle-Politics

Hear hear, BwM, but it goes further back than the Brexiteers: I've just today been reminded of the "Labour isn't working" poster perpetrated by Snatchii and Snatchii in the late 1970s on the biggest billboards in the country. The alleged dole queue in the picture turned out iirc to be a photo of Young Conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:43 PM

Yes, I get that it’s been going on a long time. I merely gave the Brexit ‘Leave’ campaign as a recent, perfect example.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:48 PM

Best way to shorten the dole queues is to make them stand closer together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 04:12 AM

Very drole Bonzo. Bit like a joke but without the funny bit at the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 04:48 AM

Excellent win for Conservatives at last night's Great Dunmow South and Barnston (Uttlesford) council by-election result:

CON: 46.0% (+14.1)
RES: 29.2% (-27.3)
LAB: 14.1% (+2.4)
LDEM: 10.8% (+10.8)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 05:23 AM

Yes, an excellent result - on a 16.4% turnout. You forgot to tell us that bit!

I must remember to shout it from the rooftops next time there's an excellent majority vote for a strike on a 16.4% turnout of union members...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 05:27 AM

Turnout is irelevant

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 05:48 AM

A convenient attitude!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 06:19 AM

Funny that, lefties also have convenient attitudes!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 09:43 AM

Rather good article in The Economist Reflecting what I have been thinking for a while now

You may need to create an account but it is worthwhile and you do not need to subscribe.

Little snippets -

"Anyone can jump off a cliff. Climbing one is far harder"

"For Brexiteers, that means recognising the damage that Brexit has done"

"For Remainers, realism means putting aside ideas of rejoining the bloc"

and many more

Enjoy :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 01:33 PM

turnout is irrelevant. that is the correct spelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 02:12 PM

Fuck of sandman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 02:56 PM

I think you mean ‘off’, Bonz. Maybe, as well as extra Maths, Fishy Rishi should be pushing additional English tuition for his brainwashed, fore-lock tugging followers?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 03:16 PM

preposition
preposition: of

    1.
    expressing the relationship between a part and a whole. Who are you telling me to conjugate with? not Truss, I hope,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 08:05 AM

"I Truss not" would have worked :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 02:31 PM

I see that the foul mouthed proverbial is taxing the limits of his intelligence again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 03:19 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001gwx4
Hop growers are warning that unless something changes many won’t be able to continue. They say the cost of producing hops is up by 25% on last year - but that's not being reflected in what they’re being paid.
All week we're looking at machinery, great and small. Technology is often held up as the answer to many of the challenges agriculture faces, from improving efficiency, to reducing costs and fertiliser use, and solving labour shortages.
And a low tech solution to a prickly problem: Highland Cattle are being asked to start work on the windswept Spurn peninsula in East Yorkshire.

Presented by Charlotte Smith and produced by Beatrice Fenton

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 04:33 AM

Folks planning to sell a second property should:
1 Transfer half to spouse if not already done so
2 Make sure completion takes place before 31/03/23

Then 2 x £12,300 tax free allowances are available compared with 2 x £6,000 for sales after 01/04/23, or just £12,300 (pre 31/03/23) and £6,000 (post 01/04/23) if owned 100%!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 04:43 AM

I mean, where would we be without you? Hail the right-wing Martin Lewis equivalent!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 05:42 AM

where would we be? Dogging it in Barking?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 06:54 AM

Nah. Catting it in Catford. Cowing it in Cowley. Lambing it in Lambton. Pigging it in Sowton. Shitting it in Shitlington. Fishing it in Fishbourne. Getting laid in Henley. Even worse in Chicklade...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 11:31 AM

What could we do in Penistone or Scunthorpe?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 11:47 AM

"Penistone" sounds like a special brand of cream for a particular topical application...a firming agent maybe...

And if Typhoo put the t in Britain, who put the (....) in Scunthorpe?

Amusingly, when Jeremy over at TheSession decided to auto-substitute profanities with more euphemistic words, you couldn't type "Scunthorpe" any more. It came out every time as "Seejithorpe..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 12 Jan 23 - 07:31 AM

> "Seejithorpe..."

I heard once (I know not where) that earlier attempts at this sort of thing included "Sconthorpe", which simply transliterated the embedded Naughty Word from English to French.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jan 23 - 08:08 AM

"Sconthorpe",
That might not get rid of the pronunciation, as many people pronounce Monmouth as 'munmuth' and Coventry as 'cuventry'.
Of course the middle of Scunthorpe is not pronounced as a crudity because it ends in 'th', not 't'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jan 23 - 08:47 AM

Rather, it does not end in a 't', as I would pronounce it.

Scun - thorpe, rather than Scunth - orpe.

The 'th' is quite stressed, as I would say it, rather than unstressed as 'Sunth' would suggest.

Accents, are accents, though, and vary throughout the country. Mine is complicated, but has a Yorkshire foundation.


I am not sure this is a political topic, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 12 Jan 23 - 09:04 AM

> I am not sure this is a political topic, though

Let's put it down to political correctness, and move on hastily.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jan 23 - 11:10 AM

”Rather, it does not end in a 't', as I would pronounce it.

Scun - thorpe, rather than Scunth - orpe.

The 'th' is quite stressed, as I would say it, rather than unstressed as 'Sunth' would suggest.

Accents, are accents, though, and vary throughout the country. Mine is complicated, but has a Yorkshire foundation.


I am not sure this is a political topic, though!”

Correct, DMcG, but it’s not necessarily an accent issue, it’s a matter of etymology. ‘Thorpe’ derives from the old Middle English ‘thorp’, meaning ‘small village’, and that’s precisely what Scunthorpe used to be (my grandmother, a Briggensian, could remember it when it was a village and she was sent there to holiday with relatives as a child).

So it’s not ‘Scunth-orpe’ or even ‘Scunt-horpe’, it’s ‘Scun-thorpe’.

Just thought I’d mention it for Nigel’s benefit, knowing his deep and abiding interest in ensuring the accuracy of all details, no matter how insignificant they might seem. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 06:17 AM

"Will political parties dare to resist brexit?" (Article headline in today's Guardian)

"By the autumn of 2022, as Liz Truss’s disastrous premiership exacerbated concerns about the state of the economy, support for rejoining the EU had increased to 57%, against 43% preferring to stay out, according to a poll of polls by NatCen social research.
That marked a significant turnaround from mid-2021, when 52% wanted to stay outside and 48% to rejoin – the same margin as in the referendum five years earlier."

Howsumever, the main parties are all very timid about raising the issue of rejoining. The piece explains why. The can is being well and truly kicked down the road.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 07:53 AM

But those figures are from opinion polls.
Right up to the referendum (June 2016) most opinion polls were showing a vote to remain.
Opinion polls have been shown to be of little use on this subject. That is possibly because people answer the polls with the answer that is expected of them, not wishing to go against the vociferous minority.

Why should polls suddenly be any use in showing the public mood?
Wishful thinking by the Guardian?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 08:08 AM

Come on then, Nigel, list out the benefits we’ve all received as a result of BrexShit - no ‘taken are cuntry back’ nonsense, but real, tangible benefits that are making our lives better than they were in, say, 2020.

I won’t hold my breath…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 08:13 AM

Well point taken, of course, but I think the poll doesn't exactly show a marginal change. There's something in the air, though as I said, I can't see the political parties acting on it any time soon. That means I'm not exactly over the moon about the poll, but I think I see your need to dismiss it so summarily as a reflection of the fact that you always seem to cling valiantly on to the joys of brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 08:14 AM

That was a response to Nigel, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 09:40 AM

And still the boats keep coming. can you imagine the the bloody woke, Do gooders and charities standing for stopping a peaceful invasion. They'll all be throwing their toys out the cot!

It's about time this country did the same as Australia.
This country cannot afford this chaos much longer. It's just not fair on the BRITISH TAX PAYER to keep funding this INVASION.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 09:56 AM

Nothing compared to indulging non-doms. Or treating public schools as "charities" by letting them off VAT. Or giving bankers back their bonuses. Or trying to cut the top tax rate for the ultra-rich. Or letting gas and oil producers off with titchy windfall taxes, leaving them with so much profit that they don't know what to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:03 AM

Come on then, Nigel, list out the benefits we’ve all received as a result of BrexShit I'm guessing that 'out' should be 'one of', and that you are unable to spell 'Brexit', But:
Increased fishing catch limits

Also, the ability to decide for ourselves what action we take to control visitors from China since the relaxation of their travel restrictions. (Covid protection) Here. The EU claim to work as a bloc, but are making decisions piecemeal. Italy were the first to bring in restrictions, but thanks to Schengen that does not prevent Chinese visitors entering Italy through other EU countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:15 AM

Steve:
I think I see your need to dismiss it so summarily as a reflection of the fact that you always seem to cling valiantly on to the joys of brexit...
And your initially deciding to post it as grasping at straws . . .
(in a similar vein)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:19 AM

Run that by me again, Nigel...?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:22 AM

The Uk was not a member of the Schengen agreement. We always had the right to stop non EU citizens from entering the UK from any of the EU member countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:41 AM

Shaw behaving like a lefty schoolboy again!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:59 AM

Right up to the referendum (June 2016) most opinion polls were showing a vote to remain

I fully understand why you say that, and it was indeed the message the press and other media were saying.   However, this link from YouGov is worth reading. I believe, also, that the media did not pay anything like enough attention to the range of results within the confidence intervals, just going with the central prediction. Understandable, to try to keep things simple, but misleading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 11:05 AM

Go through my points and tell me which ones you disagree with and why, Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 02:18 PM

Nigel. Of the two "benefits" you list, the first is possibly worth up to £33m. A drop in the ocean (pun intended) compared to the costs of brexit so far. The second is no different to the border controls we had as part of the EU. So, in a nutshell, no benefits at all :-(

FWIW, I am of the opinion that rejoining the EU is not an option. Firstly, they will not take us back and, secondly, as we have seen since 2016, the subject is too divisive. I am firmly a believer in the EU but I accept that a large part of the electorate will be alienated by going back to 2015. However, leaving things as they are is not an option either. Leavers need to accept and admit that brexit has been a disaster so far and looks likely to be so for a long time to come. As a nation we need to work closely with the EU in a cooperative and positive way. Whatever government is in charge after the next election needs to work hard to build bridges with Brussels and stop the confrontational nonsense that we have seen for the last few years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 02:26 PM

I agree with all that. From the poll I sort of quoted, it seems that more and more leavers are seeing that leaving was a big mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 23 - 02:11 PM

Steve,
As I said, "If you can trust the polls". The link that DMcG gave was to 'YouGov' an online pollster, and they were quite clear in their opening comments:
Every other source of information suggested that a victory for Remain was a done deal - only the online polls revealed the true state of the race. The real story of this campaign is that not enough attention was paid to good polls, not the reverse.

The media who were reporting the expected results were clearly relying on different polls.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 23 - 02:29 PM

Well, there's a difference between a poll that suggests a very tight result and a poll that suggests a gap of 57-43. Still, as with you, I'm always happy to distrust polls. I'm old enough to remember us all thinking that Harold Wilson was a shoe-in in 1970, and looked what happened there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 12:24 AM

Why shouldn't Chinese visitors who are visiting one country in the Schengen area be allowed to visit another. Have you got a problem with Chinese people visiting other countries. That sounds a tad racist to me, shouldn't you be more concerned about the lack of controls that allow BRITISH visitors to travel, for example, for a three day break from Prague to Leipzig without going through border checks??? Or is it just Chinese people, for example, who are visiting the South of France also visiting Venice that you have a problem with. Doesn't that prove that only racists voted leave?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 03:11 AM

A number of countries have concerns about people travelling from China due to the covid situation in that country. I would imagine that you are aware of that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 05:38 AM

So we are going to get a law that enables the police to prevent a protest if they even *think* it might be disruptive. That's a nifty way of keeping any protests so nice that they don't embarrass the Tories by getting on the front page. In addition, you may have your right to strike scuppered if it's deemed that you must work to provide "minimum service levels." In other words, your strike won't have any impact, and if you don't comply you'll be sacked.

These are incredibly insidious moves - and it's not putting it too strongly - towards totalitarianism. And we don't even have to mention that this self-same bunch of incompetents have themselves failed to provide "minimum service levels" in schools, the police, hospitals and the ambulance service for over a decade...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 06:24 AM

This is one of the things the Brexit-Bunch meant when they were busy parroting ‘Take Back Control’ at every conceivable opportunity. The Feeble-Minded, the Hard-of-Thinking, and the out-and-out Racists were persuaded by the Brexit-liars that ‘Taking Back Control’ was a metaphor for ‘Kicking the forriners (sic) out’ but, sadly, it meant far more than just that - it was a declaration that workers’ rights, citizens’ human rights, and many other benefits that we had got into the habit of taking for granted, we’re to be dismantled.

Never have so many been deceived and made fools of by so few…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 06:26 AM

‘Were’, not ‘we’re’. @%&*ing Predictive Text! :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 06:32 AM

Not just insidious, Steve. It also (erm) strikes me as straight-out counterproductive ....

* Nurses take time and money to train.
* Them Up Top bleat "efficiency savings" and deprive the NHS of money.
* The NHS is understaffed and overstretched (therefore inefficient).
* Nurses start going on strike to make Them Up Top aware that this is not a Good Thing.
* Them Up Top threaten to sack nurses who go on strike.

.... Does not compute. MELON MELON MELON. Out-of-cheese error, and other computational protests to attempting to divide by zero.

On behalf of the rest of the Untied Kingdom, I wanna declare UDI from Planet Headbanger.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 06:50 AM

And let's not forget how Johnson not only undermined the law with his illegal gatherings but also tried to undermine the rule of law via proroguing Parliament and by trying to change the law to protect his corrupt mate. I seem to recall Priti Patel not being sanctioned for her illegal dealings in Israel, going as she did well beyond her ministerial remit. And let's not get started on Grant Shapps, with his extremely dodgy business dealings, including operating under a pseudonym in order to deceive, his blatant lies about not having a second job and his gross misrepresentation of benefits claimants statistics. When it comes to laws and rules, they are regarded by the Tories as their playthings, to be tweaked or ignored at their convenience.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 06:52 AM

.... Welcome, one misstep at a time, to the Republic of Gilead.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 08:29 AM

Amazing how people with nothing to do talk such drivel.

Good on the government for the introduction of a law that enables the police to prevent a protest if they even *think* it might be disruptive. These idiots causing mayhem by risking their lives sitting in the road need putting in their place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 08:44 AM

Just try responding to points made, Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 09:07 AM

"These idiots causing mayhem by risking their lives sitting in the road need putting in their place."

I am sure that they are able to make their own way to the middle of the road without help from the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 09:18 AM

Even better, don't bother responding.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 11:54 AM

Attila the Stockbroker on FB today….

”Anti-strike laws happening today - steamrolled through by the Tories like the anti-youth voter ID legislation and anti-climate change protest Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. The only people this government wants to vote (apart from their corporate friends obviously) are old Daily Mail and Sun readers.

They seek to deny those who will be most affected by climate change the right to demonstrate and the right to vote. And they want to keep workers' wages down to generate more dividends for their shareholder parasite cronies. Anti-worker, anti-youth, anti-life.

Support the strikers - and anyone denied a vote next May under the voter ID laws should refuse to leave the polling station. FPTP, unrelenting press bias, organised voter fraud. Enough is enough!”

My parents went through six years of war, and hundreds of thousands died, to keep fascism out of the UK. Those who support this bunch of Hard-Right-Wing fruitcakes should hang their heads in abject shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 04:03 AM

Note lefties all:

The non-domicile regime is credited with encouraging many wealthy foreign nationals to base themselves in the UK, educate their children here, establish businesses and create employment. Preserving the non-dom regime for short-term visitors to the UK is a welcome suggestion which is intended to minimise the impact on the movement of people to the UK to carry out short-term working assignments; however a system which encourages people to leave the UK after a few years means that many will simply choose not to come in the first place.

The value to the economy of wealthy families establishing themselves in the UK for longer periods should not be underestimated. Non-dom families will often make significant investments in businesses resulting in the creation of employment resulting in additional PAYE and NI collected, support UK charities and add to the economy as a whole by spending on these businesses, the education of their children and funding their lifestyle generally. Even though the UK tax system allows them to choose to pay the remittance basis charge of up to £90,000 per year instead of paying tax on their worldwide income, these families often still pay significant amounts of UK tax and add to the UK economy through their own, often significant, spending here. Long-term residents will also be subject to UK Inheritance Tax on their worldwide assets so this measure already helps to balance the equation. All of these factors should be considered by any government wishing to abolish the regime. The tax regime was purposefully designed to make the UK attractive to retain talent and to encourage those who can contribute to our society to move here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 04:15 AM

It should be noted that Bonzo's quote is by Tim Stovold, an accountant specialising in tax avoidance for the wealthy, and is from 2015. It is the opinion of a man who encourages the rich to avoid paying their fair share of tax. Little wonder that it was uncredited and posted as if it was fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 05:08 AM

Well Dave, which bits are not facts. Do the super rich not spend more than the poor? Do they not pay 20% Value Added Tax on all non essential payments? When they buy cars, washing machines, TVs, Kitchens etc, are they not top spec, most expensive and new? No budget spec, second hand models for them.

All payed with an extra 20% going straight into the public purse. Of course if you must make a moral stand then you must deny the public purse this revenue. The poorer amongst us will willingly make up the difference. Won't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 05:58 AM

What are not facts?

Stanron -

"The non-domicile regime is credited with encouraging many wealthy foreign nationals to base themselves in the UK" Is speculation, Credited by who?

"a system which encourages people to leave the UK after a few years means that many will simply choose not to come in the first place." Is speculation. How many? Facts and figures please.


"Non-dom families will often make significant investments in businesses" Is speculation. Note the word 'often'. How often? How much?

Of course the rich spend and pay tax but once you base those facts on speculative assumptions they become invalid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 06:03 AM

And please note - Trickle down economics is a known falacy.

https://www.economicsonline.co.uk/definitions/trickle-down-economics-why-it-only-works-in-theory.html/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 06:20 AM

Gnome - without inspecting a sample of nondom tax returns, your utterings are worthless lefty drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 06:34 AM

The fact is that they pay less tax than they would if they were "doms" (which is precisely why they choose to be non-doms in the first place), and they can CHOOSE whether or or not to pay big VAT on their expensive cars and luxury kitchens by either buying them or not buying them. In other words, they have tax choices not available to ordinary British people. It's great to have choices when it comes to how much tax you pay. I wish! It's not just the money, Bonzo - it's the principle. Oh, hang on, I forgot - Tories do expedient, not principle...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 07:08 AM

Absolute fucking rubbish

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 07:12 AM

Well we can always tell when we've got you beat, Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 08:50 AM

Bonzo, I have not once mentioned anything at all about tax returns and they are irrelevant to the discussion. As to being "worthless lefty drivel", well, let's see.

Worthless? Absolutely. Opinions, including mine and yours,on this forum are not worth anything.

Lefty? Yes, I am. It is not the insult you think it is

Drivel? Your quote was from Tim Stovald. He is an accountant specialising in tax avoidance. It was dated 2015. You did not credit him. It was his opinion. Which part of that do you consider drivel?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 10:00 AM

What if Bonzo actually is Tim Stovald?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 10:00 AM

Interesting article in "The Telegraph" today behind a paywall

Opinion by Sherelle Jacobs: "Britain is going to rejoin the EU far sooner than anyone now imagines"


"It is time for the Leave camp to start saying the unsayable: the Tories have made such a hash of Brexit that the project is probably now unsalvageable. Given Labour’s Europhile disposition, the window to lay the foundations for Brexit Britain was always limited to the Conservatives’ current reign. Now the end is nigh, and almost nothing has been achieved."
...
Take the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill set to replace the EU’s innovation-crushing GDPR. It was only set out last May and, after endless delays and distractions, there is little hope of getting anything workable passed before the next election. With two years at most until the next election, it would be next to impossible now for the Tories to launch a wholesale review of regulation to jump-start ground-breaking research, or exploit our freedom from state aid rules to channel funding to specific projects – even if they were minded to.

Where are the Brexit Spartans? They don’t seem to be interested in this big picture stuff. They are too busy down in the trenches, fighting their last heroic battle – an attempt to force through a bill which aims to scrap 4,000 EU-derived laws by the end of the year. By failing to explain how specific sectors would benefit from divergence, however, many voters will be wondering what the point is.

This is how Brexit dies. The received wisdom in Westminster is that it will none the less live on, not as a material thing, but as a political phantom – a subject that both parties avoid discussing at all costs, as the referendum’s legacy stalks Parliament, deformed, inviolable, forgotten.

("Sherelle Emma Jacobs is a British journalist. She is the Assistant Comment Editor at The Daily Telegraph" - Wikipedia)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 10:53 AM

I don’t believe we will rejoin the EU for the simple reasons that…

1) the many benefits and advantages we enjoyed over many (most?) other members were flushed down the crapper by the Leave-voting fools, and they would never be reinstated in the unlikely event we applied to rejoin.

2) the Tory government has demonstrated many times to the EU what an untrustworthy gang of rogues they are, and I believe that we are inevitably all tarred with the same brush by the EU. For this reason, I have a very strong suspicion that any such application to rejoin would receive a flat “No”.

But while there’s life, there’s hope. Everything crossed…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 11:50 AM

Stanron - Big grin :-D

That would be good but I have seen Tim's picture and he is far younger than Bonzo. Unless Bonzo is channeling Bojo and telling porkies!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 11:59 AM

"They are too busy down in the trenches, fighting their last heroic battle – an attempt to force through a bill which aims to scrap 4,000 EU-derived laws by the end of the year. By failing to explain how specific sectors would benefit from divergence, however, many voters will be wondering what the point is."

Well it's lost in the mists of time now, but I seem to remember arguing many moons ago with a certain T*erib*us and his sidekick Keith, rest him, that the UK had agreed enthusiastically with around 95% of all the EU rules and regs, we were umming and ahhing over about 3% more and were not happy with about 2%. After all, we were involved deeply in the drawing-up of 'em and were a highly-influential partner... So be prepared for another spell of Tories-not-running-the-country whilst vast tracts of parliamentary time are wasted...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 12:00 PM

PDF of "The Telegraph" article

Any breaches of copyright are, I think, their problem, not mine!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 12:03 PM

Another greedy, tax-dodging Tory being taken to task. The BBC seem to have been completely silent - what a surprise…

Nadhim Zahawi’s tax-dodging caught out…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 08:00 PM

Yeah, seven-figure tax-dodging by all accounts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 10:20 PM

300!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 12:17 PM

"Yeah, seven-figure tax-dodging by all accounts."

It's not unreasonable to argue your case with HMRC, who are at best draconian, and do not always interpret tax legislation correctly. Good for him, he lost and has to pay, no big deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 01:40 PM

He knew he owed tax and lots of it. He tried to get away with it. He's a cabinet minister. We should hold these people to the highest standards of honesty and integrity. He fails the test, clearly not in your eyes, but objectively....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 02:03 PM

The tax legislation provides the right to appeal an assessment, up to the House Of Lords if necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 02:23 PM

Your arse must be very sore indeed, Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 04:45 PM

He tried to cheat, Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 04:58 PM

Prove it, show me a copy of his tax return. You know nothing until you have seen that, which you would not understand anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 05:03 PM

You are defending the indefensible. Just because he's a Tory boy. Where are your principles!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 05:54 PM

Principles are irrelevant, it's tax legislation and the right to appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 06:21 PM

He's a cheat, pal! It's all over the news!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jan 23 - 05:04 AM

Principle are totally relevant which is why tax law needs to be updated so that the needs of society are put before the greed of the wealthy. I would go further and give the institutes the duty and power to revoke the right to practice of accountants who are paid proactively identify loopholes and legal avoidance methods that fall outside the spirit of tax law on the basis of what an ordinary person would consider reasonable to apply. I would go further, and make accountants personally liable for the taxes they help their clients avoid which society as a whole would benefit from.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jan 23 - 01:26 PM

Interesting article by Dan Neidle about Nadhim Zahawi. Well worth a read.

It is from Neidle's website Tax Policy Associates.


Nadhim Zahawi – the whole story

Of course it should probably be titled 'the whole story so far'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jan 23 - 01:27 PM

Capital gains are wiped out upon death since your estate will have to pay inheritance tax. So incurring CGT by selling assets later in life could effectively mean paying tax on the same asset twice - don't do it!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 23 - 08:43 PM

So dishy fishy Sunak has been fined for the second time in a year for breaking the law.

"Lancashire constabulary said on Friday: 'You will be aware that a video has been circulating on social media showing an individual failing to wear a seatbelt while a passenger in a moving car in Lancashire.

'After looking into this matter, we have today issued a 42-year-old man from London with a conditional offer of fixed penalty.'"

I mean, he illegally unhitched his seatbelt in order to make a video of himself which was intended for Instagram. What sort of an idiot would do that! An idiot that's running the country...?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jan 23 - 03:09 AM

The Tory politicians seem to have a sense of superiority and arrogance, which gives them the idea that they're 'above the Law', unlike us lower beings. I shan't vote for them again, honest!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jan 23 - 04:23 AM

Settlements with HMRC in cases of failed, but lawful, avoidance arrangements invariably include penalties & interest. If it was not "all above board" ( ie dishonest ) he would have been prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 23 - 06:14 PM

You're valiant, Bonzo, I'll give you that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 03:34 AM

Valiant? Nah, he just enjoys taking it up the arse from the multi-millionaire Posh-Boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 05:25 AM

Only arseholes believe what they read in the guardian rag.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 12:25 PM

i know quite a few people who read the guardian - me included. what exactly is your complaint about us? are you just jealous because you can't understand the long paragraphs or is your problem more philosophical. i've been reading it for nearly 50 years and never read the articles about money/finances - i'm more concerned with broader stuff like politics, ideas, arts and football and so on.....so fundamentally different eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 12:46 PM

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 12:51 PM

In that case, the last thirteen years have proven that the Tories are rock-solid socialists. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 01:05 PM

What bonzo fails to do, yet again, is credit the source of his quote. He cannot even think of original insults on his own but has to rely on the fatuous wit of Winston Churchill. It is probably the years of accounting that has dulled his brain. Glad I got out if it before it was too late!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 01:28 PM

Bonzo proving yet again that he is brainwashed by the propaganda of the Party of the Selfish and Greedy. And of the dishonest, judging by the recent examples of some of its leading members - Johnson, Zahawi, yadda yadda.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 01:28 PM

I told you before, I do not credit source, better things to do with my time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 01:35 PM

Then don't be surprised if posts are deleted, Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 01:44 PM

Nah, just leave them up for all to see what a dishonest person he is, Stilly. He is just mimicking the bunch of crooks, thieves and liars that he seems to idolise. What both he and his role models fail to realise is that most people can see through the deception and that their dishonesty will be there forever

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 02:29 PM

you never get any idea of what bonzo feels or cares about (the greyhound maybe?) it's just insults, spam numbers and tory worship. now and again i sort of feel the need to enquire - maybe it's the tree hugging, lefty social worker in me - but, like a tiresome client, i don't really care - just wish he and his tory idols would just leave us alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 04:07 AM

"I told you before, I do not credit source, better things to do with my time."

Is that wbat you advise your clients to do Bonzo?

The vast majority of Bonzo's posts, especially on this thread, are sent in order to try and wind people up. It is surprising that, even after all this time, it seems to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 04:18 AM

Well the story in the guardian rag [sic] seems to be true. He did avoid tax and he did pay a substantial penalty, and we're talking about £5 million ballpark. I notice this morning that "penalty" is being used as a euphemism for "fine" (not read in the Guardian either!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 04:41 AM

More from Dan Neidle here.

What the Zahawi statement tells us, and what we still don’t know

I think Zahawi might be gone by Wednesday.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 06:11 AM

Either that or he will be prime minister. This lot seem to love cheats and liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 06:48 AM

The alleged 30% penalty is high and it suggests that he's been a very naughty boy indeed. I agree with Rain Dog. He'll be gone by Wednesday, as PMQ will be like shooting fish in a barrel otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 07:03 AM

Now that Sunak has asked the ethics advisor to investigate, it is very hard to see how they could sell an 'all is fine, nothing to see' story. Yes, I know innocent until proven guilty, but that is law, not politics, and if Zahawi stays, Sunak will pick up lots of charges of "whitewashing" and cries of "Where's this 'integrity, then?'" and much more.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 08:32 AM

From the BBC

"A few additional comments from Downing Street now, as the prime minister's official spokesman has been taking questions from reporters.

"Additional facts" over the weekend have led to the ethics investigation into Nadhim Zahawi's tax affairs

Rishi Sunak is previously not understood to have known that Zahawi had paid a penalty to HMRC

The investigation will be completed "as quickly as possible"

Sir Laurie Magnus, who will lead the investigation, will focus on ministerial declarations and whether these breached the ministerial code

But, it could extend to whether Zahawi's tax arrangements were appropriate"

++

So it would seem that either Zahawi:

Did not not fully inform Sunak of all the facts

Or

Sunak is already trying to distance himself from this latest mess.

The Tories could do with a better PR department or just getting their members to be more honest with each other. It might be quite a while before we can expect all of them to be honest with the general public.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 08:33 AM

What I'm waiting for (or did I miss it?) is for Zahawi to receive the curse of "the full and complete support of the Prime Minister". That used to be Parliamentary code for "the pearl-handled revolver is on its way, so do the Right* Thing"; the offender would then resign within the week. So: who's got custody of the pearl-handled revolver?

* I would have said "Honourable", but with this shower? *akkh* *phht*.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 10:06 AM

Yeah, you've missed it! :-) So Fishi is pretending he didn't know about the penalty?   That's a laugh is that. He should step down due either to lying to us or for gross incompetence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 11:05 AM

Now another story of Tory snouts deep in the trough - seemingly our then PM, Boris ‘Father I cannot tell the truth’ Johnson put Richard Sharp’s name forward to become head of the BBC after Sharp had helped set up an £800k personal loan for Johnson.

Greedy, selfish Tory pigs, snouts in the trough once again. And still, the brainwashed, hard-of-thinking fools try to justify supporting them.

https://www.indy100.com/politics/boris-johnson-bbc-chairman-loan

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 11:31 AM

While watching Beeb coverage of Urgent Questions in the House, re Zahawi's little embarrassment, de Pfeffel vs the head of the Beeb ect ect ect ....

Herself: I don't see why they're having Urgent Questions --- they're not answering them.

Me: It puts it on the record that they're not answering them.

.... taking five minutes to say nothing is a skill; this lot doing so under heavy fire is an artform that's so high that it puts a cesspit to shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 11:53 AM

And yet another, in todays Guardian:

Conservative health minister has big stake in Covid testing firm

Exclusive: Nick Markham, who co- founded Cignpost Investments during the pandemic, was given a peerage by Liz Truss

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 11:54 AM

Yes I know there was supposed to be an apostrophe...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 04:11 PM

"The alleged 30% penalty is high"

No it's not. He was trying to use the tax laws in a particular way to "avoid" tax, which in itself is not illegal. HMRC did not agree with him, and he let their decision stand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:11 PM

Between 0 and 30% is the penalty for lack of reasonable care so, yes 30% is high. It is the maximum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:13 PM

Somebody who earns enough to be liable for £5 million in tax shouldn’t have any need to dodge paying that tax - they are already immensely wealthy, without dodging paying their taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:15 PM

But hey, Tory pigs, snouts, troughs. And supported and enabled by fools who are, by comparison, as poor as church mice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:19 PM

And wasn’t Zahawi the guy who claimed the cost of heating his horses’ stables on his Parliamentary expenses account?

