BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 06:12 PM

Now get this. From the Guardian:

Members of the public watching the coronation on television, online and in parks and pubs will be invited to swear aloud their allegiance to the monarch in a “chorus of millions of voices” to be known as the Homage of the People.

People around the UK and abroad will be invited to say the words “I swear that I will pay true allegiance to your majesty, and to your heirs and successors according to law. So help me God”, in a declaration that replaces the traditional homage of peers.

Well I'll be swearing all right, but not in the manner suggested.

I'm expected to declare allegiance to a man who conducts Beethoven in front of his bedroom mirror, who talks to his houseplants, who enthusiastically embraces the fake science of homeopathy, who pays no tax on his vast estates, who cheated on his bride-to-be, Diana, in a railway siding with Camilla on his stag night (he even said he wanted to be her tampon on another occasion), who colludes in the ecological devastation of tens of thousands of acres of Scottish moorland by maintaining them for silly birds for toffs to shoot at, and who sits on his billions by virtue of the royal connection with the slave trade.

Well you declare if you want to. I might have to put you in the same bracket as brexit voters if you do. But it's a free country.   

Christ on a bloody bike...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 04:53 PM

"What you don't have is Constitutionally guaranteed free speech. Nor does France. Defamation is much easier to prove in Europe. Saying some things in Europe is a crime. You may be aware of the problems and controversy of true free speech but you do not feel it alive in your soul in the way Americans can."

You may well try bravely to add clarity to this, Maggie, but it's just nonsense. In this country, and as far as I know in most EU countries, you may freely say what you like as long as it's not hate speech, speech that puts people in danger or speech that's intended to inflame riots, etc. King Charles is a bloody idiot who cheated on his wife with the woman who is now to be our queen, Boris Johnson is a complete buffoon, our Home Secretary is a racist thug. I can say all those things without fear of reprisal, because I've said nothing illegal. It does not mean that they are all true, but they are not illegal. I would imagine that a lot of Brits would wish I hadn't said one or two of those things. I can't really go much further, but I wouldn't want to, and I believe that most Brits would be with me on that. We've had Holocaust deniers here who have been silenced for going public. Only a fool or a fascist would quarrel with that, and we do get such people. No, they are not within their rights to spout that hateful stuff and, if unfettered free speech would allow them to spout it, then I for one don't want unfettered free speech.

I'm afraid that attempts by Americans to laud their right to free speech impresses me just about as much as does their right to carry guns in the street. It's nothing to be particularly proud of, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 02:36 PM

”Don't blame the moderators.”

Perhaps I’m missing something, but I haven’t seen anyone ‘blaming the moderators’, Nigel. Perhaps you’d be good enough to point us to where anyone has ‘blamed the moderators’?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 02:19 PM

Donuel: What you don't have is Constitutionally guaranteed free speech.

You're quite right. We don't have 'Constitutionally guaranteed free speech' in part because we don't have, or need, a 'constitution'.

In Europe, or the EU if you prefer, the situation is that something is illegal unless it is specifically permitted.
In UK anything is permitted unless it is specifically banned.

I hope that you can understand this basic difference, and understand how it applies to American law.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 02:13 PM

Yes, this has been amalgamated within the single 'UK Politics' thread, and I will hold my hand up to having made the request.
It was political right from the start, even if it is the 'politics of envy'.

Don't blame the moderators.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 12:07 PM

Trump viewed his inauguration as a coronation, and he did his best to hold the seat even after unelected four years later. Coups are something we hear about when heads of state are toppled, royal or elected. He tried it, and hopefully charges later this year will confirm it.

One of the people who was in charge of the inauguration was a friend (she thought) of Melania's and was appalled at how millions were being misdirected. And she kept the receipts. In the end there weren't charges filed but some of the Trump folks and their friends paid hefty fees, though not nearly as much as they were able to pocket from the hundreds of millions raised through private donations toward the event.

