BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 04:02 PM

That's an interesting point of view Nigel, and I can see a logic to it
But to settle it in my mind, I tried this thought experiment. Suppose when they called Johnson to testify before the committee he had refused
That would not be contempt within the period Parliament agreed for onvestigation, but to me it would be clear contempt and should incur a penalty. This leads me to the view that all actions up to the point of publication of the final report could also be valid inatances of xontempt.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 03:46 PM

Dave the Gnome: It is only because he was using parliamentary privilege that he got away with his defamation of the committee.

I was not aware that he had made the claims within the debating chamber of Parliament.
Comments made elsewhere do not benefit from 'parliamentary privilege'.

And, of course, it is only 'defamation' if it is untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 03:19 PM

But Nigel, the sanctions are not being increased due to anything Bozo has said since.

per the committee: Motions arising from reports from this Committee are debatable and amendable. The Committee had provisionally concluded that Mr Johnson deliberately misled the House and should be sanctioned for it by being suspended for a period that would trigger the provisions of the Recall of MPs Act 2015. In light of Mr Johnson’s conduct in committing a further contempt on 9 June 2023, the Committee Matter referred on 21 April 2022 (conduct of Rt Hon Boris Johnson): Final Report 7 now considers that if Mr Johnson were still a Member he should be suspended from the service of the House for 90 days for repeated contempts and for seeking to undermine the parliamentary process,
Motions arising from reports from this Committee are
debatable and amendable. The Committee had provisionally concluded that Mr Johnson deliberately misled the House and should be sanctioned for it by being suspended for a period that would trigger the provisions of the Recall of MPs Act 2015. In light of Mr Johnson’s conduct in committing a further contempt on 9 June 2023, the Committee
Matter referred on 21 April 2022 (conduct of Rt Hon Boris Johnson): Final Report 7 now considers that if Mr Johnson were still a Member he should be suspended from the service of the House for 90 days for repeated contempts and for seeking to undermine the parliamentary process,
That certainly reads to me that the committee was looking for a 10 day suspension (enough to allow a recall petition) but has now increased it to 90 days just because its judgement has been called into question!

You, of course, may read that differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 10:31 AM

The Committee is an arm of Parliament. It can't enforce any sanctions. That can only happen if the Commons approves its findings (and let's not forget that the Commons has a thumping Tory majority). His behaviour towards the Committee could be judged as having been in contempt of the Committee, by extension contempt of Parliament itself. It would be unconscionable were he to be able to say whatever he liked about the Committee, no holding back, with no sanction available. By saying what he's said, he is holding the electorate in contempt and he is attempting to undermine democracy. It's as bad as that, Nigel. In any case, the Commons has the power to amend the report's suggested sanctions or to reject it altogether. I've done a fair bit of googling and, so far, I've seen the "beyond remit" argument put only by Johnson and a few of his backwoods allies - and you! Your googling may differ, and probably does... but be careful who you side with!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 10:20 AM

Re "inside the tent pissing out", I wish to correct the record*: the little offender has found an even higher place to stand on while pissing inward. Whether this displays Olympian detachment (strictly in the sense of "passing judgement from a sufficiently great height that there's no splashback") is yet to be determined.

* Ahem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 08:57 AM

But Nigel, the sanctions are not being increased due to anything Bozo has said since. In fact, seeing as he has run away, they are not going to be applied at all. He is lucky he said what he did about the committee before he chucked the towel in. It is only because he was using parliamentary privilege that he got away with his defamation of the committee.

I suppose you also think that Trump won the last presidential election and that he should get away with his lies too?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 08:44 AM

In what way were they working outside their remit?

You quote their remit in general, but include that it is to only consider matters referred to it by the House of Commons as a whole.
The committee was due to decide on the historical actions and speech of Boris. On 21 April 2022, the House of Commons, without division, referred to the Committee of Privileges a matter concerning the conduct of the Rt Hon Boris Johnson MP, the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip, that is, whether he had misled the House and whether that conduct amounted to a contempt. From Here. Their latest actions appear to be outside this remit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 08:08 AM

Yes, Nigel. Boris reckons the parliamentary privilege committee should be there to make sure he remains privileged. The actual remit of the committee, as stated on the UK parliament website is -

"The Committee of Privileges is tasked with the investigation of potential contempts and breaches of privilege, as well as considering wider matters relating to parliamentary privilege from time to time, as instructed by the House. The Committee can only consider matters referred to it by the House of Commons as a whole. It reports to the House its conclusions on whether a contempt or a breach of privileges has occurred and its recommendations on any sanctions – final decisions on these matters also have to be taken by the House as a whole."

