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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2

Rain Dog 17 Nov 22 - 05:45 PM
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peteglasgow 22 Dec 22 - 08:15 AM
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The Sandman 27 Dec 22 - 01:52 PM
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The Sandman 28 Dec 22 - 11:26 AM
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Donuel 30 Dec 22 - 03:47 PM
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Dave the Gnome 31 Dec 22 - 03:44 AM
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DMcG 01 Jan 23 - 06:35 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jan 23 - 06:57 PM
Senoufou 02 Jan 23 - 02:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jan 23 - 03:39 AM
The Sandman 02 Jan 23 - 04:01 AM
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Steve Shaw 02 Jan 23 - 05:44 AM
The Sandman 02 Jan 23 - 05:54 AM
DMcG 02 Jan 23 - 06:14 AM
The Sandman 02 Jan 23 - 06:31 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jan 23 - 06:37 AM
The Sandman 02 Jan 23 - 06:48 AM
Raggytash 02 Jan 23 - 07:20 AM
The Sandman 02 Jan 23 - 07:42 AM
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The Sandman 07 Jan 23 - 01:33 PM
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Steve Shaw 11 Jan 23 - 04:43 AM
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Dave the Gnome 11 Jan 23 - 11:31 AM
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MaJoC the Filk 12 Jan 23 - 07:31 AM
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DMcG 12 Jan 23 - 08:47 AM
MaJoC the Filk 12 Jan 23 - 09:04 AM
Backwoodsman 12 Jan 23 - 11:10 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Jan 23 - 06:17 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Jan 23 - 07:53 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Jan 23 - 08:08 AM
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Nigel Parsons 14 Jan 23 - 10:03 AM
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Rain Dog 14 Jan 23 - 10:22 AM
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Rain Dog 16 Jan 23 - 09:07 AM
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Stanron 17 Jan 23 - 05:08 AM
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Bonzo3legs 17 Jan 23 - 06:20 AM
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Steve Shaw 24 Jan 23 - 03:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jan 23 - 10:48 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jan 23 - 04:27 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 23 - 05:01 AM
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Dave the Gnome 27 Jan 23 - 04:40 AM
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Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 23 - 12:55 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 05:45 PM

"The freeze on tax thresholds is nothing short of criminal."

All thresholds?

They were already frozen until 2025/26. Hunt has extended that freeze until 2028. That might well change of course depending on circumstances and/or a change of government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 08:28 PM

I have nothing against freezing or bringing down the thresholds for higher earners. But freezing those AND the one that hits the lowest earners is what Tories do. All in it together, remember?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 01:26 AM

Our resident cap-doffing, forelock-tugging Tory-apologists are noticeable by their absence. Wonder why they’re not here explaining to the simple folk why the contents of *unt’s Autumn Statement will be good for us all? Could it be, perhaps, that even they are getting a little tired of taking it up the arse from their masters?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 04:14 AM

One thing that is being under-remarked on, in my view, is the daily in the social care funding. In raw budget terms, it is understandable since it is a huge additional cost that we are not yet paying.   But: it is very well known that one of the big problems with the NHS 'efficiency' is the number of NHS hospital beds occupied with people who cannot be discharged as there is no person or organisation to care for them. If you really want to improve the efficiency of the NHS, one of the biggest single things you could do is invest in social care.

One more remark on NHS efficiency - and efficiency in general, come to that. A friend I had worked in NHS admin and part of her job was consolidating notes from various sources. She was hauled over the coals and eventually sacked because she was too slow and did not meet the daily average of others in the office, most of whom highlighted a section of notes and then copy and pasted it into the combined document. As a result they processed many times the amount she did.

Now to the related story. A friend of my wife broke her left arm and they decided she needed an MRI scan. After around three weeks she turns up and they are all ready to scan her left wrist. She objects, pointing out it is her right arm in the sling. No, the notes say they need to scan he wrist. If, however, she signs to say she is refusing treatment ... No way, she says, I am not having "refused treatment" in my notes.


What is happening here is that in the drive for 'efficiency' the wrong thing is being measured, and 'effectiveness' is being lost. The two are three seconds saved by not checking whether the notes were being pasted into the right person's notes (which is what I suspect went wrong)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 04:15 AM

... have been more than paid for with faulty appointments wasting the time of many more, more expensive staff and equipment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 10:54 AM

It's an old problem, DMcG: Local optimisation is always easier than the global sort. If you can't measure the important thing, find something you can measure, which may or may not be related, and call that important.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 11:18 AM

But: it is very well known that one of the big problems with the NHS 'efficiency' is the number of NHS hospital beds occupied with people who cannot be discharged as there is no person or organisation to care for them. If you really want to improve the efficiency of the NHS, one of the biggest single things you could do is invest in social care.

Yes, the hospitals need somewhere to discharge patients to avoid bed-blocking.
The ideal would be 'cottage hospitals', or 'respite centres'!
Unfortunately, they're gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 11:47 AM

Social care is generally in the remit of the local authority. It does tend to get more complex than that of course. If the social care is required for a long term illness, such as dementia (I have gone through the process with both my late parents) the NHS will fund it. By derestricting the amount that the local authorities can raise their council tax, Hunt has introduced an additional tax that I am sure he will state has nothing to do with him and everything to do with the local authority in question. We all know of course that shifting the responsibility to the local authority is simply a way of cutting down on what central government spends. It remains to be seen whether this will be good or bad for health care but one thing is sure. We will all pay more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 12:49 PM

By derestricting the amount that the local authorities can raise their council tax,

The possible rise in council taxes has not been 'derestricted', the cap on possible rises has been raised. There is still going to be a restriction of 5% (So council taxes will not even rise in line with inflation, without needing a referendum)
The fact that councils are permitted to charge more does not automatically mean that all council taxes will now rise to meet the new cap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 03:34 AM

Unison president Andrea Egan expelled from Labour Party

Does not seem to have had much coverage in the MSM.

Don't know how many people Labour employ to read through social media postings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 04:17 AM

The fact that councils are permitted to charge more does not automatically mean that all council taxes will now rise to meet the new cap.

Hahahahahahahahahanahaha

Oh, and

Hahaha


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 05:44 AM

I thoroughly dislike the term "bed-blocking" and refuse to use it. Those people who can't be discharged because the care system is broken are completely blameless. If anyone is "blocking" hospital beds it's the bloody Tories and their shameful policies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 02:27 PM

Steve, go ahead and blame the Tories if you wish. But whose government closed the cottage hospitals?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 03:30 PM

Well I've said several times before that I hold no candle for the New Labour years. But, twelve years on, shall speak as we find?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 02:57 AM

Maybe that should be 40 years on, maybe more, shall we speak as we find. Successive governments have ignored this problem, preferring to leave it for the 'next lot' to try and sort. Meanwhile the problem just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

One day, perhaps, a government will decide to try and do something about it. One day, perhaps, the population will agree on a way to fund it and the best way to use that fund. I doubt that is going to happen within the next few years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 04:31 AM

The last twelve years because the NHS and care sector are in a far worse state now than they were twelve years ago. A&E, waiting lists, waiting times, access to GPs... There are plenty of wrinklies like me whose adverse experiences abundantly attest to the unacceptable decline. Tory ideology has been opposed to the NHS right from the get-go in the 1940s and nothing has changed. Know thine enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 05:45 AM

Interesting and purely factual analysis here

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

Interesting graphic towards the end labelled "Changes in UK public spending on health"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 06:17 AM

Yep, the two graphs at the bottom spell out nicely the Tory attitude to the NHS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 06:36 AM

74 years since the start of the NHS and it is still with us. 74 years in which the Tories have been in government for the majority of that time. 74 years and the NHS is one of the biggest employers in the world.

I think we can all agree that things could be better. That will mean that more needs to be spent by all of us. We need a sensible conversation about that.

The system itself also needs looking at. So far I have had little need of the NHS for myself. Between 2015 and 2018 my mother did. In the last 2 years of her life she had more ambulance trips to A&E and stays in hospital. I spent a lot of that time in the hospital with her, in A&E waiting for treatment and then a move onto a ward. When on the ward, I and another brother spent time with her outside of normal visiting hours, assisting at mealtimes. You do see a lot and it was a wake up call.

There are no easy solutions. Most people don't want to think about social care problems until it affects them personally. Growing old is not for the faint hearted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 07:01 AM

74 years during which the Tories have not dared to scupper the NHS, a move that would consign the Tories to the dustbin of history where they belong. Over the last twelve years they have been doing it by stealth. The problems now caused by chronic underfunding (see graphs) are put down by Tories to "top-heavy bureaucracy" and "inefficiencies." They want the public to gradually fall out with the NHS, then they can do what they like with it. Like I said, know thine enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 07:54 AM

A lovely example of how to lie with statistics. That graph, here's the link again;

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

does not show spending on the NHS. It shows INCREASE of spending on the NHS.

Decrease in spending is when the graph goes below the base line. It shows three very short instances when this happens. Between 1950 and 1960, the late 1970s and mid to late 1990s. The last one was definitely a Labour Government. The second one is difficult to tell. Government went between Harold Wilson for Labour and Ted Heath for Conservatives and the graph isn't accurate enough to determine who was in power at the time of that dip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 11:50 AM

This marks the migration of the Brexit & other UK political thread over into a new shorter (for now) thread to spare the Mudcat server from those times when people load the entire old long thread. And it should be helpful for people on tablets and phones (and please note - when looking at the main Mudcat loading page - click on the 123o small blue number means only the 50 most recent posts load in descending order, not the entire thread).

A few of the most recent posts from that old thread will be moved here for continuity (if this thread can ever be accused of that). Here is the original thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 02:20 PM

There won't be an exact correlation between health-service funding and changes in Government: policy decisions can be timed to take effect in the next parliament. But I knew trouble was ahead many years ago, when I read the observation that bed occupancy was about to go over 90%, and that that correlates with hospital-acquired infections going Whoomph.

.... I'm finding it difficult to read this thread about the NHS being slowly strangled. I suffer from earworms, and I've just come another thread which started "Buddy Can You Spare A Dime" running around in my head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 02:13 AM

Stanron, that is exactly why the title is CHANGES in spending. Which is how I reported it. No lie at all. Now, bear in mind that to keep pace with costs, spending must increase every year. It is a perfectly factual representation of how different governments react to that spending. Just what is this lie that you are talking about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 06:11 AM

One example of a lie is calling a 'smaller increase' a 'cut'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 06:34 AM

Indeed, DtG. Context is all, and in this case includes wage inflation, and the inflationary effects of health insurance in the USA on the price of medicines this side of the puddle. Re the latter, we've seen an exactly similar problem here with vets' bills: if the insurance company pays at the point of use, expensive treatments become financially viable for the vet to offer, and they get into the habit of charging through the nose for everything.

Methinks I've commented before about the difference between efficiency and effectiveness, but (from another context): "Programs which are designed to be efficient are hell for those who have to provide the input or use the output."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 06:37 AM

I'd say "a cut in real terms", Stanron, or "a stealth cut" if I'm in a feisty mood.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 07:24 AM

One example of a lie is calling a 'smaller increase' a 'cut'.

I disagree on that point, Stanron, as an increase in funding that is less than the increase in costs is effectively a cut. But that is beside the point. Where in the linked article does it refer to the smaller increases as cuts? How are the facts portrayed lies? Just where in the article is there "A lovely example of how to lie with statistics."?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 09:01 AM

D the G posted;

Where in the linked article does it refer to the smaller increases as cuts? How are the facts portrayed lies? Just where in the article is there "A lovely example of how to lie with statistics."?

Who said that the lie was in the stats? I was talking about using the stats to support lies like 'Tory cuts to the NHS'. There's plenty of those in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 09:41 AM

Stanron. Your post "A lovely example of how to lie with statistics. That graph, here's the link again..." looks remarkably like you are saying that the graph is a lovely example. If that is not what you meant then apologies for the diversion. Where are the stats used to support lies then? As I said, I would class underfunding as cuts but. if you insist on denyting that we can come up with plenty Tory lies instead. How about https://boris-johnson-lies.com/?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 11:49 AM

“I believe in Brexit, I voted for Brexit, I know that Brexit can deliver, and is already delivering, enormous benefits and opportunities for the country." - Rishi Sunak.

Name those ‘enormous benefits and opportunities’, you greedy, lying moron, name just one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 12:16 PM

Weve taken are cuntry back...

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 04:59 AM

Weve taken are cuntry back...

In a sense, in a sense.

Not sure of the date they have in mind, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 10:49 AM

if starmer really believes this pro-brexit nonsense how long before he starts deselecting, or expelling us remainers? he could take the chance of getting rid of the socialists still hanging around


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 01:51 PM

What strange times we are living in.

Nigel Farage Has Praised Keir Starmer's Speech On Immigration


"Today, Keir Starmer says we must stop the reliance on cheap foreign labour, start training our own people.

“What with that, and saying the House of Lords must be removed in its current shape, Starmer is now repeating the UKIP 2015 manifesto.

“He may not mean any of it, of course, but to think the Labour Party are now to the right of the Conservatives on immigration. That’s where we are, British politics, today.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 02:03 PM

Who, in their right mind, gives a FF what the beer-swilling, chain-smoking man-frog says?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 03:27 PM

So this is Starmer-Tory-not-so-lite so far:

Marginalise the left on the shallowest and most dishonest of pretexts and do your damnedest to prevent their selection in constituencies.

Refuse to consider rejoining the single market/customs union.

Going back on his word on the free movement that he was so keen on during his leadership election campaign.

Going hard on immigration, oh, except when we need veg pickers, and, well, those skilled workers trained in other countries are always welcome, of course...

Rattle on about a "points system." Anyone remember, not too many years ago, how we excoriated the Aussie points system for immigrants for being so blatantly racist?

I'm still a member but I'm seriously considering my position...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 22 - 03:13 AM

Someone close to me has been suspended on the flimsiest of excuses. She is female, disabled, Jewish and, of course, left wing. She had to jump through hoops to be selected as a council candidate for the next locals and was nearly thwarted at the last minute by the right of the local party changing the rules at the last minute but she was selected anyway.

I cancelled my membership when Rebecca Long-Bailey was suspended. Glad I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 22 - 03:52 AM

Staying in the party yet criticising Starmerism at every turn makes me feel like a bloody fifth-columnist. Whilst it doesn't feel anything like the party I joined when Jeremy Corbyn was elected in those days of hope, it still contains lots of us lefties, not many in influential positions of course. Just think: if Starmer ever glanced at this thread, I'd be out on my ear, wouldn't I?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 22 - 04:04 AM

From this morning's Guardian.

Labour event on race issues sidelined leftwing black MPs, claims Abbott

Keir Starmer has been accused of “marginalising” black leftwing Labour MPs after they claimed they were not invited to a crunch event aimed at regaining the confidence of BAME party members.

Diane Abbott described the event as a “PR exercise” and criticised the party for excluding MPs including Clive Lewis, Bell Ribeiro-Addy, Dawn Butler, Florence Eshalomi and Marsha de Cordova.

The event on Saturday, the first of its kind, aimed to ease tensions with black and Asian members after the Forde report found Labour had not done enough to tackle anti-black racism and Islamophobia in the party.


