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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2

Rain Dog 17 Nov 22 - 05:45 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Nov 22 - 08:28 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Nov 22 - 01:26 AM
DMcG 18 Nov 22 - 04:14 AM
DMcG 18 Nov 22 - 04:15 AM
MaJoC the Filk 18 Nov 22 - 10:54 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Nov 22 - 11:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 22 - 11:47 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Nov 22 - 12:49 PM
Rain Dog 19 Nov 22 - 03:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Nov 22 - 04:17 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 22 - 05:44 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Nov 22 - 02:27 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 22 - 03:30 PM
Rain Dog 20 Nov 22 - 02:57 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Nov 22 - 04:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Nov 22 - 05:45 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Nov 22 - 06:17 AM
Rain Dog 20 Nov 22 - 06:36 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Nov 22 - 07:01 AM
Stanron 20 Nov 22 - 07:54 AM
Stilly River Sage 20 Nov 22 - 11:50 AM
MaJoC the Filk 20 Nov 22 - 02:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Nov 22 - 02:13 AM
Stanron 21 Nov 22 - 06:11 AM
MaJoC the Filk 21 Nov 22 - 06:34 AM
MaJoC the Filk 21 Nov 22 - 06:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Nov 22 - 07:24 AM
Stanron 21 Nov 22 - 09:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Nov 22 - 09:41 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Nov 22 - 11:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Nov 22 - 12:16 PM
DMcG 22 Nov 22 - 04:59 AM
peteglasgow 22 Nov 22 - 10:49 AM
Rain Dog 22 Nov 22 - 01:51 PM
Backwoodsman 22 Nov 22 - 02:03 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 22 - 03:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 22 - 03:13 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 22 - 03:52 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 22 - 04:04 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 22 - 10:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Nov 22 - 07:51 AM
Bonzo3legs 26 Nov 22 - 05:05 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 22 - 05:48 AM
Bonzo3legs 26 Nov 22 - 06:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Nov 22 - 06:32 AM
Bonzo3legs 26 Nov 22 - 06:52 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Nov 22 - 06:58 AM
Geoff Wallis 26 Nov 22 - 07:08 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Nov 22 - 07:36 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 05:45 PM

"The freeze on tax thresholds is nothing short of criminal."

All thresholds?

They were already frozen until 2025/26. Hunt has extended that freeze until 2028. That might well change of course depending on circumstances and/or a change of government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 22 - 08:28 PM

I have nothing against freezing or bringing down the thresholds for higher earners. But freezing those AND the one that hits the lowest earners is what Tories do. All in it together, remember?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 01:26 AM

Our resident cap-doffing, forelock-tugging Tory-apologists are noticeable by their absence. Wonder why they’re not here explaining to the simple folk why the contents of *unt’s Autumn Statement will be good for us all? Could it be, perhaps, that even they are getting a little tired of taking it up the arse from their masters?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 04:14 AM

One thing that is being under-remarked on, in my view, is the daily in the social care funding. In raw budget terms, it is understandable since it is a huge additional cost that we are not yet paying.   But: it is very well known that one of the big problems with the NHS 'efficiency' is the number of NHS hospital beds occupied with people who cannot be discharged as there is no person or organisation to care for them. If you really want to improve the efficiency of the NHS, one of the biggest single things you could do is invest in social care.

One more remark on NHS efficiency - and efficiency in general, come to that. A friend I had worked in NHS admin and part of her job was consolidating notes from various sources. She was hauled over the coals and eventually sacked because she was too slow and did not meet the daily average of others in the office, most of whom highlighted a section of notes and then copy and pasted it into the combined document. As a result they processed many times the amount she did.

Now to the related story. A friend of my wife broke her left arm and they decided she needed an MRI scan. After around three weeks she turns up and they are all ready to scan her left wrist. She objects, pointing out it is her right arm in the sling. No, the notes say they need to scan he wrist. If, however, she signs to say she is refusing treatment ... No way, she says, I am not having "refused treatment" in my notes.


What is happening here is that in the drive for 'efficiency' the wrong thing is being measured, and 'effectiveness' is being lost. The two are three seconds saved by not checking whether the notes were being pasted into the right person's notes (which is what I suspect went wrong)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 04:15 AM

... have been more than paid for with faulty appointments wasting the time of many more, more expensive staff and equipment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 10:54 AM

It's an old problem, DMcG: Local optimisation is always easier than the global sort. If you can't measure the important thing, find something you can measure, which may or may not be related, and call that important.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 11:18 AM

But: it is very well known that one of the big problems with the NHS 'efficiency' is the number of NHS hospital beds occupied with people who cannot be discharged as there is no person or organisation to care for them. If you really want to improve the efficiency of the NHS, one of the biggest single things you could do is invest in social care.