Words like ‘greedy’, ‘grabbing’, and ‘fucker’ spring to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:52 PM

So Fishi didn't know "until last weekend" that Zahawi had paid a massive penalty while he was Chancellor. That is simply bollix. Are they really trying to tell us that the Civil Service failed to vet the man who was taking on the highest financial office in the land? Unbelievable. No, worse than that, a downright lie. Of course he bloody knew. That would be like a primary school headteacher hiring Jimmy Savile then claiming that they "didn't know" about his depredations.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 06:24 PM

So speak lefty triddlebuts!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 08:10 PM

There's nowt leftie about wanting some straightforward behaviour from the people who are supposed to be running our country. Although a bit of graft and corruption here and there, a touch of the Old Pals Act and the notion that the law is for others do seem to be rather right-wing sentiments. Perhaps that's what you mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 01:30 AM

Well Steve, our brainwashed, Daily Mail-reader, Tory shill can say whatever he likes about the Lefties, but at least we have the comfort of knowing that, unlike him, we weren’t so gullible as to vote like turkeys for Christmas. He voted for a bunch of greedy, selfish robber-barons, and that’s exactly what he got.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 02:08 AM

Excellent!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 03:55 AM

Q.E.D.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 06:22 AM

What is a triddlebut, never heard of such.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 06:57 AM

Quasi-philosophical questions:

Can you be a leftie if:

you live in a half-million quid house, mortgage paid up?

you would rather have Starmer than Corbyn?

you've never borrowed money to buy a car, yet paid eighteen grand for your last one, and you and the missus have a car each?

you have so much saved up that you juggle your money around to avoid paying tax on the interest?

you never have overdraft or credit card debt?

you can still afford to put your heating on?

you once spent an hour looking up the inheritance tax rules?

you vote tactically for the LibDems?

you have a pretty good works pension on top of your old age pension?

you support the monarchy?

you support Manchester Citeh?

you've ever paid more than six quid for a bottle of wine?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 01:01 PM

Part of the OED definition is "a person who advocates or practises socialism"

So, yes!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 03:29 PM

I heartily agree but I'm not telling which of those apply to me, just in case anyone thinks there was something autobiographical in that post!

Next question: you can't sing the blues if...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 10:48 PM

...you support Liverpool?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 23 - 04:27 AM

Well now, Dave, you've provoked me into a sidetrack. I think it's interesting to contemplate that some of the greatest post-war football managers have been socialists. Busby, Cloughie, Fergie, Shankly (aka God) and Klopp, all proud and self-declared lefties. Admittedly, with all the money sloshing around in football, especially in recent decades, there was the sniff of champagne socialism around some of them, though Shanks never got posher than his three-bed semi. I think that their successes in large part can be put down to their philosophy of all for one, one for all, and that no player is more special than any other in the team, a philosophy shared by all the above. David Beckham could tell you that...

A mixed picture, of course, and not all great teams by any means have been managed by lefties. But a significant (and surprising?) number have. So yes, you may not be be able to sing the blues as a Liverpool fan without showing further credentials, but you can definitely be a leftie!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 23 - 05:01 AM

I wonder if Bonzo’s a Man. Citeh fan? He’s daft enough… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 23 - 05:49 AM

Well I could easily put him off by telling him that Pep Guardiola also has socialist credentials and is a vocal Catalan separatist...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jan 23 - 03:09 PM

well there's Pep, johann cruyff, xavi/iniesta puyol etc, the catalans and the whole barcelona thing has socialist roots- and much of the greatest football in recent years. and was it paul breitner the german full back who took it to a higher level, as i dimly and probably erroneously recall

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 04:40 AM

I see Zahawi is still there then.

In other news, Rod the Mod has admitted voting Tory but he now admits that this lot are crap. I admit to enjoying his music. Particularly some of the more recent stuff. Does that make me a bad person? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 04:53 AM

”Rod the Mod has admitted voting Tory”

I’d expect nothing else from that washed-up Chav.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 05:10 AM

I saw that too. Of course, a leopard changing its spots leftward (slightly, I suspect) has got to be a good thing, especially one in the public eye. But Rod's view of politics, as reported in that article, is simplistic. Also, I'm not sure that offering to pay for private medical treatment for just a few people is any sort of answer, though anything that shines the light on the shite that this government has dropped on the NHS can't be bad. Simplistic or not, Rod's vote counts for exactly the same as the vote of any professor of politics. We need much better political education in our schools. Of course, the kneejerk reaction to that from the right wing is that we're all subversive reds under the bed (I know that from first-hand experience in the 70s). Whenever working-class people vote Tory, they are doing it out of an ignorance that the right has every interest in maintaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 05:21 AM

Zahawi is still there because the can has been kicked down the road - "We have to wait for the outcome of the independent [sure...] enquiry, blah..." A touch of "waiting for Sue Grey" all over again. It won't work this time. Silly Rishi has yet to see how toxic it is keeping him on board. On top of what's already happened, there's the report of £30 million in unsecured loans to his wife's business... That one hasn't caught fire yet....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 05:45 AM

Beg pardon for misspelling your surname, Sue Gray!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 06:12 AM

What is your objection to the loans?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 08:05 AM

For Bonzo's benefit, from yesterdays Guardian. I did not say I objected, Bonzo. But in light of his murky tax affairs and the fact that he's been the Chancellor, I think more clarity would be welcome.

Nadhim Zahawi, the beleaguered former chancellor and current chair of the Conservative party, is under pressure to reveal the source of about £30m of unsecured loans made to his wife’s UK property company.

The loans were used to finance parts of a large UK property portfolio, reported last year as worth about £100m, and were declared in company accounts which span a period from 2017 to 2021 but give no information about who the lenders are.

The calls for greater transparency are the latest request for the former chancellor to explain how his family’s fortune has been managed, after he became embroiled in a mounting controversy over his tax affairs that prompted the government to launch an ethics investigation.

Accounts show just under £30m has been provided as unsecured loans to a company called Zahawi & Zahawi, which has paid £60m for a property portfolio that includes commercial and retail premises in London, Birmingham, Brighton and Walton-on-Thames in Surrey.

Zahawi & Zahawi was formed in 2010 when it was owned jointly by the MP and his wife, Lana Saib, before he transferred his 50% shareholding to her when he became a junior minister in January 2018.

Zahawi, whose tax affairs have been referred to the independent adviser on ministerial standards, said he was confident he had acted properly throughout, adding: “In order to ensure the independence of this process, you will understand that it would be inappropriate to discuss this issue any further, as I continue my duties as chairman of the Conservative and Unionist party.”

Zahawi is battling to save his political career after he admitted reaching a tax settlement with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) following an “error” over capital gains from the sale of shares in YouGov.

The former chancellor has faced scrutiny on a tranche of shares in YouGov, the polling company he co-founded, which were held by a Gibraltar company, Balshore Investments, and sold for about £27m between 2006 and 2018. It was estimated by the thinktank Tax Policy Associates he may have avoided £3.7m in capital gains tax on the sale of these shares.

Dan Neidle, a tax lawyer and founder of Tax Policy Associates whose work initially raised awareness of the Zahawi family finances, said: “The fact that an MP’s family can receive £30m of unsecured loans I find incredible. Those loans could be from Elvis for all we know. But it is a fact that a person or persons unknown has loaned the Zahawi family £30m and we don’t get to know who.”

Prem Sikka, a Labour member of the House of Lords and an emeritus professor of accounting at the University of Essex and the University of Sheffield, added: “There has been no explanation in the accounts of who provided these loans. Given the concern over Mr Zahawi’s tax affairs we now need further clarity. The ethics adviser should be looking at these matters too.”

The loans in question were not secured against any assets, according to the accounts. Most property loans are secured against the building itself, and the name of the lender is often declared in the Land Registry or at the UK corporate registry, known as Companies House.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 12:58 PM

Bet the Daily Heil hasn’t got that on its front page…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 01:25 PM

What obligation to disclose source of the loans?

The accounts show what is required of a private company, however a reader must assume that the company has not been affected by Covid, and no Covid Grants have been claimed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 05:14 PM

I didn't say there was an obligation. I sad that clarity would be welcome. My friendly advice to Nadhim would be that continued absence of clarity regarding his affairs will hurt not just him but Rishi too. Why would I worry about the Tories hurting themselves? Carry on, lads!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 06:25 PM

Nobody discloses any more in small company filleted accounts than required FRS 102 1A to show "a true and fair view".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 06:39 PM

Well that tells us. Clear as bloody mud. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 03:22 AM

When you mention leopards, Steve, should it not have been changing his leopard skin pants? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 04:29 AM

What is your objection to the loans?

My objection to the loans is that the source of them is hidden. If, for example, what had happened is one of his UK companies bought a whole lot of services from the Cayman Islands, and so avoided tax because it made no profit, then loaned the money back to him as an unsecured loan, that would be a clear case of tax evasion and fraudulent. If it came from a Russian oligarch it would problematic for other reasons. That it was unsecured raises the question whether the lender actually wanted something other than money in return.

So the problem is not the loan, but the secrecy around them and in particular the fact they were unsecured.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 04:50 AM

I should add, by the way, that the fact a company is not obliged to release information is a very poor excuse for letting someone who wanted to play the system get away with fraud. I am not accusing anyone, naturally, just saying how thin that defence is.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 06:34 AM

Well it is what it is, so put up or shut up!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 06:45 AM

The whole point, Bonzo, is that it may not be what it appears to be, and what it really is may just be a tad shady. We're not talking here about spivs selling stuff off the back of a lorry. We're talking about people who are running the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 06:58 AM

Well, unlike the Lefty Triddlebuts, Bonzo ‘knows his place’ where his betters are concerned, he assures himself of their approval by gazing askance, doffing his cap, and tugging his forelock in their presence, and he has the good manners to thank them after he’s lifted his shirt for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 07:28 AM

"The whole point, Bonzo, is that it may not be what it appears to be, and what it really is may just be a tad shady."

I suggest that you write to the company and complain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 08:40 AM

Nah. I think I'll just wait for Nadhim to be sacked (a cert) and for the feckless Tories to implode (another cert).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 11:28 AM

”Nah. I think I'll just wait for……the feckless Tories to implode.”

Bring it on - it’s high time that parcel of greedy, tax-dodging rogues got their just desserts before they totally bankrupt the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 12:26 PM

Oh, I forgot ‘lying’ - ‘that parcel of greedy, tax-dodging, LYING rogues…”.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 04:05 AM

Steve’s first prediction has come true - Zahawi’s got the boot! Not before time! Now for the second prediction - everything crossed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 04:07 AM

Yeah a few days later than I expected but he has gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 04:57 AM

Yes, he has gone, and rightly so.

Consequently, I expect the media and others will quietly forget to explore that mysterious £30m unsecured loan. They should not, but I expect they will.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 05:57 AM

There is absolutely no way that you will find out the source of that loan - no obligation to disclose in small company acccounts.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:09 AM

A loan from the company to a director or family member of a director is a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:18 AM

Are our tory trolls enjoying their humble pie for breakfast? Seem that Zahawi not carelessly failed to declare millions stashed away on offshore accounts, but also carelessly failed to disclose that he was under investigation by HMRC when he was appointed Chancellor of the Exchequer and Party Chairman. This shows the extent of total contempt that the self-entitled **** have towards those of us they consider their inferiors.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:20 AM

Nevertheless, the secrecy surrounding the loan, together with Zahawi’s failed attempt to defraud HMRC of £5m in unpaid tax, demonstrates that he is a very, very shady character indeed.

Mrs Backwoodsperson habitually refers to Zahawi as ‘The Eunuch of Stamboul’. Easy to see why…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:37 AM

of Stamboul was Constantinople
Now it's of Stamboul not Constantinople!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:39 AM

Humble pie???? No I had some excellent thick bacon - a Jewish Vegan's delight!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 01:25 PM

thick bacon? is that like gammon?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 01:26 PM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 02:38 PM

LOL! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 03:24 PM

I mean thickly cut bacon, Morrison's best!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:22 PM

Yeah, don't confuse the bacon with the gammon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:42 PM

so, bozo, you choose your diet by the amount of offence it may give to decent people. you are one sick eejit. do you really imagine anyone cares? do you talk about your food related attacks on minorities outwith these pages? do you boast about your gluttony just to annoy foodbank users?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 07:15 PM

And anyway, you can't make a proper bacon butty with thick-cut bacon. Bloody Croydonista southerner...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 01:55 AM

Usual drivel from peteglasgow

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 02:09 AM

A-a-and…400!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 06:42 AM

Bacon is often preserved with Nitrites, which are contributory to Colon Cancer, good eating, Bonzo

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 06:49 AM

Earlier this year, France's health agency ANSES confirmed a link between nitrites and nitrates in ham and charcuterie and the development of colorectal cancer - otherwise known as bowel cancer. The French government has since begun planning the reduction or phasing out of nitrites from processed meats in the country.29 Dec 2022
Italy is alone in banning these preservatives to protect their Parma Ham industry
Do Italians use nitrates?
Italy has always been at the forefront in the production of raw ham without nitrates. PDO hams are always free of these preservatives, to regulate.30 Apr 2022

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 23 - 01:49 PM

Just seen elsewhere…

”The idea of the Tories having an Ethics Advisor is like a brothel having a Virginity Consultant”.

Made me larff.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 10:29 AM

Things not looking too good for Voldemort Raab - eight complaints for bullying under investigation, a total of twenty-four complaints have been registered (allegedly).

The words ‘Ethics’ and ‘Tories’ really don’t belong in the same sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 12:31 PM

when you see him sat beside the prime minister du jour at PMQs he always has the same sort of strange expression - angry though vacant

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 12:55 PM

You've put a picture in my head Pete. Raab alongside Rotten and Vicious singing "Pretty Vacant" :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 06:46 PM

i always think about john mcdonnell with jeremy
thatcher and keith joseph
brown and blair
john major and currie
cameron and osborne
johnson and trump

all with their varied skills, vices and peculiarities

then there was truss and coffey. jeez, how did it ever come to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 07:31 PM

Diane Abbott (do note the correct spelling, Bonzzoo...) has an educational background that would put most of us here to shame, me included. Go on, look it up. Jeremy Corbyn, though perhaps not a born leader, has more principle in his little finger than all those Tories Pete mentioned put together, and a damn sight more than Starmer.

Anyway, Raab is doomed. Next to go. I wouldn't like to bet on who will be next after him. There will be Braverman scandals to come I should think, though Shapps already has form. Fishi's dad-in-law is embroiled in tax issues with HMRC, nothing to see here, just another few million...

My missus brought me up a cup of tea a couple of mornings ago. That early, I didn't have my hearing aids in. She'd been listening to Today and was saying to me, they've decided not to ban neonicotinoid insecticides...Thérèse Coffey...

I said, what use would that be? We don't raise coffee in this country, the climate's too cold! I was lucky to receive that tea still in its cup... (and that's a completely true story!)

As of this year it's 50 years since I joined the NUT, now the NEU. I'll never not be in a trade union until they finally carry me out in a box, and I never worked a single day as a teacher not in the Union. I fought the good fight along with many another to get the Union to be militant, which in my opinion it never has been (which in large part is why teaching has been shat on for decades), and got in trouble several times with the Union establishment. My union mentor and numero uno brother-in-arms was Blair Peach, one of the finest men it's been my privilege to know. In spite of this shoddy government's rules about who can strike (they got into power on a far weaker mandate than we have to achieve to go on strike, lest we forget), we comfortably won the strike ballot, which echoed the strength of feeling I've seen in the people I know who are still in teaching, generally a very mild-mannered bunch. It could be that this bloody shower will eventually starve the public sector workers back to work, but that will be nothing like a solution. I want to see Labour giving us a real alternative for repairing the public sector, even if it's never going to be a quick fix. I'm hearing nothing of vision so far...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Feb 23 - 04:19 PM

Why doesn’t the HMR&C break into Zahawi’s house and install a prepayment tax meter?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Feb 23 - 08:24 PM

Pray tell me, who f***ed up the economy last year. Her name wasn't Truss, was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 03:16 AM

Yea, but she is white and wimpy. Bonzo will like that. Makes him feel manly

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 04:38 AM

Saw this on FarceBook this morning (button it, Steve) - thought I’d post it here for our resident Zahawi-apologist to peruse…

”Dear Nadhim Zahawi, today I had two rather marvellous and deeply British experiences, and I thought you might like to know about them. I have been ill for the past four weeks with a particularly unpleasant flu virus, and since I am both self-employed and immunocompromised I thought I'd better check in with my GP today before things started to turn nasty. I called the surgery at 10.15 am, expecting there to be long delays at all points in the system; but by 12.15 I had been dealt with by a very skilled receptionist, triaged, been given an oppointment, been seen by a doctor, been diagnosed and given a prescription, been to the pharmacy and taken my first drugs. God Bless the NHS - what an amazing invention. Then ( after I had a little lie down) I finished and filed my online tax return, without, I am happy to say, my accountant finding any errors, careless or no; I then hit the button and proudly paid my taxes, in full, out of the money which I have managed to save in the course of the past year of not very highly paid work as a writer, teacher and freelancer. It seems to me that the two things are not unconnected; we pay our taxes, and in return we get this extraordinary public service. Now I know that some people are saying that the NHS is a mess, that it needs more money, but that sadly we just can't afford it from current tax revenues. Well, here's an idea; what if very single one of the top earners in this country - oh, I don't know - let's say just the top 1% of them- what if just that top 1% paid their full whack of taxes fairly and promptly, instead of exploiting all and every available legal loophole and/or occasionally resorting to a spot of "carelessness" via their accountants. Imagine. For instance, imagine if only another 500 or 1000 people had each paid - oh, I don't know - plucking a figure out of the air - if they each paid another £3.8 million in taxes this year - without being asked, or forced, but simply because they are proud of this country and its NHS and all the extraordinary work it does.....or even simply because they are decent human beings. Just saying. Just imagine, eh?”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:15 AM

What absolute bollocks. HMRC will not allow overpayment of tax, they will refund any excess paid automatically.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:28 AM

Nobody mentioned ‘overpayment of tax’. Where did you dig that red herring up from? For your clients’ sakes, I hope your maths is better than your English comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:41 AM

HMRC will not allow overpayment of tax, they will refund any excess paid automatically

Great! So your advice to the Zahawi's and others is, in the event of the slightest doubt, to overpay any tax they might be due, safe in the knowledge any excess will be refunded.

Hardly worth employing an accountant, then Just pay lots and let HMRC sort it out!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:47 AM

"HMRC will not allow overpayment of tax, they will refund any excess paid automatically."

Not strictly true.

Voluntary payments / donations to government

"Donations in general towards public expenditure

If you wish to make a voluntary payment to HM Government you may arrange a direct bank transfer to HM Treasury. Please be advised that gifts cannot be ring-fenced for a specific purpose or assigned to a specific area of public spending."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 10:12 AM

Worth asking again. Just who was it that managed to wipe billions off the economy by getting her sums wrong?

And just how stupid would anyone be to think that they can liken a large lady of African heritage to a hippopotamus and think they can get away with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 04:00 AM

Well, Liz Truss has written a long article in the Sunday Telegraph saying whoever it was, it certainly wasn't her.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 05:29 AM

It’s trolling/flaming, pure and simple. Nothing more, nothing less.

From Mudcat FAQs, ‘Dealing with Flamers and Trolls’ section…

”I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it many times more: the best way to deal with both flamers and trolls is to ignore them. Give them silence, and they'll go away. They feed on attention - don't give it to them.
There is another problem that occasionally arises here - people who are threatening in their behavior. It is of utmost importance that you do not try to deal with these people. If you ignore them totally and inform Joe Offer or Big Mick about them quietly with a personal message or e-mail, we can quietly make them disappear (to an extent).
PLEASE DO NOT TRY TO DEAL WITH THESE PEOPLE YOURSELVES.
If people seem dangerous, LEAVE THEM ALONE.”

I recommend all of us normal, rational people to ignore Bonzo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 23 - 08:40 AM

Troll clearly = not agreeing with lefty views!!!

---

No, trolling because you continually smear people with racist descriptions. Attacking people by denigrating their race, gender, orientation, or features is not a response to liberal politics, it is an ugly personal habit you've never managed to reform. Say "goodbye" to all of the nice people, Bonzo. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 10:04 AM

I generally listen to the podcast "The Rest is Politics" with Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart. I have just been listening to a long interview by them with Michel Barnier largely, but not entirely, about his experiences during the Brexit negotiations. If you can get a chance to hear it, it is worth your time.

There is a book "La grande illusion: Journal secret du Brexit (2016-2020)" which is, I think, only available in French at the moment, but no doubt an English translation will be produced in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 10:09 AM

My mistake, it is available in English under the title "My Secret Brexit Diary: A Glorious Illusion". The hardback ISBN is 1509550860, but it also available in paperback and on the Kindle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Feb 23 - 02:06 PM

From the pen of Mrs 'ardin's kid

Found in one of Cecil Sharpe's old notebooks

Folk Song

A boy on a bicycle
Once ask-ed of me
“How many strawberries
Grow in the salt sea?”

And I answered him back
With a tear in my eye
“As many Tory ministers
As have never told a lie.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 03:36 AM

Bit of a strange article in todays Guardian. A mixture of reporting on the Jared O'Mara case and tbe increasing unhappiness of local party members with ths NEC involvement in selecting candidates for the next election.

Comments about ex-Sheffield Hallam MP come as key figures in Bolton N.E.quit

"The entire selection committee in Bolton North East resigned after they were not allowed to choose the shortlist, an increasingly common practice in Keir Starmer’s Labour party, saying: “Yet again, it appears that the Labour party is seeking to promote the views and attitudes of a clique in London, rather than local members in the north.”

They added: “This goes against the attitude necessary to win back the red wall, which is so desperately needed to deliver a Labour government.”"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 04:15 AM

Well I've been saying ever since Starmer took over that he's sure to lose the next election. I'm 99.9% certain that I'll eating my words (which will make me very happy), but that's because, as the old cliche goes, elections are lost by the incumbents, not won by the opposition. The Tories almost look as if they're imploding on purpose. The spectre of a weak Labour leader who favours centralising control freakery (and worse, who is determined to sideline the left, the true heart and soul of the party) is unedifying in the extreme and is not the mark of a man who is capable of sidelining the Tories for a generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 06:23 AM

The problem you've got is that the general voting population, brainwashed as they are by the Tory Propaganda Machine, find 'the left, the heart and soul of the (Labour) party' very unappealing indeed in terms of attracting their votes.

'The left, the heart and soul of the party' can't win GEs on their own, neither can the entire membership of the Labour Party - they need to get ordinary Joes voting Labour. I'm still seeing and hearing a lot of people who might otherwise vote Labour making excuses for the Tories' abysmal failures over the past thirteen years - "Pandemic, Ukraine, Labour spent all the money and somebody had to pay for it, Rishi's doing his best, yadda feckin' yadda" - so I'm not convinced that, even as the Tories publicly commit Hara-Kiri, Labour are guaranteed to win in 2024.

Id be very interested to hear how 'the left, the heart and soul of the party' plan to persuade voters that a Leftward-leaning Labour Party would be best for the United Kingdom. (Personally, I believe it would, but how are the Daily Heil/Scum/Torygraph/Ex-press readers to be persuaded?).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 06:24 AM

Ordinary Joes and Janes - apologies for the unintended misogynistic omission!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 12:03 PM

I wonder if this is what the Leavers voted for? Brexit - the gift that keeps on giving…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 02:14 PM

75 years ago the Labour Party did something far more radical and left wing than ever before or since. They formed the NHS. Don't forget that they were up against the nations darling war hero, Churchill, in the 1945 election. The right has never forgiven them and has been trying to demolish that good work ever since. The left wing, which is, or should be, the heart of the Labour Party became too complacent and thought that people would remember it was them who gave the nation free health care, a proper nationalised energy and transport policy and a secure old age. The right knew that people were fickle so the tempted them with Thatcher's cheap housing (I have an otherwise sane friend who still reveres the blessed Maggie because she got him on the housing ladder) and, more recently, they have even tried to reincarnate the Churchillian spirit with the blonde buffoon and Brexit.

Labour do need the left wing but it needs the vision and leadership of a new Atlee. Corbyn had the vision but was severely lacking in leadership. Starmer is a centrist puppet for the media. The party needs someone like Mick Lynch to provide focus and drive. Joe and Jane need to see the face that Labour presented 8n 1945.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 02:17 PM

All that can be said is that leavers voted to leave. None of us knew what the terms of leaving were going to be. Some of us knew that there would be extra costs involved due to us leaving. I originally thought it would take 5 years to see how well or not it turns out. Now, due to covid and the situation in Ukraine, I think it might be up to 10 years before we get a true picture. We are only 2 years in so far.

I voted to remain. So far I have seen no reason to sugest I was wrong to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 04:59 PM

Well done, Dave. Great post there. But you'd think that expedient centrists such as Backwoodsman (sorry, John, but you've called me much worse...) have the right to ditch all of Labour's traditional values... just to win a bloody election? Well let me tell you something, John. Starmer will "win" only because the Tories have immolated. As I've said, that's a joy to me. But it won't, and can't, endure. What we don't want is one Labour term, with all the struggles that will ensue thanks to the Tory mismanagement of just about everything, followed by the absolutely inevitable Tory resurgence (quite likely led by the populist Johnson). That is the nature of this country, the nature of this electorate. Starmer is a control freak who is doing his damnedest to sideline the principled left, for nothing more than expediency. Dammit, we're even hearing the resurrection of that lying bullshit about antisemitism! Another cliche: Labour is, or is supposed to be, a broad church. I never said, to quote you, that Labour should become a leftward-leaning party, and, as for running scared of right-wing tabloids, I'd like to remind you that Blair (who, for all his faults, was no right-winger: by his record should we judge him...) got Murdoch solidly on his side. The gutter press will always back winners, whatever their political colour. But you don't become a winner by creating schisms in your own party. That's a solid bit of history that any party leader should learn from. Unfortunately, Starmer has been skipping school.

And I'm still a Labour Party member.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 05:41 PM

Was It Atlees vision or Bevans? Atlee was the adminstrator?
Blair was a right winger,his Governments only achievement was down to mowlam and corbyn and was the good friday agreement, in domestic policy he was a Conservative
Atlees domestic progress was praiseworthy, his foreign policies were more questionable, he became an American puppet.
His majority was voted in by Returning servicemen who had fought together regardless of class, and who had risked their lives and were determined that in risking their lives their should be more equality. The only reason I see to vote for Starmer is that he might manage to negotiate a trade deal with Europe, IN MY OPINION PRETTY IMPORTANT

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 23 - 06:06 PM

Winning a trade deal with Europe will win precisely a very few votes. Some real imagination is needed there, and Starmer has already burned his bridges.

Well we can argue about where Blair stood, and I'm definitely no fan, for all sorts of reasons. But he left our education system and the NHS in good condition. That isn't what the right do in this country. By their fruits, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:02 AM

ok. good points however the bombing of iraq, was a Right wing foreign policy
Chilcot said: “We have concluded that the UK chose to join the invasion of Iraq before the peaceful options for disarmament had been exhausted.
    An extension of Atlees agreement to join Nato and to be closely allied with USA foreign Policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 05:02 AM

Excellent post from Dave, the expected spittle-flecked, ranty ‘lecture’ from Steve, and I’m buggered if I can work out what The Sandman’s rattling on about.

But nobody seems to have made any attempt to give answers to the question that was the main point of my earlier post - how 'the left, the heart and soul of the party' plan to persuade voters that a Leftward-leaning Labour Party would be best for the United Kingdom. (Personally, I believe it would, but how are the Daily Heil/Scum/Torygraph/Ex-press readers to be persuaded?).

So come on, it’s a simple question - what are the policies and tactics you would personally recommend to the LP which you believe would convince a good majority of voters, especially those with a tendency to follow the aforementioned publications, to elect a Labour government of the Left? How ya gunna do it? Corbyn failed spectacularly in 2019, what would you do to make it happen in the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 05:18 AM

I thought I had already done that John. The electorate were once convinced that a functional NHS, nationalised utilities and transport, and care for the elderly and vulnerable, all left wing policies, were a good thing so they voted for them. If the Labour Party want to retain their core values and win elections, they should be concentrating on the issues I have just mentioned. Corbyn failed because of his lack of leadership and inability to stand up to the right inside and outside his own party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 05:30 AM

I should have said that Corbyn failed because of his lack etc. rather than his policies. It was those policies that had the right running scared enough to bring out the big guns and he was just not strong enough to withstand the attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 05:40 AM

Well it might be a start if some of you actually spoke to people who did not vote labour last time. Then you might get a better idea of what those people want.

Asking labour supporters and/or workers what they think is needed, is a bit pointless if they don't have some idea of why people did not vote for them in the first place.

The vast majority of people in this country share similar views. You just have to explain that to them. They might vote for you then.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 06:10 AM

(Ignoring the expected insult: go back to bed, John, and try getting out the other side!)

To my mind, Dick, you are right wing or left wing (or neither...?) according to your overall ideology. A single act (e.g. the invasion of Iraq) might have people suspecting that you're on the right wing spectrum, but, in itself, it doesn't necessarily condemn you. Attlee was a confounded misogynist (right) but he founded the NHS (left). Blair invaded Iraq (right) and he widened the gap between rich and poor (right), but he left both education and the NHS in a much better state than he found them (left and left). Mick Lynch fights tooth and nail for his members (left) but is an ardent brexiteer (right). Most politicians support the monarchy (right), but many of those will also fight for equality and social justice (left). Your stance on brexit might be that you want to leave because you see the EU as undemocratic (left), or that you want to leave because you hate foreigners (right). Personally, I disliked Blair, but he kept the Tories at bay (arguably by being Tory-lite...), and I'd hardly call him hard-right...It's complicated...

And again, I wasn't arguing for a left-leaning party but I am arguing for tolerance and the return of the broad church. Removing the left from Labour is a nakedly expedient move, peppered with unwarranted demonisation, and it's thoroughly unprincipled. If you want an unprincipled party to run the country, great. You've already got one. One more time: if you want to lose an election, create a schism in the party. History teaches us that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 06:17 AM

re 12 Feb 23 - 05:02 AM

"but how are the Daily Heil/Scum/Torygraph/Ex-press readers to be persuaded?

To paraphrase this you seem to be asking something like

"How can I get these scum to like me?"

Perhaps the first move would be to stop calling and thinking of them as scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 06:27 AM

I think 'scum' in this case refers to the Sun newspaper, Stanron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 07:03 AM

I think the word 'readers' suggests that you may be wrong in this case Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 09:15 AM

I took "Daily Heil/Scum/Torygraph/Ex-press readers" to mean readers of all the misnamed rags but I could be wrong. I'm sure BWM will put us right sooner or later :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 09:43 AM

Well not that many people read newspapers these days. Of those who do read a paper, I doubt that many of them would agree with everything in the paper.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 11:56 AM

True but the principle remains. The headlines in particular set off the dog whistle reactions of many people and the papers mentioned are expert in setting off racist and other hate reactions

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 12:18 PM

More so with the websites rather than the actual paper itself. Nearly all, if not all, newspaper websites chase readers via their click bait snippets. Those that invite reader comments on articles, tend to attract comments from a very small number of viewers/readers. A lot of those people who comment are regulars, repeating the same views over and over.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:17 PM

left wing policies that are popular with everyone'
Pay the NHS workers and protect it from privatisation
support all public services - stress thriving communities and respect the hero workers who work within it
renationalise energy, transport, care sector and all privatised stuff
tax the rich, transaction tax for shares, capital
quick and efficient assessment of asylum seekers
constructive dialogue with our european partners - work to fill vacancies in all sectors with locals or migrants from wherever
ban foreign ownership of football clubs
prosecute tax avoiders not benefit claimants
etc - there's loads to do . maybe education x3 is the best insurance against having to go through all that shite again for a while anyway

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:20 PM

though i guess the most important thing is to have an effective and enthusiastic leader who can persuade the electorate - i don't think it's starmer and it wasn't corbyn. Rayner? Burnham?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:22 PM

”I took "Daily Heil/Scum/Torygraph/Ex-press readers" to mean readers of all the misnamed rags but I could be wrong. I'm sure BWM will put us right sooner or later :-)”

Sorry Dave, been out all day with my wife’s parents, treating her mum to lunch for her 81st birthday. But you’re correct anyway! (FWIW, the aforementioned parents are avid readers of the printed Daily Mail, and they believe every word in it, so I have almost thirty years’ experience of what that rag’s hateful, shameful propaganda can do to the beliefs and opinions of otherwise good and decent people).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:27 PM

Stanron - since their disgusting one-word headline following the Hillsborough tragedy, The Sun {{spit}} has been known by many decent people, not only in Liverpool but all over the UK, as ‘The Scum’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:43 PM

Cheers, Pete. And everything you put in your list is principled. We can ditch all that for expediency in order to win an election (though there will be the delusion when we do win that we won it, whereas the truth will be that the Tories lost it by implosion). But the effect won't last, quite likely not even for one full term. And the Tories know that. We need something better than four years of blaming the Tories for the mess they left us with. With Starmer, we haven't got that, nothing like. In 2028-ish, the Tories will be back. They always come back, and the electorate in this country find it far easier to side with the Tory brand of populism. Whatever we think of Blair, we desperately need to examine what it was that (a) made him win, (b) made him keep winning. Whatever it was, it's blatantly obvious that Starmer hasn't got it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 02:46 PM

After 34 years, most newsagents in Liverpool still won't sell the Sun.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 23 - 06:57 PM

Dave:
True but the principle remains. The headlines in particular set off the dog whistle reactions of many people and the papers mentioned are expert in setting off racist and other hate reactions

Which headlines? Or can you not quote them?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 03:54 AM

Well Nigel the infamous Scum headline has already been mentioned but rather than rely on one that old I skimmed today and the Daily Heil has come up trumps with "secret plot to unravel brexit". The story behind it does not matter one bit because as that line shouts from this morning's newsstands there will be some foaming at the mouth about remoaners and traitors ruining "are cuntry". Why use the term "secret plot" other than to suggest some sort of shady cabal wanting to bring down the government. How can they "unravel" brexit when we have already left? It's all about causing passions to rise and it works with some.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 04:12 AM

Come on Dave. Which bias do you prefer?