The event did include some black MPs, but they were from the right of the party. A weak man and weak leader trying to bully his way into shaping the party in his own image is certain to end in tears. And watch your back, Diane...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 22 - 10:11 AM

So the net immigration numbers have hit the highest level ever recorded by some margin. There will, of course, be excuses and "reasonable explanations." There always are. I think it's what's called taking back control of our borders, if I remember rightly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 22 - 07:51 AM

Yet more smoke and mirrors from this bunch of liars and cheats

Immigration claims repeatedly being made based on unpublished data


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 05:05 AM

There will be fewer tax planning opportunities to save Capital Gains tax after 06/04/23 - so:

Make sure you utilise your annual tax-free allowance of £12,300 before 05/04/23. Consider selling assets, shares for example, that can be sold within the tax-free allowance.

If your chargeable gains are likely to exceed the £12,300 limit, are there any assets you can sell at a loss to reduce the total gains below the tax-free limit? It is no longer possible to sell and buy back shares to facilitate this planning option: the so-called “bed and breakfast” arrangement.

If you are contemplating the sale of your business make sure you have arranged your affairs such that you can claim Business Asset Disposal Relief. This will potentially allow you to make qualifying gains of up to £1m and only pay CGT at 10%.

CGT payable on chargeable disposals after 5 April 2022 and before 6 April 2023 will be due for payment 31 January 2024. If you delay the disposal until after 5 April 2023, any CGT due will be payable a year later, 31 January 2025. Theoretically, you could delay a disposal by one day (from the 5 April 2023 to the 6 April 2023) and it would extend the amount of time you would have to pay the tax by 12 months.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 05:48 AM

Let's hope all the little UK Mudcat capitalists are listening!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:20 AM

Let's hope lefties with second homes and stocks snd shares are listening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:32 AM

Why would lefties have second homes and stocks and shares? As you know, property is theft! :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:52 AM

So you've been reading EP Thompson - jolly jolly good.


Why would lefties not have second homes and stocks and shares?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:58 AM

I use only those horrid fruity tea bags, because proper tea is theft.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 07:08 AM

It was Proudhon, as any fule no.

'La propriété, c'est le vol!'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 07:36 AM

Obviously our Resident Tory-brainwashed Fule didn't no! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 09:37 AM

"Whose spaceship is this?"
"It's mine."
"No, whose is it really?"
"It's really mine. Look: property is theft, theft is property, I stole it, it's mine."

(For bonus marks, name the persons in question.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 09:40 AM

Is that supposed to be funny?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 03:46 AM

Ford Prefect?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 04:34 AM

My first car was a 1955 Ford Prefect which I "shared" with my Mum - had to check the points and plugs weekly so that I could still get 75mph out of it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 06:39 AM

Our first car, a wedding present, was a white Morris Minor called Mildred (though years before that my Dad had gone through a couple of Ford Anglia three-speed biscuit tins and the first generation Vauxhall Viva - I passed my test in one of those). I spent many a happy weekend removing the Morris Minor cylinder head in order to grind burnt valves. Tappet noise was a very comforting sound after you'd put it all back, I seem to remember. The only special tool needed was a wooden stick with a rubber sucker on the end. There was so much room under the bonnet that you could almost get in and stand next to the engine. I open my Ford Focus bonnet today and I haven't a bloody clue what I'm looking at.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 06:48 AM

I remember our Departmental Land Rover having [snip: seriously long saga] a mismatched power train: the gearbox was expecting an engine with rather higher max revs. It was only just possible, going downhill with no load, to break the speed limit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 06:54 AM

My second car was a Morris Minor, the big end shells would need to be replaced about every 3 months, which I could do in a couple of hours, had to get a reconditioned engine eventually.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 06:57 AM

I had to replace the dashboard clock thingie (with the speedo and fuel gauge) on the Morris. I got one from a scrapyard. Unfortunately, it was a mismatch for our car. The speedo needle went doolally as soon as you drove off so we never knew how fast we were going, and the fuel gauge didn't work, so we never knew how much petrol we had. Bloody good car, that was. Happy days!

We wrinklies could have a lot of fun in a cars-of-yore thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 07:03 AM

On one occasion we drove from London to Exeter with a hole in the radiator. Stones thrown up from the road by the car in front could easily zip through the grille and smash into the delicate fins. We topped it up with cold water every approx 15 miles. No harm done. You try that with a modern car...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 07:19 AM

I am sure we all remember being told before and after the Brexit vote that the UK would be able to forged new trade deals across the globe and be at the forefront of world trade and basically we would live in a land of milk and honey.

Well it would seem that the first major trade deal we negotiated with Japan which we were promised would lead to an increase in trade of £15 billion has proved to be a failure and in fact has led to a decline in trade of some 5%.

As reported in the press today "Minako Morita-Jaeger, a senior research fellow in international trade at Sussex University business school and a policy research fellow of the UK Trade Policy Observatory, said the government had “oversold” the UK-Japan trade agreement and it did not offer significant economic advantages over the previous EU deal. She said the early trade data did not appear encouraging."

Quelle Surprise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 08:05 AM

Brexit - the gift that keeps on giving…

What was it they were predicting about ‘sunlit uplands’?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 08:12 AM

.... And thus we segue seamlessly from old bangers of yore to the England's clapped-out political system and rusted-out economy. At least bangers had trade-in value, or at worst were worth something as scrap metal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 08:13 AM

Apparently all the issues we are having is because remoaners will not get behind brexit. Wonder how that works?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 09:57 AM

Only in the brainwashed minds of those simple-minded enough to fall for the BrexShit Propaganda Campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 10:04 AM

A bit like saying the Holocaust was because Jewish people would not get behind the Nazis' Final Solution??????


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 11:53 AM

SPB - :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 01:25 PM

From The Guardian

Keir Starmer rules out return of free movement between Britain and EU

"Starmer also ruled out a “Swiss-style” deal with the EU, which would allow access to the single market but require more generous immigration rules, after reports the government was considering such an arrangement prompted frantic denials from No 10.

He told the Mail on Sunday: “A Swiss deal simply wouldn’t work for Britain. We’ll have a stronger trading relationship and we’ll reduce red tape for British business – but freedom of movement is a red line for me. It was part of the deal of being in the EU but since we left I’ve been clear it won’t come back under my government.”

He added: “Ripping up the Brexit deal would lead to years more wrangling and arguing, when we should be facing the future.”"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 01:31 PM

apparently starmer has ruled out a return to freedom of movement in europe. well, f*ck you, tory boy. in these days we need a bit of hope. it wouldn't be so be bad if we there was a chance that they were just pretending and the next labour government meant some moves back towards common sense, europe, renationalisation etc but he doesn't seem like the devious type.
but what happened to labour party conference? surely he wouldn't get this past by the party?
i'm always a socialist and still in the party - mostly because of my (cat smith anti-anti-corbyn) mp and angela rayner. and what else is there? but come on labour - throw us something we can be positive about. erasmus? pet passports?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Nov 22 - 04:29 PM

I'm a socialist and I'm still in the party. I completely share your frustration. I think there's a massive danger of Labour losing the next election. Absolutely the wrong person at the helm. I really want to be wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 03:13 PM

Presume whoever wrote this doesn't mind it being pinched!

T'was the night before Christmas, and all through the nation,
There was misery, poverty and great deprivation,
Some stockings were empty, some fridges were bare,
The heating turned off, little money to spare.
Rishi Sunak was cosy, a quaffing champagne,
Cognac and Port so he’s feeling no pain,
Stuffing his chops on goose flesh and gammon,
Caviar, Stilton and the finest smoked salmon.
The homeless are shivering in cardboard containers,
Ex-Servicemen, youngsters, both Leave and Remainers,
The nurses and doctors all still searching for beds,
With a shortage of staff, of money and meds.
The Moggs singing carols with moguls and bankers,
Hedge funders, financiers and various wankers
,
Admiring his baubles and pulling his crackers,
Rejoicing that he's got us all by the knackers.
Your Gran's in the corridor, still on the trolley
While the Chancellor's counting the last of his lolly,
And Grandad’s in pieces, stemming his tears,
Though they’ve paid their dues these past sixty years
But hey, Goves on the sherry and is quite off his tits,
While his missus is battered and doing the splits,
And Drunken Smith is a singing along with the Pogues,
With the rest of the mob and a few Russian rogues.
And the kids who are dreaming of gifts in the morning,
Won’t get them- their benefits were stopped without warning,
While those whose dosh is in off-shore accounts,
Will be rubbing their hands as the grand total mounts.
And the Waspi woman alone in her kitchen,
Has long given up on Dancer and Blitzen,
She was robbed of her pension, they don’t give a shite,
That she’s freezing and hungry on Christmas Eve night.
And now, here’s the end of this so festive story
Dont forget, STOP VOTING TORY.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 04:33 PM

From The Guardian

Thurrock council admits disastrous investments caused £500m deficit

Another council who borrowed money when rates were low and then lost it in poor investments. Governments, both national and local, are not good at spending public money.

With the rise in interest rates there will probably be more councils running into problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 04:47 PM

thurrock council are feckin winkers


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 06:01 PM

https://www.croydonconservatives.com/news/revealed-true-scale-croydon-labours-toxic-financial-mismanagement


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 06:19 PM

Four councils, Croydon, Slough, Northamptonshire and Thurrock have gone insolvent in recent months.

2 Labour controlled and 2 Tory controlled.

I wonder who was doing their accounts. I think Croydon & Thurrock each have debts of over £ 1.5 billion. Nothing like wasting other peoples money.

The value of your investment might go down as well as up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 22 - 05:07 AM

when the first dartford toll tunnel was built, the rate payers of essx and kent had to pay extra to pay for the building of the tunnel in theory the tunnel belonged to to essex and kent rate payers,
somehow the tunnel was privatised .
i have a recollection that mrs thatchers husband was a director of a firm that got the contract to build the bridge and or the second tunnel, the toll tunnel is now owned by a private company, even though the first tunnel was partly financed by the rate payers of thurrock.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 22 - 12:40 PM

w hat happens to councils that get in to this kind of debt , and how does it happen, do they not have auditors


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 22 - 08:29 PM

Mick Lynch made absolute mincemeat of Mischal Husain in Today a couple of mornings ago. Poor Mishal, a far better newsreader and reporter than she is an interviewer. But Mick was spot on. He simply wasn't going to accept the blatant anti-union establishment stance of the BBC and he tore right through it. Brilliant.

Today, we had the estimable Emma Barnett on Womans' Hour ripping into the horrendous, smirking, smug, shitty, disgraceful Tory lying scumbag who is Helen Whately over the nurses' strike. What a bloody treat that was. There isn't much to celebrate these days, but these two buggers are at least fighting the good fight ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 22 - 08:31 PM

Ach, apostrophe hell - should have gone to Barnard Castle...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 04:09 AM

"w hat happens to councils that get in to this kind of debt , and how does it happen, do they not have auditors"

The dire financial mismanagement by the extremely corrupt labour Croydon council will take years to rectify.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 06:30 AM

I shall repeat Rain Dog's post of 29 Nov

Four councils, Croydon, Slough, Northamptonshire and Thurrock have gone insolvent in recent months.

2 Labour controlled and 2 Tory controlled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 01:09 PM

Thurrock has debts of 50 million


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 06:12 PM

I wish all selfish and greedy striking workers a most miserable Christmas and a thoroughly bad New Year!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 06:25 PM

I'm sure that you and your good ladies benefits will still come through though Bonzo.............


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 22 - 06:39 PM

I wish all selfish and greedy bankers, corrupt lady peers (£29 million and counting), corrupt recipients of dodgy PPI deals, corrupt politicians who engineered those deals, parasitic non-doms and other off-shorers a most miserable Christmas and a thoroughly bad New Year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 02:05 AM

I wonder if any of those whinging that unions are ruining the Christmas holidays realise that they only have Christmas holidays because of the unions. Or that in any dispute, there are two sides. Or that they are being led by the nose by billionaire press barons.

Then I remember how gullible, greedy or uncaring some people are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 05:46 AM

And as for lynch, what a despicable commie crack he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 06:21 AM

The reporting narrative in the current industrial disputes is set by the Mail/Telegraph axis. Keywords, to be included bigly in every report, are "disruption," "strike," "chaos," picket line," "inconvenience," "delay," "union bosses/barons" (add your own). You might just hear that it's a dispute about "pay and conditions." What you'll have to dig and delve for yourself are the exact reasons for desperate people being forced to lay down their tools. What you won't hear too much of is the 12-year suppression of pay and the rapidly deteriorating working and living conditions of many of the striking workers in a time of high inflation. You won't read about the privations of those withdrawing their labour, the only weapon they have, as they lose hundreds of pounds a week in pay. But you will hear plenty of platitudes and downright lies from ministers about how the paltry offers on the table are "fair and reasonable" which were decided by "independent" pay review bodies (the biggest lie of all). And then, of course, the downright lie that pay settlements above the parsimony currently on the table will "fuel inflation," or "embed inflation in the economy." Well there's already inflation in the economy that has nothing to do with pay settlements, and giving nurses, carers, ambulance drivers and teachers a decent pay rise can't possibly fuel inflation.   You'll hear ministers telling us that they can't intervene in negotiations when, every time they open their mouths, they are intervening. You'll hear some minister or other who's been wheeled out to tell us that the nurses' 19.2% pay demand is "unreasonable and unaffordable," which can't be negotiated, even though we all know that that is merely an opening bargaining gambit and not an all-or-nothing stance. We all know that unions almost always ask for more than they eventually settle for. The government wants us to think that the unions are our enemies-within and that the NHS can't be fit for purpose and should be broken up. They lie to us about the "investment" they've put in (which has been paltry in historical terms for over a decade). For many people who don't spend hours a day studying the political situation, gleaning what they know from the headlines or the first five minutes of the news, it's easy to dismiss them as gullible. The government controls the narrative that invites us to be gullible and most of the media connive in that. We need a damn sight more Mick Lynches articulately and confidently giving us the real, unadorned truth about how we are being manipulated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 07:52 AM

Verbal diarrhoea


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 08:08 AM

Maybe, but we can't stop you from posting it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 10:20 AM

”I wish all selfish and greedy striking workers a most miserable Christmas and a thoroughly bad New Year!”
“And as for lynch, what a despicable commie crack he is.”


Stop talking through your arse Bonz, your breath smells.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 10:57 AM

Minor point: however much the Rabid Right bang on about privatising everything (when they mean *pirate*ising, but that's a separate rant), having nationalised industries actually *benefits* them on average. This is based on the observation that there's only one thing a trade-union official hates more than the management, and that's an official of a rival trade union.

Consider:

Suppose the country has five nationalised industries (for suitably general values of five).

Year 1: the nurses (say) get a pay rise above the national average *for that year*. The Govt says to the train drivers etc: We can't afford to give you a pay rise this year because *nurses* .... and inter-union rivalry does the rest.

Year 2: it's the train drivers' turn to get an above-average pay rise ....

At the end of Year 5, all five industries have had one-off pay rises, each of which has been portrayed at the time as inflation-bustingly exorbitant generous, and all of which average out over five years as somewhat less than five yearsworth of inflation.

This of course all breaks down, as we are seeing now in the UK, if there's an extended imposition of austerity: none of the industries in question get a pay rise for long enough that union members' dislike of the Govt overcomes their distaste of other unions.