They were instructed by the house. They investigated contempts and breaches of privilege. In what way were they working outside their remit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 05:59 AM

For all those cheering on the sanctions (not yet applied, the committee didn't have that power) it is worth noting that Boris claims they were working outside their remit.
Since he made that claim BBC News (among others) have carried the story:
The committee said the initial proposed sanction was increased "in light of Mr Johnson's conduct" in recent days - including breaching confidentiality rules and "being complicit in the campaign of abuse and attempted intimidation of the committee".

Mr Johnson's statement was "completely unacceptable", they said.

Surely increasing the proposed sanction based on anything other than 'Partygate' and Boris comments at the dispatch box is also outside their remit. They seem to be proving Boris' point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 04:25 AM

I hadn't thought of that possibility. The report of a Commons committee has to be ratified by the House. Can that happen without a vote, and how would a decision to bypass a vote be agreed on?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jun 23 - 02:30 AM

That is only true, Steve, if it is forced to a vote, whereaa it seems the plan of the Johnson supporters ia to let it pass without a vote. That way they do not actually record if they were for, against or would abstain.

I think it worth sacrificing a vote or two in favour to force a vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 07:04 PM

The Monday vote will be a damp squib in terms of what will be its lack of sensationalism. However, many a Tory MP will feel a tad awkward about explaining to their constituents why they voted for/against/chickened out. And Risky Sumach simply won't be able to do the Right Thing whatever he decides. Poor chap. Poor chap of his own making.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 04:40 PM

Or, maybe to quote more Python. "He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy" :-)

Jonathan Pye nails it again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 12:57 PM

Last Night on "Newsnight" , Brendan Clarke-Smith was very clear he was voting against the report.

By all accounts, 24 hours later, he and 6 other MPs who were proclaiming
yesterday that they would vote it, have apparently decided to abstain.

All together now "Brave Sir Robin":

rave Sir Robin ran away,
Bravely ran away, away.
When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly, he chickened out. Bravely taking to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 07:33 AM

Good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 06:52 AM

I've heard it said in this last week that the Tories tend to fall apart after a decade in power. Examples: the end of SuperMac in the early 1960s ("thirteen years of Tory misrule"; Alec Douglas-Home provided the codicil); the end of Maggie Hatchett's reign (codicil: John Major); and now de Pfeffel's clown show (codicil: Sunak). That's not to say Labour don't also suffer from this (eg the Blaire/Brown years).

This methinks is ultimately a result of First Past the Post: each major party is itself effectively a coalition. Once any coalition has been in power for long enough, the tail ends up wagging the dog, and the coalition falls apart. In the UK, unlike under Proportional Representation, they can't then regroup with a different set of partners.

So: each major party can do one of two things: run the country, or combat its internal fragmentation. And *that*, mesdames et messieurs, is why each party needs a long time out of power for its headbangers to cool their heels.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 04:45 AM

The Peter Oborne piece on Double Down News about Johnson’s venality, dishonesty, and incompetence is well worth a watch - all the more so coming, as it does, from a former Tory supporting journalist…

Peter Oborne’s Johnson put-down

Sadly, I still keep hearing from his local supporters that Johnson’s ‘a great bloke’, that he ‘did a brilliant job’ as PM, and that ‘he’ll be back’.

God help us!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Jun 23 - 04:43 AM

Sunak did announce that johnson would not be eligible for reselection by his party, so the only way he could return to parliament would be through standing as an independent or for another right wing party.

As that would mean that he would never advance from the back benches I don't think that would be good enough for his ego to cope with.

of course that could all change is the tories were to abandon Sunak.

What would be important is that if he is every re-elected to the house of commons the 90 day sanction would still apply, so effectively whatever constituency they would be unrepresented for quite a long time.

I will be listening, with interest, how tory MPs will vote on the report.

Those who vote for it risk alienating the extreme right factions, not just in the house, but also in their local membership who no doubt still adore johnson.