The Guardian 11.2.23


Revealed: secret cross-party summit held to confront failings of Brexit

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 05:00 AM

The one you quote is far less inflammatory and more truthful than the one I posted. Which is the point I am making. It is the language of the headlines that do the damage. I also note that the "secret" seems to have been revealed on the 11th by the Guardian yet the Mail is still reporting it as a "secret plot" 2 days later.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 05:06 AM

A lot of those people who comment are regulars, repeating the same views over and over.

I'm glad that doesn't happen here on Mudcat!

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 05:08 AM

It was 'secret' at the time it happened.

I imagine The Guardian was happy that the meeting happened - more 'proof' that Brexit is not working.

I imagine that The Daily Mail are not happy that the meeting happened - more 'proof' that Brexit is being betrayed.

Meanwhile I am happy the meeting happened as it might result in Brexit going more smoothly. If such a thing is possible of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 05:10 AM

Your post made me smile Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 06:50 AM

”Your post made me smile Doug.”

And your post made me chuckle, RD! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 07:15 AM

Yes, good to see a sense of humour still runs through these threads at times :-D

I think we are losing the plot a bit though. It was about the press stiring up bad feeling and I believe it was been well and truly proven that it does happen :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 07:30 AM

”I think we are losing the plot a bit though. It was about the press stiring up bad feeling and I believe it was been well and truly proven that it does happen :-)”

I believe you’re right, Dave, despite others’ standard tactic of attempting to pick nits. ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 08:30 AM

All papers tend to pander to their readers interests. None of them want to lose readers or visitors to their click bait pages. All of them.

The vast majority of readers do not share all the views expressed in their paper/website of choice. A lot of readers do like to think that their views are correct and that those who disagree are wrong.

Not everyone will agree with your point of view. Get used to it. Try talking to people who have different views. We do not have to agree about everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 08:32 AM

But there are red lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 11:28 AM

Indeed there are red (or insert your colour of choice) lines. I will engage with others who have different views to mine. I will even talk (for a while) with people who have racist views. I question them about why they hold such views. If they are not willing to engage in conversation I will walk away but not before telling them that I disagree with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 11:40 AM

Rain Dog - My friends and aquaintances include brexiteers, tories, transgenderphobes and many others whose views on some subjects I disagree with but we have far more in common than what seperates us. I would draw the line at hate speech or postings and have serious words with any of my friends who indulged in such practices. I also regularly read editorial and news from both the Mail and the Guardian. But I do draw the line at The Sun ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 11:51 AM

I agree Dave that tory and labour voters have a lot in common. The majority of people in this country probably agree about a lot of things but seem to refuse to recognise that fact.

This thread and previous UK politics threads seem to ignore that fact. I have said before that there seems to be a 'group think' to drive people who have 'right wing' views away. I don't like that behaviour.

It is only a handful of people who post to this thread on a regular basis. I would hope, indeed I do suspect, that their online behaviour is not the same as their behaviour in reallife.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 12:48 PM

As far as I am concerned there is not and never has been any concerted effort to drive anyone away. It is significant though that many with right wing views have been suspended and/or banned for continually using hate speech or trolling other members.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 12:49 PM

Maybe they learn their diplomacy from the gutter press :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 12:56 PM

By and large we have a politically uneducated and politically naive electorate.

Until politics of ALL views are taught in school as a main stream course we will continue to do so.

I would suggest that it suits certain elements within the political spectrum to allow this situation to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 02:39 PM

It depends on who is doing the teaching Raggytash.

Can anyone imagine Steve giving a balanced view of politics? (Granted that he might well dismiss the whole topic as being unscientific)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 02:56 PM

There is a huge difference between someone teaching a topic and someone sounding off on a minority interest Internet forum, Rain Dog. I would never presume to judge the ability of someone to do their job based on random Internet postings.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 03:51 PM

Spot on, Raggytash. It suits the right to keep the electorate politically ignorant. That works even better in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 23 - 03:58 PM

That was a pretty daft post, Rain Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 14 Feb 23 - 04:34 AM

pete sounds fairly sensibly centre ground to me. my own politics come from the late 70s when the popular culture was good music and anti-racist. the anti-thatcher thing was strong and based on humanity and equality and a lively anti culture. All that's happened since has been a gradual and occasionally violent move to the right. now we get the ex-thatcherites giving their opinions as if that was reasonable yet they are far more 'left' than any part of the current government. in my mind (unreconstructed trot) i'd say someone like corbyn represents the sensible, moral and decent centre ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 23 - 12:50 PM

yes and look how Corbyn was vilified by the media, unfortunately no changes to the system are allowed by the rich and the establishment since atlees government, the labour party of the sixties main achievements were liberal reforms such as capital punishment and legality of homosexuality etc

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 23 - 01:11 PM

There are more than enough people to vote for change. They just need convincing!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 05:07 AM

So Jeremy Corbyn will not be allowed to stand as a Labour candidate at the next election.

"...Sir Keir said the party had changed under his leadership and 'we are not going back,, adding that if others did not back him they could leave." [BBC]

Well so much for the broad church then. Starmer campaigned at two general elections to get Corbyn into Downing Street at the same time as all the confected brouhaha about "Labour antisemitism" was boiling away. But now this. The sheer hypocrisy is staggering. The expedient ousting the principled. Ironically, Starmer will be relying on the left to keep their heads down so that he can "win" by Tory default.

I can't see the Tories rescuing themselves before the next election but I can see Starmer being a weak, single-term (or less) prime minister (I nearly said "leader" there, but that wouldn't be the right word). I dearly want to be wrong, but I'm not putting my money on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 05:28 AM

My post about teaching politics was tongue in cheek and was refering to a post Steve made on the 27th Jan.
There are facts and then there is the interpretation of those facts. I imagine that politics taught by someone with left leaning views would be somewhat different from someone who has right leaning views.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:06 AM

Have you been a teacher? I've often been in the position of explaining things to children from points of view that I don't necessarily share. It's called being objective and acting with integrity. You have to put both sides in every case. All the teachers I've ever encountered (except for some teachers of religion) have known that the classroom is not the place to proselytise. Hidden in your post is the old reds-under-the-beds scare. It's not justified. Your only alternative is to keep people ignorant, and that's the right-wing position.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:21 AM

(my last post should have begun 'steve' not 'pete')

i see nicola sturgeon has just resigned - honest, decent and principled to the last. she's been the sensible alternative to all the squabbling eejits in westminster for years now, i'll miss her reliability. it's sickening to see starmer's performative hypocrisy in refusing to consider working with the most popular, progressive party and leader in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:41 AM

Maybe Ms Sturgeon is destined to become the next leader of the Labour Party? One can but hope! ;-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:50 AM

Agreed (and I realised that you meant me!)

Apropos of keeping people politically ignorant, I see something of a parallel in our dismal failure for many decades in providing good education for sex and relationships. For years, schools were allowed to get away with avoiding it completely, and all too often it was all about diagrams and the school nurse rolling a condom on to a boiling tube. There are still people who campaign against it, threatening to take their offspring out of the lessons. So what's the damage? Children getting their "information" from the unpoliced internet, that's what, ending up with a very warped notion of what sex is about, girls pressured into giving in to entitled boys with all the bullying and loss of self-esteem that it entails. Pornhub cheerfully filling the vacuum that the education system has pusillanimously created, exploiting the vulnerable for all its worth. The same thing happens when the electorate is kept ignorant. We are made far more vulnerable to the lies and populism with their meretricious and easy attractiveness, helped, of course, by the right-wing press. Seventy or eighty million people voted for Trump, in most cases unknowingly dead against their own interests. We Brits ended up with a lying, cheating charlatan who was raising champagne glasses with his fellow scumbags while the rest of us were kept in our houses away from loved ones.

Good education, whether in politics, relationships or the environment, increases our resilience in the face of attempts to exploit us. Nothing is perfect, and there may be risks, but if we lay the groundwork then leave our teachers to it we will create a generation which will question everything, be far less susceptible to exploitation and which will make far better political choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:54 AM

Well just like the Tories the Labour Party has firmly set its face against letting Scotland decide if it wants to be independent. That's completely wrong-headed in my view, and any coming-together of Sturgeon and Labour is about as likely as a duff bottle of Hirondelle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 08:02 AM

It was a joke…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 09:12 AM

Well in the past I've heard laments as to the lack of a coming-together of a progressive alliance which would have the prime focus of getting the Tories out. The Tories seem to have ensured now that we don't need one. But they will get back in, so there's something to think about at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 03:39 PM

i'm hoping that nicola sturgeon will get promoted to be the new manager of Partick Thistle, and that we get promoted in May

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 04:10 PM

Steve:
Well just like the Tories the Labour Party has firmly set its face against letting Scotland decide if it wants to be independent.

They had a referendum, and decided the point, in 2014

How often do you believe the Scottish government should be able to put everything else on hold to have that same referendum? General opinion seems to be that a 'once in a generation' event should take 20-30 years to be repeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 04:30 PM

the scots were told so many lies during the referendum - of course the biggest one being you have to vote to stay in the union if you want to stay in the EU. this has been explained so many times - are you even interested in scotland? Given the chance to be a small, progressive independent nation in northern europe, with loads of natural resources instead of chained to a massive , lunatic bully. well, i expect we would all be demanding a referendum every week until enough fearty, tory/unionists dullards change their minds and get the right answer to the simplest of questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 05:36 PM

I am torn on this one. I do think it is up to Scotland to decide, but seeing what untangling 40 odd years of entanglement is like, the consequences of dealing with over 300 years'worth is going to be immense. It is not like India or other countries which gained ndependence because of the shared border, fi ances and - not etirely of course - legal structures. I would favour far more devolved powers to independence, but as I said, I rhink it is really Scotland's decision

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 05:40 PM

"How often do you believe the Scottish government should be able..."

As often as the Scottish government decides. If the Scottish people are annoyed enough at frequent calls for a referendum, they can vote their government out. The Westminster set have got every interest in stopping the vote for their own nefarious reasons. I'd also add that a huge amount has changed since the 2014 vote, including brexit (which the Scots didn't want), grinding austerity, the imposition of a completely disreputable charlatan in Downing Street and the blocking of laws that should have been in the gift of Scottish people to decide.

Yep, that isn't how it is. But that's how it should be.

"...should be able to put everything else on hold..."

You mean, like Cameron and Johnson were "able to put everything else on hold" in order to hold a referendum followed by four years of all-consuming toxicity between the UK and our partners in Europe? I doubt that the Sots would manage that, yet I don't hear you complaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 06:58 PM

Scots

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:15 PM

Amazing how people forget that during the independence referendum the tory s**m warned Scotland that if they left the Union they would lose their EU membership while the lying s***s fails to mention that the corrupt two faced self serving liar johnson who was brought to power by pathetic proverbials who were more concerned about their snouts in the trough.


Every tory voter should be crawling on its hands and knees apologising to everyone in Scotland and the tory party either:

(1) Rehold the independence referendum.
(2) Fully, and unconditionally reinstate our EU membership, apply whatever force is needed to get the EU to obey the UK.
(3) Force the EU to reinstate Scotland's EU membership, thus allowing the rest of the UK to take EU to ECJ for giving one part of the UK preferential treatment over another.

Option (1) is infinitely preferable than UK committing crimes against humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:19 PM

end of rant

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Feb 23 - 07:29 PM

From a purely selfish viewpoint I would be upset if Scotland did acheive Independence. It would surely mean England and Wales standing alone, would never see another Labour government.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 05:18 AM

I would favour far more devolved powers to independence, but as I said, I rhink it is really Scotland's decision

That, for me, is the worst option. Either one set of laws from Land's end to Jon o'Groats or two separate countries, each free to make their own laws. I don't mind which.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 11:39 AM

Are you quite sure, DC? Scotland already has a (somewhat) separare set of laws and devolution in Holyrood. Are you saying one of your optuons is to scrap all that, to have all rule from Westminster.
Demo max (I believe that is the jargon) would increase the powers of Holyrood, but is a difference of degree, not a completely different system.

I see it as a pragmatic approach as a stepping stone to full independence if that is wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 11:55 AM

"Hidden in your post is the old reds-under-the-beds scare. It's not justified. Your only alternative is to keep people ignorant, and that's the right-wing position."

You could not be further from the truth.

I am not in favour of keeping anyone ignorant. I am not in favour of group think either. Thatsometimes seems to be the case here, where a handful of posters seem unable to understand that others might think differently from them.

Sometimes it is a good idea to walk away from your keyboard and engage with people who don't have the same mindset as yourself.

Life in an echo chamber is not healthy. No matter what your views are.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 12:25 PM

That's a bit rich coming from someone who posted this piece of nastiness:

"It depends on who is doing the teaching Raggytash.

Can anyone imagine Steve giving a balanced view of politics? (Granted that he might well dismiss the whole topic as being unscientific)"

You don't understand that most teachers behave with integrity and believe in balance. I'd suggest that if you don't trust teachers on politics, you shouldn't trust them with science, history or the arts either. Rather than dealing in silly slurs, you'd be better off telling us how you think that good political education could be structured. As you've done two nasty posts close together, perhaps you could walk away from YOUR keyboard while you reflect and come up with your constructive ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 12:45 PM

Scotland already has a (somewhat) separare set of laws and devolution in Holyrood. Are you saying one of your optuons is to scrap all that, to have all rule from Westminster.

Why should Scotland have devolved powers any more than, say, the Yorkshire and Humber Region, which has about the same population. Greater London has about the same population as Scotland and Wales put together. Separate laws for all the the regions would lead to mayhem.

The other option, to sink or swim on their own, is better than the mish-mash we have now.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 12:57 PM

I'm not sure that population size or the size of the area in question should determine whether a place should be independent. There are plenty of small nations (in either or both regards) that do very well. If the people in a region feel that they have decidedly distinct economic, ethnic, cultural or historical interests, then my view is that they should be given full rein to have self-determination if that's what they decide. There's more than a hint of imperialism in the notion of a bigger neighbour, with dubious claims on the resources of the smaller entity, calling the shots. Claiming that mayhem could be a consequence of a split sounds rather like the big brother saying that it wants to avoid inconvenience to itself...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 01:14 PM

I'm not saying that smaller countries should not have the right to self-determination; just that devolution, with key powers retained by central government, is not the answer.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 03:25 PM

the problem for small nations if they have an independent currency is that they are at the mercy of currency specualtors.
If Scotland was independent would they rebuild Hadrians Wall, legally are they allowed to be independent under the act of union, would they rejoin Europe if allowed and then there would be more bureaucracy between england and scotland.
rep of ireland thinks it is independent but whilst it is in Europe effectively they have Home Rule.
from rep of irelands point of view Scotland rejoining europe and leaving the Union would be good

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 05:52 PM

Plenty of small countries do very well on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 23 - 06:08 PM

From the Guardian editorial:

Erasing the dark marks of the recent past should not mean disavowing everything that happened between 2015 and 2020. There is a danger that Mr Starmer’s determination not to allow Mr Corbyn to represent Labour at the next election comes to symbolise that stance. “The Labour party is unrecognisable from 2019 and it will never go back,” Mr Starmer said on Wednesday. “If you don’t like that, if you don’t like the changes we have made, I say the door is open and you can leave.” That sounds like a message to the hundreds of thousands of people who joined Labour in those years and the millions who voted for the party that they aren’t welcome.

To conflate the antisemitism of some on the left with all leftwing politics is illogical and shortsighted. Given the state of the country and the world, now is not the time to dismiss important ideas just because John McDonnell once smiled at them. Not only is the former shadow chancellor one of the most interesting economic thinkers in the Labour party, he was also right to oppose austerity from 2010 onwards – not a claim that can be made by all of the shadow cabinet.

Mr Starmer served in the frontbench team of his predecessor. He ran for leader promising to carry on the ideas of his predecessor. To proclaim that there is no place for Mr Corbyn in today’s Labour party, no matter what he says or does, not only looks vindictive, it poses serious questions about the consistency of the current leader – questions that his opponents will be all too happy to raise come the next general election.

The Guardian, though being on the right side of things here, is being a little polite. Vindictiveness and inconsistency is putting it mildly. There's nothing worse than the sight of a weak leader trying to act all stern and assertive, especially when that involves peddling untruths. I'd just add that the rest of the editorial, the bits I haven't quoted, contains a lot regarding "Labour antisemitism" that I vehemently disagree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 02:48 AM

PLENTY OF SMALL COUNTRIES DO WELL ON THEIR OWN. lets have plenty of examples then of truly independent small countries that do well on their own

Most of the small countries in Europe do not have their own currency, The disadvantage of this that they cannot devalue their currency the advantage is that they are protected against currency speculators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:18 AM

Well I'm not letting you rule out EU countries! Each one has its own independent political and legislative structure, just as we did. So good examples would be Denmark, Ireland and non-EU New Zealand, each of which has a population very similar to that of Scotland (Denmark slightly higher, the others slightly lower). Finland has a population almost identical with that of Scotland, as does Norway. Iceland, less than a tenth! Plenty more in Europe but that'll do for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:36 AM

ireland is part of Europe it is not trult independent effectively it has home rule, the farming is heavily subsidised by europe. n

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:39 AM

Norway has been a rare example because it used its oil revenue wisely.

european countries inside the EU are not independent they benefit from the european empire, any countries inside the EU are not independent they get financial assistance from europe

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:43 AM

if ireland left the EU it would be a financial disaster for the farming community and the majority of people, they would have to join the commonwealth, they could not survive on their own

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:46 AM

Scotland would have to join the european empire, does the act of union allow it? IT WOULD BE LIKE BREXIT A COMPLETE DISASTER UNLESS THEY WERE UNDER EUROPEAN RULE,that is not independence

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:53 AM

New Zealand has been successful as an independent farming country because it has an ideal climate for farming beef cattle and sheep do not have to be kept inside they can graze on grass 90 to 100 percent of the time, i suppose somebody will suggest that the north and south islands declare independence from one another, that would be truly daft.

Scotland will not vote for independence they might vote for effective home rule under europe, god help the uk then.
The Republic of Finland and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) have a close relationship. Finland is one of six members of the European Union that are not members of NATO. Finland has had formal relations with NATO since 1994, when it joined the Partnership for Peace programme.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 04:21 AM

from the house of commons library, if you are genuinely intersted it is available for download .... Steve Shaw
Research Briefing
Published Tuesday, 10 January, 2023

    Research Briefing
    Devolution
    Elections
    Government
    House of Commons
    International law
    Monarchy
    Parliament

    David Torrance

A briefing paper on the legal issues surrounding a Scottish independence referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 05:20 AM

Promising noises from Northern Ireland, though it is being stressed that !we are not there yet". I do have hopes we will get there soon, and it will hinge on giving the DUP a face-saving way out, I suspect. As a rule, I am against ministers deciding things without involving Parliament, but this might be one of the cases where that is the best available solution.

Even more important, in a way, is that while a express lane/red-and-green lane or whatever has been suggested by both sides, that hinges on both sides trusting the other to police their side of things properly. That we may be gradually building that level of trust after Johnson and co is a very welcome sign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 07:26 AM

Ireland is no longer a country heavily reliant on Agriculture. Agriculture together with fishing, forestry and mining makes up just 5% of Irish GDP and employ just 8% of the workforce.

Agriculture on it own contribute just 1% of GDP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 09:13 AM

agriculture: 1.2% industry: 38.6%
services: 60.2% (2017 est.) So do you think rep of ireland could exist without europes support, bearing in mind it owes a massive debt which has not been paid back yet, and would still have to be paid back
if you do you are ill informed
In 2021, Ireland reached a balance of -9.59 billion euros. In ratio to population, this equals a new indebtedness of 1,906 euros per capita in Ireland in 2021. For comparison, the average debt per capita in the European Union in the same year was 1,787 euros.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 09:51 AM

These figures would suggest the situation is worse than you imagine. A good deal worse.


https://commodity.com/data/ireland/debt-clock/

However one should note that the figures are much improved on from 2013

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 04:20 PM

i am not a supporter of true ireland independence that would mean leaving Europe, i have a lot of criticisms of the european empire, but despite some of the little englander, little scotlander mentality on this thread about small independent countries.
I consider true independence for ireland would be an economic disaster, and i bet we would still have to pay off the european debt., empirical capitalistas are not noted for their kindness

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 05:01 PM

You're setting the bar far too high for independence, Dick. I mean, what country on earth is truly independent of all other countries? Even if a country is not bound by formal treaties or is not part of a bloc, it still depends on trade with other countries (there may be rare cases where that doesn't apply, but I can't think of any). China can't manage without selling its goods to the west (every garment I'm currently wearing was made in China). China couldn't survive without buying millions of tons of iron ore every year from Australia. Australia's economy depends on selling, among other things, millions of bottles of wine overseas (even though Aussie red wine is actually Ribena with bollocks), as well as that iron ore. Think of all those fiercely independent countries that would collapse if they couldn't export their oil and gas. There are few countries on the planet that could truly afford to stand alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 03:15 AM

independence meansamongst other things not being part of an empire.
Scotland would not be independent if it joined europe.
scottish independence in the true sense of the word would be a disaster for scotland england and wales
scotland leaving the uk and joining europe would not be disastrous for scotland but would be for england, and would create a lot more bureaucracy., and a long term conservative english government, another disaster

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 04:04 AM

The EU is not an empire. It was that sort of thinking that caused brexit.

Empire

1. An extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state.
"the Roman Empire"

2. A large commercial organization owned or controlled by one person or group.
"her business empire grew"

The EU is governed by representatives of its member states and is primarily an organisation dedicated to free trade and peaceful unity. Its member states have self governance and, as we know, can leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 06:52 AM

it is amazing how the leavers decided that free trade, cooperation and joint prosperity are a bad idea when it comes to Europe, but then realising that they need free trade and cooperation with other countries for much less prosperity, even to the extent of being less prosperity than we were benefiting from through cross European deals with other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 07:06 AM

But, but, but…”We took are cuntry back”, wibble, dribble, drool.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 07:19 AM

Back has to meanings - back as in ownership, and back as in time, so they have achieved the latter and took us, back to Victorian inequality, back to 1970s/80s inflation, back to open racism..... Need I go on?

Looks like leave voters didn't understand homonyms, and thought they were voting for the former and were promised the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 08:02 AM

Many - most? - Leave voters didn’t have a f***ing clue about the reality of what they were voting for, what the real driving-force behind the ‘Leave’ Campaign was - tax avoidance for the rich, the removal of workers’ rights and human rights, the destruction of the Trade Unions, the privatisation of the NHS, the empowerment of big business, the further enrichment of the already immensely wealthy. All happening right now.

They fell for the propaganda, the three-word slogans, the Big-Red-Bus-Bollocks, the ‘Vote Leave’ Big Lies that foreigners were (and still are) the problem, that ‘we’ had no control over our laws (they never meant the real ‘we’, the people, they meant themselves), and, the Biggest Lie of All, that by Leaving the EU the UK would somehow regain the ‘sovereignty’ that they claimed had been surrendered to the EU.

All absolute horse-shit. Never have so many been lied to and brainwashed by so few.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 06:51 PM

From the Guardian.

Plans to cut the asylum backlog by sending questionnaires to refugees instead of conducting official interviews will demand that claimants reply in English within 20 working days or risk refusal, a leaked document shows.

The Home Office will on Thursday begin sending out copies of the 11-page document to about 12,000 people from Afghanistan, Eritrea, Libya, Syria and Yemen as part of Rishi Sunak’s plans to cut the “legacy backlog” of 92,000 asylum claims.

The move is meant to speed up the process by which claims are processed so that people can be either given leave to remain in the UK or removed.

But the questionnaire, seen by the Guardian, asks more than 50 complicated questions that it says “must be completed in English” and suggests using “online translation tools” if necessary.

It goes on to say that a failure to return the document within 20 working days “may result in an individual’s asylum claim being withdrawn”.

The deadline has dismayed legal experts who say it places unreasonable demands on vulnerable people who will not be able to seek legal advice on time.

Questions that may have to be translated online into languages such as Pashto, or one of the nine official languages of Eritrea, by claimants include: “If you do fear officials in your country, is it possible to email or telephone family members or friends in your country of origin to request [identity documents] without placing yourself or them at risk?”

Another question asks: “Were you subject to human trafficking (the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of people through force, fraud or deception, with the aim of exploiting them for profit) or modern slavery (severe exploitation of other people for personal or commercial gain) during your journey to or after you arrived in the UK?”

Well done, Suella. Another fine example of your sheer humanity.

I could bloody weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 23 - 07:20 AM

Well what a terrible performance by Starmer on the Today programme this morning. Him and his "five missions," fer chrissake. I notice that he's refrained from calling them "pledges," as he knows, we know, and as Amol Rajan certainly knew, that he routinely breaks pledges. He clearly went into the interview determined to bluster his way through the twenty minutes, all big talk but almost entirely without the substance we need in order to understand how he intends to do his "missions." Amol brilliantly pinned him down several times (with very few words), which merely brought on more explosions of bullshit. Notably, Starmer blamed the pandemic and Putin for the fact that he's had to ditch his pledges, but even more notably he lacked the courage to point to the one real thing that is scuppering this country and which is already scuppering his Big Plans, brexit (of course!).

Maybe his Big Speech today will shed more light. I'm predicting that it won't, not much, and that it will be a litany of impossible aspirations. Let's see.

The more I see and hear him, the less confidence I have that he will win the next election.   His ditched pledges, his twists and turns and his inconsistencies, as well as his inability to put clear blue water between him and the Tories (which he could do by promising to negotiate a return to the single market and customs union, the arguments for which are now almost unassailable) will give the the Tories and their media friends a really easy target. All Fishy Rishi has to do is get that protocol sorted and avoid mistakes...

God, I'm miserable...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: weerover
Date: 23 Feb 23 - 09:10 AM

Starmer declared at his party conference 5 months ago, "We are a party of the centre". So why is the word "Labour" even there?

wr

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 23 - 09:44 AM

Have a big uptick from me!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 23 - 06:32 PM

Here's a below-the-line comment on the Guardian website that, to me, is sublime in its measured wisdom:

I’m one of those regarded as ‘hard left’ but I’m not, I’m just someone like millions of others who adheres to the values of our founder, Keir Hardie.

Racism and prejudice are anathema to those values - it’s one of the main reasons I was attracted to the Labour Party long before I could even vote.

In all that time, over half a century, I’ve never come across racism in any of the countless interactions I’ve had at either local or national level. I have, however, experienced high levels of horror when labour colleagues have encountered it outside the party.

The right wing media spent a fortune on the character assassination of Corbyn and following his inevitable fall he wasn’t supported by the party.

This was deeply wrong and has ostracised huge numbers of us, including the young who had been brought back into the party.

The Labour Party has historically been a broad church, a tolerant, socialist party.

It’s not factionalism we need, it’s unity - we need to set this divided nation an example and begin the process of social change.

We need, once again, to focus on our basic socialist values, not do the opposite and treat socialism as a dirty word…

…it’s the cleanest word we have.

Alleluia.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 23 - 07:55 PM

Apropos of these bloody tomato/cucumber/lettuce shortages:

I think that this situation illustrates perfectly the failure of capitalism. Let's have a look:

The growers in Spain, the Netherlands and Kent can't afford to heat their greenhouses.

They could afford to heat their greenhouses if the supermarkets were prepared to pay significantly higher prices for the produce.

But supermarkets won't do that, because they are in competition with other supermarkets. Not only that, the supermarkets have already driven down the prices they pay for produce to a point just above which the producers would squeal.

So let's suppose that supermarkets decide that we should have the produce, in order to keep the producers afloat, and because salads are healthy. Well that means they would have to put up their prices significantly. They won't do that, because, for decades, we have been paying very cheaply for our food, and it would take a massive shift in public thinking (especially in light of our energy bills) to change that mindset.

The failure of capitalism in a nutshell!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 07:00 AM

Here's two other failures of capitalism , especially free market capitalism, that I bang on about occasionally. Both are relevant to the current Turnip Troubles.

1. We over-value efficiency and under-value resilience.   With any complex system you can improve lots of its attributes at the same time when it is performing badly enough, but as you approach higher performance you have to start trading one off against the other. We have chosen that efficiency is what matters, and therefore end up with systems that are fragile. We introduce smart motorways to make them more efficient in terms of normal movement, at the cost of losing the resilience to drive past an obstruction so ending up with worse jams when jams occur. We cut an office staff down from 10, to 9, to 8 as people leave or are made redundant, and end up with an office that just can't do its job when one more person is sick or otherwise absent. We say that NHS pay rises must in part be funded by "efficiency improvements" with no thought on how that impact resilience of the NHS, which is effectively what the nurses and doctors are talking about with staff shortages and rota concerns. Free marketeers rail against 'protectionism' but that is often a way that a country becomes or retains resilience.

2. There is a well-worn maxim that "the market will provide" but that omits the caveats "but not necessarily rapidly enough to be of use to you or to avoid collapses, outages or whatever."   There is an assumption that we will simply be able to buy in whatever we wish, be it tomatoes or skills, and the world is simply not that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 07:03 AM

"simply not that simple". Oh dear.

"just more complex than that" perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 08:06 AM

Simply not that simple sounds fine to me :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 10:48 AM

I am still working through Michel Barnier's book "My Secret Brexit Diary" which are his account of the events as seen from the EU perspective. I have just finished the section where May had reached agreement with the EU on the way forward, then the DUP refused to accept it and everything had to be thought out again (and again, and again...)

A prediction for Monday, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 11:40 AM

time for more people to grow their own, lettuces and tomatoesand cucumbers do not require large gardens to grow

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 12:00 PM

The economy is doing better than the OBR predicted. There could be a deal with the EU soon. He's dividing and ruling by talking to the nurses. The NHS has avoided total collapse over the winter. Fuel prices are gently subsiding.

Look out, Sir Keir. Your vote is soft, your inconsistencies are being talked up and events are coming to get you...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 01:23 PM

I don;t think any serious commentator expects the current gap between the parties to stay as wide as it is. Of course, the Conservatives will do all they can to narrow it.

But don't see whatever happens on Monday narrowing the gap.   Agreement or not, the divisions in the Conservative party are going to be exposed yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 02:14 PM

He reminds me of Ramsay Macdonald
After 1931, MacDonald was repeatedly and bitterly denounced by the Labour movement as a traitor to its cause., IMO he was corrupted. Starmer is another quisling, who will be cast aside by the establishment after he has been used by them

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 06:31 AM

Toby Helm in the Guardian:

...senior Tory MPs – including many from the old Eurosceptic right of the party – are beginning to sense some hope under Rishi Sunak, at the very point the prime minister appears in greatest trouble, and believe a turning point could be approaching.

They say there are opportunities in the coming weeks for the prime minister to face down internal opponents and to assert his authority over – and define himself against – his trouble-causing predecessor but one, Boris Johnson.

The former Brexit secretary David Davis, who is critical of the way Johnson is kicking off about the Northern Ireland protocol deal that he negotiated at No 10, said: “I think that if Rishi Sunak gets an agreement on the protocol and that if the budget next month is less austere than is currently being telegraphed, then these could be the first signs that he is coming out of the storms. If that happens we would still have a one in three chance of winning the next election.”

An interesting week coming up. Starmer is no Blair...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 06:41 AM

I agree there are opportunities coming up and in the interests of the Conservative Party Sunak should take them. He really does have the chance to split the ERG and so consign it to oblivion.