Let there be flames.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 11:11 AM

Could it be that people who work beyond the statutory age of retirement and well into their 70's are selfish and greedy depriving other younger, needy people of gainful employment


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 12:08 PM

Not at all, they know nothing and are generally stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 04:02 PM

In my case, Raggy, it was simple absentmindedness: I clean forgot I was supposed to retire, until Herself towed me away for the Caribbean cruise that was supposed to celebrate my retirement. It did pad out my pension a tad, which will be selflessly passed on to the next generation once I date-expire completely and/or save them paying for a rest home for me in the meantime.

More generally, older workers aren't selfish, just more expensive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 04:14 PM

That argument about older employees keeping jobs away from younger people looking for jobs is a false dilemma (logical fallacy) - suggesting that older employees are taking from other unknown employees when in fact it appears that keeping older people in the work force longer is one way to help counter the problems of a lower birth rate (bringing new younger employees along) and keeping them pulling their own weight longer as far as paying into social services pools that they draw from more heavily than younger people (here in the US those are typically social security and medicare).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 04:50 PM

Could it be that people who work beyond the statutory age of retirement and well into their 70's are selfish and greedy depriving other younger, needy people of gainful employment

The same sort of argument used to be used to keep women in their place, at home, instead stealing jobs from men.

I chose to take early retirement because that is what suited me but, if others feel they have something to offer, they have every right to pursue those goals. Growing old shouldn't turn people into second-class citizens.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 22 - 05:35 PM

Absolutely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 03:23 AM

in my opinion, using automation to replace people so private rail companies can make an increased profit and then the state has to provide unemployment money, is a foolish capitalist policy.
When i use rail,particularly late at night i want someone at the ticket office for security and because as a customer i want to make enquiries and use cash or have the choice of cash or card, it is called customer service.
replacing people with machines is treating me as a second class citizen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 03:59 AM

99...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 04:25 AM

"in my opinion, using automation to replace people so private rail companies can make an increased profit and then the state has to provide unemployment money, is a foolish capitalist policy."

East Croydon has had both ticket machines and a very efficient ticket office for with 6 windows for many years.

Why can't you buy your rail tickets on line?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 05:00 AM

Perhaps, customers are entitled to choice, I want the choice.why should i buy everything on line, what about the people who cannot afford or do not have computers
keep up to date with info bonz, you make statements criticising rail workers for going on strike, but do not appear to be informed about the reasons for striking[ which is not just about pay
East Croydon, might have had six windows that does not mean the private rail companies want to maintain them, and keep them all
you seem uninformed about the rail strike Bonzo, but why should i be surprised at that?I want security on trains a guard and a driver
I want to travel in security and safety on the platforms and on the trains
"Network Rail will start the formal process to lay off up to 1,800 staff at the end of the month, it has told the RMt" quote guardian
I do not think it a good idea that a private company, should lay off 1800 staff, because the state will then have to pay unemployment money, a much better idea is to renationalise the railways


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 05:06 AM

"a much better idea is to renationalise the railways"

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 08:56 AM

The railways are peactically nationalised already Bonzo. The government takes the ticket revenue and then pays the train companies to run the trains, badly in some cases. Some of those train companies then pass on some of that revenue to their shareholders. Does not mske a lot of sense however you look at it.

Third party companies selling tickets just means less revenue for the government or the taxpayer. Again, it does not make a lot of sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 09:18 AM

Shareholders invest and expect a return in the form of dividends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 10:13 AM

Shareholders - investors - skimming the profit (aka working capital) from an otherwise viable business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 10:17 AM

As I said, Shareholders invest and expect a return in the form of dividends, quite normal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 10:45 AM

Paying dividends comes after ensuring the business has enough capital to run efficiently. Remember shares can go down as well as up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 11:24 AM

It used to be illegal in the US for companies to do the "share buyback" that is so popular now. It needs to be illegal again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 12:04 PM

Why?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 01:01 PM

why not


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 01:42 PM

Because it means the management is not investing the proceeds in the employees and the operation, they're buying stocks back to increase their own compensation. This from the Communication Workers of America:
Stock buybacks are when companies buy back their own stock from shareholders on the open market rather than investing in workers or equipment. When a share of stock is bought back, the company reduces the number of shares left in the market, which raises the price of remaining shares. Company executives have every incentive to buy back stocks, since most of their compensation derives from stock and a higher stock price makes them personally richer.

It hasn’t always been this way. Until 1982, buybacks were considered a form of market manipulation, but a Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) ruling that year gave companies free reign to buy back stocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 01:53 PM

Which in the UK has to be properly disclosed in the accounts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 03:09 PM

SRS: Stock buybacks are when companies buy back their own stock from shareholders on the open market rather than investing in workers or equipment. When a share of stock is bought back, the company reduces the number of shares left in the market, which raises the price of remaining shares. Company executives have every incentive to buy back stocks, since most of their compensation derives from stock and a higher stock price makes them personally richer.

Consider the source. Communication workers of America appears to be a trade union (In effect, if not in name).
Their logic however fails in making the assumption that When a share of stock is bought back, the company reduces the number of shares left in the market, which raises the price of remaining shares.
The logical fallacy here is that the value of the company does not remain the same (to be allocated between all shareholders). The money used to buy-back the shares (on the open market) will only buy those shares if there is no market for them at a higher price. But the cost of those shares bought back reduces the company's assets by the value of those shares. This should not cause a re-evaluation of the remaining shares unless the company has spotted that the shares are undervalued, and is buying for this reason.

If anything company buy-backs show that the company has confidence in its own future, unlike when directors start selling their personal holdings when they can see the company is in difficulty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Dec 22 - 03:15 PM

I chose them because of the source, Nigel. They are directly impacted by the bad behavior of their company management. They understand why stock buybacks are immoral and should be illegal.

Your rendering of the situation is not only wrong, it's crazy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 04:31 AM

The most recent share buyback announced by BP (BP) of $3.5bn has resulted in the FTSE100 (UK100) members reaching the largest ever aggregate annual cash pay-out in history. In 2022, the members are forecasted to pay out £46.9bn in share buybacks, almost double that seen last year. The top three sectors were energy, financial and consumer staples. BP (BP) and Shell (RDS) were the top two companies, paying out more than the seven runner ups combined.

Excellent news for shareholders, and the treasury also benefits from any Capital Gains Tax payable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 05:14 AM

And he calls the unions greedy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 11:19 AM

and the treasury also benefits from any Capital Gains Tax payable.quote hilarous most of them employ accountants to show them how to avoid paying tax


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 11:28 AM

useless useless lefty idiots.

The government has delayed the introduction of MTD for income tax for landlords and self employed by two years until 2026!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 12:01 PM

Can you tell us what you think without using all of the name calling and slurs, Bonzo? Asking for a friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 02:10 PM

Government ministers have been wheeled out today to tell us on the radio and telly that they won't discuss pay for nurses and ambulance drivers, both of whom are striking on various days, and that the paltry pay offers on the table (about a quarter of inflation, the numbers attached to which are a blatant lie in any case), made by "independent" pay review bodies (independent my arse - they have to abide by the remit of the government) are "fair and reasonable." All that after twelve years of no pay rises or hardly any pay rises.

It's perfectly clear that the Sunak government wants people to die so that we'll come to hate the NHS. It won't work, and what's even more galling is that he's by far the richest prime minister we've ever had, with a non-dom wife who has about £800 million of unearned wealth, thanks to her dad. These people haven't got a bloody clue about ordinary people's struggles. Not a clue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 04:01 PM

Very true, they do not appear to understand the consumer society either, how can people buy goods and boost the economy if they do not have sufficient money to do so, it is not even efficient capitalism,


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 07:46 PM

Do note that no Tory minister is allowed to say "pay review bodies." They have all been briefed to say "independent pay review bodies." The lie of the century. Why, one such Tory apparatchik had to correct himself this morning on the Today programme when he accidentally omitted the word "independent."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Dec 22 - 11:46 PM

A real-world, personal friend of mine (a damn fine musician, as it happens) wrote the following elsewhere recently. I think he hits the nail fair and square on the head…

”Getting really fed up with the Gov line that the Pay Review Body is INDEPENDENT. It is not. It works within constraints set by the Gov. It’s Terms of Reference are clear:

“In reaching its recommendations, the Review Body is to have regard to the following considerations:

* the need to recruit, retain and motivate suitably able and qualified staff;

* regional/local variations in labour markets and their effects on the recruitment and retention

* THE FUNDS AVAILABLE TO THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT as set out in the Government’s Departmental Expenditure Limits;

*the Government’s inflation target;”

In other words, the Pay Review Body can only recommend what the Gov says it can afford. And - WHY IS THE BBC NOT REPORTING THIS?”


What he doesn’t mention, but is worth bearing very much in mind, is that the members of the ‘Independent’ Pay Review Body are appointed by the government - not much chance of ‘independence’ there!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 03:46 AM

yes indeed, and of course on examination the BBC is not independent either


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 05:37 AM

The Beeb isn't so much not-independent as just plain scared: they know which side their licence fee is buttered on. Back in the Long Ago when Labour was in power, istr the Beeb getting dumped on for being overly left-leaning .... but methinks that was by the right-wing press. Much depends on who does the examining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 09:45 AM

Who are the BBC board members?
Image result for bbc board of governors 2022
Members

    Richard SharpChairman.
    Tim DavieDirector-General.
    Shumeet BanerjiNon-executive Director.
    Damon BuffiniDeputy Chair; Chair, BBC Commercial Board.
    Elan Closs StephensNon-executive director; Member for Wales.
    Shirley GarroodNon-executive Director.
    Robbie GibbNon-executive director; Member for England.Who are the top people at the BBC?
Executive Committee

    Tim DavieDirector-General.
    Kerris BrightChief Customer Officer.
    Tom FussellCEO, BBC Studios.
    Charlotte MooreChief Content Officer.
    Gautam RangarajanGroup Director of Strategy and Performance.
    Rhodri Talfan DaviesDirector, Nations.
    Leigh TavazivaChief Operating Officer.
Might i suggest you check out their political back grounds


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 12:21 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWnfW_WSons
you may or may not agree , but aboveis an argument as to why the bbc is not impartial


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 04:40 PM

Further horrors have emerged in Croydon Council’s finances as the true picture of Labour’s toxic legacy became clear in a recent “opening the books” exercise.

In addition to doubling the Council’s debt to a staggering £1.6 billion - which costs around £50 million a year to service - it has now emerged that:

Labour overestimated parking income by £10 million per year, leaving an ongoing black hole in the finances
Labour sold £73 million of council property and quickly spent the money. However, they got the accounting wrong and now £9 million must be repaid
Labour claimed that the refurbishment of Fairfield Halls would come at zero cost to the taxpayer. However, it was so badly managed that the project has cost the taxpayer £70 million – and the roof still leaks
Substantial losses have now been crystallised in Labour’s Brick by Brick developer, into which they pumped £200 million of our money
Labour made numerous accounting and spending errors over time that have now come to light and need to be paid for

As a result of these historic issues, the Council has been forced to issue a Section 114 Notice, meaning that it will be impossible to set a balanced budget next year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Dec 22 - 06:03 PM

I did intend to say something about generals vs poor bloody infantry at the BBC, but the conversation appears to have moved on, so I'll leave it at that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 03:26 AM

Bonzo, a drop in the ocean compared to Conservative controlled Thurrock50 billion in debt.
But the real point is that what ever the party in control, both councils have been very irresponsible


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 04:15 AM

Rattling on repeatedly about Croydon in a UK politics thread may not be completely off-topic, but surely it's a bit parish-pump when set alongside the fact that your party managed to piss £30 billon of our money up the wall in a few short days...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 04:47 AM

Date: 16 Dec 22 - 01:09 PM

Thurrock has debts of 50 million

---- " ----

Date: 22 Dec 22 - 03:26 AM

Bonzo, a drop in the ocean compared to Conservative controlled Thurrock50 billion in debt.



The actual debt lies in between, at just under 500 million, which is outrageous but less than third of Croyden's.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 05:19 AM

To be fair to Bonzo, (though not sure why I should be fair), Croydon has been leading the way. Other councils have followed and I am sure some more will follow in the next few months.

Thurrock have debts of £ 1.5 billion, largely borrowed from the government and other councils. Servicing that debt is costing a lot of money, which has resulted in a deficit of £ 500 million this year.

From The Guardian this week.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/19/thurrock-latest-council-declare-effective-bankruptcy


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 05:24 AM

Government intervention into Thurrock Council.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 05:35 AM

There are other councils of all political persuasions struggling to make ends meet and many will fail. The underlying cause is the mismanagement of the economy by the bunch of lying, cheating and corrupt rogues currently in power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 08:15 AM

thurrock always brings me a smile. i watched Bath City v Thurrock some years ago. maybe 20 thurrock fans sang - 'it's Th-U-U-rock! Th-U-rock FC - are by far the greatest team the world has ever seen!' Yes, I did meet Ken on the terrace, I wanted to compliment him on the scene in Land and Freedom where the Spanish peasant farmers are discussing whether to collectivise their land. Croydon - on the other hand - has no fond memories for me at all


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 12:45 PM

An individual has won a First Tier Tribunal (FTT) appeal against a demand from HMRC over disputed stamp duty land tax (SDLT) payments

The appellant, Gary Withers, appealed against a closure noticed issued by HMRC, which increased the SDLT due from £114,500 to £212,500.

The notice was issued to Withers over an enquiry into his SDLT return for the acquisition on 31 July 2019 of a house and land located at the property known as Lake Farm, in Kent.

The case concerned whether a home with adjoining grazing and woodland could attract commercial rates of SDLT tax instead of residential rates.

HMRC allowed the appellant’s claim for multiple dwellings relief (MDR) but concluded that the acquisition was of ‘wholly residential property’ and calculated the increased amount of SDLT under s55 of the Finance Act 2003 (FA 2003).

FA 2003 establishes that SDLT tax is chargeable when the relevant land ‘consists entirely’ of residential property.

In respect of the land, HMRC contended that it was entirely appropriate for such a large rural property to include ‘extensive gardens or grounds’ and was eligible as residential property for SDLT purposes.

The appellant argued that the property included non-residential property and, therefore, should have been classed as mixed-use.

Lake Farm was a barn conversion and was advertised as sitting in landscaped gardens. The fields and woodlands were mentioned separately.

Two months before completion, the appellant had signed an agreement with a farmer which gave him permission to graze sheep on 20 acres and to cut hay on a further five acres. This agreement lasted for one year, in return for £800.

The same farmer had grazed sheep at the property on an informal basis continuously for many years. In addition, another part of the property was used as part of a Woodland Trust scheme, a conservation charity.

On 31 July 2019, Withers completed the transaction purchasing the property for £2.5m. On the same date, HMRC received an SDLT return from the appellant.

The property was classified as ‘mixed-use’ on the basis that its land was used for agricultural purposes and the amount of tax self-assessed was £114,500.

On 20 January 2021, HMRC wrote to the appellant citing that the acquisition of the property should have been classed as residential due to the fact that the appellant owned additional properties at the time of its purchase.

In response, the appellant’s agent stated that he owned their previous main residence upon purchasing the property but had sold this in October 2020. They argued that it was pointless for him to pay higher rates on additional dwellings (HRAD).