I bring this up to add clarity to Don's remarks and to note that perhaps that is a management plan your royals could adopt.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 11:33 AM

A post appeared on my facebook ...asking for suggestions for songs to be sung at Charlies Coronation....... I put 'Your Cheatin Heart'.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 07:11 AM

Millions will be proud or ashamed. You may as well enjoy the ride of an ancient political concert Spectacular.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 06:18 AM

We are talking about billionaires taking money from poor people, Doug. There's probably something about that in the New Testament.

We are living in very hard times for millions of people. This is not a presidential election. This is the crowning of an unelected billionaire in a ceremony that is designed by the establishment to keep the poor Brits loyal and flag-waving. Naturally, the BBC and most of the press collude. Do try to see it for what it is, and reflect on the sheer waste of that hundred million. The Yorkshire school in which my sister worked until recently is falling down round the kids' ears.

Incidentally, in real terms this bash is costing approximately double what the last coronation cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 05:54 AM

The coronation is going to cost around £100 million

In the 18th century there were four coronations, three in the 19th century, and four in the 20th. It is likely that there will be no more than four this century. Taking the Irish model of electing a president for a seven year term, this gives 14 elections in 100 years.

The Electoral Commission gives the cost of the 2016 Brexit referendum as £129 million. The 2015 UK general election cost around £115 million. This should allow a reasonable estimate of the cost of a presidential election to be made. This is without the pomp and ceremony of inauguration.

Some of the presidents could be returned unopposed, which would reduce costs, but even a lavish coronation would seem to be value for money when it comes to choosing a head of state.

Every UK taxpayer pays £2.40 every year towards the upkeep of the royals

The office of President doesn't come without running costs. There will still be the need for security, posh limmos, state banquets, foreign trips to represent the country, pensions for life after leaving office, etc.

It would be interesting to know how many elected heads of state leave office poorer than when they went in.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 04:43 AM

My opening post did say taxpayer. If you're OK with taxpayers who have to resort to food banks (I know at least one, a full-time teacher) handing over money to keep billionaires in the manner to which they're accustomed, then I'm not with you. It's the principle, not the amount.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: G-Force
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 03:33 AM

£2.40 a year? And that's per taxpayer, not per person. Good value IMHO. Or abolish the monarchy and save less than the cost of half a pint? Why bother,

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 23 - 03:04 AM

A polite reminder - the topic of the thread is THE CORONATION.

As it will be an event of historical and, perhaps, social significance for the United Kingdom, and possibly the last coronation to take place in my lifetime, I will probably watch it on TV. I remember watching the queen’s coronation on my gran’s 10” B&W TV back in ‘53 (we were too poor to be able to afford a TV back then), and it will be interesting to see how things have changed, both in terms of the ceremony itself, and in the TV presentation.

But, as an institution, I believe the Royal Family is well past its sell-by date, and it’s high time the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland became a republic, with a non-political, elected President on the lines of the Irish model. I would also prefer to see the unification of Ireland and NI, but I very much doubt that will happen in what’s left of my lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 11:43 PM

What you don't have is Constitutionally guaranteed free speech. Nor does France. Defamation is much easier to prove in Europe. Saying some things in Europe is a crime. You may be aware of the problems and controversy of true free speech but you do not feel it alive in your soul in the way Americans can. The recent trials against Murdoch and Jones are rare here. I wish I could say that without constitutionally guaranteed free speech Europe is better protected from lies. Be it deep fakes or AI. there are better lies coming than the defense of the truth.
That is why I suspect there will be new laws pertaining to new forms of speech and music. It is a brave new world.

Music AI hybrids are already here. Its been done with Drake.
I would like to AI combine Raval and Debussy.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 07:01 PM

No you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 06:43 PM

We have an Inaugcorination of our own every 4 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 12:51 PM

Preferably on a remote desert island. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Coronation
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 12:39 PM

The king should live of his own.

Subject: BS: Coronation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 23 - 12:02 PM

Just a fact or two from me strictly without comment.

The coronation is going to cost around £100 million (probably a conservative estimate).

It will be paid for by British taxpayers.

Charles is worth around £1.8 billion.

Charles did not pay a single penny in inheritance tax on the vast wealth (hundreds of millions) that he inherited from his mother. The royals do not pay corporation tax on their major holdings such as the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall.