But my expectation is he will not. It may happen some Brexiteers vote one way and some the other, but I think Sunak is more likely to sigh a breath of relief and move on, rather than take the change to really exert his authority over them and, for example, remove the whip from those who vote against him.

It will be interesting to see what Johnson does.

As you imply, Steve, I think there will be a strategy of presenting here on in as having turned a corner. But there are still Trusses and Johnsons and their supporters about, not to mention the DUP. Will power be restored in Stormont? We will see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 09:20 AM

The Guardian, the voice of the Liberal party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 10:40 AM

What's the "Liberal party?"

I have a feeling that Johnson is out to scupper Fishy Rishi so that he will get his job back once the election is lost. There could be a flaw in that strategy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 12:31 PM

Seems as though Johnson has opened his big mouth and put his foot in it once again…

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-biden-brexit-eu-deal-row-b2289792.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 06:31 PM

I demand that Biden makes a grovelling written apology to me for allowing johnson (born is his country) to bring my country in disrepute.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 03:28 AM

Shaw
The liberal party,is an abbreviation of the Lib Dems, the Guardian is a lib Dem newspaper,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 03:41 AM

Steve Shaw the voice of the lib dems

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 05:31 AM

"The liberal party,is an abbreviation of the Lib Dem's"

Strange. "Liberal party" contains twelve letters whereas "Lib Dems" contained seven, yet the former is an "abbreviation" of the latter...?

Ps. Hope you don't mind about my removing your incorrect apostrophe... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 07:06 AM

Steve, what you do does not interest me, you are not of any importance to me whatsoever

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 07:12 AM

Who let the children in?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 07:47 AM

I always thought it was your Donuel and my Dick, Steve but it now seems you have a Donuel and a Dick. Commiserations

Sorry John. I can't help it at times :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 08:02 AM

Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Arlene Foster are all going into massive hissy fits because Ursula is meeting the King. Looks like someone's doing something right. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 08:16 AM

you can't fool all the people all the time which is why Steve and Dave don't impress me as the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 08:31 AM

Just piss off out of this thread. I tried to turn it back to the topic and here you are having a nice little troll. Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 08:47 AM

Anyone who pisses The Haunted Pencil, Haddock Face, and Mrs Foster off is alright in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 08:54 AM

Would I be correct to say that the Liberal Party and the Liberal Democrats are two entirely separate entities?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 08:59 AM

You caught me out there, Raggytash! The history of the Liberal Part(ies) is complicated but I had naively assumed they were the same. However WIkipedia informs me:

The Liberal Party is a liberal political party in the United Kingdom that was founded in 1989 as a continuation of the original Liberal Party (founded in 1859) by former members who opposed its merger with the Social Democratic Party (SDP) to form the Liberal Democrats. The party holds eleven local council seats. The party promotes a hybrid of both classical and social liberal tendencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 09:28 AM

that is correct but effectively their policies are very similiar.the original liberal party do not have one single MP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 09:35 AM

You'll need photo ID in order to vote in the council elections in May. The rules for what ID you'll need are much stricter for the young (mainly Labour: no university ID, no young person's travel card allowed) than for the elderly (mainly Tory: Oyster card and bus passes, fine, even out-of date passports...)

You can apply for "free" voter ID if you're one of the two million who probably haven't got the correct photo ID. Two issues there: first, it's only "free" if you discount the added bureaucracy of printing stuff off/postage/travelling to pick it up, etc. Oh, and the taxpayer will, of course, pick up the tab for this scheme. Second, the publicity has been next to nil. So far, only 21,000 out of that two million have applied.

Ostensibly, this scheme is to prevent voting fraud. Well, between 2010 and 2018, there were (wait for it...) TWO convictions for voter fraud. As someone in a below-the-line comment in the Guardian pointed out, far more Tory MPs than that are charged with sexual assault...

Of course, the real point of the scheme is to make it harder for poorer people to vote Labour. Democracy at its best!

If this shambles of a government really wanted just to tighten up the voting system, they could ask voters to turn up with the polling card that everyone receives. Personally, I don't think even that is necessary, but at least everyone would be treated equally and the cost would be nil.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 09:50 AM

Let's try to get this right. The current "Liberal Party" was founded in 1989 and is not the original Liberal Party. The original Liberal Party joined ranks with the Social Democrats to form the LibDems. The 1989 Liberal Party is a relatively recent breakaway group, which has never had any clout. I wish I could say the same about the opportunist LibDems.

Shenanigans over names and name-changes matter not a jot in all this. Leopards can change their spots only by wearing a differently-spotted overcoat, but it's the same old leopard underneath (less kindly, you can put lipstick on Boris Johnson, but he's still a pig). Labour added "New" to its name in the 1990s not because it was a new party but because it wanted to sound thrusting and modern. It worked, for a while at least. But it don't work no more...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 10:09 AM

"Sterling leaped 0.7% higher to 1.20 US dollars and was 0.3% up at 1.14 euros after a government source said prime minister Rishi Sunak and European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen had signed a breakthrough deal at a meeting in Windsor, Berkshire."

Well, that serves me right for ordering some Euros at the weekend for a trip to Munich next week!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 10:20 AM

I'm sitting on a stash of euros (nearly two grands'-worth!) that I bought before the pandemic and brexit shenanigans. I'm hoping to use some on a trip to Sicily this summer. They're on my Caxton prepaid card and, whilst I know they're getting me no interest there (for most of the intervening time interest rates have been rock-bottom anyway), I comfort meself that I bought most of them when I could get €1.25 or €1.30 to the pound!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 10:24 AM

The low take up of voter ID registration - a step closer to a being a state where having and showing on demand 'your papers' to the police while going about daily business - is a concern which can only be addressed if local electoral officers employ a team to go door to door with their laptops and ensure/assist every householder to secure ID. Then councils will need to decide which vulnerable adults will lose their care packages, which libraries/other amenities would have to be closed, etc to pay for this - a democratic RIGHT to vote must always come before a social need for services.

If the government were really interested in reducing voter fraud then why are there not measure to ensure that postal voters (which tend to have a greater take up from tory voters) have to show their ID before putting their crosses on the form, putting the form in the envelope and putting the envelope in the post box. There are so many more opportunities for voter fraud: coercion by a householder, wilful; destruction of a voter form by another person, theft of postal ballots by postal workers, etc. All of which cannot happen in a polling station.

There are other issues, of course. How much someone's appearance has changed since a photo was taken, forged ID documents, will people who turn 18 on or near polling day be able to get their proof of ID in time, backlogs in processing (if passport applications are anything to go by), loss/theft of an ID document close to polling day. Polling officers not giving voters the benefit of the doubt if they do not look enough like their photograph.

Another issue is how do voters prove the identity when they ask for proof of identity? If no proof is required, how would that prevent voter fraud?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 11:10 AM

Steve Shaw, my point was that The Guardian is a supporter of the lib dems., whose policies are much the same as the other liberal party
I agree that it is sad that the labour party have not had a newspaper since the daily herald that supports them, but that is an inditement of uk democracy, as was the uneven funding of the brexit campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 11:20 AM

Steve and Dave don't impress me as the sharpest knife in the drawer

Which one of us? Or is it both? We need to know who is being insulted so we can take offence accordingly!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 11:21 AM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 11:56 AM

And which Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 12:01 PM

Backwoodsman, you have caught me out for not keeping up with current affairs - maybe I should buy the 'Eye' from time to time to know whose who. The first is obvious, though. Is the second who I refer to as coffee-dregs, no idea who the third is and why.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 01:00 PM

SPB - all named in Steve’s post of 08:02 AM today - Rees-Mogg, Farage, and Arlene Foster. Three perfect examples of much of what is wrong with our politics today, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 04:29 PM

Faridge is, politicly, a nobody who has been confined to the depths of nobodiness, but unfortunately has this habit of suffusing tv and radio interviews and panels like vomit does to fresh air.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 04:57 PM

So Fishy Sunak looks like getting his deal through, and Labour will back it. His next step is to get enough support from erstwhile Tory rebels to be able to get it done without Labour's help. That would be a major coup. Both his rebels and the antediluvian DUP know that to not let this pass would be electoral suicide. I think Labour are going to need more than "missions."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 23 - 03:40 AM

What do people make of this line that less than 3% of EU laws will apply in NI? Laws don't add up numerically like that: a single law might have a massive impact where even combining hundreds together might be negligible for NI of they are on citrus fruit and olive oil production. Aslo, are we talking about those laws where the EU has a rule that has not been incorporated into UK law? For example, the UK rights on maternity leave are (currently!) more generous than the EU minimum. NI follows the UK law, I believe. Does this mean the EU law is 'not being followed'. Even though, since the EU rule says it must be at or above a given standard, so it is?

And is there legal dodging going on distinguishing laws, rules and directives?

In short, what does 'only 3%' mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Feb 23 - 06:29 AM

get o LBC now, listen to James o'Brien positively gleeful at the govt suggestion that NI now has the best trade deal in the world. right. so can't england have it? and of course -scotland? could be a very significant boast, rishi? is he 'high on his own supply' (J O'B)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Feb 23 - 07:25 AM

by the way, is there a record of how many days mophead has spent working for his constituents in uxbridge in the last year? or how many days he has worked for himself in/for ukraine?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Feb 23 - 09:10 AM

I would not normally recommend an excursion to the GBNews web site, but it is very amusing that they seem to have no article at all about the Windsor deal.

Odd, for a news site, but there you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 23 - 02:22 AM

In my humble opinion this is one of the best articles on Brexit I have read in years.

I have had no end of discussions where people flip back and forth between Brexit as an event in Jan 21 and an ongoing process. Where purity is more important than reality.

The only thing I disagree with is a bit tongue in cheek. When he says "It is impossible to sit in the Treasury without coming to a rational understanding that the national interest demands harmonious relations with Brussels" we can all think of a chancellor who didn't manage that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Mar 23 - 03:18 AM

I gave up watching "Question Time" shortly after Dimbleby left, but with the Windsor Framework the obvious hot topic of the week I thought I would see what they had to say.

I am afraid it really just confirmed my prejudices. Despite the new agreement and despite Sunak's exact quotations being read to them and despite a very clear indication from the audience that they were not at all happy with how Brexit has been implemented, the panellists simply refused to engage with the question or the agreement, just parroting what they have been saying since 2016. The chair did challenge them a bit - more than I expected, to be honest - but once they declined to respond to her point, she just let them carry on.

I am afraid it is back in the 'pointless' box for a few more years.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 23 - 04:02 AM

I gave up on question time when people like Farage were allowed to use it to spread their venom. I cannot afford to keep replacing TVs that have had bricks thrown through the screen

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Mar 23 - 06:56 AM

”I gave up on question time when people like Farage were allowed to use it to spread their venom.”

Me too, Dave. Since 2015 or so I seldom waste time watching it - bad for my blood-pressure!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 23 - 11:03 AM

65% of Uk citizens want a Brexit referendum do over. It's a Regretzit.
Your economy has sunk below Russia. Brexit came about through an ordinary vilification of people who had the feeling they had no authority, they had no voice When they were given a binary choice they saw a button that said fuck off the establishment and many people pressed it. Because of the fact that the government doesn't ultimately act in accordance with its ordinary citizens in much the same way as it does in America the protest vote was a fool's errand. People are disillusioned and dissatisfied. Britain wasn't great before during or after Brexit. I can understand why people are disillusioned by centralized bureaucracy. The ongoing condemnation of ordinary people is not helpful. Banks, Big Pharma and the industrial corporate military complex is the system we have and sustains itself to our sacrifice. Sure one party may be slightly better than the other one but they both feed the same systematic bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 23 - 11:41 AM

Hmm. Maybe you have to live here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 23 - 05:11 PM

Everyplace has its bubbles

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Mar 23 - 06:09 PM

How deprived we must seem to Donuel here in the UK without spray on cheese, ridiculous gun laws and State condoned murder. Now, with the price of US visas, I guess I'll just have to stay here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Mar 23 - 06:29 PM

Stanron, in another age you could be my hero. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Mar 23 - 05:28 AM

Seen on the ‘Sheffield for Europe’ FB Page today…

”Seven years ago, I kicked a massive hole in my fence to make myself feel better about the integrity of my garden. My plants died. My neighbours called me stupid, so I stopped talking to them.

Today, I fixed part of the fence. Not all, just part.

I’m now describing this as a triumph.”

Really puts the supreme idiocy of Johnson’s ‘Oven-ready Brexit’ into full focus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Mar 23 - 05:30 AM

Should have been, ‘Really puts the supreme idiocy of Johnson’s ‘Oven-ready Brexit’, and the arrogance and dishonesty of the current government, into full focus’.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 23 - 05:31 PM

Aargh! Can't access that "Football - not the US kind" thread, so this one will have to do:


Ahem:


Liverpool 7 Manchester United 0


And I will neither duck nor get me coat!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 23 - 08:16 PM

You're very quiet, Raggytash...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Mar 23 - 02:21 AM

Oh Steve, husband came flying through from his study with a face of doom, to tell me this result. He's been an ardent fan of ManU for decades (even when he lived in Africa). My first gift to him all those years ago was a ManU shirt and sports bag when we met up in Accra. He also supports Norwich City FC, and at least they beat Millwall 3-2.
However, being a real football tart, he's just taken delivery of a Chelsea tracksuit merely because 'he likes the colour'!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Mar 23 - 03:27 AM

I’m quoting from a friend’s FB feed here, I’m not naming the source because I don’t have permission, but it’s absolutely right on the button…

The whole Sue Gray thing…

In business, people go from one company to a competitor all the time. It is perfectly possible to switch roles, allegiances, etc in the professional context without it being any indicator of dodgy integrity! It’s called work. You know, that thing the majority of us do for most of our life to earn an honest day’s pay? (Because, Boris, normal people don’t have wealthy backers who can lend us £800k every so often.)

It’s about seeking interesting roles and intellectual challenge rather than sacrificing personal integrity in a pointless attempt to protect yours, Boris. You were singing her praises last year and now you’re trying to smear her! Just be quiet!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 06 Mar 23 - 04:18 AM

Steve,
This thread is supposed to be about politics, not religion!

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Mar 23 - 06:04 AM

Doug, do we really want to go into a long debate about the separation (or lack of) between church and state - though this probably would be more relevant to US politics than UK politics.

In terms of football results, a would suggest this has less to do with religious cultism and more to do with tribalism - and that could have relevance to the state we find the country in today.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Mar 23 - 09:09 AM

Okay, if the round ball game has to be mentioned:

Here's to Wrexham who (partly thanks to McElhenney & Reynolds) are currently in a good lead in the national league.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Mar 23 - 09:41 AM

The Wrexham miracle belongs to the players and fans. Not the owners.
Almost similar to the States you have one party that is an outrageous bald-faced liar and another party that leaves out key essential truths.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 23 - 09:42 AM

John, stop going off-topic by trying to stay on-topic!

I think we're waiting for Sue Gray all over again...

Anyway, Boris want to make his dad Stanley a knight. That would be the Stanley who smacked Caroline Nokes firmly on the bottom at the Tory conference 20 years ago. There's even talk of Carrie getting some sort of gong. God, what fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Mar 23 - 11:28 AM

I am not sure "waiting for Sue Gray" adequately describes the going-on in the House of Commons at this very moment. From the fury, some of the Conservatives might not make it out of the chamber without having a heart attack.

Which of them was it who said "calm down, dear" (quoting tha advertisement)?

It would be good advice to follow themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Mar 23 - 12:57 PM

”From the fury, some of the Conservatives might not make it out of the chamber without having a heart attack”

You’re making a very rash assumption there, that some of them have hearts, DMcG. Not, by any stretch of the imagination, a certainty!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Mar 23 - 03:22 AM

So the government are now redefining illegal. people of Britain take heart if you are every up before a judge; all you have to say in your defence is that you haven't actually broken any laws but just pushed the boundaries. If it is good enough for the government, it is good enough for the entire population.

I am also concerned about the narrative that requiring agencies to go against international human rights law will be taking us a step closer to fascism and any individual who obeys the government's orders in the line of their work will face a long prison term. Obeying order that violate international law must not be allowed as a defence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Mar 23 - 09:27 AM

There is no easy way of dealing with it. I certainly don't know how it can be done. I have said before that I don't think I could do the job of an immigration officer, deciding who can and who cannot stay in the UK. I also do not think we can have unlimited immigration either. So how do we proceed?

It is not just the UK who are trying to work out what can be done. The EU is also trying to find a better way of dealing with it. Their ideas do not include letting more people in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Mar 23 - 09:37 AM

The first part of my previous post was lost.

Yet again we have more talk from ministers playing to the gallery. They have been doing so for the last 13 years. Before that we had Labour trying to deal with it.The numbers keep increasing despite their talk.

Far easier to spout shite to the press rather than find a way to actually deal with and ease the problem.

There are no easy solutions.

I certainly don't have one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Mar 23 - 11:00 AM

The first thing is not to conflate immigration with asylum. There is no such thing as illegally seeking asylum, but not seeking asylum upon arrival or remaining after an asylum application is rejected and all channels of appeal are exhausted would constitute illegal immigration.

What is a grave concern is if routes to asylum are closed off then this would just result in an increase in undocumented arrivals who would fall prey to people smugglers, modern slavery, sexual exploitation or organised crime.

another thing to bear in mind is calling immigration problematic is rhetoric. If anything our economy benefits from this and it enriches our society. The issues which government needs to get to grips with are housing/planning policy, particularly related to suburban and rural communities which puts pressure on inner cities, and economic development strategies that, for example, centralise financial services establishments, putting pressure on housing and transport infrastructure where the labour force is needed most. How many social housing estates are there in places like Henley or Chalfont?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Mar 23 - 11:18 AM

"another thing to bear in mind is calling immigration problematic is rhetoric."

Yep, and even worse, calling human beings "illegal immigrants" or "illegals" is downright racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Mar 23 - 01:25 AM

Matt’s cartoon in The Telegraph…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Mar 23 - 01:47 AM

In order to get my husband legal entry and residence to the UK, I had to spend a vast amount of money. He had to visit the British Embassy in Ghana several times despite living in Ivory Coast (civil war there and the UK embassy had decamped). So I flew out from Gatwick and flew him across to Ghana. Then we had to mount an Appeal, through the Immigration Advisory Service, costing £1400. I had to travel down to London to attend the appeal. His Citizenship lessons ('Life In The UK' test preparation) cost more money. It was £100 for the actual Citizenship ceremony. Finally, he became a pukka UK citizen, but it had taken two years of stress and expense.
Now, landing here on our shores in an inflatable boat and expecting to walk around unchallenged seems to me to be unacceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Mar 23 - 08:18 PM

The small-boat talk from this government has combined naked racism with naked populism. Stop the boats. Get brexit done. Take back control. Ah, the populist power of the three-word slogan. The Tories know that stopping "foreigners" from "coming in" is very popular with the people in this country. Let's face it, they have very little else that might garner support, so they milk it for what it's worth, and to hell with the risk that the rhetoric is racist (which it is, in spades). No matter that we take far fewer refugees than most other developed, and many less than developed, countries. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown was wonderful on Question Time tonight. She cut through all the bullshit of the two Tories on the panel to say that, all this bloody verbiage, have we forgotten that we're talking about human beings here? (paraphrase only...) At last three of the audience members had a far better grip of what's going on than Ken Clarke, Jenrick and the utterly forgettable Labour woman.

So what is it with Labour with all this? Do we get a real opposition that calls the Tories out for their racism and xenophobia? Why no, we don't. "You tried it last year and it was a shambles. If you try it again it'll be a shambles ..." so where's the outright attack on the Tory ideology? Where's the perfectly justified accusation of racism? Where are the GUTS??

I could bloody weep. And I'm still a member...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 02:45 AM

Yebbut

LABOUR ANTISEMITISM!!!

Just think how bad it would be if Corbyn was leader

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 03:52 AM

You have people trying to enter this country by crossing the Channel in small boats. I think that we can all agree that this is not a safe thing to do.

It appears that those arriving this way are paying criminal gangs for their passage. I think we can agree that this is not a good thing.

It is reported that some of those arriving this way do not have any documentation with them. Why is that?

They set off from France. How did they get to France? Have they already claimed refugee status in another EU country?

It was reported last month that there were 160,000 people here in the UK awaiting for their refugee status to be denied or confirmed. No doubt that will include most of the over 40,000 who arrived by boat last year. It also seems that the majority of those 160,000 will eventually be allowed to remain in the UK.

I can understand why people want to come to the UK. For all we might moan about it, this is still a good country to come to. I think that most would agree that we have to have some sort of control over who is allowed to enter and for how long they can stay. The rest of the world operates in much the same way.

How then do we deal with it? I have said before that I don't think I could do a job that decided who stays and who goes.

Iive in Dover. I know people who work for Border Force and people who work for refugee charities. I know people who volunteer for the RNLI. In fact the current situation has brought jobs to this part of the South East.

Now we have the latest so called solution from the Tories. I will be surprised if it makes much difference. We shall wait and see. I don't have a 'solution'. I cannot say that i have seen any sensible answer so far.

The end of last year I went for a walk on the seafront. It was the morning after a boat sank in the channel and there were fears many lives had been lost. The pier and part of the seafront had been closed by the authorities. They had been expecting to bring in the bodies of those that had drowned. As it turned out, there were fewer casualties than expected.

As I walked back I noticed a guy with his child in a pushchair, out for a walk. He had not been able to walk along the closed pier so he headed in the direction from where i had just come. I stopped him and pointed out that area was also closed. He asked me why and I told him what I thought the reason was. He had not heard the news. He thanked me and we both went on our way.

The guy was not from the UK. As I walked away I felt a bit guilty. There was the two of us, 3 if you include his child, out for a walk on a cold, sunny morning, while out there in the channel people were searching for the bodies of some poor souls.

I still don't know the best way to 'deal' with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 04:00 AM

Dealing quickly and efficiently with asylum applications would be a good start. Instead this government prefer to turn those seeking asylum into scapegoats for their own ineptitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 04:47 AM

It’s Tory gaslighting and the start of 2024 electioneering - nothing more, nothing less - to impress the DM, DE, Scum, and Torygraph readers.

I’m just waiting for the ‘Anti-semitism’ horse-shit to begin - then we’ll know the Tory Election Campaign has begun in earnest.

Anybody else see cone-head ‘Honest Jim’ Cleverley bullshitting as usual on BBC Breakfast this morning? Made me want to vomit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 05:17 AM

The policy will only prevent those who come over in boats from seeking asylum and ensuring that people are in a safe environment until their asylum claim is assessed.

All the government policy will do is ensure that people arriving will be more likely to fall into the hands of organised criminals, people smugglers, modern slavery, and sexual exploitation.

the numbers will most likely still be their, but will not exist in any official capacity, so the tories will wave the numbers around and claim how successful their policy is.

Of course those who are actively seeking asylum and granted refugee status will be those who will be blamed from any increase in the crime rate through organised gangs who exploit undocumented arrivals that slip below the system.

This makes me wonder where the torys' 'dark money' comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 05:28 AM

"Cleverly opposes Essex immigration centre as he urges French to do more
Foreign secretary says former RAF base in his constituency is unsuitable as he enters Paris talks about stopping Channel boats"

While the Illegal Immigration Bill is morally foul, it is also completely impractical. Braverman tells us more immigrations centres will be built. Expect every Tory MP to agree with Cleverly: Yes, of course, but not in my constituency."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 05:42 AM

Documents, Rain Dog? And what documents do you suppose refugees in overcrowded small boats might have? Suppose they did have documents. Would you care to tell us how that might help the situation?

I should like to robustly defend Gary Lineker on a couple of fronts. First, he is not a political correspondent, a Newsnight interviewer or a newsreader. As far as I'm concerned, he is as fully entitled to exercise free speech to as everyone else. Of course, using our right to free speech exposes us all to potential praise, ridicule or condemnation, which is as it should be if we do believe in free speech. But these scurrilous attempts to have him gagged, reprimanded or sacked for saying something outside of the BBC and unconnected with football, or remarks that his comments are "unacceptable," are simply confected Tory outrage. Second, you don't have to agree with him, though if you examine his comment about thirties Germany a bit more closely there are plenty of parallels, particularly with regard to the demonising of people who "don't fit." That regime also found ways of denying citizenship (ring a bell?) and getting certain sections of people in his country characterised as non-persons. All of that pandered to a population that was easily manipulated, after years of privation and the global depression, into finding someone to blame. Ring any more bells? What he was saying was meant as a warning as to how things could go if we don't wake up. Entirely valid, in my view, though no-one's saying you have to agree in part or whole, and his language was calm and measured (he didn't inflame matters by using the words "Nazi" or "Hitler," for example).

Finally, there's the gobsmacking hypocrisy of his Tory critics who will do anything to besmirch anyone seen as a bit leftie, or, of course, the BBC. The hallowed Tory-donor chairman of the Beeb was a political appointment, made by the man for whom the said appointee had just fixed up an eight hundred grand loan. Mudcat is a family show, folks, so mild swearwords only, please...

(However, I'm having to internalise some slightly more vicious swearwords when I contemplate the utterly toothless response of Labour to all this. I'm still weeping and I'm still a member. I'm questioning my own sanity here...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics -
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 06:11 AM

In the early 1980s I bought a small paperback book called In A Dark Time (published in an era in which the dread of a potential nuclear war was palpable, but the book's still highly relevant today). The book was one of snippets, quotes and poems. One chapter was called "Words." It showed how the words we choose to use can be instruments of manipulation. In the present context, the repetition of certain words and phrases by politicians are often attempts to manipulate. Some are just annoying: if I hear Starmer et al. burbling on about how the Tories have only "sticking plaster" solutions, well I have this big box of ping-pong balls to chuck at the telly... but some are more insidious. "Refugees" are replaced by "asylum seekers" (so, rather than running away from something awful, they're coming here to get something). "Illegal immigrants:" well I was born a human being, just like every one of those people in the boats. I might have done a few illegal things (my speeding points have just expired, actually), but I'm not an illegal person. No-one could ever have helped being born, with the possible exception of Jesus, so we can't be illegal people. OK, we could use those expressions carelessly, but we should beware of allowing them to become embedded. "Criminal gangs" is a form of words I won't use, mainly because I won't talk Tory talk, but also because it's a woolly way of describing people I know nothing about (and neither does Sue Ellen Braverman). I notice that the Patels and Bravermen of this world steer away (hypocritically) of referring to "foreigners." I wonder why. Then there's those three-word slogans. I suppose the Tories think that the gullible British public can't cope with more than three words at a time. So it has to be "Take back control!" or "Get brexit done!" or "Stop the boats!"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 07:10 AM

Cruella really is a nasty piece of shit. Her latest '100 Million are coming here' aimed at winding up the gammons and racists that voted for brexit is rubustly refuted by Full Fact. An organisation I recommend everyone has bookmarked on their browsers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 07:35 AM

Imagine that you are the Home Secretary. How would you deal with the situation?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 07:35 AM

Just heard on the wireless:

An autistic Muslim lad takes a Koran into school on a dare. The lad who scuffed up the Koran gets a criminal record, which will follow him around (and affect his job prospects) for life; those who issued death threats get councelling.

England seems to be going back to the mindset of the 18th Century, where property was more valued than life.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 07:43 AM

I think I have answered that one Rain Dog. A good start would be to ensure fast and efficient processing of applications.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 07:53 AM

”Refugees" are replaced by "asylum seekers" (so, rather than running away from something awful, they're coming here to get something). "Illegal immigrants:" well I was born a human being, just like every one of those people in the boats. I might have done a few illegal things (my speeding points have just expired, actually), but I'm not an illegal person. No-one could ever have helped being born, with the possible exception of Jesus, so we can't be illegal people. OK, we could use those expressions carelessly, but we should beware of allowing them to become embedded. "Criminal gangs" is a form of words I won't use, mainly because I won't talk Tory talk, but also because it's a woolly way of describing people I know nothing about (and neither does Sue Ellen Braverman). I notice that the Patels and Bravermen of this world steer away (hypocritically) of referring to "foreigners." I wonder why. Then there's those three-word slogans. I suppose the Tories think that the gullible British public can't cope with more than three words at a time. So it has to be "Take back control!" or "Get brexit done!" or "Stop the boats!"

Amen to all of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 08:03 AM

Am I the only one who perceives a delicious, whilst at the same time vomit-inducing, irony in seeing and hearing past immigrants, or at least the progeny of past immigrants, at the top of government - Fishy Sunak, Cruella Braverman, cone-head ‘Honest Jim’ Cleverley, et al - railing against those who wish to immigrate to the UK currently, and trying to justify their racism by claiming ‘it’s what the people (of the UK) want, and expect of us’?

What a f**king bunch of A-holes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 08:21 AM

MaJoC are you sure about that?

The radio was on but i was not really listening to it. I did look up the story though.

From the BBC

Police speak to child about death threats after Quran damaged at Wakefieldschool

"Police said they had investigated a report of a "malicious communications offence". A force spokesperson added: "A suspect was identified, who was also a child, and they were given words of advice by an officer."

The force added they recorded the damage done to the religious text as a "hate incident" but officers were satisfied "no criminal offences were committed"."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 09:25 AM

Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance: Herself it was who listened to the wireless programme ("Antisocial": Radio 4, 12:00 GMT today), and summarised it at me, fortissimo. By the time I got there, the discussion had moved on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 11:43 AM

The BBC have announced that Gary Lineker is to ‘step back from presenting Match of the Day, until agreement is reached on SM use’.

He tweeted his comment on his private, personal Twitter a/c, nothing to do with the BBC or Match of the Day. What more proof do we need that the BBC is the Tories’ mouthpiece, and that the top-brass are the Tories’ puppets?

It stinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 12:02 PM

And now the BBC is refusing to show an episode of Sir David Attenborough’s new series on British wildlife because of ‘fears of a Right Wing backlash’. Dear Dog in Heaven, WTF is going on in our country?

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2023/mar/10/david-attenborough-bbc-wild-isles-episode-rightwing-backlash-fears

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 12:45 PM

The BBC is running scared of the right-wing farming/ landowner lobby, the battle troops of the Tories. Farmers, among the biggest environmental vandals on earth.

Ian Wright is refusing to do Match Of The Day tomorrow in solidarity with Gary Lineker. Let's have lots more protesting voices from the decent people we still have in the country. Come on, Micah Richards and Alan Shearer...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 12:50 PM

What's going on in this country, John, is the rapid erosion of democracy, and we are not hearing the voice of protest from the opposition. Trump is likely to be the next US president and I'm still not convinced that the Tories are a lost cause. Just imagine... Or let's stop imagining and bloody wake up...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 12:56 PM

Well it seems that Lineker is not too bothered about keeping his BBC job.

I am not sure about Paolo Di Canio being the new presenter of Match of the Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 01:36 PM

The BBC needs to bloody grow a pair. So does Starmer. A couple of Labour terms would seal the Beeb's safety. Yours sincerely, Steve, up here in cloud cuckoo land.

It seems that the Daily Telegraph is the main anti-BBC yappy dog. On the side of the farming lobby and the grousemoor boys. Kill off the birds and insects, why not. Ruinously degrade tens of thousands of acres of upland so that a few entitled men wearing very stupid pants can shoot at birds that are five times as intelligent as they are. No problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 01:43 PM

And well done Alan Shearer! Now come on, Micah...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 03:03 PM

Does anyone know if there’s any truth in the rumour that tomorrow night’s ‘Match of the Day’ is to be hosted by Laura Kuenssberg and Fiona Bruce? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 03:57 PM

Micah has come out in support, as has Gary Neville (though he doesn't do MOTD), as has the wonderful Alex Scott and Mark Chapman, who does the Sunday MOTD. Well done Beeb for kowtowing to the Tory hard right and shitting in your own bed. At least I can watch Liverpool demolishing Bournemouth at lunchtime tomorrow on BT Sport. Dunno what the Beeb will do about MOTD tomorrow, but it's going to take some bloody imagination I should think. I think I'd better start a boycott (though I imagine it's already been done...)

I know some of you buggers don't appreciate footie in the same way as me, and all power to your elbows for that. But fer chrissake there's a principle at stake here...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 04:31 PM

So they're going to do MOTD without presenters. Just show the footie clips. Well that is not Match of the Day, is it. Idiots.

From Jeremy Corbyn on Twitter:

Well done
@GaryLineker
for standing up for refugees.

Well done
@IanWright
for showing the meaning of solidarity.

Now, let's mobilise against a politics of cruelty, and defeat this inhumane, illegal & immoral legislation.