On 14 April 2021, HMRC issued the closure notice under s10 FA 2003 increasing the SDLT due to £212,500, a difference of £98,000 to the amount self-assessed.

The tax authority stated that as the appellant owned multiple dwellings at the date of the purchase, HRAD was applicable.

Withers argued that the land surrounding Lake Farm had been used for a separate purpose and in a commercial sense, as it had been grazed by a farmer continuously for 20 years.

He also stated that many in the farming community struggled to make a living and that it would be ‘irresponsible’ to charge high rent to a farmer for revenue which would be immaterial to his own income.

Judge Ruhven Gemmell WS said: ‘In respect of HMRC’s submission relating to the ‘use of land’ the tribunal does not accept their submission that it is sufficient that the adjacent land is available to Withers to use as he wishes. The grazing agreement does contain restrictions on his use of the land as set out in his submissions.

‘The tribunal, following a balanced assessment of all the facts, considers that the land surrounding Lake Farm to the extent that it is occupied for grazing and by the Woodland Trust does not constitute gardens or grounds, and therefore, should not be treated as residential property for the purposes of SDLT.’

Accordingly, the appeal was allowed.

Sean Randall, partner at Blick Rothenberg, said: ‘For years taxpayers have argued that where they have a property in the country that has grazing and woodland that any SDLT should be levied on a commercial basis instead of a residential basis.

‘This has led to litigation and HMRC had, until this case, an unblemished record in challenging ‘mixed-use’ appeals. This is the first case where the evidence of separate non-residential use has been sufficient.

‘It is also a good example of the need to consider all the circumstance and to be careful of relying on HMRC’s guidance.’


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 01:37 PM

Gosh, Bonzo, I'd bet that you could write one of those books that once you put it down you can't pick it up again...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 01:51 PM

Lol :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 22 - 04:36 PM

Bonzo reminds me Stylistically of Patrick o Brian.
Bonzo is of course creating a Red Herring.or should it be a deep blue Herring


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 03:41 AM

I must be a bit weird because I found the story quite interesting. Particularly the fact that it it the first such case that HMRC has lost. What bonzo has failed to tell us though is that it is not his own work. It looks like a cut and paste from that thrilling publication "Accountancy Daily" :-)

Bad form to pinch someone else's work and not credit them bonzo old chap. Mind you, it is typically Tory...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 03:52 AM

I'm sorry, I didn't "fail" to do anything.

It came from Croner i, who provide daily tax updates. I'm always glad to read about cases lost by HMRC, and tax saved by a taxpayer!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 05:04 AM

You did bonzo. You failed to credit the source. I know your hero Bozzer tries to gaslight everyone but there is really no need to emulate him

But, yes, in cases of genuine overtaxing it is good to see HMRC proved wrong. It is a pity that they don't put their efforts into closing the loopholes that allow the mega corporations to avoid paying what they should


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 05:11 AM

Tax legislation is what it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 05:14 AM

Then it needs changing. Nothing is written on tablets of stone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 07:11 AM

We will miss the old Queen's speech, but look forward to the King's speech!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 07:18 AM

"Tax legislation is what it is."

We just need the tax enforcement to go with it. Not much point in the Tories raising taxes if they cannot be bothered to collect them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 07:32 AM

"We just need the tax enforcement to go with it. Not much point in the Tories raising taxes if they cannot be bothered to collect them."

That's what HMRC is for, in case you didn't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 07:52 AM

HMRC work to rules set by the government so it is the government that need to ensure that the rules are fit for purpose. Part of the EU shake up of taxation rules mooted before 2016 was to close the tax loopholes that resulted in the mega rich being able to stash their earnings where HMRC could not get at them. If you have any doubt as to that is why those in power conned people into voting to leave the EU then you need to work on your comprehension skills.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 08:22 AM

'That's what HMRC is for, in case you didn't know.'

I did know that Bonzo.

It is the government who decide on the resources available to HMRC, in case you didn't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 10:16 AM

And your point is???????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 12:17 PM

It's the government who decide on the resources available to "independent" pay review bodies.

Lie no 1: the pay review bodies are independent

Lie no 2: we have to restrict the pay of public sector workers in order to keep inflation down

Watch the news tonight and you'll hear both these lies being blatantly trotted out by Fishi Sunak and/or his lackeys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 02:08 PM

I think Richie Sunak could become a good appellation :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 05:37 PM

People who cross the channel from France are not genuine asylum seekers and we must send them back or to a third country.

With an energy crisis and war in Ukraine, taxpayers money cannot be spent on supporting thousands of migrants who have come to this country illegally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Dec 22 - 06:11 PM

You must be feeling tired Bonzo. Perhaps you need a lie down?

Might cause a bit of a problem if you sent everyone who crossed the channel back to a third country. Certainly would put an end to any future imports carried by trucks. Might help the balance of payments though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 02:52 AM

Everyone of Viking descent must go back to Scandinavia

Everyone of Norman descent must go back to France

If your ancestors entered the country illegally you do not belong here!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 02:53 AM

Bonzo would you send them to Ukraine? What has caused the energy crisis Bonzo, was it the fault of the asylum seekers, would you send all stray dogs back to a third country?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 03:01 AM

Bonzo what would be the cost TO TAX PAYERS of sending them back to a third country. , would it not be cheaper to send them to croydon CROYDON


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Monique
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 03:22 AM

Please note that Norman meant "North man" and that they were Vikings (Cf. The French History Podcast from Ep.72 and he's not finish yet). If we must all go back to where we started from, I wonder if Africa will cope with 8 billion people and some might be too white for their taste.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 04:10 AM

You forgot to mention Yorkshiremen, Dave. Send 'em all 'ome then blow up th' M25, I say!

(It would take a Braverman than me to fix it...See what I did there?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 04:29 AM

It is true, Monique. Thank you :-D

Steve - I'm all for widening the Watford gap and floating the part south east of it elsewhere :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 11:31 AM

Passengers have said they wish the Army could man the borders permanently after airports ran smoothly on Friday in an “embarrassing” blow to striking Border Force workers.

The Government had been braced for disruption as a week-long strike by 1,000 passport staff at six airports began.

Families with young children, who cannot use electronic gates, were expected to bear the brunt of delays at border control, but there was no widespread disruption as travellers arrived home.

Military personnel and civil servants filled in for Border Force at major airports, including Gatwick and Heathrow, with passengers who had expected “carnage” suggesting border checks were quicker than normal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 11:35 AM

The Taliban government on Saturday ordered all foreign and domestic non-governmental groups in Afghanistan to suspend employing women, allegedly because some female employees didn’t wear the Islamic headscarf correctly. The ban was the latest restrictive move by Afghanistan’s new rulers against women’s rights and freedoms.

The order came in a letter from Economy Minister Qari Din Mohammed Hanif, which said that any NGO found not complying with the order will have their operating license revoked in Afghanistan. The letter’s content was confirmed to The Associated Press by the ministry’s spokesman, Abdul Rahman Habib.

The ministry said it had received “serious complaints” about female staff working for NGOs not wearing the “correct” headscarf, or hijab. It was not immediately clear if the order applies to all women or only Afghan women working at the NGOs.

They are as bonkers as trans loving starmer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 12:16 PM

When it comes to bedding, homeowners are probably conscious about cleaning their bed sheets and pillowcases, but the same cannot always be said about their pillows. As pillows can house a mixture of dust mites, bacteria, sweat and so much more, it's important to make sure they receive just as much attention as anything else on beds. To ensure your pillows are fresh, clean and yellow-stain free, Karl Huckerby is a cleaning expert from Spare and Square spoke exclusively to Express.co.uk to share his top pillow cleaning tips.

He said: "Pillows can get dirty easily as they collect the likes of dead skin, sweat, forgotten makeup and other bacteria as we sleep on them. This means they need to be cleaned thoroughly often, to avoid the likes of yellow stains becoming a permanent feature.

If you notice a stain on your pillow, the first thing you need to do is check your pillow's care label, so you know how to wash it without damaging it. Although the majority of pillows can be cleaned in the washing machine, the likes of feather pillows and memory-foam often need to be hand washed instead."

Well, if bonzo can C&P random nonsense without crediting the source, I'm sure we all can.

As to "bonkers as trans loving starmer". I guess that just speaks volumes about his mental capacity :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 02:07 PM

Allowing yourself to be brainwashed by Extreme-Right propaganda, and indulging in proliferating it around the internet without a shred of evidence, is as ‘bonkers’ as it gets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 22 - 05:12 PM

Backwoodsman , good post


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Dec 22 - 10:33 AM

An excellent first Christmas message to the nation and the Commonwealth from King Charles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Dec 22 - 11:23 AM

I thought so too bonzo. I hope Richie takes notice that even Charlie says that the nurses should be appreciated:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Dec 22 - 11:25 AM

True


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 22 - 01:52 PM

Michael Walkers opinion on why king charles is not fit to reign
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qElmEr8RrLg


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Dec 22 - 05:29 PM

Absolute rubbish


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 22 - 11:26 AM

Bonzo if it rubbish, as you say it is, perhaps you can prove that is rubbish rather than just making a remark of no consequence


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 04:44 AM

Just 33 days left to file your 2022 tax return!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 03:47 PM

SAVE THE BRITS https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/18/british-people-poorer-ifs-uk-autumn-statement

Whales are saved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 06:27 PM

Well done Sir Brian May!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 22 - 06:59 PM

I was at university with Sir Brian, though neither of us knew it :-( Unfortunately, we were also there with Piers Corbyn. Grr.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 03:44 AM

Could have been worse - Piers Morgan!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:10 AM

Well I once had dinner with Thora Hird and I once sat next to Esther Rantzen all afternoon at Make Poverty History at the Eden Project. But Mrs Steve's best friend once had a chat with Buzz Aldrin so I'm shutting up about this now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 22 - 06:46 AM

Thora Hird? Is that the old lady that defrosts cattle?

I once spoke to Audrey Roberts (or Nadia Popov if you prefer) in Sainsbury's, Salford. The bloke who tried to kill Rita was with her as well but he didn't say owt. Mind you, he was run over by a tram in Blackpool...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 06:35 PM

Are we name dropping for New Year?

Ok, My siblings and I went to St Philomena's Primary School, later renamed Sacred Heart. In my sister's class was Paul Rodgers, who was the lead singer for Free, Bad Company and other bands.

In my brother's was Chris Rea.

Mark Rea was in mine, so no claim to fame by association there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 23 - 06:57 PM

I was at school with Danny Boyle (Thornleigh College in Bolton), though he was in the first year when I was in the sixth form. He also went to the same primary school as me, St Mary's in Radcliffe. I wonder if I ever bullied him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 02:49 AM

I read online this morning that quite a large proportion of British people are keen to have a referendum about rejoining the EU. I'm not sure how I feel about this, but I'm tending to lean towards voting to rejoin Europe. Anyone else have mixed feelings?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 03:39 AM

Although rejoining would be best all round, it would be far too divisive. Would they have us anyway?

I think the best we can hope for is some sort of association with the EU that gives us at least some of the benefits


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 04:01 AM

i think the first thing is to rejoin the common market to improve the trading situation. one ironic occurence of brexit has been the increase of more bureaucracy


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:15 AM

I never wanted to leave in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:44 AM

We won't be rejoining. We have a pig-headed government and an equally pig-headed leader of the opposition. We have the EU, rightly, digging in. The US has no interest in signing a spiffin' trade deal with us and never did have, along with many others. We are the only member of the G7 with an economy smaller now than it was pre-pandemic. The Northern Ireland "protocol" is still all over the place, as we knew it would be, and is seriously affecting the people there. And hands up all those who think we've managed to "control our borders" (just look at the record-busting net immigration stats, and all this shower can come up with is an aeroplane to Rwanda that no-one has got on yet).

Backwoodsman came across several years ago as a bit mean when he said that those who voted leave after swallowing the lies that all sensible people recognised as lies were gullible and feeble-minded. Well he was dead right. if you voted leave you are collectively responsible for this mess and should hang your head in shame. We did try to tell you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 05:54 AM

is it not in all parties concerned to have some sort of trade deal?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 06:14 AM

"is it not in all parties concerned to have some sort of trade deal?"

Yes, but this is a classic - perhaps the classic - problem in game theory. It is in everyone's interest, but it is in each participants interests to hold out a little longer than the others because that will give them a better deal.

There are many versions of this, but the simplest is 'Chicken'. You can win everything. Or you can lose by backing down. But given two headstrong participants you crash into each other and both get hurt. However, even then, if one of you is in an Austin 7 and the other in T-10 tank ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 06:31 AM

in response to Steve Shaws post
The person responsible for the situation was a Conservative leader called dodgy dave Cameron, then we have a so called "democratic" system which allows one side to spend more on its campaign than the other


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 06:37 AM

Mutual trade deals are great when each side has substantial things to offer the other. The US wouldn't exactly be in floods of tears if we weren't here to trade at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 06:48 AM

of course some decades ago industry that had been in the uk was moved by multi nationals to the third world or china where working conditions and environmental conditions were not unionised. however What are the top 10 UK exports?

    Precious metals production – £22.8 billion. ...
    Aircraft parts – £17.3 billion. ...
    Motor vehicles – £14.6 billion. ...
    Pharmaceuticals – £13.2 billion. ...
    Refined petroleum – £8.8 billion. ...
    Natural gas and crude petroleum – £7.4 billion. ...
    Jewellery – £5.5 billion. ...
    Clothing – £4.5 billion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 07:20 AM

Interesting figures Sandman, just where did you get them, what are the figures for banking, insurance and financial markets?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 07:42 AM

i fdund them by googling uk exports , i am assuming they are correct ,perhaps they are not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Jan 23 - 07:50 AM

and this
According to the Office for National Statistics, UK exports in March 2022 grew across every industry. Total export of goods increased by 2.1% equating to an extra £0.6 billion in revenue. Exports to non-EU countries increased by 2.6% (£0.4 billion). While exports to the EU increased by 1.7% (£0.3 billion). These figures do not include the export of precious metals and non-monetary gold.

At AGI, we can arrange for the safe export of all types of goods and cargo. We can provide professional road, sea, and air freight services from the UK to the EU and across the world. Popular UK export industries vary year on year. There are, however, certain exported products for which the UK is world-renowned. So, what are the top 10 UK exports in 2022? Let’s take a closer look.
1. Precious metals production – £22.8 billion

The UK’s precious metals industry is involved in refining precious metals such as gold, silver, and platinum. Once refined the metals are used in a variety of applications including motor vehicle manufacturing, jewellery manufacturing, and computer and peripheral equipment manufacturing.

The precious metal production industry also produces precious metal alloys and metal foil laminates.
2. Aircraft parts – £17.3 billion

UK exports of aircraft parts includes complete aircraft and spacecraft, propulsion units, engines, and other related equipment and components. Customers include both commercial and military organisations, with craft specified for the transport of goods and passengers.

Despite the impact of the Covid pandemic on the aviation industry, exports remain high. This is due, in part, to the industry’s reliance on reserved orders. Airlines and governments often place orders for aircraft well in advance. This helps to insulate the industry from short-term economic instability.
3. Motor vehicles – £14.6 billion

Experts predict that UK motor vehicle manufacturing will continue to grow over the next five years. Demand for passenger cars, commercial vehicles like vans and lorries, and other specialist automobiles remains high.

