BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 08:54 AM

Would I be correct to say that the Liberal Party and the Liberal Democrats are two entirely separate entities?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 08:47 AM

Anyone who pisses The Haunted Pencil, Haddock Face, and Mrs Foster off is alright in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 08:31 AM

Just piss off out of this thread. I tried to turn it back to the topic and here you are having a nice little troll. Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 08:16 AM

you can't fool all the people all the time which is why Steve and Dave don't impress me as the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 08:02 AM

Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Arlene Foster are all going into massive hissy fits because Ursula is meeting the King. Looks like someone's doing something right. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 07:47 AM

I always thought it was your Donuel and my Dick, Steve but it now seems you have a Donuel and a Dick. Commiserations

Sorry John. I can't help it at times :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 07:12 AM

Who let the children in?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 07:06 AM

Steve, what you do does not interest me, you are not of any importance to me whatsoever

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 05:31 AM

"The liberal party,is an abbreviation of the Lib Dem's"

Strange. "Liberal party" contains twelve letters whereas "Lib Dems" contained seven, yet the former is an "abbreviation" of the latter...?

Ps. Hope you don't mind about my removing your incorrect apostrophe... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 03:41 AM

Steve Shaw the voice of the lib dems

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 23 - 03:28 AM

Shaw
The liberal party,is an abbreviation of the Lib Dems, the Guardian is a lib Dem newspaper,

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 06:31 PM

I demand that Biden makes a grovelling written apology to me for allowing johnson (born is his country) to bring my country in disrepute.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 12:31 PM

Seems as though Johnson has opened his big mouth and put his foot in it once again…

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-biden-brexit-eu-deal-row-b2289792.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 10:40 AM

What's the "Liberal party?"

I have a feeling that Johnson is out to scupper Fishy Rishi so that he will get his job back once the election is lost. There could be a flaw in that strategy...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 09:20 AM

The Guardian, the voice of the Liberal party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 06:41 AM

I agree there are opportunities coming up and in the interests of the Conservative Party Sunak should take them. He really does have the chance to split the ERG and so consign it to oblivion.

But my expectation is he will not. It may happen some Brexiteers vote one way and some the other, but I think Sunak is more likely to sigh a breath of relief and move on, rather than take the change to really exert his authority over them and, for example, remove the whip from those who vote against him.

It will be interesting to see what Johnson does.

As you imply, Steve, I think there will be a strategy of presenting here on in as having turned a corner. But there are still Trusses and Johnsons and their supporters about, not to mention the DUP. Will power be restored in Stormont? We will see.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 23 - 06:31 AM

Toby Helm in the Guardian:

...senior Tory MPs – including many from the old Eurosceptic right of the party – are beginning to sense some hope under Rishi Sunak, at the very point the prime minister appears in greatest trouble, and believe a turning point could be approaching.

They say there are opportunities in the coming weeks for the prime minister to face down internal opponents and to assert his authority over – and define himself against – his trouble-causing predecessor but one, Boris Johnson.

The former Brexit secretary David Davis, who is critical of the way Johnson is kicking off about the Northern Ireland protocol deal that he negotiated at No 10, said: “I think that if Rishi Sunak gets an agreement on the protocol and that if the budget next month is less austere than is currently being telegraphed, then these could be the first signs that he is coming out of the storms. If that happens we would still have a one in three chance of winning the next election.”

An interesting week coming up. Starmer is no Blair...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 02:14 PM

He reminds me of Ramsay Macdonald
After 1931, MacDonald was repeatedly and bitterly denounced by the Labour movement as a traitor to its cause., IMO he was corrupted. Starmer is another quisling, who will be cast aside by the establishment after he has been used by them

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 01:23 PM

I don;t think any serious commentator expects the current gap between the parties to stay as wide as it is. Of course, the Conservatives will do all they can to narrow it.

But don't see whatever happens on Monday narrowing the gap.   Agreement or not, the divisions in the Conservative party are going to be exposed yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 12:00 PM

The economy is doing better than the OBR predicted. There could be a deal with the EU soon. He's dividing and ruling by talking to the nurses. The NHS has avoided total collapse over the winter. Fuel prices are gently subsiding.

Look out, Sir Keir. Your vote is soft, your inconsistencies are being talked up and events are coming to get you...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 11:40 AM

time for more people to grow their own, lettuces and tomatoesand cucumbers do not require large gardens to grow

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 10:48 AM

I am still working through Michel Barnier's book "My Secret Brexit Diary" which are his account of the events as seen from the EU perspective. I have just finished the section where May had reached agreement with the EU on the way forward, then the DUP refused to accept it and everything had to be thought out again (and again, and again...)