Those who vote against would be seen as wanting to uphold their right to use their power in anyway they see fit and not be held accountable for abusing their privileged position.

Abstaining would come across as having no interest whatsoever in the conduct of MPs and ministers which would be just as bad as voting against the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 04:45 PM

Interesting point from Politico

"A sanction from the committee that Johnson then effectively ducks does hand some political ammunition to anyone wanting to keep him down.

While the committee can’t recommend any punishments that apply in perpetuity, if Johnson does re-emerge as an MP, a future government could opt to dredge the whole affair up again by arguing he never did his time."

So, effectively, because he stood down and was never sanctioned, it can be argued that the sanctions could be applied if he re-enters government! Hoisted by his own petard (I hope) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 03:59 PM

You could be right there, Rain Dog. I was going from what I heard a BBC news channel correspondent say this morning. I'll try to never believe what I'm told!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 01:31 PM

No, DtG, it's Kool-Aid, not Covid.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 01:29 PM

> I don't think they said he cannot stand as an MP again

Whether he can or not, "inside the tent pissing out" doesn't apply to de Pfeffel, because he tends to, shall we say, pass judgement from a great height indiscriminately, on anybody and everybody. The only advantage of him being barred from the Commons is that he wouldn't be able to (ab)use Parliamentary privilege when doing so. Loose cannons do not belong on the decks of the ship of state.

Ay well. Perhaps now he'll discover what happens to a man who pisses into the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 01:15 PM

Just been watching TV where a bunch of idiots who still support him are coming out with the usual mindless bollocks. Has covid had a serious impact on the mental health of voters here and in the US or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 09:41 AM

Well, would have been worse if Jeremy Corbyn was prime minister. At least we are not supplying arms to Russia and inviting terrorists to run the country... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 09:26 AM

"4. was deliberately disingenuous when he tried to reinterpret his statements to the House to avoid their plain meaning and reframe the clear impression that he intended to give, namely i) when he advanced unsustainable interpretations of the rules and guidance to advance the argument that the lack of social distancing at gatherings was permissible within the exceptions which allowed for gatherings, and ii) when he advanced legally impermissible reasons to justify the gatherings."

Seems pretty deliberate to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 09:25 AM

By 'summaries' I of course mean the direct quotations from the report where the committee summarised its findings. I don't mean general opinion pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 09:22 AM

You have read some of the summaries, I take it, StanRon? They leave no doubt in my mind the committee thought it deliberate.

I am otherwise tied up today and tomorrow, but I do intend to plough through the whole report in the next few days.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 09:12 AM

Don't forget that one of the first things the committee did was to change it's remit by removing the word 'deliberately' from 'deliberately misleading Parliament'. If it becomes evident that they did this specifically to be able to find him guilty then perhaps the Committee itself should be investigated for Contempt of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 08:17 AM

Assuming the report is passed by the House of Commons on Monday, there MUST be a recall petition. Even if Johnson has resigned, the electorate MUST still have the right to remove the lying piece of trash in disgrace. If the Hillingdon electoral office refuse to do this this proves that they are receiving bungs from the tory party.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump INDICTED AGAIN (NO new Trmp threads) 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 07:24 AM

"Johnson is banned from Westminster for life."

Are you sure about that? I don't think they said he cannot stand as an MP again, unlikely as that may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump INDICTED AGAIN (NO new Trmp threads) 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 07:08 AM

I'll swear I put that apostrophe in there. To he'll with spellcheckers...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump INDICTED AGAIN (NO new Trmp threads) 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 07:06 AM

Strange, or not so strange, how these two men show the same behaviour. Try to sidestep democratic conventions. Break the rules, break the law. Lie in your teeth. Deny all responsibility. Blame others for their downfall in torrid terms. Accuse opponents of running a witch hunt. They are both a serious threat to democracy. As long as the Commons accepts the committee report, which I think it will, Johnson is banned from Westminster for life. He will never again be an MP or prime minister. Of course, whatever we achieve against him, he will always be able to snipe from the sidelines, and the right-wing press (which is nearly all our press) will always afford him the publicity he craves. You'll never rid yourself of Trump for the same reasons, but he seriously needs to be permanently sidelined and never allowed to participate in mainstream politics again. I don't think you can rely on either the Republican Party or the electors to do that. I can hardly say watch and learn as it ain't over until the fat man swings (metaphorically), and the wheels of change grind too slowly. But, once the Trump saga is over (hopefully), the US has to have a serious think about how to stop the kinds of threats to democracy perpetrated by Trump. Its not just a US issue. It's a world issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 06:30 AM