Demand for new electric vehicles is also predicted to fuel a boom in the UK’s motor vehicle manufacturing industry. Motor vehicles are exported from the UK to locations around the world. At AGI, we work closely with several specialist sea freight forwarders that can offer competitive process on the wholesale export of motor vehicles.
4. Pharmaceuticals – £13.2 billion

AGI refrigerated trailer

The UK is world-renowned for its pharmaceutical production. Several well-established companies manufacture and export a variety of medicines including medical diagnostic preparations, biotech pharmaceuticals, vaccines, vitamins, and antibiotics.

At AGI, our Folkestone branch is heavily involved in the distribution of pharmaceutical products. Our refrigerated lorries are perfect for transporting temperature sensitive medication. And during the Covid pandemic, our lorries were used to import and export vaccination medicines.
5. Refined petroleum – £8.8 billion

UK refineries turn crude oil into products like petrol, diesel, jet fuel, and petroleum-based products including paraffin wax and white spirit. The refined petroleum market is often volatile. Prices fluctuate and the drive to more sustainable sources of energy is causing a reduction in demand.
6. Natural gas and crude petroleum – £7.4 billion

Crude oil and natural gas are extracted from fields both onshore and offshore. The gas and oil can then be exported around the world for refining and turning into usable products.
7. Jewellery – £5.5 billion

Jewellery exports include UK manufactured items using precious and base metals set with precious or semi-precious stones. Other items that incorporate precious metals include watch straps, cigarette cases, and technical laboratory equipment.
8. Clothing – £4.5 billion

Clothing manufacturing in the UK is internationally known for its premium quality. British made clothing is made from a variety of materials and items include workwear, casual wear, formal wear, underwear, and hosiery.
9. Organic basic chemicals – £4.2 billion

Basic organic chemicals include ethylene, propane, and butane. These organic chemicals are manufactured from refined petroleum and are used in a wide variety of consumer goods around the world.
10. Plastics and plastic products – £906 million

Plastics include plastic products such as packaging, building and construction materials and electric and electronic component. It also includes raw materials polymers and waste plastic for recycling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 04:55 AM

mick lynch speaks
https://news.sky.com/video/rail-strikes-rmt-chief-accuses-govt-of-lying-as-transport-secretary-denies-blocking-settlement-with-u


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 05:02 AM

Rail strikes: RMT chief accuses govt of lying as transport secretary denies blocking settlement with union


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 11:07 AM

”Page not found

We're sorry. The page you are looking for cannot be found. You may have followed a broken or outdated link, or there may be an error on our site.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 02:19 PM

Moi Aussie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 04:58 PM

Huh? And...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 04:59 PM

200!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 05:41 PM

It's been my severe misfortune to have had quite a lot to do with the NHS in the last three months. I've had three attacks of cellulitis since September, a condition that can turn life-threatening if not treated promptly. Kudos to my severely overworked GP surgery, who have prescribed the strong antibiotics I need just on the strength of my phone calls. They shouldn't need to operate that way but they have to get us all sorted. They have even agreed to let me keep a stash of a week's antibiotics at home so that I can start taking them at the first hint of symptoms (which happened to me last Friday - without them I wouldn't have been able to get a prescription until today, leading to God knows what). I got a severe attack in September and had to go to A&E (we drove there). I had to wait for over six hours to be seen, even though I hadn't urinated for almost 24 hours, a massive red flag for sepsis. My kidneys were severely damaged, mercifully not irreversibly. Following that were five visits to the medical assessment unit, each one consisting of anything between three and six hours of waiting in a stuffy, cramped waiting room. The cellulitis was sorted out very well by intravenous antibiotics, but I picked up a vicious acute bronchitis infection that took me almost two months to shake off.

Not in even the slightest way can I criticise the doctors and nurses who did their level best to get me sorted. I was dealt with at every step with love and care of the highest order. But I'll tell you what I think I've worked out, after seeing all the reports about the crisis in hospitals, the ambulance queues and the strikes by nurses at the end of their tether: this Tory government wants us to blame the NHS, to hate the NHS. They want the NHS to collapse so that they can privatise the lot and install a two-tier system, maybe even a three-tier system, fast-track for the rich and sod the rest unless you pay big-time insurance premiums. Let's all open our eyes, even you Tories here, and see what's really going on here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 06:22 PM

For a decade or so, my children and their friends have been telling me they do not expect there will be a state pension by the time they retire. They regret it, but there is an acceptance of it.

More and more, I am hearing the same about the end of the NHS from people of all ages. There is a growing fatalism I fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 06:30 PM

Well we have to fight back. I'd like to think electing a Labour government would be a good first step. But liking to think it doesn't actually mean thinking it.

In the meantime, don't get ill this winter. I've had every bloody jab going but I'm scared stiff of getting a dose of cellulitis that I can't get on top of at home myself. I mean, how the hell has it come to this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 23 - 06:37 PM

i agree . today on the front page of the irish times people are advised to consider all opitions before going to hospitals


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 23 - 05:00 AM

yes i am sorry back woodsman, but if you google
Rail strikes: RMT chief accuses govt of lying as transport secretary denies blocking settlement with union, it comes up


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 07:05 AM

I'm worrying myself here. I'm a member of the Labour Party but I'm too bored to listen to Starmer's Big Speech. And wasn't Rachel Reeves a mess on the Today programme?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 12:06 PM

i dont know what to make of the following article
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-41041856.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 12:09 PM

A valid point that all people should not be homeless regardless of nationality, but is she doing it for a racist reason?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 12:42 PM

further more there are hundreds of derelict buildings hundreds of empty but non derelict places just standing empty, some of them are disused churches [one right next to me] whatever happened to jesus and christianity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 01:58 PM

Thanks to the lazy striking postmen, we received a Christmas card today 5 January 2023, posted 30 miles away on 10 December 2022.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 02:05 PM

Have I missed something - has the Republic of Ireland become a member of the UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jan 23 - 06:30 PM

So here's part of a below-the-line comment in the Guardian, with which I concur:

"... Blair was radical. He promised change and he largely did good. He didn't bow to Tory narratives, he set the narrative. If Starmer wants to be a Blairite then act like a Blairite. Be bold. Face the Tories head on. Don't let them set the agenda. Stop being reactive and be proactive.

I'm willing to compromise despite my utter despair with Starmer. I thought his initial start at leadership was good. I'm happy to have Labour sing the national anthem, back the police and support business. What I am not happy is with them failing to support the unions, nationalise where appropriate, build stronger links with the EU and fail to challenge tory nonsense and right wing narratives, sit on the fence and run scared of papers like the sun and the mail which they can never appease.

Be more Blair and be more Corbyn at the same time. Give us hope."

I especially like that last line. Starmer has already nicked lots of Corbyn's policies, but, of course, he can't say so. I hate to say it, but I still don't think he's the man. And even if he does get in, it'll be a short first term.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:13 AM

no backwoodsman , but there is nowhere to post on european topics, and in the past the usa based mods have assumed that


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:21 AM

”no backwoodsman , but there is nowhere to post on european topics, and in the past the usa based mods have assumed that”

Then why not start a ‘European Politics’ thread instead of cluttering up our one and only permitted UK Politics thread with off-topic stuff? Ireland is not a part of the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:32 AM

furthermore part of the island of ireland is in the uk. and this situation appears to happen all over the island of ireland
part of the island of ireland is in the uk, it is hardly off topic , ukrqinian refugees are coming to all parts of the uk including part of ireland and homelessness for people of any nationailty in these countries is not being properly adressed.
there is a part of the island of ireland that is in the uk .


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:36 AM

Northern Ireland is heading into a "homelessness disaster" this Christmas, a charity has warned.

The chief executive of the Simon Community, Jim Dennison, has said that the cost-of-living crisis is making many people unable to afford payments on their homes.
There are at least 1,842 Ukrainian refugees in Northern Ireland who have arrived under the Homes for Ukraine scheme and the Family Scheme Northern Ireland is part of the uk Backwoodsman


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 02:50 AM

Blair radical,no
RADICAL | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org › dictionary › radical
believing or expressing the belief that there should be great or extreme social or political change:


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:34 AM

But your original post wasn’t about NI, it was about the RoI. You quoted, from an RoI newspaper, an article concerning the RoI, and you referred to ‘where I live’ which, IIRC, is Ballydehob? I’ve just checked the map and Ballydehob is in the RoI.

You can wriggle all you like, but the RoI is not a part of the UK. If you wish to discuss RoI politics, I would respectfully suggest that the one and only permitted UK politics thread is not the appropriate place for it, and you should start a separate ‘RoI Politics’ thread.

Wriggle away….


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 04:31 AM

it is an issue [homelessness] which occurs in northern ireland and the uk.
you do not run this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 07:36 AM

”you do not run this forum.”

{{Sigh}} and neither do you.

I’ve made a perfectly reasonable request to keep RoI political issues out of this UK Politics thread and, if you really do want to discuss RoI Politics (and why not, that’s where your gaff is so it’s perfectly understandable that you would want to discuss issues which affect you directly), that you start a ‘RoI Politics’ thread.

It really isn’t a difficult concept. Or are you just looking for yet another public brawl? If so, you’ll have to find another victim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 07:44 AM

Fact checks on -

Richie's speech

and

Keith's speech

Both seem to be lacking


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 08:16 AM

It’s a big problem that we’re living in an age of Dogwhistle-Politics, where the effect of the message is more important to the politicians than its accuracy - the Brexiteers’ campaign being a perfect example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:31 PM

> It’s a big problem that we’re living in an age of Dogwhistle-Politics

Hear hear, BwM, but it goes further back than the Brexiteers: I've just today been reminded of the "Labour isn't working" poster perpetrated by Snatchii and Snatchii in the late 1970s on the biggest billboards in the country. The alleged dole queue in the picture turned out iirc to be a photo of Young Conservatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:43 PM

Yes, I get that it’s been going on a long time. I merely gave the Brexit ‘Leave’ campaign as a recent, perfect example.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jan 23 - 03:48 PM

Best way to shorten the dole queues is to make them stand closer together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 04:12 AM

Very drole Bonzo. Bit like a joke but without the funny bit at the end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 04:48 AM

Excellent win for Conservatives at last night's Great Dunmow South and Barnston (Uttlesford) council by-election result:

CON: 46.0% (+14.1)
RES: 29.2% (-27.3)
LAB: 14.1% (+2.4)
LDEM: 10.8% (+10.8)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 05:23 AM

Yes, an excellent result - on a 16.4% turnout. You forgot to tell us that bit!

I must remember to shout it from the rooftops next time there's an excellent majority vote for a strike on a 16.4% turnout of union members...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 05:27 AM

Turnout is irelevant


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 05:48 AM

A convenient attitude!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 06:19 AM

Funny that, lefties also have convenient attitudes!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 09:43 AM

Rather good article in The Economist Reflecting what I have been thinking for a while now

You may need to create an account but it is worthwhile and you do not need to subscribe.

Little snippets -

"Anyone can jump off a cliff. Climbing one is far harder"

"For Brexiteers, that means recognising the damage that Brexit has done"

"For Remainers, realism means putting aside ideas of rejoining the bloc"

and many more

Enjoy :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 01:33 PM

turnout is irrelevant. that is the correct spelling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 02:12 PM

Fuck of sandman


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 02:56 PM

I think you mean ‘off’, Bonz. Maybe, as well as extra Maths, Fishy Rishi should be pushing additional English tuition for his brainwashed, fore-lock tugging followers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Jan 23 - 03:16 PM

preposition
preposition: of

    1.
    expressing the relationship between a part and a whole. Who are you telling me to conjugate with? not Truss, I hope,


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 08:05 AM

"I Truss not" would have worked :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 Jan 23 - 02:31 PM

I see that the foul mouthed proverbial is taxing the limits of his intelligence again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 23 - 03:19 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001gwx4
Hop growers are warning that unless something changes many won’t be able to continue. They say the cost of producing hops is up by 25% on last year - but that's not being reflected in what they’re being paid.
All week we're looking at machinery, great and small. Technology is often held up as the answer to many of the challenges agriculture faces, from improving efficiency, to reducing costs and fertiliser use, and solving labour shortages.
And a low tech solution to a prickly problem: Highland Cattle are being asked to start work on the windswept Spurn peninsula in East Yorkshire.

Presented by Charlotte Smith and produced by Beatrice Fenton


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 04:33 AM

Folks planning to sell a second property should:
1 Transfer half to spouse if not already done so
2 Make sure completion takes place before 31/03/23

Then 2 x £12,300 tax free allowances are available compared with 2 x £6,000 for sales after 01/04/23, or just £12,300 (pre 31/03/23) and £6,000 (post 01/04/23) if owned 100%!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 04:43 AM

I mean, where would we be without you? Hail the right-wing Martin Lewis equivalent!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 05:42 AM

where would we be? Dogging it in Barking?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 06:54 AM

Nah. Catting it in Catford. Cowing it in Cowley. Lambing it in Lambton. Pigging it in Sowton. Shitting it in Shitlington. Fishing it in Fishbourne. Getting laid in Henley. Even worse in Chicklade...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 11:31 AM

What could we do in Penistone or Scunthorpe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 23 - 11:47 AM

"Penistone" sounds like a special brand of cream for a particular topical application...a firming agent maybe...

And if Typhoo put the t in Britain, who put the (....) in Scunthorpe?

Amusingly, when Jeremy over at TheSession decided to auto-substitute profanities with more euphemistic words, you couldn't type "Scunthorpe" any more. It came out every time as "Seejithorpe..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 12 Jan 23 - 07:31 AM

> "Seejithorpe..."

I heard once (I know not where) that earlier attempts at this sort of thing included "Sconthorpe", which simply transliterated the embedded Naughty Word from English to French.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jan 23 - 08:08 AM

"Sconthorpe",
That might not get rid of the pronunciation, as many people pronounce Monmouth as 'munmuth' and Coventry as 'cuventry'.
Of course the middle of Scunthorpe is not pronounced as a crudity because it ends in 'th', not 't'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Jan 23 - 08:47 AM

Rather, it does not end in a 't', as I would pronounce it.

Scun - thorpe, rather than Scunth - orpe.

The 'th' is quite stressed, as I would say it, rather than unstressed as 'Sunth' would suggest.

Accents, are accents, though, and vary throughout the country. Mine is complicated, but has a Yorkshire foundation.


I am not sure this is a political topic, though!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 12 Jan 23 - 09:04 AM

> I am not sure this is a political topic, though

Let's put it down to political correctness, and move on hastily.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jan 23 - 11:10 AM

”Rather, it does not end in a 't', as I would pronounce it.

Scun - thorpe, rather than Scunth - orpe.

The 'th' is quite stressed, as I would say it, rather than unstressed as 'Sunth' would suggest.

Accents, are accents, though, and vary throughout the country. Mine is complicated, but has a Yorkshire foundation.


I am not sure this is a political topic, though!”


Correct, DMcG, but it’s not necessarily an accent issue, it’s a matter of etymology. ‘Thorpe’ derives from the old Middle English ‘thorp’, meaning ‘small village’, and that’s precisely what Scunthorpe used to be (my grandmother, a Briggensian, could remember it when it was a village and she was sent there to holiday with relatives as a child).