A prediction for Monday, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 08:06 AM

Simply not that simple sounds fine to me :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 07:03 AM

"simply not that simple". Oh dear.

"just more complex than that" perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Feb 23 - 07:00 AM

Here's two other failures of capitalism , especially free market capitalism, that I bang on about occasionally. Both are relevant to the current Turnip Troubles.

1. We over-value efficiency and under-value resilience.   With any complex system you can improve lots of its attributes at the same time when it is performing badly enough, but as you approach higher performance you have to start trading one off against the other. We have chosen that efficiency is what matters, and therefore end up with systems that are fragile. We introduce smart motorways to make them more efficient in terms of normal movement, at the cost of losing the resilience to drive past an obstruction so ending up with worse jams when jams occur. We cut an office staff down from 10, to 9, to 8 as people leave or are made redundant, and end up with an office that just can't do its job when one more person is sick or otherwise absent. We say that NHS pay rises must in part be funded by "efficiency improvements" with no thought on how that impact resilience of the NHS, which is effectively what the nurses and doctors are talking about with staff shortages and rota concerns. Free marketeers rail against 'protectionism' but that is often a way that a country becomes or retains resilience.

2. There is a well-worn maxim that "the market will provide" but that omits the caveats "but not necessarily rapidly enough to be of use to you or to avoid collapses, outages or whatever."   There is an assumption that we will simply be able to buy in whatever we wish, be it tomatoes or skills, and the world is simply not that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 23 - 07:55 PM

Apropos of these bloody tomato/cucumber/lettuce shortages:

I think that this situation illustrates perfectly the failure of capitalism. Let's have a look:

The growers in Spain, the Netherlands and Kent can't afford to heat their greenhouses.

They could afford to heat their greenhouses if the supermarkets were prepared to pay significantly higher prices for the produce.

But supermarkets won't do that, because they are in competition with other supermarkets. Not only that, the supermarkets have already driven down the prices they pay for produce to a point just above which the producers would squeal.

So let's suppose that supermarkets decide that we should have the produce, in order to keep the producers afloat, and because salads are healthy. Well that means they would have to put up their prices significantly. They won't do that, because, for decades, we have been paying very cheaply for our food, and it would take a massive shift in public thinking (especially in light of our energy bills) to change that mindset.

The failure of capitalism in a nutshell!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 23 - 06:32 PM

Here's a below-the-line comment on the Guardian website that, to me, is sublime in its measured wisdom:

I’m one of those regarded as ‘hard left’ but I’m not, I’m just someone like millions of others who adheres to the values of our founder, Keir Hardie.

Racism and prejudice are anathema to those values - it’s one of the main reasons I was attracted to the Labour Party long before I could even vote.

In all that time, over half a century, I’ve never come across racism in any of the countless interactions I’ve had at either local or national level. I have, however, experienced high levels of horror when labour colleagues have encountered it outside the party.

The right wing media spent a fortune on the character assassination of Corbyn and following his inevitable fall he wasn’t supported by the party.

This was deeply wrong and has ostracised huge numbers of us, including the young who had been brought back into the party.

The Labour Party has historically been a broad church, a tolerant, socialist party.

It’s not factionalism we need, it’s unity - we need to set this divided nation an example and begin the process of social change.

We need, once again, to focus on our basic socialist values, not do the opposite and treat socialism as a dirty word…

…it’s the cleanest word we have.

Alleluia.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 23 - 09:44 AM

Have a big uptick from me!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: weerover
Date: 23 Feb 23 - 09:10 AM

Starmer declared at his party conference 5 months ago, "We are a party of the centre". So why is the word "Labour" even there?

wr

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 23 - 07:20 AM

Well what a terrible performance by Starmer on the Today programme this morning. Him and his "five missions," fer chrissake. I notice that he's refrained from calling them "pledges," as he knows, we know, and as Amol Rajan certainly knew, that he routinely breaks pledges. He clearly went into the interview determined to bluster his way through the twenty minutes, all big talk but almost entirely without the substance we need in order to understand how he intends to do his "missions." Amol brilliantly pinned him down several times (with very few words), which merely brought on more explosions of bullshit. Notably, Starmer blamed the pandemic and Putin for the fact that he's had to ditch his pledges, but even more notably he lacked the courage to point to the one real thing that is scuppering this country and which is already scuppering his Big Plans, brexit (of course!).