Yes, the hospitals need somewhere to discharge patients to avoid bed-blocking.
The ideal would be 'cottage hospitals', or 'respite centres'!
Unfortunately, they're gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 11:47 AM

Social care is generally in the remit of the local authority. It does tend to get more complex than that of course. If the social care is required for a long term illness, such as dementia (I have gone through the process with both my late parents) the NHS will fund it. By derestricting the amount that the local authorities can raise their council tax, Hunt has introduced an additional tax that I am sure he will state has nothing to do with him and everything to do with the local authority in question. We all know of course that shifting the responsibility to the local authority is simply a way of cutting down on what central government spends. It remains to be seen whether this will be good or bad for health care but one thing is sure. We will all pay more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 22 - 12:49 PM

By derestricting the amount that the local authorities can raise their council tax,

The possible rise in council taxes has not been 'derestricted', the cap on possible rises has been raised. There is still going to be a restriction of 5% (So council taxes will not even rise in line with inflation, without needing a referendum)
The fact that councils are permitted to charge more does not automatically mean that all council taxes will now rise to meet the new cap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 03:34 AM

Unison president Andrea Egan expelled from Labour Party

Does not seem to have had much coverage in the MSM.

Don't know how many people Labour employ to read through social media postings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 04:17 AM

The fact that councils are permitted to charge more does not automatically mean that all council taxes will now rise to meet the new cap.

Hahahahahahahahahanahaha

Oh, and

Hahaha


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 05:44 AM

I thoroughly dislike the term "bed-blocking" and refuse to use it. Those people who can't be discharged because the care system is broken are completely blameless. If anyone is "blocking" hospital beds it's the bloody Tories and their shameful policies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 02:27 PM

Steve, go ahead and blame the Tories if you wish. But whose government closed the cottage hospitals?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 22 - 03:30 PM

Well I've said several times before that I hold no candle for the New Labour years. But, twelve years on, shall speak as we find?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 02:57 AM

Maybe that should be 40 years on, maybe more, shall we speak as we find. Successive governments have ignored this problem, preferring to leave it for the 'next lot' to try and sort. Meanwhile the problem just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

One day, perhaps, a government will decide to try and do something about it. One day, perhaps, the population will agree on a way to fund it and the best way to use that fund. I doubt that is going to happen within the next few years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 04:31 AM

The last twelve years because the NHS and care sector are in a far worse state now than they were twelve years ago. A&E, waiting lists, waiting times, access to GPs... There are plenty of wrinklies like me whose adverse experiences abundantly attest to the unacceptable decline. Tory ideology has been opposed to the NHS right from the get-go in the 1940s and nothing has changed. Know thine enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 05:45 AM

Interesting and purely factual analysis here

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

Interesting graphic towards the end labelled "Changes in UK public spending on health"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 06:17 AM

Yep, the two graphs at the bottom spell out nicely the Tory attitude to the NHS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 06:36 AM

74 years since the start of the NHS and it is still with us. 74 years in which the Tories have been in government for the majority of that time. 74 years and the NHS is one of the biggest employers in the world.

I think we can all agree that things could be better. That will mean that more needs to be spent by all of us. We need a sensible conversation about that.

The system itself also needs looking at. So far I have had little need of the NHS for myself. Between 2015 and 2018 my mother did. In the last 2 years of her life she had more ambulance trips to A&E and stays in hospital. I spent a lot of that time in the hospital with her, in A&E waiting for treatment and then a move onto a ward. When on the ward, I and another brother spent time with her outside of normal visiting hours, assisting at mealtimes. You do see a lot and it was a wake up call.

There are no easy solutions. Most people don't want to think about social care problems until it affects them personally. Growing old is not for the faint hearted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 07:01 AM

74 years during which the Tories have not dared to scupper the NHS, a move that would consign the Tories to the dustbin of history where they belong. Over the last twelve years they have been doing it by stealth. The problems now caused by chronic underfunding (see graphs) are put down by Tories to "top-heavy bureaucracy" and "inefficiencies." They want the public to gradually fall out with the NHS, then they can do what they like with it. Like I said, know thine enemy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stanron
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 07:54 AM

A lovely example of how to lie with statistics. That graph, here's the link again;

https://fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

does not show spending on the NHS. It shows INCREASE of spending on the NHS.