So it’s not ‘Scunth-orpe’ or even ‘Scunt-horpe’, it’s ‘Scun-thorpe’.

Just thought I’d mention it for Nigel’s benefit, knowing his deep and abiding interest in ensuring the accuracy of all details, no matter how insignificant they might seem. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 06:17 AM

"Will political parties dare to resist brexit?" (Article headline in today's Guardian)

"By the autumn of 2022, as Liz Truss’s disastrous premiership exacerbated concerns about the state of the economy, support for rejoining the EU had increased to 57%, against 43% preferring to stay out, according to a poll of polls by NatCen social research.
That marked a significant turnaround from mid-2021, when 52% wanted to stay outside and 48% to rejoin – the same margin as in the referendum five years earlier."

Howsumever, the main parties are all very timid about raising the issue of rejoining. The piece explains why. The can is being well and truly kicked down the road.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 07:53 AM

But those figures are from opinion polls.
Right up to the referendum (June 2016) most opinion polls were showing a vote to remain.
Opinion polls have been shown to be of little use on this subject. That is possibly because people answer the polls with the answer that is expected of them, not wishing to go against the vociferous minority.

Why should polls suddenly be any use in showing the public mood?
Wishful thinking by the Guardian?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 08:08 AM

Come on then, Nigel, list out the benefits we’ve all received as a result of BrexShit - no ‘taken are cuntry back’ nonsense, but real, tangible benefits that are making our lives better than they were in, say, 2020.

I won’t hold my breath…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 08:13 AM

Well point taken, of course, but I think the poll doesn't exactly show a marginal change. There's something in the air, though as I said, I can't see the political parties acting on it any time soon. That means I'm not exactly over the moon about the poll, but I think I see your need to dismiss it so summarily as a reflection of the fact that you always seem to cling valiantly on to the joys of brexit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 08:14 AM

That was a response to Nigel, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 09:40 AM

And still the boats keep coming. can you imagine the the bloody woke, Do gooders and charities standing for stopping a peaceful invasion. They'll all be throwing their toys out the cot!

It's about time this country did the same as Australia.
This country cannot afford this chaos much longer. It's just not fair on the BRITISH TAX PAYER to keep funding this INVASION.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 09:56 AM

Nothing compared to indulging non-doms. Or treating public schools as "charities" by letting them off VAT. Or giving bankers back their bonuses. Or trying to cut the top tax rate for the ultra-rich. Or letting gas and oil producers off with titchy windfall taxes, leaving them with so much profit that they don't know what to do with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:03 AM

Come on then, Nigel, list out the benefits we’ve all received as a result of BrexShit I'm guessing that 'out' should be 'one of', and that you are unable to spell 'Brexit', But:
Increased fishing catch limits

Also, the ability to decide for ourselves what action we take to control visitors from China since the relaxation of their travel restrictions. (Covid protection) Here. The EU claim to work as a bloc, but are making decisions piecemeal. Italy were the first to bring in restrictions, but thanks to Schengen that does not prevent Chinese visitors entering Italy through other EU countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:15 AM

Steve:
I think I see your need to dismiss it so summarily as a reflection of the fact that you always seem to cling valiantly on to the joys of brexit...
And your initially deciding to post it as grasping at straws . . .
(in a similar vein)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:19 AM

Run that by me again, Nigel...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:22 AM

The Uk was not a member of the Schengen agreement. We always had the right to stop non EU citizens from entering the UK from any of the EU member countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:41 AM

Shaw behaving like a lefty schoolboy again!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 10:59 AM

Right up to the referendum (June 2016) most opinion polls were showing a vote to remain

I fully understand why you say that, and it was indeed the message the press and other media were saying.   However, this link from YouGov is worth reading. I believe, also, that the media did not pay anything like enough attention to the range of results within the confidence intervals, just going with the central prediction. Understandable, to try to keep things simple, but misleading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 11:05 AM

Go through my points and tell me which ones you disagree with and why, Bonzo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 02:18 PM

Nigel. Of the two "benefits" you list, the first is possibly worth up to £33m. A drop in the ocean (pun intended) compared to the costs of brexit so far. The second is no different to the border controls we had as part of the EU. So, in a nutshell, no benefits at all :-(

FWIW, I am of the opinion that rejoining the EU is not an option. Firstly, they will not take us back and, secondly, as we have seen since 2016, the subject is too divisive. I am firmly a believer in the EU but I accept that a large part of the electorate will be alienated by going back to 2015. However, leaving things as they are is not an option either. Leavers need to accept and admit that brexit has been a disaster so far and looks likely to be so for a long time to come. As a nation we need to work closely with the EU in a cooperative and positive way. Whatever government is in charge after the next election needs to work hard to build bridges with Brussels and stop the confrontational nonsense that we have seen for the last few years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jan 23 - 02:26 PM

I agree with all that. From the poll I sort of quoted, it seems that more and more leavers are seeing that leaving was a big mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 23 - 02:11 PM

Steve,
As I said, "If you can trust the polls". The link that DMcG gave was to 'YouGov' an online pollster, and they were quite clear in their opening comments:
Every other source of information suggested that a victory for Remain was a done deal - only the online polls revealed the true state of the race. The real story of this campaign is that not enough attention was paid to good polls, not the reverse.

The media who were reporting the expected results were clearly relying on different polls.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 23 - 02:29 PM

Well, there's a difference between a poll that suggests a very tight result and a poll that suggests a gap of 57-43. Still, as with you, I'm always happy to distrust polls. I'm old enough to remember us all thinking that Harold Wilson was a shoe-in in 1970, and looked what happened there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 12:24 AM

Why shouldn't Chinese visitors who are visiting one country in the Schengen area be allowed to visit another. Have you got a problem with Chinese people visiting other countries. That sounds a tad racist to me, shouldn't you be more concerned about the lack of controls that allow BRITISH visitors to travel, for example, for a three day break from Prague to Leipzig without going through border checks??? Or is it just Chinese people, for example, who are visiting the South of France also visiting Venice that you have a problem with. Doesn't that prove that only racists voted leave?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 03:11 AM

A number of countries have concerns about people travelling from China due to the covid situation in that country. I would imagine that you are aware of that fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 05:38 AM

So we are going to get a law that enables the police to prevent a protest if they even *think* it might be disruptive. That's a nifty way of keeping any protests so nice that they don't embarrass the Tories by getting on the front page. In addition, you may have your right to strike scuppered if it's deemed that you must work to provide "minimum service levels." In other words, your strike won't have any impact, and if you don't comply you'll be sacked.

These are incredibly insidious moves - and it's not putting it too strongly - towards totalitarianism. And we don't even have to mention that this self-same bunch of incompetents have themselves failed to provide "minimum service levels" in schools, the police, hospitals and the ambulance service for over a decade...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 06:24 AM

This is one of the things the Brexit-Bunch meant when they were busy parroting ‘Take Back Control’ at every conceivable opportunity. The Feeble-Minded, the Hard-of-Thinking, and the out-and-out Racists were persuaded by the Brexit-liars that ‘Taking Back Control’ was a metaphor for ‘Kicking the forriners (sic) out’ but, sadly, it meant far more than just that - it was a declaration that workers’ rights, citizens’ human rights, and many other benefits that we had got into the habit of taking for granted, we’re to be dismantled.

Never have so many been deceived and made fools of by so few…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 06:26 AM

‘Were’, not ‘we’re’. @%&*ing Predictive Text! :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 06:32 AM

Not just insidious, Steve. It also (erm) strikes me as straight-out counterproductive ....

* Nurses take time and money to train.
* Them Up Top bleat "efficiency savings" and deprive the NHS of money.
* The NHS is understaffed and overstretched (therefore inefficient).
* Nurses start going on strike to make Them Up Top aware that this is not a Good Thing.
* Them Up Top threaten to sack nurses who go on strike.

.... Does not compute. MELON MELON MELON. Out-of-cheese error, and other computational protests to attempting to divide by zero.

On behalf of the rest of the Untied Kingdom, I wanna declare UDI from Planet Headbanger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 06:50 AM

And let's not forget how Johnson not only undermined the law with his illegal gatherings but also tried to undermine the rule of law via proroguing Parliament and by trying to change the law to protect his corrupt mate. I seem to recall Priti Patel not being sanctioned for her illegal dealings in Israel, going as she did well beyond her ministerial remit. And let's not get started on Grant Shapps, with his extremely dodgy business dealings, including operating under a pseudonym in order to deceive, his blatant lies about not having a second job and his gross misrepresentation of benefits claimants statistics. When it comes to laws and rules, they are regarded by the Tories as their playthings, to be tweaked or ignored at their convenience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 06:52 AM

.... Welcome, one misstep at a time, to the Republic of Gilead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 08:29 AM

Amazing how people with nothing to do talk such drivel.

Good on the government for the introduction of a law that enables the police to prevent a protest if they even *think* it might be disruptive. These idiots causing mayhem by risking their lives sitting in the road need putting in their place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 08:44 AM

Just try responding to points made, Bonzo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 09:07 AM

"These idiots causing mayhem by risking their lives sitting in the road need putting in their place."

I am sure that they are able to make their own way to the middle of the road without help from the police.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 09:18 AM

Even better, don't bother responding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jan 23 - 11:54 AM

Attila the Stockbroker on FB today….

”Anti-strike laws happening today - steamrolled through by the Tories like the anti-youth voter ID legislation and anti-climate change protest Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. The only people this government wants to vote (apart from their corporate friends obviously) are old Daily Mail and Sun readers.

They seek to deny those who will be most affected by climate change the right to demonstrate and the right to vote. And they want to keep workers' wages down to generate more dividends for their shareholder parasite cronies. Anti-worker, anti-youth, anti-life.

Support the strikers - and anyone denied a vote next May under the voter ID laws should refuse to leave the polling station. FPTP, unrelenting press bias, organised voter fraud. Enough is enough!”


My parents went through six years of war, and hundreds of thousands died, to keep fascism out of the UK. Those who support this bunch of Hard-Right-Wing fruitcakes should hang their heads in abject shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 04:03 AM

Note lefties all:

The non-domicile regime is credited with encouraging many wealthy foreign nationals to base themselves in the UK, educate their children here, establish businesses and create employment. Preserving the non-dom regime for short-term visitors to the UK is a welcome suggestion which is intended to minimise the impact on the movement of people to the UK to carry out short-term working assignments; however a system which encourages people to leave the UK after a few years means that many will simply choose not to come in the first place.

The value to the economy of wealthy families establishing themselves in the UK for longer periods should not be underestimated. Non-dom families will often make significant investments in businesses resulting in the creation of employment resulting in additional PAYE and NI collected, support UK charities and add to the economy as a whole by spending on these businesses, the education of their children and funding their lifestyle generally. Even though the UK tax system allows them to choose to pay the remittance basis charge of up to £90,000 per year instead of paying tax on their worldwide income, these families often still pay significant amounts of UK tax and add to the UK economy through their own, often significant, spending here. Long-term residents will also be subject to UK Inheritance Tax on their worldwide assets so this measure already helps to balance the equation. All of these factors should be considered by any government wishing to abolish the regime. The tax regime was purposefully designed to make the UK attractive to retain talent and to encourage those who can contribute to our society to move here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 04:15 AM

It should be noted that Bonzo's quote is by Tim Stovold, an accountant specialising in tax avoidance for the wealthy, and is from 2015. It is the opinion of a man who encourages the rich to avoid paying their fair share of tax. Little wonder that it was uncredited and posted as if it was fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 05:08 AM

Well Dave, which bits are not facts. Do the super rich not spend more than the poor? Do they not pay 20% Value Added Tax on all non essential payments? When they buy cars, washing machines, TVs, Kitchens etc, are they not top spec, most expensive and new? No budget spec, second hand models for them.

All payed with an extra 20% going straight into the public purse. Of course if you must make a moral stand then you must deny the public purse this revenue. The poorer amongst us will willingly make up the difference. Won't we?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 05:58 AM

What are not facts?

Stanron -

"The non-domicile regime is credited with encouraging many wealthy foreign nationals to base themselves in the UK" Is speculation, Credited by who?

"a system which encourages people to leave the UK after a few years means that many will simply choose not to come in the first place." Is speculation. How many? Facts and figures please.


"Non-dom families will often make significant investments in businesses" Is speculation. Note the word 'often'. How often? How much?

Of course the rich spend and pay tax but once you base those facts on speculative assumptions they become invalid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 06:03 AM

And please note - Trickle down economics is a known falacy.

https://www.economicsonline.co.uk/definitions/trickle-down-economics-why-it-only-works-in-theory.html/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 06:20 AM

Gnome - without inspecting a sample of nondom tax returns, your utterings are worthless lefty drivel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 06:34 AM

The fact is that they pay less tax than they would if they were "doms" (which is precisely why they choose to be non-doms in the first place), and they can CHOOSE whether or or not to pay big VAT on their expensive cars and luxury kitchens by either buying them or not buying them. In other words, they have tax choices not available to ordinary British people. It's great to have choices when it comes to how much tax you pay. I wish! It's not just the money, Bonzo - it's the principle. Oh, hang on, I forgot - Tories do expedient, not principle...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 07:08 AM

Absolute fucking rubbish


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 07:12 AM

Well we can always tell when we've got you beat, Bonzo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 08:50 AM

Bonzo, I have not once mentioned anything at all about tax returns and they are irrelevant to the discussion. As to being "worthless lefty drivel", well, let's see.

Worthless? Absolutely. Opinions, including mine and yours,on this forum are not worth anything.

Lefty? Yes, I am. It is not the insult you think it is

Drivel? Your quote was from Tim Stovald. He is an accountant specialising in tax avoidance. It was dated 2015. You did not credit him. It was his opinion. Which part of that do you consider drivel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 10:00 AM

What if Bonzo actually is Tim Stovald?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 10:00 AM

Interesting article in "The Telegraph" today behind a paywall

Opinion by Sherelle Jacobs: "Britain is going to rejoin the EU far sooner than anyone now imagines"


"It is time for the Leave camp to start saying the unsayable: the Tories have made such a hash of Brexit that the project is probably now unsalvageable. Given Labour’s Europhile disposition, the window to lay the foundations for Brexit Britain was always limited to the Conservatives’ current reign. Now the end is nigh, and almost nothing has been achieved."
...
Take the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill set to replace the EU’s innovation-crushing GDPR. It was only set out last May and, after endless delays and distractions, there is little hope of getting anything workable passed before the next election. With two years at most until the next election, it would be next to impossible now for the Tories to launch a wholesale review of regulation to jump-start ground-breaking research, or exploit our freedom from state aid rules to channel funding to specific projects – even if they were minded to.

Where are the Brexit Spartans? They don’t seem to be interested in this big picture stuff. They are too busy down in the trenches, fighting their last heroic battle – an attempt to force through a bill which aims to scrap 4,000 EU-derived laws by the end of the year. By failing to explain how specific sectors would benefit from divergence, however, many voters will be wondering what the point is.

This is how Brexit dies. The received wisdom in Westminster is that it will none the less live on, not as a material thing, but as a political phantom – a subject that both parties avoid discussing at all costs, as the referendum’s legacy stalks Parliament, deformed, inviolable, forgotten.