One of those incredibly decent people I was talking about. Would he (unlike Starmer) have said the same had he still been leader? Of course he would!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 07:30 PM

Richard Ayre, former controller of editorial policy at the BBC, who also served as a member of the regulator Ofcom's content board, said the corporation had "no choice" but to take action against Lineker after his tweets criticising the government's asylum policy.
Speaking to BBC Radio 4's PM programme, he said: "I think it was inevitable. He [Lineker] has the letters BBC written across his forehead and yet he's plunged right into the most controversial story of the day."
He said BBC Director General Tim Davie had "clearly tried" to reach an agreement with Lineker but failed, adding: "It's inevitable now that having in effect not sacked him but removed him temporarily at least, the BBC will now come under a torrent of criticism saying it's acting under the government's behest."
A Labour source told the BBC that the corporation should "rethink their decision".
It said: "The BBC's cowardly decision to take Gary Lineker off air is an assault on free speech in the face of political pressure.
"Tory politicians lobbying to get people sacked for disagreeing with government policies should be laughed at, not pandered to. The BBC should rethink their decision."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 08:26 PM

So basically Ayre is saying that if you work for the BBC you are not allowed to call out what borders on neo-naziism? Maybe he is hoping to get a job working for the daily mail

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 08:28 PM

Sorry, that was posted by accident before I had the chance to check it out and comment on bits of it. I got it from the BBC news website. I suppose the main thing in the extract is the rather beige response from Labour. Oh well.

I note that the following bigwigs have all come out in support of Gary: Emily Maitlis, Jon Sopel, Tim Farron, Nicola Sturgeon and ( wait for it...) Jeremy Clarkson.

What a bloody mess. Oh, by the way, Tim Davie, the BBC Director General, is a true-blue Tory who makes no mystery of his right-wing predilections. That's on top of the chairman, a donor to the Tory Party and the facilitator of a massive loan to Boris Johnson. Well who'd have thought it. No wonder they don't like Gary. As for me, I won't be watching the farce that will masquerade as Match Of The Day. Unless, of course, Gary is at the helm. I've seen it more than suggested...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 08:41 PM

We're talking about the establishment vs. us, SPB. When you consider the right-wing hegemony at the top of the Beeb, plus the demonisation of the BBC by this government, it isn't hard to see where all this is going: the Beeb's voice eviscerated, the corporation chopped into bits, British culture destroyed. Nobody there in high places to fight back. Why would lackeys bother to fight back?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Mar 23 - 09:22 PM

The BBC is required, by its charter, to provide impartial news/views.

Mr Walker's crisps avoided that requirement!

BBC Charter

If the BBC becomes a mouthpiece for the extreme left (or the extreme right) then it is failing in its charter requirements, and its public funding is called into question.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Mar 23 - 02:33 AM

”Richard Ayre, former controller of editorial policy at the BBC, who also served as a member of the regulator Ofcom's content board, said the corporation had "no choice" but to take action against Lineker after his tweets criticising the government's asylum policy.”

Lineker didn’t ‘criticise the government’s asylum policy’, he criticised some of the language being used by the proponents of that policy. Not the same thing, not the same thing at all.

And his tweet was made on his personal Twitter account, not his BBC one. He spoke as a private individual, not in the BBC’s name. Nit-picking defenders of the indefensible please take careful note.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Mar 23 - 02:58 AM

Well I would have to disagree with you there. I think it is safe to say that he did criticise the policy. He is not alone there.

The BBC are between a rock and a hard place on this one. Lineker knew that before he tweeted what he did. I said before that I doubt if he is that concerned about losing his job. It is not something that the BBC can threaten him with.

UK parties tend to support the BBC when they are not in power. They are less keen on it once they gain power.

I don't get the sense that the majority of the UK were that bothered by Lineker's tweet, even if they did not agree with it. Tory spin doctors probably welcomed it. We live in an age were it is getting harder and harder to have a serious debate about anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Mar 23 - 03:26 AM

”Well I would have to disagree with you there. I think it is safe to say that he did criticise the policy.”

OK, let’s accept that he did. The fact remains that his comments were made on his private Twitter account, as a private individual. He did not make them as a BBC employee on his BBC Twitter a/c. Are you saying, as the BBC appear to be, that anyone connected with the BBC is not allowed to have personal opinions, or to express those opinions on their own, personal SM account(s)?

If so, to a simple soul like me, that sounds dangerously close to censorship.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Mar 23 - 03:30 AM

The other thing that crosses my mind is that this seems like one of those confected ‘distraction’ issues which the Tory government and their lackeys in the press and media are so keen to leap on when something else is happening that they don’t want Joe Public to notice.

Wonder what they’re up to on the quiet?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Mar 23 - 03:49 AM

Calling out extremist rhetoric is not becoming a mouthpiece for the extreme left (or the extreme right), but a voice for human decency. We al know what happens when media refuses to challange the state, not just in Nazi occupied, but also Soviet occupied countries. Visit Eastern European countries and their are enough museums that show what happened.

In terms of the tweet, to highlighting similarities between the current government's language and the language used by the Nazi's in Germany is not spouting an opinion but reporting fact, and it is none of the BBC's business if holding a mirror up to what ministers say reveal their dangerous narrative. We must never let governments dictate what can and can't be reported, even if the government in power doesn't like it and shows them up for what they are.

If the tories have faith in their policies, then it is up to them to put forward coherent counter-arguments to the contrary, not force dissenters and whistleblowers into silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Mar 23 - 03:53 AM

I have never watched MOTD because of my oft-proclaimed lack of interest in sport, but it is interesting to see there is talk of the Premier League players also refusing to take part in post-match interviews.

It all brings to mind how Ratner demolished his jewellery company with a single ill-judged quip. The BBC looks close to demolishing one of its core products in a meeting lasting minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Mar 23 - 04:06 AM

What is happening now is that the government are putting pressure on the BBC to blacklist those who do not toe the government line - parallels to the US folk movement vs the HUAC. Also read Milan Kundera re: what happened when those in Soviet Occupied Czechoslovakia spoke out of line.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 01:41 AM

So are you suggesting if Lineker did get forced to issue an apology it should be that there were better analogies than the 30s in Germany, including the Mosley 'blackshirts' in Britain in the 30s, the McCarthy blacklists of innocents accused of being unAmerican, and Soviet Occupied Czechoslovakia? And, of course, quite a number of organisations currently banned in the UK for hate speech?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 05:13 AM

I doubt Lineker will be forced to do anything. He is the one who might have to choose what he wants to do. He might want to consider how his choices affect the BBC.

i have little to no interest in what Lineker thinks about anything. I am not on twitter and I have never searched to see what he is saying on twitter. I am only made aware of what he has posted when it ends up as so called 'news'.

In the last few days we have heard lots about the BBC and Lineker's tweet. We have heard next to nothing about the government's boat policy and very little about the UK/French (or is that EU) agreement on how to deal with the "boat' problem. Who does that suit best?

For years we have seen people arriving here by either hiding in vehicles or taking risky boat trips. When they came by vehicle there was less to see. Once the boat arrivals became the norm the images became more stark. The government has had years to deal with it but it still continues. There are no easy solutions but a cynic might say that it suits the government for the 'problem' to continue, especially with an election coming up.

Lineker might want to consider how his actions will affect the BBC. I happen to think that if you take the Beeb's shilling (or is that our shilling) you have some responsibility to try and avoid damaging the BBC. His tweet did not cause that damage. The damage is caused by the reaction to the tweet. He was aware of that from past experience but he chose to post anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 05:29 AM

Roger Bolton from The Guardian last Thursday.

"I agree with Gary Lineker on refugees. But he should delete his tweet, for the sake of the BBC"


Roger Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 05:45 AM

I did elaborate on my post just as mudcat went down yesterday. Unfortunately I can't now remember what I wrote. My other post was highlighting incidents where individuals and groups of individuals were historically sanctioned for dissenting or speaking against state rhetoric. I am not defending the right to hate speech and there are plenty of articles on the freedom of speech vs hate speech paradox to explain why.

In this matter Lineker made a factual observation of the nature of speech used by ministers and a comparison to narrative used in Nazi Germany in the 30s and 40s against a section of humanity. If said government takes umbridge over this, it is their problem. It is not our duty as individuals to defend the government, but we can if we choose to. If anything, the upper echelons of the BBC have breached impartiality by, seemingly under pressure from the tory party, sanctioning a person for stating a personal opinion which include facts that show the government in a bad light. In effect the BBC are attempting to censor history... bit like what Orwell was writing about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 05:47 AM

p.s. It is refreshing that we are having a rational debate on this subject without the usual suspects resorting to personal insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 06:31 AM

Interesting interview with Tim Davie here, where he roundly defends the ‘impartiality’ of the BBC. All very amusing, bullshitting stuff.

I was especially amused by the bit, just over half way through, where the interviewer asks him, if Lineker had said that he supported Suella Braverman’s policy, that it’s ‘brilliant’, would he have been removed from Air for that? Davie replies, “I’m not going to get into hypotheticals”.

Of course you’re not, Tim, of course you’re not. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 07:06 AM

Tim Davie was a Tory politician in the 1990s and is still a rock-solid Tory. For several years he was deputy chair of the Hammersmith and Fulham Conservative Association.

In 2019 Alan Sugar, superstar for almost two decades of his "Apprentice" show on the BBC, tweeted a mocked-up photo of Jeremy Corbyn and Hitler sitting in a car together. Around the same time, there was a huge front-page photo of him in the Sun, pointing to the camera with the banner headline "Corbyn, you're fired."

In an article, Sugar said that “backing Boris Johnson is the only was Britain can escape its Brexit quagmire”. He said that Jeremy Corbyn “is clueless on how the economy works” and added “his £1.2 trillion spending splurge is complete madness”, despite the party’s manifesto being the only one fully costed and approved by more than 160 of the country’s most prominent economists.

Was he sanctioned or suspended? What do you think?

His henchwoman on the Apprentice, Karren Brady, is a Tory peer in the House of Lords. She has addressed a Tory party conference and was a supporter of Osborne's austerity politics. Sugar's male sidekick, Claude Littner, openly endorsed the Tories in the 2019 election.

Anyone care to defend any of this on the grounds of "impartiality," or would "double standards" be a better starting point?

There are plenty of other examples of this sort thing that make Gary Lineker look like a fluffy cuddly kitten.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 07:20 AM

"It is refreshing that we are having a rational debate on this subject without the usual suspects resorting to personal insults."

With the greatest possible respect, SBS, I don't think that this sort of comment, ironically, is at all helpful in our keeping the debate civil. Firstly, it's a tediously cliched phrase, overused mainly by American contributors. Secondly, it's generally used here in order to avoid naming names, that being the far more honest (though possibly the less diplomatic) way of proceeding. Thirdly, I suspect that I'm a suspect (see what I did there?). Two alternative scenarios: "I wish the usual suspects would shut up" or, "Steve, shut up." I know which one I'd rather be on the receiving end of, being a direct sort of chap

I'll duck as I grab me coat...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 07:50 AM

Mail online:
?"Lineker, 62, was temporarily dropped as Match of the Day's presenter on Friday after the BBC decreed his 'Nazi' jibe tweet that compared the Home Office's immigration policy to 1930s Germany breached impartiality rules."

The "Nazi" jibe tweet:
“There is no huge influx. We take far fewer refugees than other major European countries. This is just an immeasurably cruel policy directed at the most vulnerable people in language that is not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the 30s, and I’m out of order?”

No jibe, no mention of Nazis. No comparison of Home Office immigration policy to 1930s Germany. It was simply about the language used.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 08:01 AM

"I was especially amused by the bit, just over half way through, where the interviewer asks him, if Lineker had said that he supported Suella Braverman’s policy, that it’s ‘brilliant’, would he have been removed from Air for that? Davie replies, “I’m not going to get into hypotheticals”."

Well if he had tweeted in support of the policy it would have attracted little to no objections. There would have been hardly anyone calling for the BBC to remove him from the air. Might be slightly different if he said something in favour of the anti vax movement or either any view at all about trans issues. If it was just an opinion what would it matter?

I don't think it is about his tweet as such. It is about how some have seized on his tweet for their own ends, to both divert attention and also attack the BBC. Lineker was aware of that possibility but chose to ignore it. I am not sure that was the wisest move.

Nearly all of us have been in situations where we have had to bite our tongues for any number of reasons. We might think twice about how we phrase something.If he had not made the reference to Germany, would his tweet have provoked the reaction that it has?

This morning I was even thinking that the government uses terms like invasion deliberately. They know it causes a reaction rather than people looking closely at their policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 08:19 AM

Exactly the point I was making, RD.

The BBC, impartial? Not under this bunch of wealth-grabbing, tax-dodging Tories we’re stuck with for the next eighteen months.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 08:57 AM

I agree with all that, Rain Dog. Had Gary given one or two examples of the words used ("invasion" "illegals," etc.,) it would have been far harder for the Mail (and possibly others) to misrepresent his tweet, but that's Twitter (and the Mail) for you. As for being careful as to what we say and what words we use, it's my impression that there are far more attack-dogs ready to demonise people who are on the left for even the slightest ambiguity or carelessness of expression. Jeremy Corbyn gave Starmer the pretext to throw him out of the PLP by making what I thought was an anodyne and fairly inoffensive riposte to a report that had basically condemned him comprehensively. Should he have said it? Did he have the right to say it? Now ask the same questions about the Alan Sugar remarks I posted. If there's an element involved in the right to free speech that constrains some, but not others, not to speak up, I'd call that a slippery slope.

I actually think that a far bigger issue that Gary Lineker and Match Of The Day has been thrown up here. We've had a number of Tory threats to democracy since Johnson took power (Theresa May wasn't exactly innocent either), and I think we are definitely seeing another one here. The problem is that we have an opposition who are likely to be in power soon but who can't see through the stinking ideology behind the Tory outrages.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 09:45 AM

Steve, we have both, from time to time gone a bit over the top responding to trolling rather than bite our tongues.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 10:30 AM

Many of us have, SPB, and probably will again in the future. But for now, I’m with you - a very nice change in atmosphere around here… <3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 10:31 AM

Interesting side issue: TV news coverage of the Lineker kerfuffle has been wall-to-wall, notably on BBC News 24. Meanwhile, Radio Four's news bulletin coverage of the same story is over in a few minutes, and other important issues get a chance to be aired in the same bulletin.

I've seen this difference before, though not quite so extreme. Any ideas why it's so, folks .... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 10:35 AM

Instant apology for calling you SBS. Argh!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 11:04 AM

Seen on Facebook

Comment on Lineker.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Mar 23 - 12:38 PM

Very good, Nigel, and I say that as a rugby non-fan!

A good read in the Guardian:

Lineker and Vorderman are a more effective opposition than Labour. No wonder the Tories feel threatened
Hannah Jane Parkinson

"When indecent populists are challenged by people who are both decent and popular, they realise they’re in danger."

She's not exactly complimentary about Starmer either. I'm glad I'm not just a voice in the wilderness.

On another tack, I read a comment by the God-awful Rachel Reeves. After the usual anodyne and formulaic calls for Sharp to resign and for the Beeb to reverse its decision, she spoke pusillanimously of her support for Lineker "whether you agree with [his] tweets or not, and I wouldn't have used that language..."

What language of his would she not have used? And why not! I tell you, we're in trouble with this opposition...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Mar 23 - 04:37 AM

This afternoon is the second reading of the Illegal Immigrants Bill which is behind all the furore inspired by Lineker's tweet. The BBC has made a complete hash of the story so far, and this second reading will be a test for the Conservatives, but it is at least as much a test of Labour. Will they rise to the challenge Lineker has set, or will they not? It could be game changing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Mar 23 - 06:30 AM

Lineker is back.

The BBC will begin an independent review of its social media guidelines, focusing on how it applies to freelancers outside news - like Lineker.

Rumours that Lineker is to become the main Newsnight presenter are yet to be confirmed.

They think it's all over. Maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 23 - 04:17 PM

From an editorial in the Guardian (a rather brilliant one, I thought):

"Much of what Mr Lineker said was not new, but such unabashed liberal dissent from a popular figure has been missing from political discourse. This is, in part, because the Labour party had not summoned the moral courage to say the right thing. Mr Lineker ought to be congratulated for shaming the opposition into action. The public is waking up to the dangerous incompetence of the Tory government."

Labour thinks that a bit of faint praise for Lineker wrapped in caveats is ok, viz for example the pusillanimous remark by Rachel Reeve ("Not the language I would have used..."). Well I think they should be robustly and honestly challenging the Tories' sinking ideology, and, if they don't they may well lose the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 23 - 08:29 PM

Here's a letter to the Guardian which is sublime in its measured tones and in its wisdom (in my opinion).

"Thank you to Jonathan Freedland for his insightful article about the issues concerning asylum seekers (10 March). I would just take issue with his statement that Gary Lineker has 'deployed the wrong analogy' in saying the language is 'not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the 1930s.' I beg to differ. I believe the analogy was very well chosen.

'Not dissimilar' means there may be points of similarity; it does not mean that words and deeds correspond exactly. Anyone who watches series one of the BBC’s Rise of the Nazis will quickly see the truth of Mr Lineker’s words. In 2023, just as in Germany in the 1930s, we see the government curbing our right to engage in demonstrations, seeking to undermine the judiciary, making it less easy to cast a vote, and dehumanising and othering minority and migrant groups. Need I say more?

The steady suppression of dissenting voices in Germany in the 1930s created the conditions in which extreme rightwing ideology could flourish. I fully endorse Mr Lineker’s view that the government’s language is 'not dissimilar' to Germany in the 1930s, and I am most grateful to him for speaking out and sticking to his views, and for all those who have backed him."
Elizabeth Palmer
Oldham, Greater Manchester

I think we should all feel well and truly warned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Mar 23 - 02:05 AM

Attila the Stockbroker on SM yesterday - right on-point, as ever…

”The Lineker saga has a lot of lessons for me in terms of the things I want to see from prominent people in public life and the contrasting response to them from the general public on the one hand and right wing politicians and media concerned about their influence on the other.

Lineker’s not a radical leftist by any means, but he does appear to be a very nice, compassionate bloke, he is highly intelligent and he loves and is incredibly knowledgable about his subject. In Lineker and Attenborough we have two truly wonderful presenters who get through to this non-TV fan in a way few others do (Chris Packham also worthy of a mention, not just because of the Clash quotes, but he is far more niche.)

Lineker and Attenborough frighten the Right because their easy-going humanity strikes a chord with many of those who may have been conditioned to consider themselves ‘right wing’ in terms of their viewing and reading habits but are basically kind, caring people.

Tory politicians and their pet newspapers don’t want people, especially people of my generation - their primary constituency by far these days - to be easy-going and kind. They want them to be scared, angry and defensive, constantly looking to protect their little English ‘castles’ from alien attack, whether from ‘invasions’ of immigrants, apocalyptic weather conditions, deadly diseases or attacks on their pensions. If you want a brilliant satire on this google ‘Daily Mail Headline Generator.’ It’s a work of beauty.

Tories want to foster division and create scapegoats because they think it will win them votes, and their main weapon is of course ‘the right wing press’ - an institution unique in Europe in terms of its size and virtual monopoly. One which leaves our continental neighbours open-mouthed in wonder that such a phenomenon can exist in a modern (supposedly) democratic country.

The discussion around the impartiality of the BBC must be extended to take in the partiality of the vast majority of the rest of the media. ‘The right wing press’ is a phrase used in a matter-of-fact way, accepting the fact that our papers are mostly owned by non-dom billionaires, such individuals are virtually always on the right of the political spectrum, and that therefore there is massive bias in our print media.

We have to start challenging the whole idea that the BBC has to be impartial because it’s publicly owned but other institutions can be festering pits of right wing bigotry, slant and obfuscation because they are privately owned.

In a democracy, the major political forces should have equal representation, end of, and the question of private or taxpayer ownership should be irrelevant. If the BBC is to be subject to such legislation so should the (currently) right wing press. At the moment, their brutal, baleful, strutting influence is a stain on our democracy.”

Who, but a brainwashed Tory-apologist, could dispute any of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Mar 23 - 03:36 AM

Well when it comes to the BBC I do think it is a bit more complicated. I think that most of us want it to be impartial when it comes to reporting the news. I prefer hearing the facts rather than a view on the facts. That is when it gets more difficult when we talk about being impartial.

The BBC is public funded and that draws the ire of a lot of people. Governments, of whatever hue,are not happy when their policies are attacked or seen to be attacked by the BBC. Ministers get a harder grilling from TV and radio (not just the BBC) than they tend to get in parliament.

A lot of the public are not happy about the licence fee, especially when they don't watch or listen to BBC content.

Quite a few media outlets are not happy having to compete with the BBC in the commercial world. Print media look on with envy at the BBC's online content which is paid for by the public, while they have to cover their costs from the revenue they raise.

I read The Guardian online. I bought the paper for many years and do still a copy from time to time. I understand their view on certain subjects and read any articles with that in mind. When they express an opinion I can either agree or disagree with it. It is an opinion. When they are reporting news I just want the facts. Of course they, like everyone else, choose what news they want to report and how they want to report it.

The 'missing' Attenborough programme is a case in point. The Guardian reported an episode had been pulled but that seems to be incorrect. Yesterday BBC Radio 4 had an interview with a member of one of the charities behind the Save Our Wild Isles appeal. She said they had made that 'missing' programme as part of their appeal, which they were launching off the back of the BBC Wild Isles series. The BBC had agreed to host it on iplayer.

Not quite as The Guardian reported it. They seem a bit slow in amending their original story, though they have made a start here.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2023/mar/13/pulled-a-timeline-of-tv-tak


"David Attenborough documentary (BBC iPlayer, 2023)
Another use of this “split screen” approach will see Sir David Attenborough’s five-part series Wild Isles supplemented by a documentary about “re-wilding” that will only be available on iPlayer. Some BBC staff have suggested that a “sixth episode” was censored in case it upset rightwing anti-ecologists in government and elsewhere. But the film would irritate them just as much digitally, and the paper trail seems to show that the documentary was made separately and bought by the BBC as extra content for iPlayer, driving audiences there in line with its digital-first policy."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 23 - 01:51 PM

That's a great clip, John.

A couple of points on the licence fee (which costs every household with a telly, with a few exemptions - not every taxpayer - 42.5p per day). You could argue that you shouldn't pay it if you have no telly or device that can go online. That's a high bar these days, innit, and there are plenty of non-paying cheats around. Either we tell folks with the tellies and computers that they still have to pay up, despite their protestations, or they tell fibs about what they never tune into and risk being caught, or we trust what they say about their viewing habits, until some better way of monitoring them comes up. Your mileage may vary, but I think, you have a telly, you pay. We tend to regard the Beeb as a public service. We regard schools as a public service, but the people who never had kids, or use only public schools, don't get let off tax that contributes to state schools (though there's the outrage that public schools are treated as charities - ha bloody ha). Pacifists don't get let off the bit of tax that pays for the army, another public service. Etcetera.

To a large extent the Beeb still has to raise money via commercial methods. Have you seen how much the Radio Times costs these days! And they make a fortune by selling the Strictly Come Dancing brand, many of their dramas and comedy series and Attenborough's documentaries, to name but a few, overseas.

So if we scrap the licence fee, the BBC will resort to advertising. The advertisers pay the Beeb, and so we pay the advertisers more money for their stuff. I wonder whether the 42.5p per day would cover that, and you'll never get the extra money back that you paid for that stuff by claiming that you don't have a telly (I pay more for stuff that's advertised on commercial channels, which I seldom watch, and if I do I record it in advance so that I can fast-forward through the ads. What a cheat!).

The Attenborough notorious sixth episode: now what kind of a decision was that, being told as we are that, well, it wasn't really part of the series so we'll shove it aside on iPlayer (where it'll get fewer viewers).

Attenborough. The most watched and watchable stuff on telly ever. So we'll put it on iPlayer. Do you believe their reasons for that? Well I have no evidence, but I simply don't believe it. From what I read, that episode is going to shoot from the hip as to the true causes of our wildlife decline. So that would largely target farming practices, possibly including the use of neonicotinoid insecticides, and would cover the misuse of land by landowners, for grouse-shooting for example. Now all that would get right up the noses of the farming lobby and the landed gentry, including the royals. Call me Mr Cynical, but if you try to tell me that the Beeb hasn't been leaned on by this right-wing government and those vested interests, I might just accuse you of having a laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Mar 23 - 02:00 PM

To a large extent the Beeb still has to raise money via commercial methods. Have you seen how much the Radio Times costs these days!

That is not fund raising for the BBC. They stopped publishing the RT in 2011. It is now published by Immediate Media.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 23 - 03:08 PM

I think of Sir David Attenborough as an 'International' Resource. Watch anything he is in.

His brother Richard was a very good and watchable actor as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Mar 23 - 04:41 PM

Point taken, Nigel. Call me Mr Cynically Out-Of-Date.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 23 - 09:46 AM

Dear Mr. Cynically Out-Of-Date,
Better late reading the tea leaves than never.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 23 - 10:18 AM

As you have nothing to say, piss off.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 23 - 10:23 AM

Not Brexit, but significabt UK historical political interest.

This week's edition of "The Rest is Politics" is all about the Iraq War, as it the 20th anniversary. As Alistair Campbell was central to this, it is well worth hearing his commentary it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 23 - 03:47 PM

Michael Rosen on Linekers tweet

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 23 - 06:10 PM

Well done Michael Rosen.

I've just had an email from Rachel Reeve (because I'm still a Labour member), the usual anti-budget guff. But not a mention of the four-year freeze on the tax-free allowance. When wages are going up faster than for many years, that drags the lower-paid into paying tax or paying more tax. No mention of the massive pension tax reliefs for the richest, just a vague and formulaic mention of "tax cuts for the rich." Well what do you know. I think I'll vote Monster Ravin' Loony next time.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Mar 23 - 06:11 PM

Reeves! Thank God there's only one of her!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Mar 23 - 06:38 PM

Just watched comic relief and excellent it was too. Raised over £31 million. I always wonder though why the government (of any leaning) doesn't give money to these causes and let, for instance, comedians raise money for MPs expenses or vanity projects

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 23 - 08:09 PM

Good show, though we recorded it and stopped watching at ten for the news. We'll watch the rest tomorrow. No spoilers, please! I might put in a few entries to win the queen's jag...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 23 - 03:19 AM

We only watched till 10 anyway. May watch some more on iPlayer later.

You recorded it? How eighties :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 23 - 06:35 AM

So Suella Braverman is heading off to Rwanda to showboat about her non-deal (so far) to traffic refugees there. In tow will be journalists from the Telegraph, the Mail and GB News. Pointedly uninvited are the Guardian, the Independent, the Mirror and the BBC. This trip is funded by the taxpayer. Democracy in action, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 23 - 12:47 PM

The trouble is the Guardian, the i and so on would want to photograph and comment on things apart from the rooms that are the equivalent of show houses on new estates. That's not the idea: only the positive side of Rwanda is to be shown.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 23 - 01:45 PM

Have a look at what that nice Rwandan regime is getting up to in the country next door (from a report by Human Rights Watch on Feb 6):

(Goma) – The Rwanda-backed M23 armed group has committed summary executions and forced recruitment of civilians in eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, Human Rights Watch said today. The Congolese army is responding to the M23’s offensive by collaborating with ethnic militias with abusive records.

The warring parties have increasingly appealed to ethnic loyalties, putting civilians in remote areas of North Kivu province at a heightened risk.

“Rwanda-backed M23 rebels in North Kivu are leaving behind a growing trail of war crimes against civilians,” said Thomas Fessy, senior Congo researcher at Human Rights Watch. “Rwanda should end its military support for the M23 while Congolese government troops should prioritize protecting civilians and cease using abusive militias as proxy forces.”

Recent investigations by the United Nations Group of Experts on Congo, as well as Human Rights Watch research, provide significant photographic and other evidence that Rwanda is not only giving logistical support to the M23, but that Rwandan troops are reinforcing or fighting alongside the armed group inside Congo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Mar 23 - 02:06 PM

I admit to having some trouble getting my head round telling people people how wonderful the accommodation and opportunities are in Rwanda is supposed to put off people deciding to come here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 23 - 02:58 PM

Perhaps they hope that they will row their boats to Rwanda

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 23 - 03:50 PM

Number of people trafficked to Rwanda since the deal was struck last April: 0

Number of people who arrived just yesterday in small boats: 200.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 23 - 09:15 PM

'Vanity project’: Braverman under fire for taking only rightwing press to Rwanda
Home secretary’s trip to publicise refugee policy has been compared with Donald Trump’s news management

Vanessa Thorpe and Michael Savage

This is from today's Guardian. The rather lengthy article is well worth a read.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Mar 23 - 11:33 PM

Here’s the link to the article Steve refers to…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Mar 23 - 02:18 PM

In local news- my partner arrived at Stansted yesterday and she was asked a raft of questions by customs: where she was stating, who with, how long for. Obviously the border force official is a nasty piece of work who thinks he is entailed to poke his nore into her, and by assovition my private life and is too stupid or racist to understand what Freedom of Movement for EU national meant. It is of his business why my partner is staying here to be with me for a month. Surely I am now entitled to know where he lives and and anything I want to kbow about hiz private life.

Only racists would find that behaviour anything but reprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 23 - 07:18 PM

Just seen a placard on a photo of an NHS rally in the Guardian that read:

"The only good Tory is a supposi-Tory"

I bloody love that! Best placard ever!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 05:13 AM

Over the last few weeks, it has seemed to me that "The Independent" has moved a lot closer to the tabloids than it used to be. The headline that struck me this morning was

EU judges ‘close to backing down’ on blocking Rwanda flights as Braverman hails ‘constructive talks’

Those quotation marks around "close to backing down" would normally imply it is a direct quotation from some spokesman, but the rest of the article does not make that claim. Even the actual quotation given ("A government source said that if implemented, the reforms “would remove a key barrier to getting flights off the ground”) does not talk of the EU backing down, but more of a joint agreement, whereas 'backing down' suggests the UK has got everything it wanted at no cost, and the EU has lost but not gained anything.

(For a long time now, other tabloid staples with articles like "15 films with an unexpected twist" have been in place, but you can at least ignore that fluff.)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 07:13 AM

I imagine they are just quoting from a briefing from Braverman and/or the Home Office. I have read much the same elsewhere but cannot find the link right now.

The Independent did add the following to the piece you quoted.

++
This article was amended on March 20 2023. The headline originally referred to ‘EU judges’ but the ECHR is not an EU institution.
++

Of course we will have to wait and see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 07:26 AM

Not, perhaps, connected with Geordie Greig becoming editor in chief of "The Independent" in January 2023, after being editor of the Daily Mail?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 08:23 AM

If \Tory party gets its own way with deciding international law no longer applies to the UK, then the rest of the world has an absolute right to wash its hands of its obligations. thus effectively stripping people seeking asylum of all human rights, thus reducing people fleeing oppression, murder, torture, rape at the hands of their regimes to a status of less than human. Same as the ideology that allowed the slave trade and the treatment of those in slavery.

If the tories insist on ignoring international law, then the international community has a duty to apply sanctions to being this country to its knees, even if it means the majority of the UK population living in abject poverty, suffering power and fuel blockades, banning all imports and exports to/from the UK etc. International boycotts, etc. We must be made to profoundly suffer for our government's actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Mar 23 - 08:40 AM

Lineker was right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 08:35 AM

Concerning Johnson defending himself by saying that he only ever acted in good faith over Partygate, this comment appeared below-the-line in the Guardian:

"This farce is angering me no end. He lied. We know it, he knows it everyone knows it. His defence that he didnt know what he was doing is far too ridiculous to even take seriously. If this were a trial the jury would find him guilty in 5 mins tops. Instead we have to endure this protracted nonsense. All the while the country is barely being governed. Farce."

Alleluja. And this farce is being conducted at public expense, by a panel that has a majority of Tories on it.

(Giving credit where it's due, that post was responded to appropriately by one Tattie_Bogle!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 08:43 AM

I have acquaintances, including members of my wife’s family, who are still telling me that ‘Boris is a great guy who did a great job’. When I question that opinion, the answer I almost always get is, “Ah but, think how much worse things would be if Labour had got in”.