Maybe his Big Speech today will shed more light. I'm predicting that it won't, not much, and that it will be a litany of impossible aspirations. Let's see.

The more I see and hear him, the less confidence I have that he will win the next election.   His ditched pledges, his twists and turns and his inconsistencies, as well as his inability to put clear blue water between him and the Tories (which he could do by promising to negotiate a return to the single market and customs union, the arguments for which are now almost unassailable) will give the the Tories and their media friends a really easy target. All Fishy Rishi has to do is get that protocol sorted and avoid mistakes...

God, I'm miserable...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Feb 23 - 06:51 PM

From the Guardian.

Plans to cut the asylum backlog by sending questionnaires to refugees instead of conducting official interviews will demand that claimants reply in English within 20 working days or risk refusal, a leaked document shows.

The Home Office will on Thursday begin sending out copies of the 11-page document to about 12,000 people from Afghanistan, Eritrea, Libya, Syria and Yemen as part of Rishi Sunak’s plans to cut the “legacy backlog” of 92,000 asylum claims.

The move is meant to speed up the process by which claims are processed so that people can be either given leave to remain in the UK or removed.

But the questionnaire, seen by the Guardian, asks more than 50 complicated questions that it says “must be completed in English” and suggests using “online translation tools” if necessary.

It goes on to say that a failure to return the document within 20 working days “may result in an individual’s asylum claim being withdrawn”.

The deadline has dismayed legal experts who say it places unreasonable demands on vulnerable people who will not be able to seek legal advice on time.

Questions that may have to be translated online into languages such as Pashto, or one of the nine official languages of Eritrea, by claimants include: “If you do fear officials in your country, is it possible to email or telephone family members or friends in your country of origin to request [identity documents] without placing yourself or them at risk?”

Another question asks: “Were you subject to human trafficking (the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of people through force, fraud or deception, with the aim of exploiting them for profit) or modern slavery (severe exploitation of other people for personal or commercial gain) during your journey to or after you arrived in the UK?”

Well done, Suella. Another fine example of your sheer humanity.

I could bloody weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 08:02 AM

Many - most? - Leave voters didn’t have a f***ing clue about the reality of what they were voting for, what the real driving-force behind the ‘Leave’ Campaign was - tax avoidance for the rich, the removal of workers’ rights and human rights, the destruction of the Trade Unions, the privatisation of the NHS, the empowerment of big business, the further enrichment of the already immensely wealthy. All happening right now.

They fell for the propaganda, the three-word slogans, the Big-Red-Bus-Bollocks, the ‘Vote Leave’ Big Lies that foreigners were (and still are) the problem, that ‘we’ had no control over our laws (they never meant the real ‘we’, the people, they meant themselves), and, the Biggest Lie of All, that by Leaving the EU the UK would somehow regain the ‘sovereignty’ that they claimed had been surrendered to the EU.

All absolute horse-shit. Never have so many been lied to and brainwashed by so few.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 07:19 AM

Back has to meanings - back as in ownership, and back as in time, so they have achieved the latter and took us, back to Victorian inequality, back to 1970s/80s inflation, back to open racism..... Need I go on?

Looks like leave voters didn't understand homonyms, and thought they were voting for the former and were promised the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 07:06 AM

But, but, but…”We took are cuntry back”, wibble, dribble, drool.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 06:52 AM

it is amazing how the leavers decided that free trade, cooperation and joint prosperity are a bad idea when it comes to Europe, but then realising that they need free trade and cooperation with other countries for much less prosperity, even to the extent of being less prosperity than we were benefiting from through cross European deals with other countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 04:04 AM

The EU is not an empire. It was that sort of thinking that caused brexit.

Empire

1. An extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state.
"the Roman Empire"

2. A large commercial organization owned or controlled by one person or group.
"her business empire grew"

The EU is governed by representatives of its member states and is primarily an organisation dedicated to free trade and peaceful unity. Its member states have self governance and, as we know, can leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 03:15 AM

independence meansamongst other things not being part of an empire.
Scotland would not be independent if it joined europe.
scottish independence in the true sense of the word would be a disaster for scotland england and wales
scotland leaving the uk and joining europe would not be disastrous for scotland but would be for england, and would create a lot more bureaucracy., and a long term conservative english government, another disaster