The jewellery that Charles inherited from his mother is worth over half a billion pounds. Charles has a personal fleet of luxury cars worth six million pounds.

Every UK taxpayer pays £2.40 every year towards the upkeep of the royals, despite their vast wealth.

Millions of UK citizens are facing massive inflation, the inability to heat their homes and are struggling to put decent food on the table unless they regularly visit food banks. At least some of them will be paying some taxes to pay for the coronation and the upkeep of the royals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 23 - 05:23 PM

I see what you did there... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 23 - 06:58 AM

I realised that it was the wrong word a millisecond after I'd hit send. I was hoping I'd get away with it.

Ah, a sort of Abbott moment ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 03:37 PM

Cheers, Nigel. I realised that it was the wrong word a millisecond after I'd hit send. I was hoping I'd get away with it. I could have said unconditionally, unreservedly or something else. I haven't been well, you know. See declutter thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 03:31 PM

Steve.
You picked up recently on my misuse of 'alternately'.
You may wish to check the dictionary for 'fulsomely'
retracted her remarks and apologised properly and fulsomely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 03:27 PM

My full stop after "press" got lost!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 03:26 PM

Not wise indeed, not wise because he's too weak to take it on. The Tory press will have a field day with this in any case. Like I said, he wants a leftie-free centre-right party. And he wants that because of that Tory press this guy is a follower, not a leader. Don't mention socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 01:49 PM

Starmer knows what the Conservative press did to Labour last time the anti-Semitism row got going, and he knows how long it lasted. I know several people who normally voted Labour who got into a 'no smoke without fire' mindset, thanks to the intensive attack the party was on the receiving end of.

I think he had no choice unless he was prepared to go through that again. I suppose, to be strictly accurate, he could have chosen to do that. It would not have been wise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 01:35 PM

Diane Abbott story per the Independent

Or, if you prefer, The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 01:15 PM

Of course he had choice. You might not agree with some of her points but she made them in a measured manner. The mistake she made was deciding to send it off. And she one hundred percent retracted her remarks and apologised properly and fulsomely. The choice he has long made is to look for the very slightest chinks in the leftwingers' behaviour then pounce. He wants the party to be centre-right with no exceptions allowed. Whatever you say, never say socialist. I think he's making a big mistake. He's not strong enough to be doing this sort of thing to Labour and it will come back to bite him on the arse (though they'll have to remove the splinters from it first following his fence-sitting over second referendums, etc.). I had a phone call from a Labour apparatchik the other day, asking me among other things for a donation. I told her I'd probably send one, but not any more I won't. I think they'll soon be losing my membership fee as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 12:55 PM

Aye, guess you are right DMcG. Sadly Corbyn didn't stand up to the antisemitism accusations and I suppose the Labour Party will now have to live with it forever

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 12:12 PM

I am afraid Dianne Abbott gave him no choice when she decided to re-open the anti-Semitism door.   A moment's reflection would have enabled her to make her point in the letter without that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 12:09 PM

Before the plonk damage is done, I suspect that the test will be declared a resounding success. Much like Musk's rocket ;-) Anyone know who's pockets it has lined yet?

And back to politics, I see that Diane Abbott has been suspended. Is there no end to Sir Keith's push to the right?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 12:01 PM

...don't expect much sense out of me later :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 12:01 PM

BTW Steve, I just got 2 new Puglia wines from Lidl. A Fiano, which Mrs G and I just sampled (very nice too) and a Negroamaro (should there be a space in there?) Rosata which I am about to sample. I don't usually do pinks but I am willing to suffer in the name of scientific experiment.

Oooooh. It is lovely. Will go very well with the Lidl sourdough pizza.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 11:50 AM

I have just got my first election leaflet through, apart form one for Labour.

This is just text on cream paper in the style of a letter, with the guy's name and it looks for all the world like something from an independent. There is no logo, no reference to a head office, no photos with the great and good, a simple, almost naive layout and so on.

It is almost as if he did not want to admit he was standing for the Conservatives, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 11:46 AM

Just been informed by my lad that his alarm was the same as Mrs Gs.