Decrease in spending is when the graph goes below the base line. It shows three very short instances when this happens. Between 1950 and 1960, the late 1970s and mid to late 1990s. The last one was definitely a Labour Government. The second one is difficult to tell. Government went between Harold Wilson for Labour and Ted Heath for Conservatives and the graph isn't accurate enough to determine who was in power at the time of that dip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 11:50 AM

This marks the migration of the Brexit & other UK political thread over into a new shorter (for now) thread to spare the Mudcat server from those times when people load the entire old long thread. And it should be helpful for people on tablets and phones (and please note - when looking at the main Mudcat loading page - click on the 123o small blue number means only the 50 most recent posts load in descending order, not the entire thread).

A few of the most recent posts from that old thread will be moved here for continuity (if this thread can ever be accused of that). Here is the original thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 20 Nov 22 - 02:20 PM

There won't be an exact correlation between health-service funding and changes in Government: policy decisions can be timed to take effect in the next parliament. But I knew trouble was ahead many years ago, when I read the observation that bed occupancy was about to go over 90%, and that that correlates with hospital-acquired infections going Whoomph.

.... I'm finding it difficult to read this thread about the NHS being slowly strangled. I suffer from earworms, and I've just come another thread which started "Buddy Can You Spare A Dime" running around in my head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 02:13 AM

Stanron, that is exactly why the title is CHANGES in spending. Which is how I reported it. No lie at all. Now, bear in mind that to keep pace with costs, spending must increase every year. It is a perfectly factual representation of how different governments react to that spending. Just what is this lie that you are talking about?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 06:11 AM

One example of a lie is calling a 'smaller increase' a 'cut'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 06:34 AM

Indeed, DtG. Context is all, and in this case includes wage inflation, and the inflationary effects of health insurance in the USA on the price of medicines this side of the puddle. Re the latter, we've seen an exactly similar problem here with vets' bills: if the insurance company pays at the point of use, expensive treatments become financially viable for the vet to offer, and they get into the habit of charging through the nose for everything.

Methinks I've commented before about the difference between efficiency and effectiveness, but (from another context): "Programs which are designed to be efficient are hell for those who have to provide the input or use the output."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 06:37 AM

I'd say "a cut in real terms", Stanron, or "a stealth cut" if I'm in a feisty mood.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 07:24 AM

One example of a lie is calling a 'smaller increase' a 'cut'.

I disagree on that point, Stanron, as an increase in funding that is less than the increase in costs is effectively a cut. But that is beside the point. Where in the linked article does it refer to the smaller increases as cuts? How are the facts portrayed lies? Just where in the article is there "A lovely example of how to lie with statistics."?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 09:01 AM

D the G posted;

Where in the linked article does it refer to the smaller increases as cuts? How are the facts portrayed lies? Just where in the article is there "A lovely example of how to lie with statistics."?

Who said that the lie was in the stats? I was talking about using the stats to support lies like 'Tory cuts to the NHS'. There's plenty of those in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 09:41 AM

Stanron. Your post "A lovely example of how to lie with statistics. That graph, here's the link again..." looks remarkably like you are saying that the graph is a lovely example. If that is not what you meant then apologies for the diversion. Where are the stats used to support lies then? As I said, I would class underfunding as cuts but. if you insist on denyting that we can come up with plenty Tory lies instead. How about https://boris-johnson-lies.com/?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 11:49 AM

“I believe in Brexit, I voted for Brexit, I know that Brexit can deliver, and is already delivering, enormous benefits and opportunities for the country." - Rishi Sunak.

Name those ‘enormous benefits and opportunities’, you greedy, lying moron, name just one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 22 - 12:16 PM

Weve taken are cuntry back...

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 04:59 AM

Weve taken are cuntry back...

In a sense, in a sense.

Not sure of the date they have in mind, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: peteglasgow
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 10:49 AM

if starmer really believes this pro-brexit nonsense how long before he starts deselecting, or expelling us remainers? he could take the chance of getting rid of the socialists still hanging around


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 01:51 PM

What strange times we are living in.

Nigel Farage Has Praised Keir Starmer's Speech On Immigration


"Today, Keir Starmer says we must stop the reliance on cheap foreign labour, start training our own people.

“What with that, and saying the House of Lords must be removed in its current shape, Starmer is now repeating the UKIP 2015 manifesto.