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 05:01 PM

You're setting the bar far too high for independence, Dick. I mean, what country on earth is truly independent of all other countries? Even if a country is not bound by formal treaties or is not part of a bloc, it still depends on trade with other countries (there may be rare cases where that doesn't apply, but I can't think of any). China can't manage without selling its goods to the west (every garment I'm currently wearing was made in China). China couldn't survive without buying millions of tons of iron ore every year from Australia. Australia's economy depends on selling, among other things, millions of bottles of wine overseas (even though Aussie red wine is actually Ribena with bollocks), as well as that iron ore. Think of all those fiercely independent countries that would collapse if they couldn't export their oil and gas. There are few countries on the planet that could truly afford to stand alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 23 - 04:20 PM

i am not a supporter of true ireland independence that would mean leaving Europe, i have a lot of criticisms of the european empire, but despite some of the little englander, little scotlander mentality on this thread about small independent countries.
I consider true independence for ireland would be an economic disaster, and i bet we would still have to pay off the european debt., empirical capitalistas are not noted for their kindness

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 09:51 AM

These figures would suggest the situation is worse than you imagine. A good deal worse.


https://commodity.com/data/ireland/debt-clock/

However one should note that the figures are much improved on from 2013

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 09:13 AM

agriculture: 1.2% industry: 38.6%
services: 60.2% (2017 est.) So do you think rep of ireland could exist without europes support, bearing in mind it owes a massive debt which has not been paid back yet, and would still have to be paid back
if you do you are ill informed
In 2021, Ireland reached a balance of -9.59 billion euros. In ratio to population, this equals a new indebtedness of 1,906 euros per capita in Ireland in 2021. For comparison, the average debt per capita in the European Union in the same year was 1,787 euros.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 07:26 AM

Ireland is no longer a country heavily reliant on Agriculture. Agriculture together with fishing, forestry and mining makes up just 5% of Irish GDP and employ just 8% of the workforce.

Agriculture on it own contribute just 1% of GDP.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 05:20 AM

Promising noises from Northern Ireland, though it is being stressed that !we are not there yet". I do have hopes we will get there soon, and it will hinge on giving the DUP a face-saving way out, I suspect. As a rule, I am against ministers deciding things without involving Parliament, but this might be one of the cases where that is the best available solution.

Even more important, in a way, is that while a express lane/red-and-green lane or whatever has been suggested by both sides, that hinges on both sides trusting the other to police their side of things properly. That we may be gradually building that level of trust after Johnson and co is a very welcome sign.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 04:21 AM

from the house of commons library, if you are genuinely intersted it is available for download .... Steve Shaw
Research Briefing
Published Tuesday, 10 January, 2023

    Research Briefing
    Devolution
    Elections
    Government
    House of Commons
    International law
    Monarchy
    Parliament

    David Torrance

A briefing paper on the legal issues surrounding a Scottish independence referendum

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:53 AM

New Zealand has been successful as an independent farming country because it has an ideal climate for farming beef cattle and sheep do not have to be kept inside they can graze on grass 90 to 100 percent of the time, i suppose somebody will suggest that the north and south islands declare independence from one another, that would be truly daft.

Scotland will not vote for independence they might vote for effective home rule under europe, god help the uk then.
The Republic of Finland and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) have a close relationship. Finland is one of six members of the European Union that are not members of NATO. Finland has had formal relations with NATO since 1994, when it joined the Partnership for Peace programme.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:46 AM

Scotland would have to join the european empire, does the act of union allow it? IT WOULD BE LIKE BREXIT A COMPLETE DISASTER UNLESS THEY WERE UNDER EUROPEAN RULE,that is not independence

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:43 AM

if ireland left the EU it would be a financial disaster for the farming community and the majority of people, they would have to join the commonwealth, they could not survive on their own

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:39 AM

Norway has been a rare example because it used its oil revenue wisely.

european countries inside the EU are not independent they benefit from the european empire, any countries inside the EU are not independent they get financial assistance from europe

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:36 AM

ireland is part of Europe it is not trult independent effectively it has home rule, the farming is heavily subsidised by europe. n

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 23 - 03:18 AM

Well I'm not letting you rule out EU countries! Each one has its own independent political and legislative structure, just as we did. So good examples would be Denmark, Ireland and non-EU New Zealand, each of which has a population very similar to that of Scotland (Denmark slightly higher, the others slightly lower). Finland has a population almost identical with that of Scotland, as does Norway. Iceland, less than a tenth! Plenty more in Europe but that'll do for now.