I really do doubt some people’s sanity, and I really, really do despair.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 09:38 AM

They'd probably tell you how great things are now because we've got hundreds of food banks. We never had THAT under Labour!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 10:18 AM

Pressure mounts on Ofsted amid outcry after death of headteacher
"Ruth Perry’s death a ‘direct result of pressure’ from report by England’s education watchdog, says family" [Guardian]

Ofsted started as a Tory confection for judging schools. Teams of "inspectors," many of whom had never been in a classroom and/or who had been given just a couple of days' training, descended at short notice on schools to interrogate staff and children, "observe" lessons, look at box-ticking test and exam results (taking no account whatsoever of the social background of the school) and produce a report that was highly-judgemental and completely unsupportive. Anyone could read the reports but most people would rely on headline single-word summaries such as "satisfactory" or "inadequate." The Ofsted teams neither gave any support to teachers nor were in any way qualified to do so. Ofsted has evolved in in its methods and policies since those beginnings but remains highly arbitrary and judgemental.

A proper inspection regime would identify weaknesses and have teams of experienced and supportive educationists to help schools to improve. When I worked in London, and, to begin with, in Devon, we had teams of experienced, successful senior teachers, trained in specific subject areas, who would come into schools, see what we were up to and show us how to do it better. It wasn't perfect and there wasn't enough of it but it was at least the basis of what a good supporting inspectorate should be.

Instead of that we have teams of highly-paid people whose only aim is to put the screws on teachers. The upshot is headteachers, worried about their reputation, putting more and more pressure on their classroom teachers, who are compelled to use up tons of energy to produce mountains of paperwork and spend hours every night and at weekends close-marking work and producing highly-detailed lesson plans and worksheets, following a content-stuffed curriculum which goes a long way towards turning both the teachers and the pupils into automatons. No wonder the best teachers leave in droves and that mental ill-health is rife. I can only hope that this latest tragic case will be a turning point. Ofsted is not fit for purpose, never has been, has been found not to be so more than once and needs to be scrapped.

End of rant by bloke who has both experienced Ofsted and who knows several inspectors who know that they will always get a piece of my mind, as much as I love them dearly!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 01:07 PM

Not Brexit related, not political, unless you subscribe to the idea the personal is political. However:

I have just had an email notifying me a letter I sent to The Guardian is to be published online tonight and in the print edition tomorrow.

It was in response to a lament that a lot of the clubbing scene is closing down, and it talked about how dance is a fundamental part of human socialising going back forever.   I was pointing out that for other forms of dance there are very few commercial places you can dance. Most of them are village or church halls.

As it happens, a dance I was supposed to go tomorrow isn't taking place as the number of attendees was too low :(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 01:07 PM

So for all the comments we get about 'the Tories have been in power for 13 years, why haven't they done anything'
Since the start of OFSTED the Labour Party had a 13 year period in government . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 01:56 PM

Already online DMcG.

Did you post a letter or email it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 02:00 PM

I emailed it, Rain Dog

These days, the post is such that it could be very "out of date" by the time it gets there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 02:03 PM

Governments of what ever party are forever tinkering with education policy. They can never agree on what counts as a 'good' education. They can only agree that the policy at the time is not working, especially if it is a policy of another party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 02:07 PM

ALL The comments, Nigel? Who else has commented on OFSTED but Steve? Also, as far as I know, the current body began in 1992 so there has been 18 years of Tories and 13 years of Labour since. When does 2 wrongs make a right anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 02:09 PM

I have just seen the relevant bit of the Guardian. Not surprisingly, it is edited down from what I said, and it does give the impression that barn dances and ballroom are directly affected by spaces for clubbing going, as if during the day a ceilidh band takes over the mosh pit, but never mind!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 02:21 PM

I can, at long last, thank Boris Johnson for something. If his defence is accepted it sets the precedent for many others

I did not knowingly or recklessly exceed the speed limit.

I did not knowingly or recklessly take the bottle of 21 year old malt from Tescos without paying

I did not knowingly or recklessly kick my local Tory MP in the nuts...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 02:41 PM

I did not intentionally or recklessly use the word knowingly instead of intentionally:-D

(Yes, Nigel, that is preempting you)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 23 - 02:47 PM

Nigel, I've often bitterly criticised New Labour for widening the gap between rich and poor, for failing to correct the Tory lack of regulation of the banks and for supporting Bush in the invasion of Iraq. I'm more than happy to bitterly criticise New Labour for cheerfully continuing the Tory Ofsted regime that has done so much to ruin teaching in this country. Fair enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 23 - 02:14 PM

Well that was three hours of my life I'll never get back...

I nearly threw something at the telly when he said that loads of people up and down the country had probably also not been complying perfectly with social distancing rules. Well people were forced to see their loved ones die alone as he was raising glasses with his cronies. I couldn't visit my profoundly deaf mum in her room at her home for the last seven months of her life, having to settle for once a fortnight ten feet apart with a perspex screen between us. Mrs Steve and I complied with every rule to the letter, including the mask rule, despite my contempt for it. The bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 23 - 06:25 PM

I was supposed to be out all afternoon but the event was cancelled, so I got to watch the entertainment as well.

When he was clearly losing his temper with the first set of questions I thought the whole thing was going to erupt, but after that he managed to keep himself more or less under control.   But it was very striking how the questioners and the chair kept telling him to answer the question and stop waffling, which I am sure he did not like at all.   A few very sharp questions that he had especial difficulty with, such as whether every manager in the country was permitted to have leaving drinks for their staff, which he fumbled for what seemed quite a while before essentially saying 'yes'.

A particular moment of amusement occurred right at the end when having argued all along he could rely on the advice he was given, it was put to him that Downing Street was so big and complex with so many people that no one could have known that, and he heartily agreed, insisting it was a very important point. Not noticing, apparently, that it contradicted almost all his testimony.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 23 - 07:03 PM

And call me Mr Cynical, but Fishy Rishi published his tax returns at the exact same time that Boris walked to the stand. What was all that about burying bad news...?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Mar 23 - 01:08 PM

Typical government(of whichever party) behaviour when it comes to burying 'bad' news.

Do you think Starmer waited for the same reason?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 23 - 02:10 PM

No, he did it in reaction to Fishi releasing his, because his numbers looked ten times better than Fishi's and because most of his tax came from what he was paid for going to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Mar 23 - 02:24 PM

So if Starmer had published his figures earlier, would that have prompted Sunak to do the same?

Of course you and I live in a country where tax matters are a private concern. We have just seen 2 rich people declare how much tax they have paid. Not sure what the vast majority of the country feel about that.

Have Labour announced any plans to change CGT? I am not aware of any such plans.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 03:18 AM

A Labour national executive committee (NEC) tells 19 sitting Leicester councillors that they cannot stand as Labour candidates in tbe forthcoming council elections.

The tories announce plans to ban laughing.

What is this country coming to?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 04:04 AM

Aye, Rain Dog, that laugyhing one is a gas :-)

More seriously, 3 people I know very well have been forced out of the Labour Party by the infighting over local council candidates. Sadly, when the party should be doing all it can to unseat the shower that are destroying the NHS, they seem more concerned with ensuring all its representatives adhere to Starmer's centrist (read right wing) line :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 06:18 AM

So apart from banning laughing gas they're going to force shouty teens to pick up litter in hi-viz jackets and make graffiti artists clean it off again. I think they should bring back the birch, bring back conscription, bring back the stocks and bring back ducking stools. Or save all that bother and just cut off their goolies.

By the way, I've seen acres of graffiti in my time but I've never actually seen anyone doing it. Never mind. I'm sure that all those extra Tory cops will be out and about 24/7 with their high-powered bins. And when they're not actually graffiti-spotting they'll be arbitrarily deciding what's antisocial and what isn't. Wheee!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 07:29 AM

Our Norfolk roads are a disgrace, littered with loads of chucked-away rubbish. People just seem to throw their cans, take-away bags etc from their car windows as they drive along. Also, we've noticed a lot of fly-tipping (huge plastic bags of rubbish left in lay-bys). In the past, a van used to collect all this up (two council employees) and take it off to the tip, but we haven't seen them around in ages.
I like Dishy Rishy's statement about catching the messy litterers and tidying up the country, but I can't see it coming about. The Police are now very thin on the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 07:44 AM

Well I've seen plenty of rubbish fly-tipped but I've never seen anyone fly-tipping it. If I wanted to fly-tip I'd make bloody sure no-one was watching first, a bit like those people who let their dogs shit on the pavement (Now stopping that WOULD be something useful!). Let's face it: this is a pre-election Tory tough-on-Laura-Norder stunt, and Labour have to go along with it, led by the nose, in order to not look weak. A bit like stop-the-boats. Isn't politics fun. Anyway, Kate Forbes for SNP leader! Ban everything! March those kids to the Wee Free! That'll learn 'em to not be antisocial!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 08:16 AM

"Let's face it: this is a pre-election Tory tough-on-Laura-Norder stunt, and Labour have to go along with it, led by the nose, in order to not look weak."

I thought Labour were already leading on it, promising to halve knife crime incidents, as well as reduce crimes against women. Promise? Not sure how that will work out. They are laudable aims though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 09:13 AM

We could always make shorter knives. Sorry, I'm in super-cynical mode today. Aims may be laudable but they're still aims. Ah, what's this, a newsflash. I see we've got Humza. Unban everything again!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 10:19 AM

This idea of instant punishment reminds me of Blai's idea of marching offenders to the cashpoint. Alistair Campbell says be tried to dissuade Blair from saying that because it was unworkable, but these sorts of ideas are appealing to people who don't stop and think "What are the problems with that?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 10:39 AM

The idea of people being made to clear up the shit they have caused appeals to a lot of people, both those who vote tory and those who vote labour. Not so easy to put into practice though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 10:50 AM

Well number one, spot the shitmakers. Number two, make sure you've got the right culprits. Number three, prove it. Number four, force the jackets on them. Number five, make them do what you want, arbitrarily and without legal backing. Shades of Dixon of Dock Green feeling the villain's collar and the villain meekly saying, OK, it's a fair cop, guv. I've just spotted a cuckoo in the clouds. Next stop, bunches of vigilantes. Maybe a posse or two.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Mar 23 - 11:00 AM

Like I said, not easy to put into practice.

It can also be said that those who live in towns and those who live in the country, have different experiences when it comes to anti social behaviour. They both might well prefer an alternative punishment instead of prison though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 23 - 03:14 AM

So the latest wheeze being talked about is putting asylum seekers on cruise ships.   

To me, this sounds like an idea of the top of someones head that will face huge problems if/when it is implemented. It is possible, of course, but let's think about a few problems.

1. Where is it moored?
If it is in a dock, that ties up facilities that would normally have a different purpose. You don't want it in a place where cruise ships are active, because it reduces capacity. The same applies to industrial ports. Also, no town is going to be particularly happy with this permanently added to their coastline.

ON the other hand, if it is moored off shore, how you get people and from to it is problematical. How is it staffed, for example? It will need fuel for electricity and water purification; how do you restock that? Similarly food and waste management. Then, if it is simply moored a little way from the coast, it will be as unwelcome for the townsfolk as if it is physically docked, but if it far enough out to be out of sight, you amplify all the supply problems.

2. How much does it cost?
If it is moored off shore, the fuel costs to produce pure water will be many times the cost of using a normal water supply.Similarly getting all other supplies to the ship will be multiples of the cost incurred by mooring on-shore. Equally, the logistics of getting asylum seekers on board and off more or less constantly will not be trivial.

Then cruise ships are designed to be economically efficient when they are full. No cruise ship with a capacity of 5000 will run at all effectively if there are only 500 'guests'.   That means when you first start operating you need to fill the ship immediately and then you have little or no capacity to add more.


3. How is it staffed?
Again, this is not too much of a problem if the ship is docked, but a huge logistical problem if it is not. I would expect you would need a staffing model similar to working on an oil rig.

4. How is it maintained?
The ship will need to meet and maintain all the regulations for a ship. For example, the evacuation procedures will need to be maintained and practiced regularly. Then the physical structures must remain seaworthy. All more costs.


So, in practice, I think the most viable option is to have the ship permanently docked.   But, as I say, that ties up facilities, and that will have a substantial cost as well, both financially and politically.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Mar 23 - 03:47 AM

Braverman's constituency, Fareham, is by the sea, and all the costs can be met by Fareham's council tax payers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Mar 23 - 04:21 AM

Cruise vessels were moored up during the covid period. Some moored here in Dover for short periods. They would not be able to moor in working harbours now of course.

Here’s what's happened to the cruise ships anchored in the Firth of Forth

Cruising is Out, But Enthusiasts Can Still Visit Laid-Up Cruise Ships

There will still be costs as they cannot be avoided no matter how the situation is dealt with.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 23 - 04:45 AM

Mooring during covid is a bit different. There were lots moored around Weymouth, for example. But they were moored as effectively 'empty' ships, not 'full and working' ones. I gather some were also docked in Glasgow and Edinburgh to host some Ukrainians, so it is not impossible, of course, but the problems and costs should not be underestimated.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 23 - 04:47 AM

Glasgow cruise ship contract ends

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 23 - 05:48 AM

And we had Dominic Raab this morning, rattling on about the housing of "illegal immigrants" (talk about putting everyone in the same box, "illegal" or not...) in hotels as an "abuse of taxpayers' money." The interviewer, Justin Webb, tried to pin him down about whether he had a barge, but that piece of racism completely bypassed him. This is the same Dominic Raab who wasted a million pounds of taxpayers' money in a nine-month period (when he was foreign secretary) chartering private flights to take him all over the world when he could have used scheduled flights. Lovely man, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 23 - 06:26 AM

'Course, that's a day out of date now! Never mind. We had the uselessly unconvincing Rachel Reeves to "entertain" us this morning. Woe are we.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 31 Mar 23 - 11:07 AM

I liked this below-the-line comment on the same piece:

"Just surprised go see comments actually open on this, no articles about the Corbyn expulsion have been open to comment for days, not even Steve Bells excellent cartoon a few days ago."

It amuses me to see what The Guardian allows readers to comment on.

I was not surprised by the decision to not let Corbyn stand. I assume that his expulsion from the party still stands.

I am more surprised at the involvement of the central party in the selection of candidates to stand in elections. Telling 19 Leicester councillors that they could not stand again in the forthcoming local election, does seem a little strange. As far as I am aware, those 19 had not been expelled from the party before they were told they could not stand as a Labour candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 23 - 12:25 PM

”I was not surprised by the decision to not let Corbyn stand.”

I’m not surprised by the decision either, but I regard it as a big mistake. In a Party which is supposed to be a paragon of democratic virtue, it seems to me that MPs of widely-differing views is a benefit, not a disadvantage. If for no other reason than that JC is an excellent constituency MP, he should be eligible to stand for re-election.

”I assume that his expulsion from the party still stands.”

Has he been expelled from the Party? My understanding is that, whilst he lost the Party Whip and has been barred from standing for re-election, he is still a Party member, but I could be wrong on that. Please correct me if I’ve got that round my neck!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 31 Mar 23 - 12:36 PM

My mistake. I thought he had been expelled but it seems not yet. If he stands as an Independent candidate in the election he will be expelled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 31 Mar 23 - 12:52 PM

I was extremely fortunate to have Jeremy Corbyn as my MP for almost thirty years. It would be extremely hard to find a more decent person and one more honest and committed to improving the lives of his constituents. Starmer's not a true socialist and his desire to punish Jeremy Corbyn is utterly reprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 23 - 01:35 PM

My fat finger hit the send button prematurely when I posted this before, plus I got my italics in a mess. Please ignore and consider this version instead.

Ahem:


This is a below-the-line comment on a Guardian opinion piece written by Andy Beckett (the part in bold is a quote from Beckett's article):

'A leader who effectively expelled his predecessor from Labour in parliament despite Corbyn’s 40 years of dedication to his constituency and 10 consecutive large local majorities.’

To say this is a mistake doesn’t do justice to the enormity of the damage this will cause party and country.

What the country needs, above all else, is unity - unity of purpose and unity of vision.

It’s bad enough that Keir didn’t support Jeremy through the expensive [extensive??] character assassination deployed against him by the right wing press.

Jeremy Corbyn is not an antisemite.

To deny him the chance to stand for Labour furthers this outrageous injustice yet more and ostracises swathes of loyal supporters, many of them the abandoned young who found a natural home under Jeremy’s leadership. These are neither ‘extreme’ nor the ‘loony left’ as the tabloids would also have us believe; they are, like our founder (after whom Keir has the honour to be named) simply socialists and socialism should be our raison d’etre - our vision, not the unmentionable word it has become under Keir’s leadership.

The right wing of the Labour Party (a relative term) threw Jeremy under a bus by refusing en masse to join his shadow cabinet: arguably, they thereby threw the country under a bus by helping to condemn Labour to inevitable election defeats. Your Yvette, your Nandy, your Watson & co., assisted ably by that horrid cabal led by John Mann and the highly disreputable Margaret Hodge with their dishonest and confected antisemitism campaign, did more to ensure that than the Tories and the Mail could ever do. Of course, that's exactly what they wanted. No price was too high to pay for getting the lefties out and refashioning the party in their own expedient image. What was once a proud, left-wing party that rebuilt this country after the war in the face of Tory opposition is now a party in which, if you say that you're a socialist, you're in danger of being booted out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 23 - 01:39 PM

Sorry, not Watson. He did join the shadow cabinet but he never missed an opportunity to brief against Jeremy. I did have plenty of others to choose from, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Mar 23 - 09:23 PM

Steve:
Well number one, spot the shitmakers. Number two, make sure you've got the right culprits. Number three, prove it. Number four, force the jackets on them. Number five, make them do what you want, arbitrarily and without legal backing. Shades of Dixon of Dock Green feeling the villain's collar and the villain meekly saying, OK, it's a fair cop, guv. I've just spotted a cuckoo in the clouds. Next stop, bunches of vigilantes. Maybe a posse or two.

Alternately, assume that you can do F*** all about it, and allow it to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 04:54 AM

Tut-tut Nigel! Bad language being used by the pompous, self-righteous nit-picker who had the temerity to excoriate me for doing exactly the same thing!

Wot a f***ing hypocritical plonker!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 05:30 AM

Better facilities for young people, better policing, striving for greater equality, educashun (well if you can misuse "alternately" I can misspell "education"!)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 07:34 AM

Doing 'something about it" is not important

Doing "something about it THAT WILL POSSIBLY WORK".is a different matter

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Apr 23 - 12:45 PM

Are you suggesting that we should never attempt to make changes? Do you miss workhouses people dying of treatable conditions because they couldn't afford healthcare, slavery, child labour, European fascism, the Berlin Wall, people sent to the gallows for petty crimes, slums etc ec?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 23 - 03:41 AM

Those things haven't gone, SPB, just changed

Workhouses=zero hours contracts
Bad healthcare=privatisation
Slavery=abuse of immigrants
Child labour=see slavery
European facsism=see Tory party
Berlin wall=Brexit
Gallows=Rwanda

Etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 05:40 PM

So, Nigel Lawson has gone. I for one won't be shedding a tear. If ever there was a man who was wrong about everything: Europe, privatisation, deregulation of the finance sector, creating the economy of the spiv, brexit, climate change... We shouldn't speak ill of the dead so I'll stop right there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 23 - 05:50 PM

To compound the agony we now have Norman Lament eulogising about him on Newsnight. I wonder whether I can find a channel with Bugs Bunny on it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 09:17 AM

...And when I heard Cameron on the World At One eulogising about him (mostly) and justifying his errors (hindsight), I threw a whole boxful of pingpong balls at the wireless. To think that he was "running" this country a few years ago. If anyone needs to disappear permanently into a great big hole, it's Cameron.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Apr 23 - 03:05 PM

As much as I detested him, Thatcher, Tebbit and the rest of the motley crew, I would have them back tomorrow if they replaced this load of con merchants.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 03:54 PM

I fear that distance may be lending enchantment to the view there, Dave. In many regards, this lot are the legacy of Thatcherism. Don't forget what the latter did: turned the utilities that should never have been privatised into the Wild West, selling super-cheap shares to red-wallers to make them into Tory-voting mini-capitalists, freeing up the City and the banks so that they could do what they bloody well wanted to make themselves super-rich, creating illusory booms, and, less than three decades down the line, and connived in by New Labour, sending us all (except them) in 2008 into hellfire for a decade. Oh, and destroying whole industries and communities along the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 23 - 05:36 PM

God, all this bloody nonsense about what Camilla (she who connived in years of cheating on Diana) should be called. I give not a shit. Far more interesting is the Guardian's exposé of the finances of the royals, not just recently but down the centuries. Taking millions from us every year in benefits payments (what else would you call it?) and simultaneously milking us to death via their two major duchies. Go on, have a read. Appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK polemic topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 23 - 08:43 AM

The absurd support of Trumpism, extreme rightism or Thatcherism need not go as far as Germany's final solution and Holocaust. But it could.
The pendulum of societal norms can get small incremental pushes from victimization and hate politics.
Given enough pushes the pendulum can go so far right that it goes up and all the way around full circle.

Decency and goodness are not automatic safeguards to stop the pendulum from spinning all the way around. Decency is fragile. Goodness and love are invisible aromas while hate is incendiary and full of smoke. In this time when three major religions are preaching self-reflection, and that God's love is supremely powerful, they are only hopes of faith.
Daily good deeds and condemnation of evil are both required to create change. I can see how the unfair distribution of resources are a greedy evil and that royalty is a symbol of that wanton greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 02:47 AM

I see Truss is now blaming Biden, the establishment and "woke politics" for her downfall. Google it. Plenty of reports. Politics is getting really sickening to me. Not only do we have inept or corrupt bodies ruining the country, they are also gutless and unable to admit their own failures.

On another subject, I have, for the first time, registered for a postal vote. I just can't be arsed waiting in line for polling staff to explain to all those who have not got ID why they cannot vote. I do hope it backfires on the Tories an that the blue rinse brigade who love Bozo so much have no ID as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 05:04 AM

it probably won't as tories tend to have a higher proportion of postal voters. The irony, or course, is that polling officers will prefer to suppress people's legitimate right to vote on the grounds of their ID not being sufficient - eg their passport being near expiry, whereas with postal votes there is no way of knowing if a single householder decided who the rest of the household is voting for, and has coerced the voters to sign the ballot as their are less checks at post boxes than there are at polling stations. Surely, we need to ensure that polling officers are stationed 24 hours/day at every post box, a polling shelter at each box in case it is raining, and for voters to provide ID before completing their postal vote. At least that way we can be satisfied that the actual voter will be voting without interference behind closed doors.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 05:57 AM

"The irony, or course, is that polling officers will prefer to suppress people's legitimate right to vote on the grounds of their ID not being sufficient - eg their passport being near expiry,'

My passport is 9 years out of date but I will be taking it with me.

Photo ID you'll need

++ The photo on your ID must look like you. You can still use your ID even if it has expired.++

If they don't allow me to vote i will ask them for some form of receipt which states that fact. I have not seen any info about that though.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 07:47 AM

I intend to bring my Republic of Ireland passport as ID.

I have a UK one, and UK driving licence at al, but somehow the Irish one feels most appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 09:04 AM

The deadline for applying for voter ID is 9 days before the local government elections, so if the polling officer is not satisfied that a passport or driving licence picture is not a satisfactory likeness, yuo can in theory lose your right to vote for not getting a new passport before each election.

This can be overcome by installing the same e-gate technology at polling stations as in airports - wasting billions on this is better than a single voter being turned away.

Alternatively, polling stations need to open at least ten days before elections so anyone whose appearance appears 'wrong' can get a voter ID card in time. This would, of course mean closing some schools for two weeks, but better that than denying people the right to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 11:58 AM

As it’s my birthday, I’d made myself a promise that I’d stay well clear of the Mudcat-madhouse but, before I go out with Mrs Backwoodsperson for my posh birthday dinner, I’ll just say that I’ve voted by post since, I think, the 2016 GE. Easy-peasy, no photo ID required, and no having to go out in whatever weather to queue at a polling station. Way to go, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 12:20 PM

"Easy-peasy, no photo ID required, and no having to go out in whatever weather to queue at a polling station. Way to go, IMHO."

But that does rely on Royal Mail delivering your vote on time and to the correct place. That cannot be taken for granted these days.

Happy Birthday by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 12:34 PM

Not in my case, RD - I drop it in at our local Guildhall when I’m out at the shops (the Guildhall is in our small retail park). But yes, you have a point otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 12:34 PM

…and thank you for the birthday greeting! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 02:42 AM

So what are your thoughts on why the decision on Raab is taking so long?

There is a certain type of manager who essentially confirms and authorises what others have recommended. They will commission reports and act on the conclusions. They will hold a meeting and accept the conclusion. That's not a bad way of running things. It is certainly better than assuming you know everything and everyone is just there to do your will.

But this time it appears the remit of the report was only to obtain the facts, not to draw any conclusions. Which means that, whatever Sunak decides, he is wholly responsible for. All attacks on the decision will be attacks on him personally, which cannot be diverted into 'this is what the committee as a whole' decided. He owns it all.

My biggest concern if he decides Raab is not to be punished is that the report will become a handbook in Whitehall and possibly elsewhere, of how far you can go in threatening an employee without it crossing the line into bullying.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 03:38 AM

Milan Kundera refers to crossing the border (the line) and suggests that a border is never crossed but moved.

if Sunak moves the line rather than take action against Raab for crossing the line, this means a change in the future as what is and isn't considered acceptable behaviour.

This would be consistent with the change in which the political left, right and centre has changed over the last 13 years where the right is considered centrist politics, and even right of centre is labelled as left wing, centrist as borderline far left, and left of centre extreme left. In politics, boundaries are not crossed but moved.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 05:07 AM

Did you realise that the anagram of Rishi Sunak is hi risk anus?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 08:25 AM

Well bugger me if I'm not going to call him that from now on!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 09:41 AM

News of the Hour: Raab has sent in a resignation letter. The nature of the letter is exercising the chattering classes summat wonderful, but I'd summarise it as *tantrum*.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 10:35 AM

Probably resigned so that Sunak doesn't have to make a decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 12:32 PM

It has just struck me that, apart from Chris Skidmore, all of the authors of "Britannia Unchained" have reached one of the top offices in the land, and every one of them has proven to be incompetent.

Skidmore has done ok for himself so far, but not reached the heights the others have.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 10:14 AM

So eleven minutes ago I was supposed to get an alert. Well where is It? Or is the government deliberately not alerting lefties so as to put them in danger and eliminate their anti-Tory votes?!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 10:47 AM

Looks like I'm not alone. Twitter is full of reports from non-alertees. I like this one:

"So it seems like UK citizens living in rural locations have been abandoned... No #emergencyalert for us. I guess in the event of an actual emergency we're just supposed to look out for city folk running towards us or something..."

My theory is that they'd put Liz Truss in charge of alerts...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 11:28 AM

Mrs G got one just before 3 and I got a different one 5 minutes later!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 11:46 AM

Just been informed by my lad that his alarm was the same as Mrs Gs.

I have been short changed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 11:50 AM

I have just got my first election leaflet through, apart form one for Labour.

This is just text on cream paper in the style of a letter, with the guy's name and it looks for all the world like something from an independent. There is no logo, no reference to a head office, no photos with the great and good, a simple, almost naive layout and so on.

It is almost as if he did not want to admit he was standing for the Conservatives, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 12:01 PM

BTW Steve, I just got 2 new Puglia wines from Lidl. A Fiano, which Mrs G and I just sampled (very nice too) and a Negroamaro (should there be a space in there?) Rosata which I am about to sample. I don't usually do pinks but I am willing to suffer in the name of scientific experiment.

Oooooh. It is lovely. Will go very well with the Lidl sourdough pizza.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 12:01 PM

...don't expect much sense out of me later :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 12:09 PM

Before the plonk damage is done, I suspect that the test will be declared a resounding success. Much like Musk's rocket ;-) Anyone know who's pockets it has lined yet?

And back to politics, I see that Diane Abbott has been suspended. Is there no end to Sir Keith's push to the right?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 12:12 PM

I am afraid Dianne Abbott gave him no choice when she decided to re-open the anti-Semitism door.   A moment's reflection would have enabled her to make her point in the letter without that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 12:55 PM

Aye, guess you are right DMcG. Sadly Corbyn didn't stand up to the antisemitism accusations and I suppose the Labour Party will now have to live with it forever

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 01:15 PM

Of course he had choice. You might not agree with some of her points but she made them in a measured manner. The mistake she made was deciding to send it off. And she one hundred percent retracted her remarks and apologised properly and fulsomely. The choice he has long made is to look for the very slightest chinks in the leftwingers' behaviour then pounce. He wants the party to be centre-right with no exceptions allowed. Whatever you say, never say socialist. I think he's making a big mistake. He's not strong enough to be doing this sort of thing to Labour and it will come back to bite him on the arse (though they'll have to remove the splinters from it first following his fence-sitting over second referendums, etc.). I had a phone call from a Labour apparatchik the other day, asking me among other things for a donation. I told her I'd probably send one, but not any more I won't. I think they'll soon be losing my membership fee as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 01:35 PM

Diane Abbott story per the Independent

Or, if you prefer, The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 01:49 PM

Starmer knows what the Conservative press did to Labour last time the anti-Semitism row got going, and he knows how long it lasted. I know several people who normally voted Labour who got into a 'no smoke without fire' mindset, thanks to the intensive attack the party was on the receiving end of.

I think he had no choice unless he was prepared to go through that again. I suppose, to be strictly accurate, he could have chosen to do that. It would not have been wise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 03:26 PM

Not wise indeed, not wise because he's too weak to take it on. The Tory press will have a field day with this in any case. Like I said, he wants a leftie-free centre-right party. And he wants that because of that Tory press this guy is a follower, not a leader. Don't mention socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 03:27 PM

My full stop after "press" got lost!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 03:31 PM

Steve.
You picked up recently on my misuse of 'alternately'.
You may wish to check the dictionary for 'fulsomely'
retracted her remarks and apologised properly and fulsomely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 03:37 PM

Cheers, Nigel. I realised that it was the wrong word a millisecond after I'd hit send. I was hoping I'd get away with it. I could have said unconditionally, unreservedly or something else. I haven't been well, you know. See declutter thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 23 - 06:58 AM

I realised that it was the wrong word a millisecond after I'd hit send. I was hoping I'd get away with it.

Ah, a sort of Abbott moment ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 23 - 05:23 PM

I see what you did there... :-)

Subject: BS: Coronation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 12:02 PM

Just a fact or two from me strictly without comment.

The coronation is going to cost around £100 million (probably a conservative estimate).

It will be paid for by British taxpayers.

Charles is worth around £1.8 billion.

Charles did not pay a single penny in inheritance tax on the vast wealth (hundreds of millions) that he inherited from his mother. The royals do not pay corporation tax on their major holdings such as the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall.

The jewellery that Charles inherited from his mother is worth over half a billion pounds. Charles has a personal fleet of luxury cars worth six million pounds.

Every UK taxpayer pays £2.40 every year towards the upkeep of the royals, despite their vast wealth.

Millions of UK citizens are facing massive inflation, the inability to heat their homes and are struggling to put decent food on the table unless they regularly visit food banks. At least some of them will be paying some taxes to pay for the coronation and the upkeep of the royals.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 12:39 PM

The king should live of his own.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 12:51 PM

Preferably on a remote desert island. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 06:43 PM

We have an Inaugcorination of our own every 4 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 07:01 PM

No you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 11:43 PM

What you don't have is Constitutionally guaranteed free speech. Nor does France. Defamation is much easier to prove in Europe. Saying some things in Europe is a crime. You may be aware of the problems and controversy of true free speech but you do not feel it alive in your soul in the way Americans can. The recent trials against Murdoch and Jones are rare here. I wish I could say that without constitutionally guaranteed free speech Europe is better protected from lies. Be it deep fakes or AI. there are better lies coming than the defense of the truth.
That is why I suspect there will be new laws pertaining to new forms of speech and music. It is a brave new world.

Music AI hybrids are already here. Its been done with Drake.
I would like to AI combine Raval and Debussy.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 03:04 AM

A polite reminder - the topic of the thread is THE CORONATION.

As it will be an event of historical and, perhaps, social significance for the United Kingdom, and possibly the last coronation to take place in my lifetime, I will probably watch it on TV. I remember watching the queen’s coronation on my gran’s 10” B&W TV back in ‘53 (we were too poor to be able to afford a TV back then), and it will be interesting to see how things have changed, both in terms of the ceremony itself, and in the TV presentation.