Tory arse-licking twats still defending the proven Liar Johnson on BBC News this morning. They really are a bunch of cocks - high time for a General Election.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump INDICTED AGAIN (NO new Trmp threads) 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 06:24 AM

Predictably Trumpian-style responses from The Liar Johnson to the findings of the committee - despite there being a Tory majority on said committee. What a cock.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump INDICTED AGAIN (NO new Trmp threads) 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 05:46 AM

Let's just hold our breath for a bit to see if the House of Commins corroborates the committee's report...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 05:28 AM

From the Sky News site

"A parliamentary inquiry has concluded that Boris Johnson knowingly misled parliament multiple times with his statements about parties in Downing Street during the COVID pandemic.

The privileges committee of MPs found Mr Johnson's breaches serious enough to recommend a suspension of 90 days if he were still an MP - far exceeding the period needed to trigger a recall petition and possible by-election.

In the highly anticipated report, published this morning, the committee found that Mr Johnson:

• Misled the house on multiple occasions

• Committed further contempt in his conduct by impugning the committee - thereby undermining the democratic process of the House

• Was complicit in the campaign of abuse and attempted intimidation of the committee

In a further sanction, the committee also recommended that Mr Johnson should not be granted a former member's pass to parliament following his resignation as an MP. "

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 04:54 AM

The Partygate report has landed with an almighty (and appropriately-coloured) splat.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jun 23 - 04:51 AM

Here is a copy of something I have posted elsewhere.

if Mr Johnson were still a Member he should be suspended from the service of the House for 90 days for repeated contempts and for seeking to undermine the parliamentary process, by:
...

d) Impugning the Committee and thereby undermining the democratic process of the House"

Well, Sir Michael Fabricant, consider yourself on notice if you keep implying the committee is biased. Ditto Sir Jacob and the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Jun 23 - 05:19 PM

UKRI have announced that they will be rolling over continued funding for research projects previously funded by RU Horizons.

As usual, the devil is in the detail...

(1) Will the extent of funding be the same as it would have been if we were still part of Horizons

(2) Will the tax payer be picking up the tab, or will this all come out of the £350 million/week promised to the NHS?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jun 23 - 01:43 PM

The plain unvarnished truth about Johnson - from the ‘I See You’ Facebook Page. Well worth a read…

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 05:36 PM

”Nicola Sturgeon?”

Well, until the facts are made public (assuming they are), I’ll have to grant you that one, Nigel. But don’t laugh too loud or too long… ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 01:57 PM

The LibDems gave us Cameron. Cameron gave us brexit. The LibDems are nothing but opportunist scumbags. I have to vote for them every time to try to keep the Tories out.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 12:34 PM

There doesn’t seem to be much for Tory supporters to laugh at just now, does there?

Nicola Sturgeon?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 11:46 AM

”I'm glad the attempt at humour wasn't wasted. ;)”

The pleasure’s all mine, Nigel. There doesn’t seem to be much for Tory supporters to laugh at just now, does there? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 11:20 AM

However, I still don't think the that 5he Liberal party gave us the SDLP.

My mistake (both in initialisation & party history)
I was thinking of the SDP which was formed by a faction of the Labour Party. I must have been thrown off by their later alliance with the Liberal Party to form the Liberal Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 10:52 AM

Forget what I just said! Sometimes I need to get my brain into gear. It was the SDP, not the SDLP.

However, I still don't think the that 5he Liberal party gave us the SDLP.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 10:44 AM

The Liberal party gave us the SDLP & the Lib Dems

No! The Labour party gave us the SDLP. The SDLP and the Liberal party gave us the Lib Dems.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 10:03 AM

I'm glad the attempt at humour wasn't wasted. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 07:10 AM

”The BJ Party”

The Blow Job Party? How very appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Jun 23 - 06:22 AM

The Liberal party gave us the SDLP & the Lib Dems.
Labour gave us 'New Labour'.
Now it's the turn for the Conservatives. A new party based on the conservative (and other) values of an ex PM:

The BJ Party