I have been short changed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 11:28 AM

Mrs G got one just before 3 and I got a different one 5 minutes later!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 10:47 AM

Looks like I'm not alone. Twitter is full of reports from non-alertees. I like this one:

"So it seems like UK citizens living in rural locations have been abandoned... No #emergencyalert for us. I guess in the event of an actual emergency we're just supposed to look out for city folk running towards us or something..."

My theory is that they'd put Liz Truss in charge of alerts...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 23 - 10:14 AM

So eleven minutes ago I was supposed to get an alert. Well where is It? Or is the government deliberately not alerting lefties so as to put them in danger and eliminate their anti-Tory votes?!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 12:32 PM

It has just struck me that, apart from Chris Skidmore, all of the authors of "Britannia Unchained" have reached one of the top offices in the land, and every one of them has proven to be incompetent.

Skidmore has done ok for himself so far, but not reached the heights the others have.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 10:35 AM

Probably resigned so that Sunak doesn't have to make a decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 09:41 AM

News of the Hour: Raab has sent in a resignation letter. The nature of the letter is exercising the chattering classes summat wonderful, but I'd summarise it as *tantrum*.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 08:25 AM

Well bugger me if I'm not going to call him that from now on!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 05:07 AM

Did you realise that the anagram of Rishi Sunak is hi risk anus?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 03:38 AM

Milan Kundera refers to crossing the border (the line) and suggests that a border is never crossed but moved.

if Sunak moves the line rather than take action against Raab for crossing the line, this means a change in the future as what is and isn't considered acceptable behaviour.

This would be consistent with the change in which the political left, right and centre has changed over the last 13 years where the right is considered centrist politics, and even right of centre is labelled as left wing, centrist as borderline far left, and left of centre extreme left. In politics, boundaries are not crossed but moved.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 23 - 02:42 AM

So what are your thoughts on why the decision on Raab is taking so long?

There is a certain type of manager who essentially confirms and authorises what others have recommended. They will commission reports and act on the conclusions. They will hold a meeting and accept the conclusion. That's not a bad way of running things. It is certainly better than assuming you know everything and everyone is just there to do your will.

But this time it appears the remit of the report was only to obtain the facts, not to draw any conclusions. Which means that, whatever Sunak decides, he is wholly responsible for. All attacks on the decision will be attacks on him personally, which cannot be diverted into 'this is what the committee as a whole' decided. He owns it all.

My biggest concern if he decides Raab is not to be punished is that the report will become a handbook in Whitehall and possibly elsewhere, of how far you can go in threatening an employee without it crossing the line into bullying.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 12:34 PM

…and thank you for the birthday greeting! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 12:34 PM

Not in my case, RD - I drop it in at our local Guildhall when I’m out at the shops (the Guildhall is in our small retail park). But yes, you have a point otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Rain Dog
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 12:20 PM

"Easy-peasy, no photo ID required, and no having to go out in whatever weather to queue at a polling station. Way to go, IMHO."

But that does rely on Royal Mail delivering your vote on time and to the correct place. That cannot be taken for granted these days.

Happy Birthday by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 11:58 AM

As it’s my birthday, I’d made myself a promise that I’d stay well clear of the Mudcat-madhouse but, before I go out with Mrs Backwoodsperson for my posh birthday dinner, I’ll just say that I’ve voted by post since, I think, the 2016 GE. Easy-peasy, no photo ID required, and no having to go out in whatever weather to queue at a polling station. Way to go, IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Apr 23 - 09:04 AM

The deadline for applying for voter ID is 9 days before the local government elections, so if the polling officer is not satisfied that a passport or driving licence picture is not a satisfactory likeness, yuo can in theory lose your right to vote for not getting a new passport before each election.

This can be overcome by installing the same e-gate technology at polling stations as in airports - wasting billions on this is better than a single voter being turned away.

Alternatively, polling stations need to open at least ten days before elections so anyone whose appearance appears 'wrong' can get a voter ID card in time. This would, of course mean closing some schools for two weeks, but better that than denying people the right to vote.