But, as an institution, I believe the Royal Family is well past its sell-by date, and it’s high time the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland became a republic, with a non-political, elected President on the lines of the Irish model. I would also prefer to see the unification of Ireland and NI, but I very much doubt that will happen in what’s left of my lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: G-Force
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 03:33 AM

£2.40 a year? And that's per taxpayer, not per person. Good value IMHO. Or abolish the monarchy and save less than the cost of half a pint? Why bother,

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 04:43 AM

My opening post did say taxpayer. If you're OK with taxpayers who have to resort to food banks (I know at least one, a full-time teacher) handing over money to keep billionaires in the manner to which they're accustomed, then I'm not with you. It's the principle, not the amount.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 05:54 AM

The coronation is going to cost around £100 million

In the 18th century there were four coronations, three in the 19th century, and four in the 20th. It is likely that there will be no more than four this century. Taking the Irish model of electing a president for a seven year term, this gives 14 elections in 100 years.

The Electoral Commission gives the cost of the 2016 Brexit referendum as £129 million. The 2015 UK general election cost around £115 million. This should allow a reasonable estimate of the cost of a presidential election to be made. This is without the pomp and ceremony of inauguration.

Some of the presidents could be returned unopposed, which would reduce costs, but even a lavish coronation would seem to be value for money when it comes to choosing a head of state.

Every UK taxpayer pays £2.40 every year towards the upkeep of the royals

The office of President doesn't come without running costs. There will still be the need for security, posh limmos, state banquets, foreign trips to represent the country, pensions for life after leaving office, etc.

It would be interesting to know how many elected heads of state leave office poorer than when they went in.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 06:18 AM

We are talking about billionaires taking money from poor people, Doug. There's probably something about that in the New Testament.

We are living in very hard times for millions of people. This is not a presidential election. This is the crowning of an unelected billionaire in a ceremony that is designed by the establishment to keep the poor Brits loyal and flag-waving. Naturally, the BBC and most of the press collude. Do try to see it for what it is, and reflect on the sheer waste of that hundred million. The Yorkshire school in which my sister worked until recently is falling down round the kids' ears.

Incidentally, in real terms this bash is costing approximately double what the last coronation cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 07:11 AM

Millions will be proud or ashamed. You may as well enjoy the ride of an ancient political concert Spectacular.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 11:33 AM

A post appeared on my facebook ...asking for suggestions for songs to be sung at Charlies Coronation....... I put 'Your Cheatin Heart'.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 12:07 PM

Trump viewed his inauguration as a coronation, and he did his best to hold the seat even after unelected four years later. Coups are something we hear about when heads of state are toppled, royal or elected. He tried it, and hopefully charges later this year will confirm it.

One of the people who was in charge of the inauguration was a friend (she thought) of Melania's and was appalled at how millions were being misdirected. And she kept the receipts. In the end there weren't charges filed but some of the Trump folks and their friends paid hefty fees, though not nearly as much as they were able to pocket from the hundreds of millions raised through private donations toward the event.

I bring this up to add clarity to Don's remarks and to note that perhaps that is a management plan your royals could adopt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 02:13 PM

Yes, this has been amalgamated within the single 'UK Politics' thread, and I will hold my hand up to having made the request.
It was political right from the start, even if it is the 'politics of envy'.

Don't blame the moderators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 02:19 PM

Donuel: What you don't have is Constitutionally guaranteed free speech.

You're quite right. We don't have 'Constitutionally guaranteed free speech' in part because we don't have, or need, a 'constitution'.

In Europe, or the EU if you prefer, the situation is that something is illegal unless it is specifically permitted.
In UK anything is permitted unless it is specifically banned.

I hope that you can understand this basic difference, and understand how it applies to American law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 02:36 PM

”Don't blame the moderators.”

Perhaps I’m missing something, but I haven’t seen anyone ‘blaming the moderators’, Nigel. Perhaps you’d be good enough to point us to where anyone has ‘blamed the moderators’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 04:53 PM

"What you don't have is Constitutionally guaranteed free speech. Nor does France. Defamation is much easier to prove in Europe. Saying some things in Europe is a crime. You may be aware of the problems and controversy of true free speech but you do not feel it alive in your soul in the way Americans can."

You may well try bravely to add clarity to this, Maggie, but it's just nonsense. In this country, and as far as I know in most EU countries, you may freely say what you like as long as it's not hate speech, speech that puts people in danger or speech that's intended to inflame riots, etc. King Charles is a bloody idiot who cheated on his wife with the woman who is now to be our queen, Boris Johnson is a complete buffoon, our Home Secretary is a racist thug. I can say all those things without fear of reprisal, because I've said nothing illegal. It does not mean that they are all true, but they are not illegal. I would imagine that a lot of Brits would wish I hadn't said one or two of those things. I can't really go much further, but I wouldn't want to, and I believe that most Brits would be with me on that. We've had Holocaust deniers here who have been silenced for going public. Only a fool or a fascist would quarrel with that, and we do get such people. No, they are not within their rights to spout that hateful stuff and, if unfettered free speech would allow them to spout it, then I for one don't want unfettered free speech.

I'm afraid that attempts by Americans to laud their right to free speech impresses me just about as much as does their right to carry guns in the street. It's nothing to be particularly proud of, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 06:12 PM

Now get this. From the Guardian:

Members of the public watching the coronation on television, online and in parks and pubs will be invited to swear aloud their allegiance to the monarch in a “chorus of millions of voices” to be known as the Homage of the People.

People around the UK and abroad will be invited to say the words “I swear that I will pay true allegiance to your majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God”, in a declaration that replaces the traditional homage of peers.

Well I'll be swearing all right, but not in the manner suggested.

I'm expected to declare allegiance to a man who conducts Beethoven in front of his bedroom mirror, who talks to his houseplants, who enthusiastically embraces the fake science of homeopathy, who pays no tax on his vast estates, who cheated on his bride-to-be, Diana, in a railway siding with Camilla on his stag night (he even said he wanted to be her tampon on another occasion), who colludes in the ecological devastation of tens of thousands of acres of Scottish moorland by maintaining them for silly birds for toffs to shoot at, and who sits on his billions by virtue of the royal connection with the slave trade.

Well you declare if you want to. I might have to put you in the same bracket as brexit voters if you do. But it's a free country.   

Christ on a bloody bike...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 23 - 02:03 AM

Another piece of nonsense designed to keep us common people doffing our caps, tugging our forelocks, and in our place - under the thumbs of the immensely wealthy and over-privileged.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Apr 23 - 03:00 AM

From the BBC

Guardian apologises over cartoon of BBC chairman Richard Sharp

The story has been widely reported on other outlets since yesterday. I could not find anything about it on the Guardian site. I assume it will appear there at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 23 - 05:32 AM

As I type this you can see the cartoon on the Sky News website and judge for yourself. Here's what I think: I didn't know that Sharp was Jewish. I did know that he worked for Goldman Sachs (where this rabid leftie has some of his savings...). I didn't see any overt antisemitism in the cartoon, but then again I didn't know that Sharp is Jewish. Now that I do know that, I still don't see any overt or intended antisemitism. Accidental, maybe, though I'm not sure. Deliberate, definitely not. Public figures are the main fodder for cartoonists who like to caricature and I can't see much that's different about this. The Guardian has quickly pulled the cartoon and apologised, as has Martin Rowson, the cartoonist (whose caricatures are always strongly drawn). That's the right thing to do, but I would add the little caveat that we should always be careful who we kowtow to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Apr 23 - 11:33 AM

Backwoodsman: Perhaps I’m missing something, but I haven’t seen anyone ‘blaming the moderators’,

I wasn't saying that they had. I was pre-empting.

If you don't understand that there is a difference between 'don't blame the moderators' (being a request on what you may do in the future) and 'stop blaming the moderators' (a comment about past actions), that is not my fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 23 - 01:27 PM

Nigel, you’re in the wrong job - with that kind of wriggling skill you should take up belly-dancing. Second thoughts…eeeeeuuww, don’t bother!.

FAIL.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Apr 23 - 01:38 PM

No, the failure is in your comprehension of the English language. No wriggling required.
I'm sure the original meaning was understood by most readers here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 23 - 03:09 PM

My English comprehension was good enough for an ‘A’ at O-Level and a ‘B’ in my A-Level thank you, Nigel. The difference between you and I is that I have a SoH, and I have more self-respect than to resort to nit-picking when I know I have no argument.

BTW, what do you do with all those nits you pick? Eat them like the lower primates?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 23 - 04:28 PM

" The difference between you and I..."

You and ME, John. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Apr 23 - 06:17 PM

My English comprehension was good enough for an ‘A’ at O-Level and a ‘B’ in my A-Level thank you, Nigel

If I didn't believe (from previous comments) that you are older than I (am), I would blame it on falling standards.

I'm glad to see that you acknowledge: I have more self-respect than to resort to nit-picking when I know I have no argument. that you have no (valid) argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 23 - 02:32 AM

From ‘Care For Calais’ on FB today - the plain, unvarnished truth about this foul government’s disgusting ‘Illegal Migrants Bill’. Echoes of 1930’s Germany…

”This week the House of Commons passed a new law that is terrifying in its potential.

The Illegal Migration bill will allow this Government to detain and forcibly deport thousands of refugees, simply for having the temerity to ask for asylum in the UK. Its restrictions on people’s rights are truly chilling.

The consequences will be appalling, but we must first understand how it came to pass in the first place.

Its roots lie in the Brexit campaign’s politics of fear. In 2016, Leave campaigners instilled a terror of migration with billboards showing 1,000s of refugees supposedly marching towards the UK. And since then Conservative Governments have stoked that terror, by telling us that refugees are “illegal migrants”.

“Illegal” in this context implies the people in question are criminals, and therefore undeserving of human rights. It is a form of propaganda and discrimination now acknowledged as stage in genocides.

This week Robert Jenrick, the Minister of State for Immigration, said the alien values of people crossing the Channel in small boats threatened the UK’s social cohesion. It is surely impossible to hear that and not be reminded of Gary Linker’s comment about the political language of 1930s Germany.

This seven-year-long deployment of the politics of fear explains how and why we have the Bill. It represents nothing less than using the most vulnerable people in society – they don’t have status or papers, so they can’t defend themselves – to scare us into voting how the powerful want us to. It is bullying on a grand, industrial scale.

Of course the policies themselves are pointless. Even Rishi Sunak has admitted that he doesn't know if this bill will “stop the boats”. But that is not their purpose.

The pressing question is: what will happen when the Bill comes in?

First, let’s look at the detention aspect.

We currently have a huge asylum accommodation issue. We have over 50,000 people living in long-term hotel accommodation, and nearly 100,000 in asylum housing. Provision of that asylum accommodation costs us billions each year, and the cost has at least doubled with the backlog. That is a big increase in profits for some people.

The Illegal Migration Bill will mean that refugees will be housed in detention facilities. The psychological impact on those detained will be immense, but there is a little-noticed financial aspect to this too.

The detention facilities currently proposed will be cheaper, and generate more profit than the current accommodation. Moreover, they will be out of the public eye and not accessible to NGOs and journalists who might expose poor treatment of asylum seekers or advocate for their rights.

It is hard to resist the suspicion that for some, there is a serious financial motive for NOT reducing the backlog.

Finally, will people be deported? Well, the Rwanda scheme is still going through the courts and there are no agreements with any other country to take our unwanted refugees, so it is questionable that anyone will ever actually be deported to a third country.

We must pray, that they are not. And we must fight every day for the humane treatment of those who have, after all, come to us asking only help and safety.”

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 23 - 03:35 AM

”I'm glad to see that you acknowledge: I have more self-respect than to resort to nit-picking when I know I have no argument. that you have no (valid) argument.”

No such acknowledgement there, Nigel - but indisputable evidence that the standard of your English comprehension skills is no better, and possibly worse, than mine. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 01 May 23 - 06:27 AM

What.shouldn't.you.do?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 23 - 07:51 AM

If you're going to indulge in that sort of pretentiousness, Doug, be aware that (a) each word should be capitalised, and (b), there should be gaps between the words.

(Don't worry - I know you were kidding!)

Interesting that in another thread someone else has been called out for using a fairly obscure incorrect word instead of the required common, correct word. Oh, how deliciously do the pretentious fall... We can all make innocent little mistakes, but that one was so daft as to be barely credulous... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 01 May 23 - 08:39 AM

(a) each word should be capitalised, and (b), there should be gaps between the words.

Getting some nit-picking practice in, Steve?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 01 May 23 - 08:54 AM

The A list musicians are refusing to perform for the Coronation.
Adele, Sir Elton John, Harry Styles, and more have reportedly turned down an opportunity to perform at King Charles III's upcoming coronation. The Spice Girls and Robbie Williams are among the other acts who have declined invitations to put on a show at the momentous ceremony, Rolling Stone reported Wednesday. A similar thing happened at Trump's inauguration. Try asking Bruce Springsteen or Nickleback.

Perhaps as a result of inbreeding cousins poor Charlie has a face only a mother could love, and it will be on your new money. Spinach and bean Coronation quiche sounds in keeping with English cuisine imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 23 - 09:23 AM

At a time when our government of greedy, self-serving rogues is waging war against trade unions, preparing a case for the privatisation of the NHS and trying to scapegoat NHS staff for it, demonising refugees from war-zones, protecting the wealth of the immensely wealthy whilst attacking what little wealth ordinary people possess, maintaining policies which ensure home-ownership is beyond the wildest dreams of a substantial proportion of our young people to the benefit of private landlords, and much more besides (for instance, see my post of 01 May 23 - 02:32 AM), I’m astonished that the only thing you people seem to be interested in is one small vocabulary error in one of my posts.

I believe it says a great deal more about you than it does about me…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 01 May 23 - 09:29 AM

It's not the vocabulary that is the problem, BWM; It's the squabbling.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 23 - 09:40 AM

So why try to prolong it by making snide comments, Doug? Why not just mind your own business and let things cool down? That would make more sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 23 - 09:57 AM

Un-po your face, Doug. As I said, I knew you were only kidding! The only time I'll nit-pick mistakes is when (a) he who made them is nit-picking, (b) when the mistake arises out of pretentiousness. Trying to be too clever to impress, sort of style. An example I could randomly pluck from the air would be when someone uses the pretentiously-incorrect and little-used "credulous" when they mean "credible." I find that kind of behaviour to be absolutely incredulous!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 23 - 08:17 PM

Our Bude Memory Café on Friday is a cream tea (wahoo!) to celebrate the c*r*nat*on (bugger...). I will smile sweetly and go with the flow. I even have a plastic Union Jack hat somewhere. We do have a fabulous singer called Johnny Inder for half the afternoon, so that should be good. I will not be betraying my lack of allegiances but two bottom lines I do have: I will not sing God Save the King, and there is no way I will wield a plastic union Jack. Oh Father in heaven, this chalice too shall pass...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 May 23 - 08:03 PM

Well whaddya know. The police have suddenly been given extra powers as from today to suppress protests. From the Guardian:

Official warning letters have been sent to anti-monarchists planning peaceful protests at King Charles III’s coronation saying that new criminal offences to prevent disruption have been rushed into law.

Using tactics described by lawyers as “intimidatory”, the Home Office’s Police Powers Unit wrote to the campaign group Republic saying new powers had been brought forward to prevent “disruption at major sporting and cultural events”.

The new law, given royal assent by Charles on Tuesday, means that from Wednesday:

Protesters who block roads, airports and railways could face 12 months behind bars.
Anyone locking on to others, objects or buildings could go to prison for six months and face an unlimited fine.
Police will be able to head off disruption by stopping and searching protesters if they suspect they are setting out to cause chaos.

Of course, the Home Office (hi, Suella) has claimed that it's pure coincidence that the new powers have been rushed in just in time for the coronation. Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 23 - 06:28 AM

Read into this what you will. I have been in a fair bit of the country over the past week, from arm-and-a-leg properties to sink estates. So far I have seen mainly Liberal signs in windows, quite a few Green, a handful only of Labour and not one Conservative.

The obly Conservative leaflet postes theough my door did not mention in any way he was a Conservative apart from in small print that is on behlaf of SICA without explaining who they were.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 23 - 12:21 PM

If Ed Sherran loses his lawsuit I'm going to copyright 3 ascending notes.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 23 - 01:44 PM

It’s Sheeran.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 23 - 02:24 PM

WTF does that have to UK politics anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 23 - 03:22 PM

True enough Dave. Just realised I broke my personal rule by responding to him - bugger, damn, and blast!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 23 - 05:10 PM

"If Ed Sherran loses his lawsuit I'm going to copyright 3 ascending notes."

Don't worry, chaps. If ever I saw a chap who ain't got the do-re-mi...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 23 - 08:32 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/apr/26/ed-sheeran-testifies-in-marvin-gaye-plagiarism-case-most-pop-songs-can-fit-over-mo
Ed looks like a relative of mine or vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 23 - 03:28 AM

I have just voted using my Irish passport as ID. Everyone was very excited! "Oooh, haven't seen one of those before. It looks very new."

It isn't really, but I normally use my UK one to travel, so it has been kept pretty pristine.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 23 - 04:25 AM

Just heading off with my 9 year out of date passport as id. Let's see how i get on. Just a one mile walk to the polling station. At least it is a sunny morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 23 - 04:54 AM

No voting here today

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 May 23 - 04:58 AM

I voted by post a week ago. No buggering about with photo-ID.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 23 - 08:09 AM

I've opted for that next time BWM. Trouble is with this set of devious bastards I suspect that a law will be introduced making all postal votes with the cross in the wrong place invalid...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Ed.
Date: 04 May 23 - 09:05 AM

My wife and I voted this morning using our, sadly, post Brexit blue passports.

Oddly, we received almost exactly the same response as DMcG:

"Oooh, haven't seen one of those before. It looks very new."

Makes one wonder how easy it might be to forge an ID in order to confound this much needed, nay vital, crackdown on rampant voter fraud....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 May 23 - 03:13 AM

I was able to cast my votes in both the district and town elections. My 19 year old photo idea was accepted ok.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 23 - 04:08 AM

Well I took my driving licence, bus pass, passport, electricity bill and YHA membership card and they still wouldn't let me vote. The issue seems to have been that we don't have elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 23 - 06:52 PM

We're not going to make it, are we? From Labour List: "But, but, but. As of early Friday evening, Sky News’ model puts Labour 28 seats short of a majority, and the BBC puts it 14 seats short. That’s hung parliament territory, which has attracted too little media focus in recent months..."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 May 23 - 01:47 AM

Well Labour won back Dover District Council for the first time in 20 years. It remains to be seen what difference that will make in the long run.

Turnout across the district was 34% I was told, but in my ward it was 21.22%. That is a cause of concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 23 - 03:25 AM

I've just seen that 2 metal detectorists have been jailed for 5 years for not declaring some Viking coins they found. Why is this political? Well, the crime is that any found treasure more than 200 years old belongs to the crown! WTF? Are we still living in feudal times or what. Charlie Big Ears, who already has billions, owns every bit treasure that has been hidden for over 200 years and they will jail anyone who "steals" it!!! And today the country is full of daft prats who will be pledging their allegiance to the greedy bustard. I feel more like emigrating than ever :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 23 - 03:27 AM

https://news.sky.com/story/metal-detectorists-sentenced-to-more-than-five-years-in-jail-12872775

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 May 23 - 04:12 AM

Really? I suggest you check your facts. It seems that they did not find the items. They were aware that what they were doing was illegal.
Sentences do seem harsh but i imagine most people would agree that what they did was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 23 - 04:35 AM

You have missed the point, Rain Dog

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 23 - 04:36 AM

"They were convicted on two charges of possessing and conspiring to sell criminal property worth £766,000, namely coins believed to have been buried by a Viking in the ninth century."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 23 - 04:36 AM

"Under the Treasure Act, any metal object believed to be more than 200 years old is owned by the Crown and must be declared to authorities within 14 days."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 23 - 04:40 AM

The point is that their "crime" was possesing and trying sell treasure that is "owned by the crown" but it is only owned by the crown due to unjust laws. It is akin to hanging people for hunting in royal forests and it seems we have not moved much further than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 May 23 - 04:45 AM

No I don't think I have Dave. Report treasure

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 23 - 06:22 AM

I'm not disputing that the law exists. Just that a law saying all treasure belongs to the crown is a remnant from feudal days and is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 23 - 06:30 AM

Test meaage: I am getting internal server errors posting

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 23 - 06:31 AM

Seems to be connected with longer (but not long) messages

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 23 - 06:37 AM

It is DMcG. Max is working on it

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 06 May 23 - 07:30 AM

From the link provided by Rain Dog The treasure belongs to the state, in other terms, us.

The value goes to the finder and owner of the property. This way the treasure has a chance of staying in the country. I see this as being better than the treasure being smuggled out of the country and stashed away in the vaults of some anonymous rich guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 23 - 07:48 AM

Treasure act 1996
4Ownership of treasure which is found.
(1)When treasure is found, it vests, subject to prior interests and rights—
(a)in the franchisee, if there is one;
(b)otherwise, in the Crown.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 23 - 07:52 AM

The crown, Stanron, not the state. An anachronistic law rooted in feudalism which should have been updated by the 1996 act. But who has to approve all new laws? The sovereign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 06 May 23 - 07:59 AM

But the finders/land owners are given the value of their finds. So you are a Republican, so what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 23 - 08:43 AM

By the way, Morrisons was bloody heaving and the sun has been beaming warmly down on Bude since 11!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 23 - 08:45 AM

Oops, that belongs in the c*ra*ati*n thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 May 23 - 12:43 PM

So you are a Republican, so what? Not particulary Stanron. Just someone that doesn't like the idea that someone who did sweet FA to earn something gets it by default!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 23 - 02:58 PM

While the treasure may 'belong to The Crown', the finders/landowners will be paid a fair market value if it is retained for a museum etc.
If the museums don't want it it is returned to the finders/landowners to keep or sell on.
The finders mentioned in the report appear to have been trying to circumvent these rules. Hence not reporting the find, and possibly denying archaeologists the chance to follow-up on the find. Also (more likely the intent) not advising the landowner on whose property it was found and so not having to pay out a share of the proceeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 23 - 03:24 AM

That, again, is the whole point, Nigel. Why should the treasure belong to the crown? A remnant of feudalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 May 23 - 05:06 AM

The Crown as in tbe state. I am not aware of the Royal Family having a claim on any treasure unless it is found on their land.

The people were prosecuted by the CPS. Was that by the state or the Royal Family?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 08 May 23 - 05:43 AM

Why should the treasure belong to the crown? A remnant of feudalism.

The king can't look at a piece of treasure and think "Ooh, that would look nice on my mantlepiece. I think I'll have that". It stays in a museum or other place of safekeeping until it is decided what to do with it

In modern terms, the crown does not mean the king/royal family. It is synonymous with the State. To argue semantics is the nit-picking that others are so often accused of.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 23 - 05:45 AM

The royal family do not prosecute anyone but the law states that the treasure belongs to the crown. The crown and state are two seperate entitities. Agreements were drawn up when William and Mary were offered the throne. The declaration of rights limited the monarchs powers but they retained the rights to summon and dissolve Parliament, appoint and dismiss Ministers, veto legislation and declare war. It is the veto that ranckles. Why do you think the tenants on Charlies land were not given the right to buy or, back to the point, why the crown retains the right to keep found treasue?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 23 - 06:08 AM

In modern terms, the crown does not mean the king/royal family. It is synonymous with the State.

Sorry Doug but that is still not quite true. And it is not nit-picking. If it was the same, why not abolish the term "the crown" altogether and move towards a state where we are not constantly reminded of our place in society? Well below our feudal lords and masters!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 23 - 06:11 AM

BTW - "The king can't look at a piece of treasure and think "Ooh, that would look nice on my mantlepiece. I think I'll have that"

That is not the crown. That is the person. The crown and personal wealth are two different things but neither are owned by the state.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 23 - 06:12 AM

...yet :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 23 - 05:51 AM

Dave:
That, again, is the whole point, Nigel. Why should the treasure belong to the crown? A remnant of feudalism.

I believe I answered that by implication. If the ownership of 'treasure' was not vested in the crown then it must lie elsewhere. That would be with one of: Original Owners, Finders, Landowner (there could be other possibilities).
It then means that there is nothing to stop the finder from taking and disposing of the treasure as they wish. This would lead to great losses for landowners and the archaeological purists, and our knowledge of British history.
Having a central ownership of found treasure allows the government/crown to insist on rules on how finds must be handled. The crown's ownership, as I showed, does not mean that the crown owns the value of the treasure (this is available to the finder/landowner) but can restrict how the treasure is distributed/disposed of.

If it was not vested in the crown we would have to find another interim owner to provide the same safeguards.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 23 - 05:54 AM

Doug:
To argue semantics is the nit-picking that others are so often accused of.

'of which others are so often accused'
A preposition is not something to end a sentence with!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

;)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 23 - 06:21 AM

I'm happy with all that, Nigel, but object to the central ownership being "the crown". The State or the people, fine, but the crown is a different entity and needs to be removed as the default owner. The sooner we stop harking back to feudalism, the sooner we can begin to demolish the class structure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 23 - 06:30 AM

Dave,
That seems to be the first time you've suggested putting something in place of 'the crown' in this matter. But replace it with 'the state'? Would governments of all colours have the same 'veneration' for our history? Would some governments see the finding of a massive treasure as a way to help their funds, rather than paying the finders?

Until a good alternative is suggested, and thought through, the current system works. Hence the prosecutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 23 - 06:34 AM

It has always been about crown ownership and the connotations behind that, Nigel. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Maybe make the default owner something like the British museum?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 23 - 07:06 AM

There has never been a rule about not ending sentences with prepositions, except ones proposed by po-faced grammar police. But get a load of this beauty:

What did you bring me the magazine I didn’t want to be read to out of about “‘Over Under Sideways Down’ up from Down Under” up around for?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 23 - 10:20 AM

How about this one, Nigel?

"Hey, Mr. Tambourine Man, play a song for me
I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 May 23 - 11:49 AM

Nit-picking is something up with which we should not put. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 23 - 12:03 PM

Steve: I had to check the lyrics, I always remembered it with a double-negative "ain't no place I'm going to". Glad to now get it right.

Exemptions to most English rules are often made for poetry and song writing in order to facilitate rhyme and scansion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 23 - 01:31 PM

But it's not a rule, Nigel. How can you have an exception to not-a-rule?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 May 23 - 04:17 PM

Steve: I didn't mention exceptions!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 23 - 07:02 PM

Quite so, Nigel. I blame muck on my reading glasses. However, I feel that my misreading error didn't really change the sense of what I was trying to say. See what you think!

"But it's not a rule, Nigel. How can you have an exemption to not-a-rule?"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 May 23 - 01:29 PM

what a day.... so much happening and not really sure where the start, still... Not in any particular order of importance.

Gove whining that allowing settled EU nationals and 16-18 year olds to vote would be rigging the election.   Surely if those in that segment decide that they do not want to vote for tory garbage, it is the tory parties own problem, or do they consider that they should just shut up and allow the tory party to continue to **** up their lives without a murmer?

Braverman whining on that British workers are not doing their -patriotic duty to quit their jobs and work in the fields instead so they can justify their xenoph0bic policies of stopping people who are prepared to do seasonal work to put food on our shelves. Not a word about.

(1) Where people relocating from inner city areas will be rehoused. Have locations for housing estates in rural villages and hamlets been earmarked? If village NIMBYs complain, will they be told to **** *** to the inner cities, to provide housing work agricultural workers.
(2) Wil their be adequate schools, health services, retail parks built in villages?
(3) Will agricultural land be seized by the government to provide career pathways for agricultural workers?
(4) Will agricultural workers be abe to take annual leave in the summer?
(5) will agricultural workers be entitled to all year permanent employment?
(6) if not, will employers be required to give workers who are employed in existing jobs absence of leave on top of thier annual leave entitlement, and topping up the wages of the agricultural work in line with their existing employment.
(7) Will agricultural workers who chose not to move permanently to the new housing estates but work seasonally have their housing costs for their main home paid for by their local authority?
(8) Will it be made a criminal offence to not allow workers time off t0 attend agricultural work even if it leads to acute labour shortages elsewhere.
(9) Will school lessons be aligned 100% between children; existing and new/temporary schools so there is no interruption to their studies. Will the teachers in the rural schools be forced to teach every subject covered in the existing schools?

I have probably missed out a few more questions on issues that would be needed to make this a good idea, rather than breaking a system that has worked to everyone's advantage (except for racists) for decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 23 - 05:17 PM

Surely the biggest news of the last day or two that is not recorded here is Farage saying "Brexit has failed.'
My suspixion is it will be hard to find any Leave supporters who say Nigel Farage played any part in their decision making.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 May 23 - 06:02 PM

and mogg whining that the voter ID was gerrymandering but didn't work in the tories favour....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 23 - 08:52 PM

The Tory shit-rags are in full-on, spittle-flecked outrage mode over Starmer’s suggestion that the voting age could be lowered to 16, and that non-UK nationals who have settled-status here might also be permitted to vote. I had to smile wryly at the Daily Heil’s headline yesterday, screaming that it’s an attempt at ‘vote-rigging’!

Strangely, they weren’t similarly exercised by the Tories’ own adventures in ‘vote-rigging’ by moving constituency boundaries to benefit their election prospects, and introducing voter photo-ID regulations - officially to solve the (non-existent) problem of voter-fraud, but actually designed to deter young voters, who are more likely to vote for opposition parties, from taking part in elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Jun 23 - 05:15 PM

Johnson ‘resigned with immediate effect’ after being receiving the report of the Partygate Inquiry. Not before time, IMHO, but he managed to get his arse-kisser cronies their knighthoods and peerages before buggering off.

And, just like his hero Trump, he’s trying to make himself the victim, claiming that it’s part of a Remainers’ plot to overturn the result of the 2016 Referendum and reverse Brexit. What a dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 23 - 05:25 PM

Sir Mogg! Dame Patel! Woo bloody hoo!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Jun 23 - 05:25 PM

Short version: de Pfeffel's resigned as an MP. At least the English news channels only did two hoursworth of "we don't know but we'll tell you anyway" talking-heads coverage: I thought I'd be camping out in the kitchen for days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 23 - 06:15 PM

Labour needs to step back and let these entitled morons get on with the self-immolation. Wheeling out Emily Thornberry to have a go is useless. She's crowing, and, despite her political skills, which I admire, she has as much charm as a week-old dog turd.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 01:38 AM

Johnson’s full resignation statement - nothing more than a spoilt posh-boy’s diatribe of self-pity. Pass me the sick-bowl please…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 04:50 AM

I have this vague feeling that he's less than keen on Sue Gray and Harriet Harman... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 04:52 AM

johns is spouting his sense of self-entitlement to the end , ranting that the Privileges Committee should be all about ensuring that its rooe is to protect elitism and privilege, rather than scrutinise the privileges that MPs have and ensure that they are not abused in the pursuit of personal interests

That fact that he has resigned should not get in the way of there being a recall petition so that a local referendum can be held to remove him from his seat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 06:17 AM

He's already removed himself...?

Amusing in a black-comedic way to see two entitled fat wreckers, one on each side of the Atlantic, whingeing about being witch-hunted. You could almost wish for bringing back burning, or, at the very minimum, the ducking stool...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 07:15 AM

I’m not surprised he’s given The Haunted Pencil a knighthood, but Wiggy Fabricunt? FFS!
Strange that he didn’t give Dorries anything though?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 07:54 AM

Dozy Doris probably got a knighthood but didn't understand the invitation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 08:11 AM

LOL! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 08:48 AM

I think Sunak forbade Dorries and Stanley, actually. He should have dumped the whole lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 09:17 AM

That does not seem to be the case. From the BBC

"Rishi Sunak has approved Mr Johnson's resignation honours list and "forwarded it unamended" to King Charles, the prime minister's press secretary said.

"He had no involvement or input into the approved list," the press secretary said.

By convention, a former prime minister's resignation list of new peers is forwarded to the House of Lords Appointments Commission (HOLAC), which vets appointments."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 10:46 AM

I read that yesterday too, on the BBC News App I believe, RD. But I also read that Dorries and Stanley Johnson were on the list but had been ‘blocked’. By whom (button it Steve), if not Fishy Rishi, one wonders? Possibly HM The King?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 11:18 AM

You could be right, but there is no constitutional basis for these honours lists, and Sunak could have stopped all or any of these appointments. We may never know who they were blocked by, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 11:36 AM

From The Times

"Nadine Dorries has quit as a Conservative MP with “immediate effect” after being told she would not be elevated to the House of Lords in Boris Johnson’s resignation honours list.