("Sherelle Emma Jacobs is a British journalist. She is the Assistant Comment Editor at The Daily Telegraph" - Wikipedia)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 10:53 AM

I don’t believe we will rejoin the EU for the simple reasons that…

1) the many benefits and advantages we enjoyed over many (most?) other members were flushed down the crapper by the Leave-voting fools, and they would never be reinstated in the unlikely event we applied to rejoin.

2) the Tory government has demonstrated many times to the EU what an untrustworthy gang of rogues they are, and I believe that we are inevitably all tarred with the same brush by the EU. For this reason, I have a very strong suspicion that any such application to rejoin would receive a flat “No”.

But while there’s life, there’s hope. Everything crossed…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 11:50 AM

Stanron - Big grin :-D

That would be good but I have seen Tim's picture and he is far younger than Bonzo. Unless Bonzo is channeling Bojo and telling porkies!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 11:59 AM

"They are too busy down in the trenches, fighting their last heroic battle – an attempt to force through a bill which aims to scrap 4,000 EU-derived laws by the end of the year. By failing to explain how specific sectors would benefit from divergence, however, many voters will be wondering what the point is."

Well it's lost in the mists of time now, but I seem to remember arguing many moons ago with a certain T*erib*us and his sidekick Keith, rest him, that the UK had agreed enthusiastically with around 95% of all the EU rules and regs, we were umming and ahhing over about 3% more and were not happy with about 2%. After all, we were involved deeply in the drawing-up of 'em and were a highly-influential partner... So be prepared for another spell of Tories-not-running-the-country whilst vast tracts of parliamentary time are wasted...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 12:00 PM

PDF of "The Telegraph" article

Any breaches of copyright are, I think, their problem, not mine!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 12:03 PM

Another greedy, tax-dodging Tory being taken to task. The BBC seem to have been completely silent - what a surprise…

Nadhim Zahawi’s tax-dodging caught out…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 08:00 PM

Yeah, seven-figure tax-dodging by all accounts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 23 - 10:20 PM

300!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 12:17 PM

"Yeah, seven-figure tax-dodging by all accounts."

It's not unreasonable to argue your case with HMRC, who are at best draconian, and do not always interpret tax legislation correctly. Good for him, he lost and has to pay, no big deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 01:40 PM

He knew he owed tax and lots of it. He tried to get away with it. He's a cabinet minister. We should hold these people to the highest standards of honesty and integrity. He fails the test, clearly not in your eyes, but objectively....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 02:03 PM

The tax legislation provides the right to appeal an assessment, up to the House Of Lords if necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 02:23 PM

Your arse must be very sore indeed, Bonzo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 04:45 PM

He tried to cheat, Bonzo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 04:58 PM

Prove it, show me a copy of his tax return. You know nothing until you have seen that, which you would not understand anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 05:03 PM

You are defending the indefensible. Just because he's a Tory boy. Where are your principles!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 05:54 PM

Principles are irrelevant, it's tax legislation and the right to appeal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jan 23 - 06:21 PM

He's a cheat, pal! It's all over the news!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jan 23 - 05:04 AM

Principle are totally relevant which is why tax law needs to be updated so that the needs of society are put before the greed of the wealthy. I would go further and give the institutes the duty and power to revoke the right to practice of accountants who are paid proactively identify loopholes and legal avoidance methods that fall outside the spirit of tax law on the basis of what an ordinary person would consider reasonable to apply. I would go further, and make accountants personally liable for the taxes they help their clients avoid which society as a whole would benefit from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jan 23 - 01:26 PM

Interesting article by Dan Neidle about Nadhim Zahawi. Well worth a read.

It is from Neidle's website Tax Policy Associates.


Nadhim Zahawi – the whole story

Of course it should probably be titled 'the whole story so far'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Jan 23 - 01:27 PM

Capital gains are wiped out upon death since your estate will have to pay inheritance tax. So incurring CGT by selling assets later in life could effectively mean paying tax on the same asset twice - don't do it!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 23 - 08:43 PM

So dishy fishy Sunak has been fined for the second time in a year for breaking the law.

"Lancashire constabulary said on Friday: 'You will be aware that a video has been circulating on social media showing an individual failing to wear a seatbelt while a passenger in a moving car in Lancashire.

'After looking into this matter, we have today issued a 42-year-old man from London with a conditional offer of fixed penalty.'"

I mean, he illegally unhitched his seatbelt in order to make a video of himself which was intended for Instagram. What sort of an idiot would do that! An idiot that's running the country...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jan 23 - 03:09 AM

The Tory politicians seem to have a sense of superiority and arrogance, which gives them the idea that they're 'above the Law', unlike us lower beings. I shan't vote for them again, honest!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jan 23 - 04:23 AM

Settlements with HMRC in cases of failed, but lawful, avoidance arrangements invariably include penalties & interest. If it was not "all above board" ( ie dishonest ) he would have been prosecuted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 23 - 06:14 PM

You're valiant, Bonzo, I'll give you that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 03:34 AM

Valiant? Nah, he just enjoys taking it up the arse from the multi-millionaire Posh-Boys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 05:25 AM

Only arseholes believe what they read in the guardian rag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 12:25 PM

i know quite a few people who read the guardian - me included. what exactly is your complaint about us? are you just jealous because you can't understand the long paragraphs or is your problem more philosophical. i've been reading it for nearly 50 years and never read the articles about money/finances - i'm more concerned with broader stuff like politics, ideas, arts and football and so on.....so fundamentally different eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 12:46 PM

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 12:51 PM

In that case, the last thirteen years have proven that the Tories are rock-solid socialists. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 01:05 PM

What bonzo fails to do, yet again, is credit the source of his quote. He cannot even think of original insults on his own but has to rely on the fatuous wit of Winston Churchill. It is probably the years of accounting that has dulled his brain. Glad I got out if it before it was too late!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 01:28 PM

Bonzo proving yet again that he is brainwashed by the propaganda of the Party of the Selfish and Greedy. And of the dishonest, judging by the recent examples of some of its leading members - Johnson, Zahawi, yadda yadda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 01:28 PM

I told you before, I do not credit source, better things to do with my time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 01:35 PM

Then don't be surprised if posts are deleted, Bonzo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 01:44 PM

Nah, just leave them up for all to see what a dishonest person he is, Stilly. He is just mimicking the bunch of crooks, thieves and liars that he seems to idolise. What both he and his role models fail to realise is that most people can see through the deception and that their dishonesty will be there forever


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Jan 23 - 02:29 PM

you never get any idea of what bonzo feels or cares about (the greyhound maybe?) it's just insults, spam numbers and tory worship. now and again i sort of feel the need to enquire - maybe it's the tree hugging, lefty social worker in me - but, like a tiresome client, i don't really care - just wish he and his tory idols would just leave us alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 04:07 AM

"I told you before, I do not credit source, better things to do with my time."

Is that wbat you advise your clients to do Bonzo?

The vast majority of Bonzo's posts, especially on this thread, are sent in order to try and wind people up. It is surprising that, even after all this time, it seems to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 04:18 AM

Well the story in the guardian rag [sic] seems to be true. He did avoid tax and he did pay a substantial penalty, and we're talking about £5 million ballpark. I notice this morning that "penalty" is being used as a euphemism for "fine" (not read in the Guardian either!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 04:41 AM

More from Dan Neidle here.

What the Zahawi statement tells us, and what we still don’t know

I think Zahawi might be gone by Wednesday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 06:11 AM

Either that or he will be prime minister. This lot seem to love cheats and liars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 06:48 AM

The alleged 30% penalty is high and it suggests that he's been a very naughty boy indeed. I agree with Rain Dog. He'll be gone by Wednesday, as PMQ will be like shooting fish in a barrel otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 07:03 AM

Now that Sunak has asked the ethics advisor to investigate, it is very hard to see how they could sell an 'all is fine, nothing to see' story. Yes, I know innocent until proven guilty, but that is law, not politics, and if Zahawi stays, Sunak will pick up lots of charges of "whitewashing" and cries of "Where's this 'integrity, then?'" and much more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 08:32 AM

From the BBC

"A few additional comments from Downing Street now, as the prime minister's official spokesman has been taking questions from reporters.

"Additional facts" over the weekend have led to the ethics investigation into Nadhim Zahawi's tax affairs

Rishi Sunak is previously not understood to have known that Zahawi had paid a penalty to HMRC

The investigation will be completed "as quickly as possible"

Sir Laurie Magnus, who will lead the investigation, will focus on ministerial declarations and whether these breached the ministerial code

But, it could extend to whether Zahawi's tax arrangements were appropriate"

++

So it would seem that either Zahawi:

Did not not fully inform Sunak of all the facts

Or

Sunak is already trying to distance himself from this latest mess.

The Tories could do with a better PR department or just getting their members to be more honest with each other. It might be quite a while before we can expect all of them to be honest with the general public.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 08:33 AM

What I'm waiting for (or did I miss it?) is for Zahawi to receive the curse of "the full and complete support of the Prime Minister". That used to be Parliamentary code for "the pearl-handled revolver is on its way, so do the Right* Thing"; the offender would then resign within the week. So: who's got custody of the pearl-handled revolver?

* I would have said "Honourable", but with this shower? *akkh* *phht*.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 10:06 AM

Yeah, you've missed it! :-) So Fishi is pretending he didn't know about the penalty?   That's a laugh is that. He should step down due either to lying to us or for gross incompetence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 11:05 AM

Now another story of Tory snouts deep in the trough - seemingly our then PM, Boris ‘Father I cannot tell the truth’ Johnson put Richard Sharp’s name forward to become head of the BBC after Sharp had helped set up an £800k personal loan for Johnson.

Greedy, selfish Tory pigs, snouts in the trough once again. And still, the brainwashed, hard-of-thinking fools try to justify supporting them.

https://www.indy100.com/politics/boris-johnson-bbc-chairman-loan


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 11:31 AM

While watching Beeb coverage of Urgent Questions in the House, re Zahawi's little embarrassment, de Pfeffel vs the head of the Beeb ect ect ect ....

Herself: I don't see why they're having Urgent Questions --- they're not answering them.

Me: It puts it on the record that they're not answering them.

.... taking five minutes to say nothing is a skill; this lot doing so under heavy fire is an artform that's so high that it puts a cesspit to shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 11:53 AM

And yet another, in todays Guardian:

Conservative health minister has big stake in Covid testing firm

Exclusive: Nick Markham, who co- founded Cignpost Investments during the pandemic, was given a peerage by Liz Truss


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 11:54 AM

Yes I know there was supposed to be an apostrophe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 04:11 PM

"The alleged 30% penalty is high"

No it's not. He was trying to use the tax laws in a particular way to "avoid" tax, which in itself is not illegal. HMRC did not agree with him, and he let their decision stand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:11 PM

Between 0 and 30% is the penalty for lack of reasonable care so, yes 30% is high. It is the maximum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:13 PM

Somebody who earns enough to be liable for £5 million in tax shouldn’t have any need to dodge paying that tax - they are already immensely wealthy, without dodging paying their taxes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:15 PM

But hey, Tory pigs, snouts, troughs. And supported and enabled by fools who are, by comparison, as poor as church mice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:19 PM

And wasn’t Zahawi the guy who claimed the cost of heating his horses’ stables on his Parliamentary expenses account?

Words like ‘greedy’, ‘grabbing’, and ‘fucker’ spring to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 05:52 PM

So Fishi didn't know "until last weekend" that Zahawi had paid a massive penalty while he was Chancellor. That is simply bollix. Are they really trying to tell us that the Civil Service failed to vet the man who was taking on the highest financial office in the land? Unbelievable. No, worse than that, a downright lie. Of course he bloody knew. That would be like a primary school headteacher hiring Jimmy Savile then claiming that they "didn't know" about his depredations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 06:24 PM

So speak lefty triddlebuts!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 23 - 08:10 PM

There's nowt leftie about wanting some straightforward behaviour from the people who are supposed to be running our country. Although a bit of graft and corruption here and there, a touch of the Old Pals Act and the notion that the law is for others do seem to be rather right-wing sentiments. Perhaps that's what you mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 01:30 AM

Well Steve, our brainwashed, Daily Mail-reader, Tory shill can say whatever he likes about the Lefties, but at least we have the comfort of knowing that, unlike him, we weren’t so gullible as to vote like turkeys for Christmas. He voted for a bunch of greedy, selfish robber-barons, and that’s exactly what he got.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 02:08 AM

Excellent!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 03:55 AM

Q.E.D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 06:22 AM

What is a triddlebut, never heard of such.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 06:57 AM

Quasi-philosophical questions:

Can you be a leftie if:

you live in a half-million quid house, mortgage paid up?

you would rather have Starmer than Corbyn?

you've never borrowed money to buy a car, yet paid eighteen grand for your last one, and you and the missus have a car each?

you have so much saved up that you juggle your money around to avoid paying tax on the interest?

you never have overdraft or credit card debt?

you can still afford to put your heating on?

you once spent an hour looking up the inheritance tax rules?

you vote tactically for the LibDems?

you have a pretty good works pension on top of your old age pension?

you support the monarchy?

you support Manchester Citeh?

you've ever paid more than six quid for a bottle of wine?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 01:01 PM

Part of the OED definition is "a person who advocates or practises socialism"

So, yes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 03:29 PM

I heartily agree but I'm not telling which of those apply to me, just in case anyone thinks there was something autobiographical in that post!

Next question: you can't sing the blues if...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 23 - 10:48 PM

...you support Liverpool?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 23 - 04:27 AM

Well now, Dave, you've provoked me into a sidetrack. I think it's interesting to contemplate that some of the greatest post-war football managers have been socialists. Busby, Cloughie, Fergie, Shankly (aka God) and Klopp, all proud and self-declared lefties. Admittedly, with all the money sloshing around in football, especially in recent decades, there was the sniff of champagne socialism around some of them, though Shanks never got posher than his three-bed semi. I think that their successes in large part can be put down to their philosophy of all for one, one for all, and that no player is more special than any other in the team, a philosophy shared by all the above. David Beckham could tell you that...

A mixed picture, of course, and not all great teams by any means have been managed by lefties. But a significant (and surprising?) number have. So yes, you may not be be able to sing the blues as a Liverpool fan without showing further credentials, but you can definitely be a leftie!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 23 - 05:01 AM

I wonder if Bonzo’s a Man. Citeh fan? He’s daft enough… ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 23 - 05:49 AM

Well I could easily put him off by telling him that Pep Guardiola also has socialist credentials and is a vocal Catalan separatist...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Jan 23 - 03:09 PM

well there's Pep, johann cruyff, xavi/iniesta puyol etc, the catalans and the whole barcelona thing has socialist roots- and much of the greatest football in recent years. and was it paul breitner the german full back who took it to a higher level, as i dimly and probably erroneously recall


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 04:40 AM

I see Zahawi is still there then.