“He may not mean any of it, of course, but to think the Labour Party are now to the right of the Conservatives on immigration. That’s where we are, British politics, today.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 02:03 PM

Who, in their right mind, gives a FF what the beer-swilling, chain-smoking man-frog says?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 22 - 03:27 PM

So this is Starmer-Tory-not-so-lite so far:

Marginalise the left on the shallowest and most dishonest of pretexts and do your damnedest to prevent their selection in constituencies.

Refuse to consider rejoining the single market/customs union.

Going back on his word on the free movement that he was so keen on during his leadership election campaign.

Going hard on immigration, oh, except when we need veg pickers, and, well, those skilled workers trained in other countries are always welcome, of course...

Rattle on about a "points system." Anyone remember, not too many years ago, how we excoriated the Aussie points system for immigrants for being so blatantly racist?

I'm still a member but I'm seriously considering my position...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Nov 22 - 03:13 AM

Someone close to me has been suspended on the flimsiest of excuses. She is female, disabled, Jewish and, of course, left wing. She had to jump through hoops to be selected as a council candidate for the next locals and was nearly thwarted at the last minute by the right of the local party changing the rules at the last minute but she was selected anyway.

I cancelled my membership when Rebecca Long-Bailey was suspended. Glad I did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 22 - 03:52 AM

Staying in the party yet criticising Starmerism at every turn makes me feel like a bloody fifth-columnist. Whilst it doesn't feel anything like the party I joined when Jeremy Corbyn was elected in those days of hope, it still contains lots of us lefties, not many in influential positions of course. Just think: if Starmer ever glanced at this thread, I'd be out on my ear, wouldn't I?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 22 - 04:04 AM

From this morning's Guardian.

Labour event on race issues sidelined leftwing black MPs, claims Abbott

Keir Starmer has been accused of “marginalising” black leftwing Labour MPs after they claimed they were not invited to a crunch event aimed at regaining the confidence of BAME party members.

Diane Abbott described the event as a “PR exercise” and criticised the party for excluding MPs including Clive Lewis, Bell Ribeiro-Addy, Dawn Butler, Florence Eshalomi and Marsha de Cordova.

The event on Saturday, the first of its kind, aimed to ease tensions with black and Asian members after the Forde report found Labour had not done enough to tackle anti-black racism and Islamophobia in the party.


The event did include some black MPs, but they were from the right of the party. A weak man and weak leader trying to bully his way into shaping the party in his own image is certain to end in tears. And watch your back, Diane...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 22 - 10:11 AM

So the net immigration numbers have hit the highest level ever recorded by some margin. There will, of course, be excuses and "reasonable explanations." There always are. I think it's what's called taking back control of our borders, if I remember rightly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 22 - 07:51 AM

Yet more smoke and mirrors from this bunch of liars and cheats

Immigration claims repeatedly being made based on unpublished data


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 05:05 AM

There will be fewer tax planning opportunities to save Capital Gains tax after 06/04/23 - so:

Make sure you utilise your annual tax-free allowance of £12,300 before 05/04/23. Consider selling assets, shares for example, that can be sold within the tax-free allowance.

If your chargeable gains are likely to exceed the £12,300 limit, are there any assets you can sell at a loss to reduce the total gains below the tax-free limit? It is no longer possible to sell and buy back shares to facilitate this planning option: the so-called “bed and breakfast” arrangement.

If you are contemplating the sale of your business make sure you have arranged your affairs such that you can claim Business Asset Disposal Relief. This will potentially allow you to make qualifying gains of up to £1m and only pay CGT at 10%.

CGT payable on chargeable disposals after 5 April 2022 and before 6 April 2023 will be due for payment 31 January 2024. If you delay the disposal until after 5 April 2023, any CGT due will be payable a year later, 31 January 2025. Theoretically, you could delay a disposal by one day (from the 5 April 2023 to the 6 April 2023) and it would extend the amount of time you would have to pay the tax by 12 months.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 05:48 AM

Let's hope all the little UK Mudcat capitalists are listening!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:20 AM

Let's hope lefties with second homes and stocks snd shares are listening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:32 AM

Why would lefties have second homes and stocks and shares? As you know, property is theft! :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:52 AM

So you've been reading EP Thompson - jolly jolly good.


Why would lefties not have second homes and stocks and shares?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 06:58 AM

I use only those horrid fruity tea bags, because proper tea is theft.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 07:08 AM

It was Proudhon, as any fule no.

'La propriété, c'est le vol!'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 22 - 07:36 AM

Obviously our Resident Tory-brainwashed Fule didn't no! :-)


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