The former cabinet minister described her decision as a “relief” and said she had stayed on in the House of Commons after Johnson’s resignation as prime minister only because she hoped to be ennobled.

But her name was not on Johnson’s list of peers after it was vetoed, along with three other serving Tory MPs, by the independent House of Lords appointments commission (Holac).

The commission is understood to have made clear it could not approve serving MPs as it did not know when they would stand down to take up their seats in the Lords and any vetting could be out of date. As a result the commission struck their names from the list."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 12:30 PM

They should have ALL been blocked, Steve. What possible value can such awards have, made as they are by a discredited, disgraced serial cheat and liar who was driven from office in shame by his own party colleagues? Zero, I would say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 12:32 PM

Sorry, that should have been “Self-pitying, discredited, disgraced”…etc., etc., etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 23 - 06:02 PM

Well perhaps it's a conversation for another day, but the Lords is a massively over-inflated place, populated in part by a rather large number of very elderly people who tend to turn up for a snooze and their three hundred quid daily allowance. I was in the audience of Question Time in 2002 and Bumblebee picked me out to make my comment. I said, in front of three million people, that I thought that an elected Lords was a bad idea, and I still think that now. We have enough trouble getting a decent turnout for general elections, even worse for by-elections and council elections. I think that elections for the Lords would attract low turnouts, and low turnouts are absolutely terrible for democracy. We need a national conversation about the Lords. How many members (I'd suggest 200 maximum), what the party balance should be, what the balance between party and crossbenchers should be, how we fix it after general elections so that the balance remains fair, etc. We need experts in there but we also need people who are not part of the establishment. We don't need political appointees and we definitely don't need clerics unless they are proven experts in other fields. I suppose we need an independent panel of very wise people to vet suggested members and to keep that balance. I also suppose that I'm in cloud cuckoo land.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 06:22 AM

The Liberal party gave us the SDLP & the Lib Dems.
Labour gave us 'New Labour'.
Now it's the turn for the Conservatives. A new party based on the conservative (and other) values of an ex PM:

The BJ Party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 07:10 AM

”The BJ Party”

The Blow Job Party? How very appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 10:03 AM

I'm glad the attempt at humour wasn't wasted. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 10:44 AM

The Liberal party gave us the SDLP & the Lib Dems

No! The Labour party gave us the SDLP. The SDLP and the Liberal party gave us the Lib Dems.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 10:52 AM

Forget what I just said! Sometimes I need to get my brain into gear. It was the SDP, not the SDLP.

However, I still don't think the that 5he Liberal party gave us the SDLP.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 11:20 AM

However, I still don't think the that 5he Liberal party gave us the SDLP.

My mistake (both in initialisation & party history)
I was thinking of the SDP which was formed by a faction of the Labour Party. I must have been thrown off by their later alliance with the Liberal Party to form the Liberal Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 11:46 AM

”I'm glad the attempt at humour wasn't wasted. ;)”

The pleasure’s all mine, Nigel. There doesn’t seem to be much for Tory supporters to laugh at just now, does there? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 12:34 PM

There doesn’t seem to be much for Tory supporters to laugh at just now, does there?

Nicola Sturgeon?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 01:57 PM

The LibDems gave us Cameron. Cameron gave us brexit. The LibDems are nothing but opportunist scumbags. I have to vote for them every time to try to keep the Tories out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 05:36 PM

”Nicola Sturgeon?”

Well, until the facts are made public (assuming they are), I’ll have to grant you that one, Nigel. But don’t laugh too loud or too long… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 23 - 01:43 PM

The plain unvarnished truth about Johnson - from the ‘I See You’ Facebook Page. Well worth a read…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Jun 23 - 05:19 PM

UKRI have announced that they will be rolling over continued funding for research projects previously funded by RU Horizons.

As usual, the devil is in the detail...

(1) Will the extent of funding be the same as it would have been if we were still part of Horizons

(2) Will the tax payer be picking up the tab, or will this all come out of the £350 million/week promised to the NHS?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 04:51 AM

Here is a copy of something I have posted elsewhere.

if Mr Johnson were still a Member he should be suspended from the service of the House for 90 days for repeated contempts and for seeking to undermine the parliamentary process, by:
...

d) Impugning the Committee and thereby undermining the democratic process of the House"

Well, Sir Michael Fabricant, consider yourself on notice if you keep implying the committee is biased. Ditto Sir Jacob and the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 04:54 AM

The Partygate report has landed with an almighty (and appropriately-coloured) splat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 05:28 AM

From the Sky News site

"A parliamentary inquiry has concluded that Boris Johnson knowingly misled parliament multiple times with his statements about parties in Downing Street during the COVID pandemic.

The privileges committee of MPs found Mr Johnson's breaches serious enough to recommend a suspension of 90 days if he were still an MP - far exceeding the period needed to trigger a recall petition and possible by-election.

In the highly anticipated report, published this morning, the committee found that Mr Johnson:

• Misled the house on multiple occasions

• Committed further contempt in his conduct by impugning the committee - thereby undermining the democratic process of the House

• Was complicit in the campaign of abuse and attempted intimidation of the committee

In a further sanction, the committee also recommended that Mr Johnson should not be granted a former member's pass to parliament following his resignation as an MP. "

Subject: RE: BS: Trump INDICTED AGAIN (NO new Trmp threads) 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 05:46 AM

Let's just hold our breath for a bit to see if the House of Commins corroborates the committee's report...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump INDICTED AGAIN (NO new Trmp threads) 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 06:24 AM

Predictably Trumpian-style responses from The Liar Johnson to the findings of the committee - despite there being a Tory majority on said committee. What a cock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 06:30 AM

Tory arse-licking twats still defending the proven Liar Johnson on BBC News this morning. They really are a bunch of cocks - high time for a General Election.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump INDICTED AGAIN (NO new Trmp threads) 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 07:06 AM

Strange, or not so strange, how these two men show the same behaviour. Try to sidestep democratic conventions. Break the rules, break the law. Lie in your teeth. Deny all responsibility. Blame others for their downfall in torrid terms. Accuse opponents of running a witch hunt. They are both a serious threat to democracy. As long as the Commons accepts the committee report, which I think it will, Johnson is banned from Westminster for life. He will never again be an MP or prime minister. Of course, whatever we achieve against him, he will always be able to snipe from the sidelines, and the right-wing press (which is nearly all our press) will always afford him the publicity he craves. You'll never rid yourself of Trump for the same reasons, but he seriously needs to be permanently sidelined and never allowed to participate in mainstream politics again. I don't think you can rely on either the Republican Party or the electors to do that. I can hardly say watch and learn as it ain't over until the fat man swings (metaphorically), and the wheels of change grind too slowly. But, once the Trump saga is over (hopefully), the US has to have a serious think about how to stop the kinds of threats to democracy perpetrated by Trump. Its not just a US issue. It's a world issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump INDICTED AGAIN (NO new Trmp threads) 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 07:08 AM

I'll swear I put that apostrophe in there. To he'll with spellcheckers...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump INDICTED AGAIN (NO new Trmp threads) 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 07:24 AM

"Johnson is banned from Westminster for life."

Are you sure about that? I don't think they said he cannot stand as an MP again, unlikely as that may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 08:17 AM

Assuming the report is passed by the House of Commons on Monday, there MUST be a recall petition. Even if Johnson has resigned, the electorate MUST still have the right to remove the lying piece of trash in disgrace. If the Hillingdon electoral office refuse to do this this proves that they are receiving bungs from the tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 09:12 AM

Don't forget that one of the first things the committee did was to change it's remit by removing the word 'deliberately' from 'deliberately misleading Parliament'. If it becomes evident that they did this specifically to be able to find him guilty then perhaps the Committee itself should be investigated for Contempt of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 09:22 AM

You have read some of the summaries, I take it, StanRon? They leave no doubt in my mind the committee thought it deliberate.

I am otherwise tied up today and tomorrow, but I do intend to plough through the whole report in the next few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 09:25 AM

By 'summaries' I of course mean the direct quotations from the report where the committee summarised its findings. I don't mean general opinion pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 09:26 AM

"4. was deliberately disingenuous when he tried to reinterpret his statements to the House to avoid their plain meaning and reframe the clear impression that he intended to give, namely i) when he advanced unsustainable interpretations of the rules and guidance to advance the argument that the lack of social distancing at gatherings was permissible within the exceptions which allowed for gatherings, and ii) when he advanced legally impermissible reasons to justify the gatherings."

Seems pretty deliberate to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 09:41 AM

Well, would have been worse if Jeremy Corbyn was prime minister. At least we are not supplying arms to Russia and inviting terrorists to run the country... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 01:15 PM

Just been watching TV where a bunch of idiots who still support him are coming out with the usual mindless bollocks. Has covid had a serious impact on the mental health of voters here and in the US or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 01:29 PM

> I don't think they said he cannot stand as an MP again

Whether he can or not, "inside the tent pissing out" doesn't apply to de Pfeffel, because he tends to, shall we say, pass judgement from a great height indiscriminately, on anybody and everybody. The only advantage of him being barred from the Commons is that he wouldn't be able to (ab)use Parliamentary privilege when doing so. Loose cannons do not belong on the decks of the ship of state.

Ay well. Perhaps now he'll discover what happens to a man who pisses into the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 01:31 PM

No, DtG, it's Kool-Aid, not Covid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 03:59 PM

You could be right there, Rain Dog. I was going from what I heard a BBC news channel correspondent say this morning. I'll try to never believe what I'm told!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 04:45 PM

Interesting point from Politico

"A sanction from the committee that Johnson then effectively ducks does hand some political ammunition to anyone wanting to keep him down.

While the committee can’t recommend any punishments that apply in perpetuity, if Johnson does re-emerge as an MP, a future government could opt to dredge the whole affair up again by arguing he never did his time."

So, effectively, because he stood down and was never sanctioned, it can be argued that the sanctions could be applied if he re-enters government! Hoisted by his own petard (I hope) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 04:43 AM

Sunak did announce that johnson would not be eligible for reselection by his party, so the only way he could return to parliament would be through standing as an independent or for another right wing party.

As that would mean that he would never advance from the back benches I don't think that would be good enough for his ego to cope with.

of course that could all change is the tories were to abandon Sunak.

What would be important is that if he is every re-elected to the house of commons the 90 day sanction would still apply, so effectively whatever constituency they would be unrepresented for quite a long time.

I will be listening, with interest, how tory MPs will vote on the report.

Those who vote for it risk alienating the extreme right factions, not just in the house, but also in their local membership who no doubt still adore johnson.

Those who vote against would be seen as wanting to uphold their right to use their power in anyway they see fit and not be held accountable for abusing their privileged position.

Abstaining would come across as having no interest whatsoever in the conduct of MPs and ministers which would be just as bad as voting against the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 04:45 AM

The Peter Oborne piece on Double Down News about Johnson’s venality, dishonesty, and incompetence is well worth a watch - all the more so coming, as it does, from a former Tory supporting journalist…

Peter Oborne’s Johnson put-down

Sadly, I still keep hearing from his local supporters that Johnson’s ‘a great bloke’, that he ‘did a brilliant job’ as PM, and that ‘he’ll be back’.

God help us!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 06:52 AM

I've heard it said in this last week that the Tories tend to fall apart after a decade in power. Examples: the end of SuperMac in the early 1960s ("thirteen years of Tory misrule"; Alec Douglas-Home provided the codicil); the end of Maggie Hatchett's reign (codicil: John Major); and now de Pfeffel's clown show (codicil: Sunak). That's not to say Labour don't also suffer from this (eg the Blaire/Brown years).

This methinks is ultimately a result of First Past the Post: each major party is itself effectively a coalition. Once any coalition has been in power for long enough, the tail ends up wagging the dog, and the coalition falls apart. In the UK, unlike under Proportional Representation, they can't then regroup with a different set of partners.

So: each major party can do one of two things: run the country, or combat its internal fragmentation. And *that*, mesdames et messieurs, is why each party needs a long time out of power for its headbangers to cool their heels.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 07:33 AM

Good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 12:57 PM

Last Night on "Newsnight" , Brendan Clarke-Smith was very clear he was voting against the report.

By all accounts, 24 hours later, he and 6 other MPs who were proclaiming
yesterday that they would vote it, have apparently decided to abstain.

All together now "Brave Sir Robin":

rave Sir Robin ran away,
Bravely ran away, away.
When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly, he chickened out. Bravely taking to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 04:40 PM

Or, maybe to quote more Python. "He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy" :-)

Jonathan Pye nails it again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 07:04 PM

The Monday vote will be a damp squib in terms of what will be its lack of sensationalism. However, many a Tory MP will feel a tad awkward about explaining to their constituents why they voted for/against/chickened out. And Risky Sumach simply won't be able to do the Right Thing whatever he decides. Poor chap. Poor chap of his own making.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 02:30 AM

That is only true, Steve, if it is forced to a vote, whereaa it seems the plan of the Johnson supporters ia to let it pass without a vote. That way they do not actually record if they were for, against or would abstain.

I think it worth sacrificing a vote or two in favour to force a vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 04:25 AM

I hadn't thought of that possibility. The report of a Commons committee has to be ratified by the House. Can that happen without a vote, and how would a decision to bypass a vote be agreed on?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 05:59 AM

For all those cheering on the sanctions (not yet applied, the committee didn't have that power) it is worth noting that Boris claims they were working outside their remit.
Since he made that claim BBC News (among others) have carried the story:
The committee said the initial proposed sanction was increased "in light of Mr Johnson's conduct" in recent days - including breaching confidentiality rules and "being complicit in the campaign of abuse and attempted intimidation of the committee".

Mr Johnson's statement was "completely unacceptable", they said.

Surely increasing the proposed sanction based on anything other than 'Partygate' and Boris comments at the dispatch box is also outside their remit. They seem to be proving Boris' point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 08:08 AM

Yes, Nigel. Boris reckons the parliamentary privilege committee should be there to make sure he remains privileged. The actual remit of the committee, as stated on the UK parliament website is -

"The Committee of Privileges is tasked with the investigation of potential contempts and breaches of privilege, as well as considering wider matters relating to parliamentary privilege from time to time, as instructed by the House. The Committee can only consider matters referred to it by the House of Commons as a whole. It reports to the House its conclusions on whether a contempt or a breach of privileges has occurred and its recommendations on any sanctions – final decisions on these matters also have to be taken by the House as a whole."

They were instructed by the house. They investigated contempts and breaches of privilege. In what way were they working outside their remit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 08:44 AM

In what way were they working outside their remit?

You quote their remit in general, but include that it is to only consider matters referred to it by the House of Commons as a whole.
The committee was due to decide on the historical actions and speech of Boris. On 21 April 2022, the House of Commons, without division, referred to the Committee of Privileges a matter concerning the conduct of the Rt Hon Boris Johnson MP, the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip, that is, whether he had misled the House and whether that conduct amounted to a contempt. From Here. Their latest actions appear to be outside this remit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 08:57 AM

But Nigel, the sanctions are not being increased due to anything Bozo has said since. In fact, seeing as he has run away, they are not going to be applied at all. He is lucky he said what he did about the committee before he chucked the towel in. It is only because he was using parliamentary privilege that he got away with his defamation of the committee.

I suppose you also think that Trump won the last presidential election and that he should get away with his lies too?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 10:20 AM

Re "inside the tent pissing out", I wish to correct the record*: the little offender has found an even higher place to stand on while pissing inward. Whether this displays Olympian detachment (strictly in the sense of "passing judgement from a sufficiently great height that there's no splashback") is yet to be determined.

* Ahem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 10:31 AM

The Committee is an arm of Parliament. It can't enforce any sanctions. That can only happen if the Commons approves its findings (and let's not forget that the Commons has a thumping Tory majority). His behaviour towards the Committee could be judged as having been in contempt of the Committee, by extension contempt of Parliament itself. It would be unconscionable were he to be able to say whatever he liked about the Committee, no holding back, with no sanction available. By saying what he's said, he is holding the electorate in contempt and he is attempting to undermine democracy. It's as bad as that, Nigel. In any case, the Commons has the power to amend the report's suggested sanctions or to reject it altogether. I've done a fair bit of googling and, so far, I've seen the "beyond remit" argument put only by Johnson and a few of his backwoods allies - and you! Your googling may differ, and probably does... but be careful who you side with!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 03:19 PM

But Nigel, the sanctions are not being increased due to anything Bozo has said since.

per the committee: Motions arising from reports from this Committee are debatable and amendable. The Committee had provisionally concluded that Mr Johnson deliberately misled the House and should be sanctioned for it by being suspended for a period that would trigger the provisions of the Recall of MPs Act 2015. In light of Mr Johnson’s conduct in committing a further contempt on 9 June 2023, the Committee Matter referred on 21 April 2022 (conduct of Rt Hon Boris Johnson): Final Report 7 now considers that if Mr Johnson were still a Member he should be suspended from the service of the House for 90 days for repeated contempts and for seeking to undermine the parliamentary process,
Motions arising from reports from this Committee are
debatable and amendable. The Committee had provisionally concluded that Mr Johnson deliberately misled the House and should be sanctioned for it by being suspended for a period that would trigger the provisions of the Recall of MPs Act 2015. In light of Mr Johnson’s conduct in committing a further contempt on 9 June 2023, the Committee
Matter referred on 21 April 2022 (conduct of Rt Hon Boris Johnson): Final Report 7 now considers that if Mr Johnson were still a Member he should be suspended from the service of the House for 90 days for repeated contempts and for seeking to undermine the parliamentary process,
That certainly reads to me that the committee was looking for a 10 day suspension (enough to allow a recall petition) but has now increased it to 90 days just because its judgement has been called into question!

You, of course, may read that differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 03:46 PM

Dave the Gnome: It is only because he was using parliamentary privilege that he got away with his defamation of the committee.

I was not aware that he had made the claims within the debating chamber of Parliament.
Comments made elsewhere do not benefit from 'parliamentary privilege'.

And, of course, it is only 'defamation' if it is untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 04:02 PM

That's an interesting point of view Nigel, and I can see a logic to it
But to settle it in my mind, I tried this thought experiment. Suppose when they called Johnson to testify before the committee he had refused
That would not be contempt within the period Parliament agreed for onvestigation, but to me it would be clear contempt and should incur a penalty. This leads me to the view that all actions up to the point of publication of the final report could also be valid inatances of xontempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 04:09 PM

Nigel. Boris is a lying scumbag. I have known it for years. Millions of others have known the same. There is a Web site dedicated to it. It has been proven time and time again. The parliamentary committee has confirmed it. There is little doubt that on Monday Parliament itself will ratify it. He cannot help himself. He is a sociopathic narcissist who will do anything for power and attention. I feel sorry for those he has fooled but they should feel no shame as they were conned by masters. All you are doing is what you do best; picking at nits.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 05:14 PM

”All you are doing is what you do best; picking at nits.”

…and, as ever, trying (and failing dismally) to defend the indefensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 07:13 PM

Well there is, in Nigel's statements, a distinct element of an effort to defend the indefensible. However, that in itself is a bit of a sideline. I'm with DMcG on this. And I'd add, again, that the Privileges Committee is not separate from the Commons. The Commons, elected by us, elected the Committee. The Committee is answerable to the Commons and has no power of its own. We are not talking court of law here. We are talking about constitutional matters. Boris Johnson excoriating the Committee in such intemperate tones can't be right, even coming from him. We know that Trump will automatically deny and disparage each and every adverse criticism of him, right up to and including indictments. We now know that Boris sings from that self-same Trump hymn-sheet. So should we let this go? Well I don't think we should.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 01:25 AM

As I mentioned on another thread, both bozo and agent orange are following Vlad the mad"s example. Lie and lie until people believe that your lies are the truth. He has years of an iron rod state behind him while the blonde buffoon has the press barons and donny boy has the Bible bathers. Hopefully, as the people of the UK and the USA have not been as subjugated as those of Russia we will not let either of them get away with it a second time. I hope!

In words of The Who. We won't get fooled again


Will we?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 01:30 AM

A comment on this 'court of law' spin that is being put around. There are two sorts of court of law in the UK. In a criminal court, the matter must be settled beyond reasonable doubt. But in a civil court, the standard is 'on a balance of probabilities.'

So even in 'a court of law', a properly constituted one could find against Johnson. I would argue, for example, that while the breaches of the covid rules are similar to criminal charges, lying in Parliament is closer to civil cases.


"When proving a civil case, it must be 'on the balance of probabilities' which is is a lower standard of proof as required for a criminal matter." - - notes from an arbitrary selected solicitor

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 01:51 AM

Yesterday's Telegraph (of all papers) front page banner headlines.   "Carney blames Brexit for inflation"

Well.............. he did predict.

Nay-sayers are bound to blame COVID and Putin (as if the Czar had no influence on Brexshit), but they are the unspecified self-propelled goalposts that remainers couldn't name but knew were inevitable.

Those of us who have lived long enough know that recessions come along every 15 to 20 years (give of take a conflict**) because that is a generation that were too young/got lucky/didn't learn last time.   Brace yerselves Mucatters.

**Brexshit was certainly a conflict, and.........

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 01:52 AM

Bible bathers should have been Bible bashers but once again auto correct has given me a phrase that I like :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 03:33 AM

”In words of The Who. We won't get fooled again”

I’ve never been fooled by that pair of tossers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 07:34 AM

Iy seema this video going the rounds had not been seen by the police. A spokesperson for Bailey and co says this has been investigated and the matter is now closed.

I am sure they remember a different tack was taken with Starmer and many Toriws fought to reopen the investigation, eventually succeeding.

Given what appears to be new evidence, will they be so adamant this needs to be reopened?

Let me gueas

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 09:54 AM

> In words of The Who. We won't get fooled again

Remember how that song ended, DtG: Ave bossa nova, similis bossa seneca ....

DMcG:
> lying in Parliament is closer to civil cases

A curious thing I've noticed over the years: doing something doesn't attract as harsh a penalty as conspiracy to do said thing, which is why the Plod seem to prefer to charge people with conspiracy. The same seems to apply to being naughty and telling lies about it afterwards; the lying compounds the offence, as evry ful kno.

.... Damn --- now I can't rid myself of the image of de Pfeffel in school uniform, stood outside the Headmaster's study, shoving a book down the back of his (short) trousers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 10:00 AM

Everyone knows that the rules were only put in place to protect our master race in case any of US inferior sub humans might be carrying Covid and risk infecting our betters. The law only existed to keep s**m like us in our place and therefore does does apply to tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 02:40 PM

Before anyone else says it,
All those Conservative party 'workers' in the Daily Mirror video do deserve fixed-penalty notices.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 02:57 PM

Nice to agree wholeheartedly, Nigel.

There is a question why the video has taken to long to surface, especially when the matter was investigated by the police, but that is a separate matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 06:04 PM

There is a question why the video has taken to long to surface, especially when the matter was investigated by the police

It might be disingenuous, but I'm guessing it was deliberately put out before tomorrow's vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 06:20 PM

And for those, not just DaveTheGnome, who assume that everything that proceeds from Boris' mouth must be a lie:
Nigel. Boris is a lying scumbag. I have known it for years. Millions of others have known the same. There is a Web site dedicated to it. It has been proven time and time again. The parliamentary committee has confirmed it. There is little doubt that on Monday Parliament itself will ratify it. He cannot help himself. He is a sociopathic narcissist who will do anything for power and attention. I feel sorry for those he has fooled but they should feel no shame as they were conned by masters (a master?).

If he had gone before the committee and said "Ok. you've got me bang to rights" would you have assumed he was lying and exonerated him?

There is a problem with assuming that someone you know has lied before is automatically lying (unless it happens to agree with your own preconceptions).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 06:39 PM

What is unfortunate that the select committee's terms of reference was limited to his conduct in the house of commons and before the select committee, and not taking into account his hostory of being a liar throughout his life.

What annoys me most is:

(1) Tory party members elected the liar as leader of the toey party.
(2) The s**m who voted tory knowing the kind of filth johnson was.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 07:04 PM

The most amazing thing to me is that they were all jigging away knowing that someone was videoing it. I mean, bloody Nora...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 07:19 PM

SPB: What annoys me most is:

(1) Tory party members elected the liar as leader of the toey party.
(2) The s**m who voted tory knowing the kind of filth johnson was.

Is that as opposed to the people (I won't lower myself to your, or Angela Rayners', terms) who were happy to vote for Corbyn, despite the view that most of the Parliamentary Labour Party now seems to have of him?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 07:35 PM

Nigel, Jeremy Corbyn was neither scum nor a liar. He would have made a poor leader, in the eyes of some, but he is a man of high principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jun 23 - 07:39 PM

Steve: Nigel, Jeremy Corbyn was neither scum nor a liar. He would have made a poor leader, in the eyes of some, but he is a man of high principle

I, deliberately, did not describe him as either!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 01:43 AM

There are a fair number of Tory MPs who are saying they will abstain on the Privileges committee vote because they think 90 days is excessive.

It is exceptionally unlikely to happen, but I think I would quite like to see an amendment to reduce the penalty to 20 days which would force them to vote to support the report, or else show their claim it was that the recommended penalty was too high was just an excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 02:40 AM

But he didn't say that did he Nigel. He tried to lie and bluster his way out of trouble like he always does. It is very rare that I have no trust at all in someone but given bozos past record I think I am right to question everything that he says.

And, yes, conned by masters. The press barons and billionaires who glossed over all of Johnson's faults while orchestrating a relentless attack on Corbyn. I am one of the ones who believe that Corbyn made a poor leader but, as Steve said, he is a man of principle.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 06:52 AM

”I am one of the ones who believe that Corbyn made a poor leader but, as Steve said, he is a man of principle.”

And that is an undeniable fact that no amount of nit-picking can deny. I also thought he was as wet as ditchwater as a leader - he didn’t even defend himself with any conviction against the bare-faced lies of the Right-wing Tory press - but his principles, and his determination to stick to them, were beyond reproach.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 07:36 AM

"He didn’t even defend himself with any conviction against the bare-faced lies of the Right-wing Tory press..."

Because, refreshingly in my view, he didn't surround himself with parasitic spin-doctors. Refreshing, probably naive, but principled. He couldn't defend himself very well either against the vicious, hypocritical bastards in his own party who successfully tarred him with the utterly bogus antisemitism brush, not to speak of the scheming aresholes who would join his shadow cabinet. "We'll lose an election on purpose then we'll be rid of him and his fellow lefties." Unforgivable, and one of the main reasons we ended up with Johnson and brexit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 07:39 AM

Would=wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 09:25 AM

One of the reasons Johnson won in 2019 is that Corbyn was so clueless about how to defeat the Tory lies - both the lies against himself personally, and the lies about Brexit, or the lies about the last Labour government ‘bankrupting the country’, or any of the other lies that were put about by the Right-wing Tory press. He lacked the ringcraft of a great fighter in an election, and was an easy target. And it’s worth bearing in mind that a man of principle doth not automatically a good Prime Minister make.

And, TBH, I doubt if the average voter-in-the-street had the slightest interest in the internal battles of the LP, they were led by the nose by Johnson’s ‘Get Brexit Done’ horse-puckey.

It was the growth of ‘Presidential Election-style’ personality-politics that was a major factor in Corbyn’s and Labour’s downfall - neither he, nor the party, had answers to the shameless, shameful propaganda of the multi-millionaire, Tory-supporting press-barons. And I won’t be surprised if the Tories, despite the pitiful performance of successive Tory governments over the past thirteen years, lie their way in to power again in 2024.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 10:10 AM

Murdoch helped Blair to do rather well. You are underestimating the non-democratic sheer power of a right-wing media and overestimating the ability of an individual to overcome it. What happened to Corbyn (once he'd unexpectedly put the shits up Theresa May by robbing her of her majority, by the way, lest we forget) also happened to Michael Foot and Jimmy Carter, and, had Tony Benn got anywhere near the Labour leadership, it would have happened to him too. Jeremy Corbyn did not make a strong and charismatic leader, we're agreed on that, but I'm not going to agree on much else. The attacks on him were two-pronged, from the media from from within his own party. The perpetrators of the latter have a lot to answer for in terms of what's happened since. And Starmer is now their anti-left, anti-broad church cheerleader. It will end in tears. Starmer thinks Labour belongs to him, and he's got another think coming. You want charisma in a leader? OK, I'll give you Mussolini, Franco, Hitler, Stalin, Thatcher, Mao, Putin, Trump...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 10:47 AM

I just realised that the press orchestrated an ABC campaign

Anybody But Corbyn

(Boring Monday afternoon...)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 05:48 PM

If you didn't already know, the commons have voted to accept the findings of the committee. In total the report was endorsed by 354 votes to seven. Only 7 Tory MPs voted against it. 118 Tory MPs endorsed the report including several cabinet members.

Anyone on here want to carry on sticking up for him?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 05:56 PM

I met an ancient Yankee redneck in Sicily in 2019, old guy with a John Bolton moustache with a Redsox baseball cap, who told me that the 2016 election, as far as he was concerned, was about "anyone but Hillary." There was a leftie Scotsman, about 6'4" tall, with us at the time. I had to get between them to protect the redneck...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 19 Jun 23 - 09:58 PM

> Only 7 Tory MPs voted against it.

Point of order: it was six Tories, plus the Labour chief whip who'd forced the vote by loudly saying "Deny" (or whatever it was). Abstainers may or may not have included some of the small group of Tories which Herself noted were huddled together in one corner of the House, possibly for warmth, looking like a bunch of fourth-formers sharing a sneaky smoke behind the bike sheds.

.... I'd best leave it there.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 01:25 AM

Point of order.

7 Tories voted against

2 Labour Tellers for the division voted against. Those votes are not counted in the totals of those voting for or against the motion.

2 Labour Tellers for the division also voted for. Those votes are also not counted.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 01:30 AM

The seven Conservative MPs who voted against the report were Bill Cash, Nick Fletcher, Adam Holloway, Karl McCartney, Joy Morrissey, Desmond Swayne and Heather Wheeler.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 02:51 AM

At least the seven who voted against were voting the their principle that they believe that ministers have the right to lie and hold voters n contempt.

The abstainers are worse because the hold the opinion that lies, corruption, accountability and scrutiny are not relevant in a representative democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 03:09 AM

There were something like 250 abstainers. Personally, I find these worse than the people who voted against, as they were at least prepared to show the courage of their convictions.

There are valid reasons in a few cases for abstaining. But for the majority, I think they looked at their prospects come the next election and decided they could not afford to upset the remaining Boris fans, nor those who thought he needed to be found guilty, so as a matter of pure self interest did not vote.    Come the next election, they will not mention it or, if forced, take whatever line has seemed to have worked best for someone over the year or so between this vote and the election.

Sunak, by the way, has no valid reason for skipping the vote. Skipping the debate, possibly, but not the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 06:06 AM

Let the record show that I stand corrected.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 02:51 PM

Looks like Penny Mordaunt is lining herself up to replace fishy Rishi. Any views?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 04:03 PM

Do you have a source for that, Dave - not doubting what you’re saying, just would like to read up on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 04:23 PM

You guys have been in a 13 year cycle of doom. What's it going to take? A labor win?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 04:25 PM

Just Google Penny Mordaunt nees, John. She is making the right noises and a couple of the right wing rags seem to think so. Including this piece in the Express

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1782648/penny-mordaunt-boris-johnson-conservative

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 04:52 PM

Thanks Dave, interesting stuff! When she was carrying the sword at the coronation, I remarked to Mrs Backwoodsperson that we could be watching the next leader of the Tory Party. I was **kinda** joking, but maybe I was nearer the truth than I realised…?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 04:55 PM

You're welcome, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 05:06 PM

BTW - Amyone think we should put this chapter to bed as it reaches 1000 posts and start a new one?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 05:12 PM

1,000

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Jun 23 - 05:29 PM

Good idea, DtG: I can't get past the picket fences around the original MOAB thread (even for research purposes), and wouldn't like this thread to suffer the same ignominious fate. I hereby respectfully request that some kind MudElf create Thread the Third, add branch links forward and backward, and close this'n to prevent it becoming an inadvertent bear trap for future thread archaeologists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 02:10 AM

I second that motion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 02:11 AM

I third it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 02:20 AM

I'll drop a note to the team.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 05:59 AM

The new thread

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Jun 23 - 07:37 AM

MajoC the filk, sorry I did not know MOAB was insulated.