In other news, Rod the Mod has admitted voting Tory but he now admits that this lot are crap. I admit to enjoying his music. Particularly some of the more recent stuff. Does that make me a bad person? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 04:53 AM

”Rod the Mod has admitted voting Tory”

I’d expect nothing else from that washed-up Chav.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 05:10 AM

I saw that too. Of course, a leopard changing its spots leftward (slightly, I suspect) has got to be a good thing, especially one in the public eye. But Rod's view of politics, as reported in that article, is simplistic. Also, I'm not sure that offering to pay for private medical treatment for just a few people is any sort of answer, though anything that shines the light on the shite that this government has dropped on the NHS can't be bad. Simplistic or not, Rod's vote counts for exactly the same as the vote of any professor of politics. We need much better political education in our schools. Of course, the kneejerk reaction to that from the right wing is that we're all subversive reds under the bed (I know that from first-hand experience in the 70s). Whenever working-class people vote Tory, they are doing it out of an ignorance that the right has every interest in maintaining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 05:21 AM

Zahawi is still there because the can has been kicked down the road - "We have to wait for the outcome of the independent [sure...] enquiry, blah..." A touch of "waiting for Sue Grey" all over again. It won't work this time. Silly Rishi has yet to see how toxic it is keeping him on board. On top of what's already happened, there's the report of £30 million in unsecured loans to his wife's business... That one hasn't caught fire yet....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 05:45 AM

Beg pardon for misspelling your surname, Sue Gray!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 06:12 AM

What is your objection to the loans?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 08:05 AM

For Bonzo's benefit, from yesterdays Guardian. I did not say I objected, Bonzo. But in light of his murky tax affairs and the fact that he's been the Chancellor, I think more clarity would be welcome.

Nadhim Zahawi, the beleaguered former chancellor and current chair of the Conservative party, is under pressure to reveal the source of about £30m of unsecured loans made to his wife’s UK property company.

The loans were used to finance parts of a large UK property portfolio, reported last year as worth about £100m, and were declared in company accounts which span a period from 2017 to 2021 but give no information about who the lenders are.

The calls for greater transparency are the latest request for the former chancellor to explain how his family’s fortune has been managed, after he became embroiled in a mounting controversy over his tax affairs that prompted the government to launch an ethics investigation.

Accounts show just under £30m has been provided as unsecured loans to a company called Zahawi & Zahawi, which has paid £60m for a property portfolio that includes commercial and retail premises in London, Birmingham, Brighton and Walton-on-Thames in Surrey.

Zahawi & Zahawi was formed in 2010 when it was owned jointly by the MP and his wife, Lana Saib, before he transferred his 50% shareholding to her when he became a junior minister in January 2018.

Zahawi, whose tax affairs have been referred to the independent adviser on ministerial standards, said he was confident he had acted properly throughout, adding: “In order to ensure the independence of this process, you will understand that it would be inappropriate to discuss this issue any further, as I continue my duties as chairman of the Conservative and Unionist party.”

Zahawi is battling to save his political career after he admitted reaching a tax settlement with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) following an “error” over capital gains from the sale of shares in YouGov.

The former chancellor has faced scrutiny on a tranche of shares in YouGov, the polling company he co-founded, which were held by a Gibraltar company, Balshore Investments, and sold for about £27m between 2006 and 2018. It was estimated by the thinktank Tax Policy Associates he may have avoided £3.7m in capital gains tax on the sale of these shares.

Dan Neidle, a tax lawyer and founder of Tax Policy Associates whose work initially raised awareness of the Zahawi family finances, said: “The fact that an MP’s family can receive £30m of unsecured loans I find incredible. Those loans could be from Elvis for all we know. But it is a fact that a person or persons unknown has loaned the Zahawi family £30m and we don’t get to know who.”

Prem Sikka, a Labour member of the House of Lords and an emeritus professor of accounting at the University of Essex and the University of Sheffield, added: “There has been no explanation in the accounts of who provided these loans. Given the concern over Mr Zahawi’s tax affairs we now need further clarity. The ethics adviser should be looking at these matters too.”

The loans in question were not secured against any assets, according to the accounts. Most property loans are secured against the building itself, and the name of the lender is often declared in the Land Registry or at the UK corporate registry, known as Companies House.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 12:58 PM

Bet the Daily Heil hasn’t got that on its front page…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 01:25 PM

What obligation to disclose source of the loans?

The accounts show what is required of a private company, however a reader must assume that the company has not been affected by Covid, and no Covid Grants have been claimed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 05:14 PM

I didn't say there was an obligation. I sad that clarity would be welcome. My friendly advice to Nadhim would be that continued absence of clarity regarding his affairs will hurt not just him but Rishi too. Why would I worry about the Tories hurting themselves? Carry on, lads!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 06:25 PM

Nobody discloses any more in small company filleted accounts than required FRS 102 1A to show "a true and fair view".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 23 - 06:39 PM

Well that tells us. Clear as bloody mud. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 03:22 AM

When you mention leopards, Steve, should it not have been changing his leopard skin pants? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 04:29 AM

What is your objection to the loans?

My objection to the loans is that the source of them is hidden. If, for example, what had happened is one of his UK companies bought a whole lot of services from the Cayman Islands, and so avoided tax because it made no profit, then loaned the money back to him as an unsecured loan, that would be a clear case of tax evasion and fraudulent. If it came from a Russian oligarch it would problematic for other reasons. That it was unsecured raises the question whether the lender actually wanted something other than money in return.

So the problem is not the loan, but the secrecy around them and in particular the fact they were unsecured.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 04:50 AM

I should add, by the way, that the fact a company is not obliged to release information is a very poor excuse for letting someone who wanted to play the system get away with fraud. I am not accusing anyone, naturally, just saying how thin that defence is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 06:34 AM

Well it is what it is, so put up or shut up!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 06:45 AM

The whole point, Bonzo, is that it may not be what it appears to be, and what it really is may just be a tad shady. We're not talking here about spivs selling stuff off the back of a lorry. We're talking about people who are running the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 06:58 AM

Well, unlike the Lefty Triddlebuts, Bonzo ‘knows his place’ where his betters are concerned, he assures himself of their approval by gazing askance, doffing his cap, and tugging his forelock in their presence, and he has the good manners to thank them after he’s lifted his shirt for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 07:28 AM

"The whole point, Bonzo, is that it may not be what it appears to be, and what it really is may just be a tad shady."

I suggest that you write to the company and complain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 08:40 AM

Nah. I think I'll just wait for Nadhim to be sacked (a cert) and for the feckless Tories to implode (another cert).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 11:28 AM

”Nah. I think I'll just wait for……the feckless Tories to implode.”

Bring it on - it’s high time that parcel of greedy, tax-dodging rogues got their just desserts before they totally bankrupt the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jan 23 - 12:26 PM

Oh, I forgot ‘lying’ - ‘that parcel of greedy, tax-dodging, LYING rogues…”.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 04:05 AM

Steve’s first prediction has come true - Zahawi’s got the boot! Not before time! Now for the second prediction - everything crossed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 04:07 AM

Yeah a few days later than I expected but he has gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 04:57 AM

Yes, he has gone, and rightly so.

Consequently, I expect the media and others will quietly forget to explore that mysterious £30m unsecured loan. They should not, but I expect they will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 05:57 AM

There is absolutely no way that you will find out the source of that loan - no obligation to disclose in small company acccounts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:09 AM

A loan from the company to a director or family member of a director is a different matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:18 AM

Are our tory trolls enjoying their humble pie for breakfast? Seem that Zahawi not carelessly failed to declare millions stashed away on offshore accounts, but also carelessly failed to disclose that he was under investigation by HMRC when he was appointed Chancellor of the Exchequer and Party Chairman. This shows the extent of total contempt that the self-entitled **** have towards those of us they consider their inferiors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:20 AM

Nevertheless, the secrecy surrounding the loan, together with Zahawi’s failed attempt to defraud HMRC of £5m in unpaid tax, demonstrates that he is a very, very shady character indeed.

Mrs Backwoodsperson habitually refers to Zahawi as ‘The Eunuch of Stamboul’. Easy to see why…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:37 AM

of Stamboul was Constantinople
Now it's of Stamboul not Constantinople!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:39 AM

Humble pie???? No I had some excellent thick bacon - a Jewish Vegan's delight!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 01:25 PM

thick bacon? is that like gammon?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 01:26 PM

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 02:38 PM

LOL! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 03:24 PM

I mean thickly cut bacon, Morrison's best!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:22 PM

Yeah, don't confuse the bacon with the gammon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 06:42 PM

so, bozo, you choose your diet by the amount of offence it may give to decent people. you are one sick eejit. do you really imagine anyone cares? do you talk about your food related attacks on minorities outwith these pages? do you boast about your gluttony just to annoy foodbank users?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 23 - 07:15 PM

And anyway, you can't make a proper bacon butty with thick-cut bacon. Bloody Croydonista southerner...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 01:55 AM

Usual drivel from peteglasgow


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 02:09 AM

A-a-and…400!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 06:42 AM

Bacon is often preserved with Nitrites, which are contributory to Colon Cancer, good eating, Bonzo


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 23 - 06:49 AM

Earlier this year, France's health agency ANSES confirmed a link between nitrites and nitrates in ham and charcuterie and the development of colorectal cancer - otherwise known as bowel cancer. The French government has since begun planning the reduction or phasing out of nitrites from processed meats in the country.29 Dec 2022
Italy is alone in banning these preservatives to protect their Parma Ham industry
Do Italians use nitrates?
Italy has always been at the forefront in the production of raw ham without nitrates. PDO hams are always free of these preservatives, to regulate.30 Apr 2022


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 23 - 01:49 PM

Just seen elsewhere…

”The idea of the Tories having an Ethics Advisor is like a brothel having a Virginity Consultant”.

Made me larff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 10:29 AM

Things not looking too good for Voldemort Raab - eight complaints for bullying under investigation, a total of twenty-four complaints have been registered (allegedly).

The words ‘Ethics’ and ‘Tories’ really don’t belong in the same sentence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 12:31 PM

when you see him sat beside the prime minister du jour at PMQs he always has the same sort of strange expression - angry though vacant


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 12:55 PM

You've put a picture in my head Pete. Raab alongside Rotten and Vicious singing "Pretty Vacant" :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 06:46 PM

i always think about john mcdonnell with jeremy
thatcher and keith joseph
brown and blair
john major and currie
cameron and osborne
johnson and trump

all with their varied skills, vices and peculiarities

then there was truss and coffey. jeez, how did it ever come to that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 23 - 07:31 PM

Diane Abbott (do note the correct spelling, Bonzzoo...) has an educational background that would put most of us here to shame, me included. Go on, look it up. Jeremy Corbyn, though perhaps not a born leader, has more principle in his little finger than all those Tories Pete mentioned put together, and a damn sight more than Starmer.

Anyway, Raab is doomed. Next to go. I wouldn't like to bet on who will be next after him. There will be Braverman scandals to come I should think, though Shapps already has form. Fishi's dad-in-law is embroiled in tax issues with HMRC, nothing to see here, just another few million...

My missus brought me up a cup of tea a couple of mornings ago. That early, I didn't have my hearing aids in. She'd been listening to Today and was saying to me, they've decided not to ban neonicotinoid insecticides...Thérèse Coffey...

I said, what use would that be? We don't raise coffee in this country, the climate's too cold! I was lucky to receive that tea still in its cup... (and that's a completely true story!)

As of this year it's 50 years since I joined the NUT, now the NEU. I'll never not be in a trade union until they finally carry me out in a box, and I never worked a single day as a teacher not in the Union. I fought the good fight along with many another to get the Union to be militant, which in my opinion it never has been (which in large part is why teaching has been shat on for decades), and got in trouble several times with the Union establishment. My union mentor and numero uno brother-in-arms was Blair Peach, one of the finest men it's been my privilege to know. In spite of this shoddy government's rules about who can strike (they got into power on a far weaker mandate than we have to achieve to go on strike, lest we forget), we comfortably won the strike ballot, which echoed the strength of feeling I've seen in the people I know who are still in teaching, generally a very mild-mannered bunch. It could be that this bloody shower will eventually starve the public sector workers back to work, but that will be nothing like a solution. I want to see Labour giving us a real alternative for repairing the public sector, even if it's never going to be a quick fix. I'm hearing nothing of vision so far...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Feb 23 - 04:19 PM

Why doesn’t the HMR&C break into Zahawi’s house and install a prepayment tax meter?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 03 Feb 23 - 08:24 PM

Pray tell me, who f***ed up the economy last year. Her name wasn't Truss, was it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 03:16 AM

Yea, but she is white and wimpy. Bonzo will like that. Makes him feel manly


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 04:38 AM

Saw this on FarceBook this morning (button it, Steve) - thought I’d post it here for our resident Zahawi-apologist to peruse…

”Dear Nadhim Zahawi, today I had two rather marvellous and deeply British experiences, and I thought you might like to know about them. I have been ill for the past four weeks with a particularly unpleasant flu virus, and since I am both self-employed and immunocompromised I thought I'd better check in with my GP today before things started to turn nasty. I called the surgery at 10.15 am, expecting there to be long delays at all points in the system; but by 12.15 I had been dealt with by a very skilled receptionist, triaged, been given an oppointment, been seen by a doctor, been diagnosed and given a prescription, been to the pharmacy and taken my first drugs. God Bless the NHS - what an amazing invention. Then ( after I had a little lie down) I finished and filed my online tax return, without, I am happy to say, my accountant finding any errors, careless or no; I then hit the button and proudly paid my taxes, in full, out of the money which I have managed to save in the course of the past year of not very highly paid work as a writer, teacher and freelancer. It seems to me that the two things are not unconnected; we pay our taxes, and in return we get this extraordinary public service. Now I know that some people are saying that the NHS is a mess, that it needs more money, but that sadly we just can't afford it from current tax revenues. Well, here's an idea; what if very single one of the top earners in this country - oh, I don't know - let's say just the top 1% of them- what if just that top 1% paid their full whack of taxes fairly and promptly, instead of exploiting all and every available legal loophole and/or occasionally resorting to a spot of "carelessness" via their accountants. Imagine. For instance, imagine if only another 500 or 1000 people had each paid - oh, I don't know - plucking a figure out of the air - if they each paid another £3.8 million in taxes this year - without being asked, or forced, but simply because they are proud of this country and its NHS and all the extraordinary work it does.....or even simply because they are decent human beings. Just saying. Just imagine, eh?”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:15 AM

What absolute bollocks. HMRC will not allow overpayment of tax, they will refund any excess paid automatically.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:28 AM

Nobody mentioned ‘overpayment of tax’. Where did you dig that red herring up from? For your clients’ sakes, I hope your maths is better than your English comprehension.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:41 AM

HMRC will not allow overpayment of tax, they will refund any excess paid automatically

Great! So your advice to the Zahawi's and others is, in the event of the slightest doubt, to overpay any tax they might be due, safe in the knowledge any excess will be refunded.

Hardly worth employing an accountant, then Just pay lots and let HMRC sort it out!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 06:47 AM

"HMRC will not allow overpayment of tax, they will refund any excess paid automatically."

Not strictly true.

Voluntary payments / donations to government

"Donations in general towards public expenditure

If you wish to make a voluntary payment to HM Government you may arrange a direct bank transfer to HM Treasury. Please be advised that gifts cannot be ring-fenced for a specific purpose or assigned to a specific area of public spending."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Feb 23 - 10:12 AM

Worth asking again. Just who was it that managed to wipe billions off the economy by getting her sums wrong?

And just how stupid would anyone be to think that they can liken a large lady of African heritage to a hippopotamus and think they can get away with it?


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